NUMBER OF LINES: 999 001=Usr:0 Null User 06/30/87 20:34 Msg:0 Call:0 Lines:19 1$If you are in need of help, you need but ask... 2$************************* INSTALLED: 18 JUL 89 *************************** 3$Welcome to BWMS II (BackWater Message System II) Mike Day System operator 4$************************************************************************** 5$GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS II IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION 6$ PLACED ON THIS SYSTEM. 7$BWMS II was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS II is a privately 8$owned and operated system which is currently open for use by the general 9$public. No restrictions are placed on the use of the system. As the 10$system is privately owned, I retain the right to remove any and all 11$messages which I may find offensive. Because of the limited size of the 12$system, it will be periodically purged of messages (only 999 lines of data 13$can be saved). To leave a message, type 'ENTER'. Use ctrl/C to get out 14$the ENTER mode. The message is automatically stored. If after entering 15$the message you find you made a mistake, use the replace command to 16$replace the line. To exit from the system, type 'BYE' then hang up. 17$Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system. 18$************************************************************************** 19$ 002=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY 07/18/89 23:06 Msg:4129 Call:22673 Lines:4 20 In the world there are only two tragedies. 21 One is not getting what one wants, and the other is getting it. 22 -- Oscar Wilde 23 ************************************************************************* 003=Usr:70 Kurfur Redlig 07/18/89 23:25 Msg:4130 Call:22674 Lines:15 24 KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKurfur Redlig | Well golly gee! Look where I am!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 25 26 Hi everyone. It looks like I get to start off this disk. It too bad, 27 though, because I can't think of anything to really write about. Now if I 28 were an egotistical boor, I would probably be gloating about being at the 29 top, saying such things as "I'M AT THE TOP!!! I'M AT THE TOP!!! I'M AT THE 30 TOP!!!". However, I am feeling it necessary to act humble right now, so I 31 won't. 32 33 OLO 34 \___/ 35 U 36 37 KKKKKKKurfur Redlig | Second up is still not the top!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 38 004=Usr:498 Hagbard Celine , 07/19/89 00:24 Msg:4131 Call:22677 Lines:77 39 {} 40 41 Society itself is shared fiction that is brought about by 42 agreements made within a majority of people. If every single person 43 in the city of Portland were to stop for the moment and understand 44 just how artificial "society" is, you would either see 1) total 45 chaos and a loss of respect for humanity, or 2) complete, compromising 46 harmony and understanding between people of all ages, races, creeds, 47 religions, and sexes. When you "break the law" by speeding 10 miles 48 an hour over the "speed limit", you didn't break an actual PHYSICAL 49 law, you simply conficted with the shared fiction that so many have 50 a belief in. However, by going so fast, you must be more acountable 51 for your actions and driving (you assume a larger responsibility). 52 But when s/he in that blue uniform and white car pulls you over 53 and they step out, armed with a weapon, and "cite" you by removing 54 priviledges (you are ticketed for money), then you can see the effect 55 of a fiction upon the mind of another human beside yourself. It's just 56 not the same as trying to go faster than the speed of light - because 57 the "law" (structure and composition of the shared fiction) can 58 be changed by concensus, whereas you can not physically go faster 59 than light because you will die ('you be squished like a 60 cockroach beneed de foot'), and that you have no power to 61 change. Mao was right - power DOES come from the barrel of 62 a gun, but only because you accept the concept. You can, 63 of course, not accept this and risk death, but you also stand 64 a chance at changing the "society" in which you live - and 65 effectively re-writting the rules of the fiction that 66 most come to believe. China could be a totally democratic nation 67 in less than 2 days, as the concensus is there, but the ideaology 68 has been so engrained into their lives (don't rebel, serve the 69 state, ignore your needs) that they can NOT MUSTER A COMMON, 70 SHARED BELIEF. Which means, nothing will change until someone 71 risks death. But again, the fear of death is the beginning 72 of slavery (not my quote, but I do agree with it). So, they 73 will recieve whatever they put into it. I am NOT saying that 74 the students who are being executed are deserving of their actions - 75 moreover, I'm saying the the people of China have condemned them 76 by their own inactivity. 77 78 I just can't believe I wrote all of that mindless drivel. 79 80 Sometimes it is very frustrating to "bend" my own personal rules 81 to fit with that of society. I don't care for competition - 82 I just want to live my own life free of ethical hassles. Yet I 83 have changed so many "rules" and "understandings" within myself 84 that I'm not too sure about what I have become. 85 86 I've lost job opportunities because I'm a young white male. 87 People look at me and say "you can't work with female superiors 88 because young men at your age (18-23) are descriminating and 89 sexist towards their supervisor (who is female)". BullSh*t! My 90 curent supervisor is a 33-year-old white female, married, and 91 has a son. I have consoled with her about this matter (she is 92 aware of my job search), and she feels that I am quite exceptional 93 with my dealings in this matter, and that I am NOT a "chauvanist 94 male pig". Sometimes, I wonder if life could be simpler and 95 direct without all of the pigsh*t of civilization. It's veru 96 (sp- very) tempting to just pack up and tell everything else to 97 f*ck off. If I did that, I would be arrested an thrown into 98 jail for living on county/state/federal property. My crime? 99 Golly Gee, I just wanted to either make a living and be left 100 alone, or live my life as I please outside of civilization. 101 How can you play "The Game" when you can't even participate? 102 And the "rules" state that you can't drop out? So what do 103 I do, rot every day where I sit? And that's just about 104 all I can do. It reminds me of a short poem I've read, a real 105 favorite of mine when things like this happen: 106 107 Look! Here's a ladder! 108 C'mon, let's climb! 109 The first rung is yours- 110 The rest are mine. 111 112 Hagbard Celine, beaten by the System and forced into servitude. 113 114 {} 115 005=Usr:355 DAN QUALE 07/19/89 11:31 Msg:4132 Call:22683 Lines:4 116 HOW MUCH WOOD COULD A WOOD CHUCK CUM IF A WOULD CHUCK COULD CUM ON WOULD??? 117 ::::::::::DAN QUALE:::::::::::::::: 118 119 006=Usr:70 Kurfur Redlig 07/19/89 19:14 Msg:4133 Call:22701 Lines:2 120 wouldn't that be "Dan Qualude"? :) 121 007=Usr:343 black art 07/19/89 20:20 Msg:4134 Call:22703 Lines:3 122 How much wood could a wood chuck up-chuck, if a woodchuck could up-chuck wood? 123 - Ed Meese 124 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 008=Usr:84 Michael Miller j 07/19/89 21:38 Msg:4135 Call:22704 Lines:21 125 &*&*&*&*`s 126 127 Hagbard, It all boils down to that old and overused saying "Lifes a bitch." 128 129 To live a life that has a minimum amount of hypocrisy etc would be very 130 hard. Few can do it, and as you surmise, it would require the removal of 131 oneself from sociaty at large. This is a difficult decision, but one 132 that some people make. For me this is really not an option, as I value 133 the company of others to much. This does not mean that you cannot 134 live atleast somthing approaching a 'moral' life. 135 136 It's really hard to explain the way it all works, even if you think you 137 have some sort of a grasp. I guess that's why nobody has done a cool 138 and concise explanation. Most religions are 139 just half assed atempts. 140 141 Onward and downward. 142 143 An Astral Dreamer 144 &*&*&*&*`s 145 009=Usr:70 Kurfur Redlig 07/19/89 22:17 Msg:4136 Call:22706 Lines:41 146 KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKurfur Redlig | Reality! Who needs it?????????????????? 147 148 I think the main problem that you're trying to deal with, Hagbard, is 149 whether or not humanity can be considered a rational species. Are people 150 genetically greedy and violent, or are they really peaceful at heart, 151 with society being the main factor causing all the problems in life? 152 Do are people so ingrained in the ways that they see around them, or can 153 they really face the truth of a matter with an open mind and no 154 preconceptions? 155 Of course, these questions can never be answered, because society is 156 nothing more than the people in it, and people think differently. 157 Some people are not prejudiced, open minded, and otherwise unset, and 158 others are exactly the opposite. I think, however, that most of the 159 people around are of the second type though. The problem is that it 160 is the majority of the people that make a society, and if the majority 161 is one which demands conformity, the society demands conformaty as well. 162 Any society that demands conformity creates people that conform, who in 163 turn demand conformity themselves, thus ingraining the society at large 164 even more. It is an unfortunate spiral, but one that exhists nonetheless. 165 The only hope for really original people is to find some happy medium 166 between total rebellion (thereby opening oneself for punishment by 167 the majority) or conformity (thereby losing oneself). Escape is possible 168 (to a limited extent), but not very likely. My advice basically that of 169 "to thine own self, be true" to which I usually add "f*ck the rest. What 170 do they know? 171 172 As to being arrested for occupying federal lands, it is possible still 173 to claim land in various states for a certain fee (I think about $20). 174 This does show how our society operates though, to a certain extent. 175 You have to pay the government a certain amount to use and hold (does 176 anyone truly "own" anything?) land which originally belongs to the 177 public that the government represents, when the public could probably 178 care less whether or not you're on its land anyways (especially 179 since the public has to get the permission of the government that 180 represents its permission to use the land too). 181 182 KKKKKKKKKKKKurfur Redlig | Kill them all and let God sort them out!!!!!!!! 183 184 So you don't want to go through 1.5 marriages, own 1.25 televisions and 185 have 2.5 children? Why not? 186 010=Usr:4 Milchar 07/19/89 23:23 Msg:4137 Call:22707 Lines:5 187 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 188 Because it's the fractions that get messy. I mean, the extra .25 TV would 189 just spark and smoke, causing a fire hazard. And I'll refrain from 190 commenting on the mess caused by the .5 child. 191 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Milch +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 011=Usr:33 Mike Stanfill 07/20/89 15:42 Msg:4138 Call:22724 Lines:34 192 /*/*/*/*/*/*/* 193 194 to M: I agree with your idea that evolution does not imply improvement, 195 and that things which have evolved are not necessarily better than 196 their predecessors, however... (in my very best Capt. Kirk voice) 197 "Ummm, I have a question..." 198 199 if... 200 > As always, right and wrong depend only upon the current belief of 201 > what is right and what is wrong. What is right and what is wrong changes 202 > with time and with the people's beliefs. 203 204 what is the meaning of... 205 >Rightness or wrongness has never been attributed to 206 >evolution. That is a human reaction in an attempt to try to use the 207 >concept of evolution as validity for existance. This is what Hitler 208 >did and it rings the same way in your statement. 209 210 Under the definition of right and wrong you gave this seems to mean: 211 212 "At no time in history has the predominant belief attributed rightness 213 or wrongness to evolution. To do so is to react in a manner typefying 214 humans and to attempt to show that one's existance is 'right' by the 215 fact that one has evolved, instead of basing one's worth on the current 216 opinion of society. A former world leader (currently believed to be 217 wrong) did this, and your statement suggests that you also do so, 218 and are therefore wrong." 219 220 Is this what you meant? Can society call itself 'right'? 221 _ 222 "It's too bad that whole families have been torn /#) 223 apart by something as simple as wild dogs." n n n (#/ 224 -Jack Handey / ~~~ ~~~ \/ 225 /*/*/*/*/*/*/* -swob (a Self-Willed Orange Blancmange) /___/___\___\ 012=Usr:286 Jeff Marten 07/21/89 00:15 Msg:4139 Call:22736 Lines:45 226 227 228 {+}{+}{+}{+} 229 230 The Beaverton Chamber of Commerce has asked the contributors 231 to Backwater Message Service II to help them with a very 232 special task. 233 234 Many communities in Washington County now have lovely carved 235 wooden signs on major highways greeting visitors with a 236  quaint and cheerful slogan. 237 238 The City of Beaverton would like to ask your help in choosing 239 a slogan that best describes the special magic that is 240 BEAVERTON ! 241 242 243 BEAVERTON 244 Home of the Semi-Annual Left Turn Arrow 245 246 BEAVERTON 247 Gateway To Aloha 248 249 BEAVERTON 250 The Lil' Town That TEK Built 251 252 BEAVERTON 253 Satan's Traffic Grid 254 255 BEAVERTON 256 Teen Breeding Ground for the Great Northwest 257 258 BEAVERTON 259 Gresham West 260 261 BEAVERTON 262 Malltown, U S A 263 264 265 -+|[ ThingFish ]|+- 266 How Can You Have Any Pudding If You Don't Eat Your Meat ? 267 268 269 {+}{+}{+}{+} 270 013=Usr:322 Stray Cat 07/21/89 05:53 Msg:4140 Call:22739 Lines:3 271 The Groundwork for all faith is human woe ... He had a lover's quarrel 272 with the world. 273 014=Usr:287 Ralph Steadman 07/21/89 14:51 Msg:4141 Call:22747 Lines:79 274 696969696969 275 APn 07/15/89 Copyright, 1989. The Associated Press. All rights reserved. 276 277 NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) -- Vice President Dan Quayle mistakenly credited a moo 278 landing to a congressman convicted of a sex charge, amusing a crowd of Young 279 Republicans at the group's national convention Saturday. 280 "This next Thursday, July 20th, will be an historic date for America as 281 America celebrates the 20th anniversary of Neil Armstrong and Buz Lukens walkin 282 on the moon," Quayle said. 283 He meant to say Edwin "Buzz" Aldrin, who followed Armstrong to become the 284 second person to walk on the moon on the Apollo 11 mission. 285 Donald "Buz" Lukens, a Republican congressman from Ohio, was convicted in Ma 286 of having sex with a 16-year-old girl. 287 Lukens, 58, was sentenced last month in Columbus to 30 days in jail and fine 288 $500 on the misdemeanor charge of contributing to the unruliness of a minor. He 289 is free on bond pending appeal. 290 Quayle, who spoke from index cards during remarks at the Nashville Conventio 291 Center, appeared to realize his mistake after the crowd began laughing at the 292 reference to Lukens. The vice president did not correct himself but did exchang 293 glances with his wife, Marilyn, who was also on the stage. 294 GOP Chairman Lee Atwater said he decided not to mention the gaffe when he 295 spoke to Quayle later, but the vice president brought it up. 296 "He said, `Buz Lukens, oooh,"' Atwater said, grimacing in imitation of 297 Quayle. 298 The convention of about 1,200 Young Republicans began Friday and ends Sunday 299 300 APn 07/19/89. The Associated Press. All rights reserved. 301 By RITA BEAMISH Associated Press Writer 302 WASHINGTON (AP) -- Just as Dan Quayle was settling comfortably into the vice 303 presidency, several fellows who helped put him there -- campaign advisers 304 borrowed from the Reagan entourage -- have provoked anger in the White House by 305 painting an unflattering portrait of his candidacy. 306 The old stories about Quayle being a lightweight, a foot-in-mouth campaigner 307 and a neophyte not up to the job he sought are revived in a new book, "Whose 308 Broad Stripes and Bright Stars? The Trivial Pursuit of the Presidency 1988," by 309 political columnists Jules Witcover and Jack Germond. 310 Derisive comments about Quayle's abilities come not from Democratic critics, 311 but from the GOP stable of advisers the Bush campaign assigned to help manage 312 Quayle -- among them political pros Stuart Spencer, Joseph Canzeri and James 313 Lake, all former advisers to President Reagan. 314 Their caustic assessments of Quayle's capabilities and their problems in 315 running his campaign paint a picture of a candidate who needed protection from 316 doing himself political harm. 317 Canzeri told the authors that Quayle "was like a kid. Ask him to turn off a 318 light, and by the time he gets to the switch, he's forgotten what he went for." 319 Canzeri said the handlers "knew we were going to have to script him." 320 Sometimes, the advisers said, Quayle exasperated and confounded them by 321 refusing to follow the script. 322 The book quotes Spencer as saying that he let Quayle scrap a prepared defens 323 speech in Chicago once and deliver his own rambling version so that the vice 324 presidential candidate would foul up publicly "and then we'll own him again." 325 Lake told of a time when "I just pushed him aside," to keep Quayle from 326 answering questions about his Vietnam-era National Guard service at a time when 327 it would have overshadowed George Bush's convention acceptance speech. 328 Longtime GOP consultant Ed Rollins, a former White House political director, 329 said any candid group of political people in town would have told the Bush team 330 that Quayle was a lightweight and should not be vice president. 331 President Bush is not happy about the characterizations. 332 "I find it offensive. I don't like it," he told reporters Tuesday. "That's 333 the ugly side of politics." 334 Bush noted Quayle has made two trips to Latin America for the administration 335 as well as heading the Space Council and contributing to Bush's morning staff 336 meetings. 337 "He's a good man and he deserves something better than a post-mortem kick in 338 the ... ankles," Bush said. 339 Ironically, the book comes out at a time when Quayle has received relatively 340 favorable portrayals in several media accounts. 341 Aside from an occasional gaffe -- he recently referred to moon-traveling 342 as riding in a car with his rear pressed against the side window. 343 Lee Atwater, Chairman of the Republican National Committee said, "It really 344 doesn't matter much how smart or competent J. Danforth Quayle may be, the 345 women voting the Republican ticket aren't too smart, and we expect them to vote 346 for him because he's cute. It's one of our steps to forcing a Republican 347 majority in the House of Representatives on the public. Besides most eligible 348 voters know the national elections have been fixed for years and know enough 349 not to vote. But I'm too tired to think right now, so please no more questions 350 351 696969696969696969 352 015=Usr:343 black art 07/22/89 20:06 Msg:4142 Call:22764 Lines:3 353 Not voting is not the answer. (They will just think you are appethetic.) 354 Vote no, "none of the above", "Mickey Mouse", Bill the Cat, or anyone else 355 that sounds fun. Remember: Voting just pisses them off!!! 016=Usr:70 Kurfur Redlig 07/22/89 20:52 Msg:4143 Call:22765 Lines:4 356 357 In the last two elections I voted for 'No Confidence' and 'Anarchy Now!' 358 Do they count? 359 017=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY 07/22/89 22:51 Msg:4144 Call:22771 Lines:52 360 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 361 Jack, 362 You've restated what I said differently. I'm not sure what you are saying 363 in it though since I don't know if you mean to have concepts hidden between 364 the lines. So let me phrase it in my own way; 365 Those who have presented the concept of evolution and thereby present the 366 defintion of evolution never applied the concept of right or wrong to the 367 concept of evolution. Those who are either unfamilur with the concept or 368 simply wish to use it to justify their own actions have applied the concept 369 of "rightness" to it in relation to their own actions. One in particular 370 (Hitler) who is currently considered "wrong" used the concept of evolution 371 as a mechanism to support the rightness of his actions. To do so is 372 not a valid statement. It is like saying a rock is right or wrong. 373 How can a rock have a moral right or wrong concept attached to it's 374 existance?" It is incorrect to apply a moral judgment to the existance 375 of a thing. It exists. It is actions that we apply moral definitions to. 376 377 "Can a society call itself 'right'?" Certainly. A society is but a 378 composite of actions which are defined as being either right or wrong. 379 Society is but a collection of rules regarding actions. When we do 380 something that society defines as being wrong, then we are considered 381 wrong and punished. When we do something considered right, then we are 382 applauded. 383 The defintions by which society operates change as the beliefs of 384 those in that society change. Consider that at one time society 385 considered it accetable to own other people (slaves). That belief 386 has changed. It is no longer acceptable as a belief (though it is still 387 practiced in other forms which superficially hide that it is slavery). 388 In some societies it is not only considered accetable to eat people, 389 but in some cases it is considered an honerable thing to do. Yet 390 in the current general belief system of the majority of the societies 391 in the world it is considered a horibly wrong thing to do. Many have 392 even gone so far as to state that it is an instinct not to want to eat 393 people. There is more than adquate evidence though to disprove that. 394 It is rather a learned reaction. We are told from birth that it is wrong. 395 It is never brought forth that it might be "right". Even when we discuss 396 the societies that practic canibalism we do so with the pointed statement 397 of how wrong and barbaric they are. 398 Does this mean that I'm going to have a nice big helping of mother-in-law 399 tonight? No, I'm throughly trained by the society I live in to find that 400 concept to be revolting. I do however recognise that it is a trained 401 response. 402 Is it OK to kill someone? The first thing we say is, no. But what if it is 403 in self defense? Then we say, well, OK, self defense is OK. But what 404 about war? Is it OK to kill the enemy even though he may not be trying to 405 kill me perosnally? Well, yes it's OK, if he doesn't, one of his 406 countrymen might. You're fighting a nameless hord that are all the same. 407 We create rules to allow us to live with out collective beliefs, and 408 then warp them to deal with situations where the rules don't work 409 (is it any wonder that the soldiers themselves come out with a warped 410 view of the world?). 411 --------------------------- M --------------------------------------- 018=Usr:84 Michael Miller j 07/23/89 11:28 Msg:4145 Call:22778 Lines:19 412 &*&*&*&*`s 413 An interesting view M, and one I largly agree with. It is often interesting to 414 look at the compromises one makes. Why are these compromises neccasary? 415 Ussually it is because of an assumption we make about the world. Right or 416 wrong, these assumptions bind us to certain actions, and force us to 417 justify ourselves when we wish to break them. 418 ]It seems that to make any sort of assumption is to bind oneself to a 419 narrower path in life. This is not always bad, as it has allowed our specias 420 to be very succesfull. But this success can also be our defeat, because 421 we are rapidly eliminating all other forms of competition. At that point 422 what is left? Will we turn upon each other? Isn't this very thing happening 423 today? 424 425 Of course this competion is not a new thing, but it seems that in our 426 sociaty atleast it is being applied more and more to other people. 427 428 An Astral Dreamer 429 &*&*&*&*'s 430 019=Usr:277 Schizo 07/23/89 16:14 Msg:4146 Call:22782 Lines:13 431 !!! @!@! !!!! !! @@!! @@@ 432 What is right? what am I typing? How do you know what I want you to 433 think when you read this? How could you possibly understand what I am typing? 434 It's questions like this that prompt men to make silly rules that are usually 435 critisized by 99% of the world's population. The one question I havn't heard 436 the answer to yet is: What is the purpose of humanity? If we had some overall 437 goal in mind we could make rules that were much more logical than what we have 438 today (Globally). If our goal is to prove the most successful form of 439 government/economy by having wars every so often to prove which is better then 440 so be it, it's the will of the people. This doesn't sound like a very good 441 goal to me, but it does happen to be the one that the world seems to be 442 running on right now. 443 !!! @!@! !!!! !! @@!! @@@ 020=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY 07/23/89 20:49 Msg:4147 Call:22783 Lines:8 444 To above: Sounds like you need to take a course in comparative religon. 445 One of the primary purposes of religon is to answer the question "Why 446 am I here?" For some people they can find the answer in the belief system 447 presented by a particular religon. I personally have not been able to 448 accept the belief systems presented because it requires acceptance of 449 a belief system about theworld that goes counter to my own. It does 450 however provide the answer for some people. 451 ---------------------------------- M -------------------------------------- 021=Usr:219 Friar Mossback 07/23/89 23:21 Msg:4148 Call:22786 Lines:33 452 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 453 The absolute question. "Why am I here." 454 It really can't be answered with logic or reasoning, Ayn Rand aside, nor 455 can faith be the only answer. I can have faith all I want about something 456 that is not apparent, but if I feel a plane will fly when it has exceeded 457 the critical angle of attack for the wing, then no faith will keep me in 458 the sky. 459 Religion must be logical, internally at least. You can have magic, or 460 miracles, but they must be consistent. You can't say god is all good and 461 then say god is all powerful and then have a devil or d'evil about. Those 462 concepts are internally inconsistent. 463 To say that god is just and merciful is possible, but then we have to 464 redefine our concepts of justness and mercy. It might be a lot easier if 465 we made god less than all powerful. 466 Religion does provide hope. That is good. But it also provides hatred, 467 more burning than any nationalism has ever been. Witness the hatred of 468 the muslims for all that is not islamic. See the fundamentalist christians 469 rail against the homosexual community, saying AIDS is god's punishment. See 470 the catholic church brand as permanent sinners those who would perform a 471 surgical procedure. 472 It is easier for a religion to thrive amidst poverty and grief. When a 473 person's belly is empty, he hears any voice that can help. For a time. 474 When the help is not forthcoming, the hope turns to hatred, just as fervent. 475 It may take time, generations even, but it does happen. 476 It is only through self awareness and enlightenment that we can see what 477 a mess we have made of this world, and only then can we realize that it 478 was ours to mess up. We can have others. We can try again. Perhaps the 479 next time we will try the world with no pain a friend of ours wishes for. 480 Perhaps the one where we can all fly, that I wish for. Or maybe another one 481 just like this one that we can do better this time. 482 I know, just ramblings of a deranged man, but even this has its logic. 483 [][][][][][][][][][][][][] Friar [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 484 022=Usr:277 Schizo 07/24/89 00:45 Msg:4149 Call:22789 Lines:5 485 !!! @!@! !!!! !! @@!! @@@ 486 Merry Christmas! Ho ho ho and all that feces. 487 Now imagine that in the Southern Hemisphere Christmas actually does come 488 in the middle of Summer! 489 !!! @!@! !!!! !! @@!! @@@ 023=Usr:84 Michael Miller j 07/24/89 13:09 Msg:4150 Call:22796 Lines:18 490 &*&*&*&*'s 491 John Dalmas writes some rather cosmic/interesting books in the sci-fi/fantasy 492 field, must reads. 493 494 As to why we are here, I would say that we will probably never really know. It 495 is possible that if we exist after death, that the answer is there, but I 496 suspect that even if there is 'life' after death, we will still not have the 497 answer. It seems to me that the world works on many different levels, and 498 under different scales, things look very different. Why should the rest of 499 the universe be any different? Perhaps those above us quest for the meaning 500 of life, wondering why they are there, and what their purpose is. And perhaps 501 beyond them is another group of beings, etc. 502 503 Infinity. 504 505 An Astral Dreamer 506 &*&*&*&*'s 507 024=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY 07/24/89 21:57 Msg:4151 Call:22809 Lines:39 508 Many Eastern religons believe in reincarnation, in particular tied to 509 a increasing spiritual assendance. Usually going through stages of 510 life as various forms of animals. This is also why they often revere 511 animals. After all, it could very well be an incarnation of your 512 one of your future desendants. 513 This incarnation bit expands beyond just being human. There are usually 514 spiritual levels beyond just the human level. The general leason taught 515 seems to be that we are here to learn how to be a better individual. 516 If you screw up, you get sent back to a lower life form for remedial 517 training. when you do good you get to advance to the next level of life. 518 519 Even so, I've generally not seen a religon state the overall meaning of 520 existance. They tend to concentrate on the here and now because that they 521 can give answers to. "Your here to promote the glory of God, etc..." 522 But once you die, you go to Heaven and live happily ever after 523 (assuming you've been a good little boy or girl). That is usually a 524 recurrent theme in all religons. But they never really cover what 525 "happily ever after" is. When pressed the best you get is "you'll 526 know when you get there." 527 Of course the future is something that most people will accept 528 as being unknown when stated in the right way, and the religous 529 organizations have had thousands of years to learn how to say it. 530 It is the here and now that mostpeople want answers to. 531 One of the reasons people tend to get caught up in religon after 532 some personal disaster is because the first reaction is "why me? What 533 I do to deserve this?" And the religous organization is right there with 534 the answer, "because you are a sinful person and God is teaching you a 535 leason, but if you accept my belief system He will forgive you and 536 you will be saved." Stated often enough, and having the lack of any 537 other explaination, some people will accept this and take the belief system 538 as their own. For some people this actually works, it pulls them out 539 of a downward self destructive spiral. That is the one thing a religon is 540 good for, throwing out a lifeline to pull in someone who needs an 541 anchor of suppor tin their life. The problem is that this is also the 542 negative aspect since the religon is unwilling to let go when the person 543 has out grown the need for that support, so they use a multitude of 544 brainwashing technics to insure that the person is unable to break 545 away from the tight circular thought patterns they set up. 546 --------------------------------- M ------------------------------------- 025=Usr:33 Mike Stanfill 07/24/89 23:15 Msg:4152 Call:22813 Lines:62 547 /*/*/*/*/*/*/* 548 The following is some thoughts on the discussion up to the "comparative 549 religion" point... I'm gonna have to think about the rest of this for a 550 while... 551 /*/*/*/*/*/*/* 552 M: 553 Oops, (should have made this more clear) I'm not Jack, he's just the 554 one who wrote the quote at the end of the article. 555 I tried my best to keep my own ideas out of the paraphrase. I was 556 attempting to construct an example to illustrate why I disagreed with the 557 first statement. I thought it best to use something from the article 558 (which you already accept as true) rather than to make up something which 559 you may or may not agree with. 560 I guess I see right and wrong as something that exists already, and 561 that people are trying to figure out, instead of being something they 562 define for themselves. I think that's why people have and have had 563 different views of what is right, and will continue to update their 564 views as they learn more about morality. 565 I don't think the differing answers to the question of killing shows 566 that we have taken a rule and kludged it. I think it is more like three 567 views of the same thing. If you ask whether 2+2=11, my first answer is 568 no, but if you say, "what if the numbering system is ternary?" then I say 569 yes. The answer has changed, not because the first answer was wrong 570 within its context, but because the context has changed. We haven't 571 "warped" addition to suit our purposes, we have uncovered another aspect 572 of mathematics. 573 574 AD: 575 I suppose the only reason we make assumptions or compromises is 576 that we deem them necessary or valuable. We bind ourselves to certain 577 actions because we feel they are better than other actions. When we 578 wish to do something that would counter one or more of our assumptions, 579 we must logically justify it. I think this is a good thing. Otherwise 580 we become hypocritical. Even if people define their own moralities (and 581 everyone *does* have to work with what they've got), hypocrisy is wrong. 582 583 SCHIZO (nice Morse): 584 585 I like Cicero better: "Men were brought into existance for the sake 586 of men that they might do one another good." 587 588 But you're right. I can say nothing about what anybody else is 589 thinking. I may think that their conclusion is wrong, but I can't say 590 they made an error in finding it, since I don't know their assumptions. 591 For all I know, the cannibals are doing what they think is the best 592 thing to do. This doesn't make it right to eat people, but it does 593 exempt them from fault in doing so. 594 595 M: I probably wouldn't go around looking at religions unless I felt some- 596 thing lacking in my beliefs. "This above all: to thine own self be 597 true." If you find fault with your belief system - remedy it! Maybe 598 you will find the remedy in adopting a new belief system. Maybe it 599 will come by changing your view of something. Whatever happens, you 600 will inevitably find a better truth than you had before, whether you 601 augment your beliefs or reject a portion of them. But if you find 602 nothing wrong with the system you have, I see no reason to change it. 603 604 "Too bad you can't buy a voodoo globe so that you could make the _ 605 Earth spin real fast and freak everybody out." /#) 606 -Jack Handey, "Deep Thoughts" n n n (#/ 607 / ~~~ ~~~ \/ 608 */*/*/*/*/*/*/ -swob (a Self-Willed Orange Blancmange) /___/____\__\ 026=Usr:286 Jeff Marten 07/25/89 02:16 Msg:4153 Call:22818 Lines:24 609 610 611 {+}{+}{+}{+} 612 613 Hoo Boy...Let's lighten this up..... 614 F I S H N E W S 615 Dateline : Rashneesheland 616 617 { Long since let loose from the hoosegow, sprung from the 618 cooler and out of the pokey, Ma Anan Sheela's been out of 619 jail long enough to get ready for more trouble. Those wacky 620 gurus are gassin' up the Lear Jets and gettin' set for 621 another round of Hindu highjinx. Better haul that homestead 622 off the real estate listings and lay low 'cos the robed 623 Rashneeshees are lookin' for a ranch in YOUR town and they 624 wanna poke YOU in the butt with a syringe full of the 625 Bagwan's special salad dressing. Run for your lives ! 626 627 -+|[ ThingFish ]|+- 628 Gimme That Ole Time Religion 629 630 631 {+}{+}{+}{+} 632 027=Usr:116 Michael Gray 07/25/89 04:01 Msg:4154 Call:22819 Lines:8 633 __________________________________________________ 634 swob: This might be old news, but could you tell 635 this recently returned BW-vet what the 636 graphic illustration is that appends your 637 entries? I've tried and can't figure it. 638 ______________________________________________mg__ 639@ 640@ 028=Usr:287 Ralph Steadman 07/25/89 10:49 Msg:4155 Call:22822 Lines:100 641 696969696969 642 SMOKE, SMOKE, SMOKE THAT CIGARETTE--`DOONESBURY' DRAWS SMOKERS:-7/ 643 In a June 9 "Doonesbury" strip, cartoonist Gary Trudeau tweaked the 644 tobacco industry for using ads that he says urge kids to smoke. His cartoon 645 character, "Mr. Butts," points to a coupon from the Tobacco Institute for free 646 cigarettes for the underaged. In just one week, the cigarette manufacturer's 647 association has gotten 200 of the coupons, many filled out by adolescents. 648 Lee Salem, editorial director for Universal Press Syndicate that sells 649 "Doonesbury," says he's surprised by the response a July 9 strip on cigarette 650 advertising received when hundreds of kids sent in coupons for free cigarette 651 samples. But it proves Trudeau's point, he says. It's an example of the 652 problem Trudeau sought to expose: Children are vulnerable to cigarette 653 advertising. 654 The Tobacco Institute is upset about the free-sample requests youngsters 655 are making in response to a June 9 "Doonesbury" strip. The institute doesn't 656 distribute cigarettes, says spokesperson Brennan Dawson. Moreover, the 657 industry does not advocate children smoking. The Institute is mailing each 658 respondent a brochure that says smoking should remain an adult custom. 659 TEENS LIGHT UP BY EXAMPLE:-7/25/89 660 Teenagers who smoke start because they see their friends and parents 661 lighting up, a new survey found. Response Research of Chicago questioned more 662 than 1,000 teens who smoked, and found peer and parental example was the main 663 reason they started smoking. Average age of first-time smokers: 13. Most of 664 the teens said they bought cigarettes over the counter, seldom using vending 665 machines. 666 Congress is considering legislation that would severely limit cigarette 667 advertising and limit the sale of cigarettes to minors. The House subcommittee 668 on Transportation and Hazardous Materials will begin hearing testimony Tuesday 669 on House Resolution 1250. Scheduled to testify: health officials, cigarette 670 manufacturers and industry experts. 671 672 HILLS DEFENDS LOBBYING PIERCE:-7/18/89 673 U.S. Trade Representative Carla Hills Monday defended lobbying ex-HUD 674 Secretary Samuel Pierce. Hills said she met with Pierce in 1985 after two HUD 675 officials refused to lift limits on a finance firm whose bad loans have cost 676 more than $500 million. "... I have never abused the use of access," Hills, 677 HUD secretary from 1975-77, told a House subcommittee investigating the HUD 678 scandalc. 679 FORMER HUD HONCHOS GAVE TO GOP:-7/24/89 680 Two former Housing and Urban Development officials who have been severely 681 criticized for allegedly using inside information to garner $130 million in 682 HUD housing contracts contributed heavily to the campaigns of key GOP 683 politicians. Recipients of $1,000-$2,000 include: Sens. John Danforth, R-Mo.; 684 John Heinz, R-Pa.; Robert Kasten, R-Wis.; Steve Symms, R-Idaho; and Alphonse 685 D'Amato, R-N.Y. 686 Department of Housing and Urban Development Secretary Jack Kemp's ill- 687 fated presidential campaign received funds from Philip Winn, a former HUD 688 official criticized for using inside information to garner contracts, reports 689 Gannett News Service. Kemp received $2,000 in campaign contributions from 690 Winn, a former undersecretary for housing and now ambassador to Switzerland. 691 HUD INVESTIGATION CRITICIZED:-7/25/89 692 Investigators in the HUD scandal attacked the Justice Department Monday 693 for not pubsuing its own investigation of fraud. "They're saying, `If any of 694 you catch a crook, we'll prosecute,' " said Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass. The 695 comments came after the department decided not to prosecute ex-HUD worker 696 Thomas Demery for his work for a charity whose donors included developers with 697 HUD business. 698 699 As Lee Atwater, chairman of the National Republican Committee said: "We'll 700 continue to federally subsidize the tobacco industry so they can hook the 701 young, then, we'll rip off HUD so they can sleep in the streets, so if the 702 lung cancer doesn't get them, pneumonia will. Then we'll spend the rest of the 703 country's resources on the B-2 and a trip to Mars. It is this kind of logic 704 and concern for the American public that will insure us a Republican majority 705 in the House of Representatives again." (Or actions to that effect) 706 707 AIR FORCE FLIES STEALTH:-7/18/89 708 The B-2 Stealth bomber completed what Air Force officials called a 709 "picture perfect" first flight from Edwards Air Force Base, Calif., Monday. 710 The price tag for each plane is about $530 million. Earlier tests had been 711 delayed until Monday due to a low fuel pressure reading. 712 Congress remains unconvinced about the B-2 "stealth" bomber despite 713 Monday's successful first flight of $530 million plane. The next showdown over 714 the B-2 will come later this month when the House votes on the 1990 defense 715 budget. Already, the House Armed Services Committee carved $800 million from 716 the Air Force's $4.7 billion B-2 request. 717 CONGRESS ADDRESSES B-2 MONEY:-7/25/89 718 Congress picks up debate Tuesday on a $305 billion defense bill that pits 719 military might against fiscal frugality. Even as the House and Senate 720 considered the measure Monday, President Bush and his deputies were lobbying 721 hard for the costly B-2 Stealth bomber. The radar-eluding aircraft's fate will 722 be known Wednesday, when the House votes to trim Bush's B-2 request or 723 mothball the program. 724 725 DEBATE - SPACE USA TODAY'S OPINION: 726 To be sure, earthly problems could use the money we'd spend in space. They 727 are reasons to keep the space program in perspective, somewhere between the 1 728 percent of our budget it uses now and the 4 percent at the peak of the Apollo 729 program. But they are not reasons to root ourselves to Earth. 730 OTHER VIEWS: 731 JOSEPH P. MARTINO, senior scientist at the University of Dayton Research 732 Institute: Twenty years ago, Neil Armstrong made "one giant leap for mankind." 733 Since then, manned space exploration has been one giant leap forward, two 734 giant leaps backward. What went wrong? In a word, NASA. 735 JULIANNE MALVEAUX, economist and writer: Where do we go from the moon? To 736 Mars? If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we eliminate hunger, cure 737 cancer or curb the spread of the fatal AIDS virus? These goals are as 738 attainable as a Mars walk or a space shuttle. 739 ..or maybe even more so.... 740 696969696969696969 029=Usr:70 Kurfur Redlig 07/25/89 12:54 Msg:4156 Call:22824 Lines:18 741 742 KKKKKKKKKKKKKurfur Redlig | Politicians run rampant! What else is new????? 743 744 Things just get better and better, don't they? Do you realize that most 745 of the advertisements put out by the tobacco industry are targeted (I do 746 mean *targeted* ) at people under the age of 14? I mean, who but a child 747 would be impressed by the camel adds stating "Smooth Character"? All 748 they are saying is "Smoke and you'll be cool" to the underaged. After 749 all, cigarrettes are killing off their old vict.. er customers, and they 750 need a new batch to continue ripping off. The average 13 year old 751 probably has a good 20 years ahead of him/her to throw away money on 752 cigarrettes before they finally kill him/her. 753 754 And to think that we actually give our tax money to companies that do 755 this sort of thing. 756 757 KKKKKKurfur Redlig | Doonesbury is right. Kids are in danger!!!!!!!!!!!!! 758 030=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY 07/25/89 20:12 Msg:4157 Call:22832 Lines:70 759 swob, 760 I'm not saying that you should go looking at other religons because you 761 need to change your belief system, rather you should look at them so 762 that you can better understand why they think the way they do. 763 I have my own belief system that I am comfortable with, but I also like 764 to observe other belief systems so that I can better understand where they 765 are coming from. The canibal thing is a good case in point. By our belief 766 system it is wrong. You even went so far as to state that "This doesn't 767 make it right to eat people, but it does exempt them from fault in doing so." 768 Yet if you were to study the culture, you would find that they think the 769 same thing of you for NOT eating a dead loved one. To them it would be 770 the same as not showing up for the funeral of a loved one. It shows that 771 you have no respect for the person. Thus if you did respct the person, 772 YOU would be wrong in their belief system to NOT eat the person. 773 In your belief system it is wrong to eat the person, in their belief 774 system it is worng NOT to eat the person. 775 I don't agree that right and wrong are something that exist outside 776 of the human mind. Morality is a distinctly human thing. We created it 777 to control our society. It's 'right' to do this, its 'wrong' to do that. 778 But, over the years what is defined as right and what is defined as wrong 779 has changed. The definition can even change within our own minds depending 780 on circumstance. I know one person at work who considers it very wrong 781 to pirate software...assuming it is software that can be traced back 782 to him. If it is coming to him, then that's another story. 783 Now some people would consider that to be hypocrisy (myself included), 784 yet to him it is perfectly acceptable beleif system. For him it is right. 785 Thus he has his own morality. I have no desire to change his belief 786 system, just as I have no desire for anyone else to demand that I change 787 my belief system. I do have concern as a friend that he understand the 788 consiquences of his actions in regard to society as a whole. If he 789 understands the major social belief system and is still happy working 790 with his own morality, then I'm happy. 791 I have no problem with people having a differnt belief system, in 792 fact, I desire it, it is what makes life what it is, interesting. It 793 allows us to grow. What bothers me is when others refuse to accept that 794 there ARE other belief systems that just might not match what they 795 believe. That they are not right or wrong, they are mearly different. 796 To paraphrase an old American hero, 'I ma not agree with what you 797 believe, but I'll defend to the death your right to believe it!" 798 There is one other aspect that does bother me though, and I will usually 799 point it out when I see it, it is when a person uses one line of thought 800 to dispute something counter to their belief system, and then turn right 801 around and use the very same argument to support their own belief system. 802 This is usually indicative that they are echoing someone elses thoughts 803 and have not really thought about it themselves. That's why I got into 804 this whole evolution debate in the first place, I saw an argument 805 about evolution being defined as being wrong to be used to support 806 a belief system, and then turning right around and using it to support 807 their own point. 808 I have a desire for people to truely understand the beliefs that they 809 promote and that it not just be an echo from someone else. If you support 810 it, then you should understand the basis behind it and why you support it. 811 That's why I like to know about other forms of belief, it allows me to 812 better understand my own belief system. Occasionally I will change a 813 portion of my beleif system because I have found new and better information, 814 and other times I am simply able to reconfirm and expand on what I do belief. 815 Seeking out information, questioning the structure of the current system 816 are how we grow. When you do not accept that it can change, then you 817 will not seek new information that might change the structure. When 818 youdo not seek new information you become locked in a stagnant 819 information system, and that means that you cannot grow. 820 But then, you see, that is a part of my own belief system. A part of 821 my own answer t the age old question of "why am I here?" Learning is 822 something that is important to me. Not just one specific field, in fact, 823 I tend to not get very deep in any field because it prevents me from 824 being able to learn in other areas. I am always seeking out new 825 information, learning about other ways of thinking, other ways of doing, 826 other ways of existing. The beauty is in the infinant variety. 827 I am at my worst when I am unable to think and learn. 828 --------------------------------- M ------------------------------------ 031=Usr:33 Mike Stanfill 07/26/89 01:39 Msg:4158 Call:22841 Lines:121 829 /*/*/*/*/*/*/*/* 830 > The cannibal thing is a good case in point. By our belief 831 > system it is wrong. You even went so far as to state that "This doesn't 832 > make it right to eat people, but it does exempt them from fault in doing so." 833 > Yet if you were to study the culture, you would find that they think the 834 > same thing of you for NOT eating a dead loved one. 835 836 I probably wasn't too clear here. What I meant by this is that they 837 *haven't done anything wrong* if they really think it is the right thing 838 to do. The "doesn't make it right" clause might be better phrased as 839 "doesn't make it right or wrong" since the *actual* morality of an act 840 has nothing to do with whether they are being hypocritical about their 841 beliefs. If they honour their dead by eating them, so be it! Indeed at 842 this point I would say it is a matter of taste (*please* pardon the pun) 843 rather than of morality, since it is the honouring that is the good thing. 844 845 (Incidentally, my first impression was that they killed people in order 846 to eat them, and considered this to be good. While this is an extreme 847 case, I would still say they were not to blame, so long as they were 848 going along with their beliefs.) 849 850 > I know one person at work who considers it very wrong 851 > to pirate software...assuming it is software that can be traced back 852 > to him. If it is coming to him, then that's another story. 853 854 So long as he *really* *believes* that this is good, and his system is 855 coherent, his motives are good. 856 857 > Now some people would consider that to be hypocrisy (myself included), 858 859 I wouldn't if he doesn't *know* that he's doing anything wrong - that 860 is, if he's not violating his own rules (or fails to see that he is 861 violating his own rules) - then he is not being hypocritical, however 862 wrong his actions are. This may seem like I'm splitting hairs, but I 863 think it has to be this way. Since I know essentially nothing of what 864 this person is thinking, nor how he is coming up with these actions, I 865 can't blame him for doing them. If I am to believe in an objective 866 reality of good and bad at all, I must *NOT* say that wrong acts 867 necessarily come from malicious thinking. It would be like saying all 868 arithmetic errors are directly attributable to the deliberate actions of 869 those who calculate them. Hypocrisy can only only be truly known by 870 the hypocrite himself. 871 872 > yet to him it is perfectly acceptable belief system. For him it is right. 873 874 Perhaps it is, I cannot say. 875 876 > I do have concern as a friend that he understand the 877 > consequences of his actions in regard to society as a whole. If he 878 > understands the major social belief system and is still happy working 879 > with his own morality, then I'm happy. 880 881 As a member of society, he is of course obliged to obey the laws of 882 society, and to face the consequences if he does not. I would say this 883 is quite separate from whatever internal system he is using to guide and 884 justify his actions. In short, I agree. 885 886 > I have no problem with people having a different belief system, in 887 > fact, I desire it, it is what makes life what it is, interesting. It 888 > allows us to grow. What bothers me is when others refuse to accept that 889 > there ARE other belief systems that just might not match what they 890 > believe. That they are not right or wrong, they are merely different. 891 892 I do hope I'm not the target of this paragraph. I've never said that 893 there aren't other systems of belief that don't match mine. To do so 894 would be to ignore the facts. I have only said that I believe there 895 to be *something* that is right, and I intend to try my best to find 896 it. Whether I have done that already is obviously something I don't 897 know (though my experience inclines me to believe I haven't fully). 898 If I find at some future date that what I think now is partially or 899 totally wrong (this occurs *daily* in small ways), then I will change 900 what I think. But to say that nothing is right or wrong at all seems 901 to me to refute any *REASON* to change. Why on earth should I wish to 902 exchange one illusion for another? Surely not for the sake of variety? 903 904 > Occasionally I will change a 905 > portion of my belief system because I have found new and better information, 906 > and other times I am simply able to reconfirm and expand on what I do belief. 907 > Seeking out information, questioning the structure of the current system 908 > are how we grow. 909 910 Now I'm confused. This looks a lot like what I just said. If there 911 is no such concept as 'right' or 'wrong', 'good' or 'bad'. Then what 912 does 'better information' mean besides 'more good' or 'more true' or 913 'more logical' information? What does 'grow' mean except 'progress to a 914 better (not simply different) state'? 915 916 > When you do not accept that it can change, then you 917 > will not seek new information that might change the structure. When 918 > you do not seek new information you become locked in a stagnant 919 > information system, and that means that you cannot grow. 920 921 Ah, I see your point; perhaps I have neglected some of the various 922 religions (though I have read a bit of Confucius, the Bible, Cicero, 923 etc.). I'm always reading new material, and have a general idea 924 of many religions, as well as where I "get off" as to their teachings, 925 and why. Often after the "get off" point, I simply stopped looking 926 there. It made sense to me (still does), but your point is well- 927 taken. At present I find no great logical opposition to my belief 928 system, so I haven't been looking at others, but simply trying to 929 expand on the one I have. I do hope I'm not stagnating by not 930 actively seeking a *completely* new belief system, but do realize 931 that I must feel that I am on the right track, or I wouldn't believe 932 what I do in the first place. My beliefs are constantly changing, 933 though there are some I have held for a very long time. 934 I do, however, agree that I should read more about religions in 935 order to *understand* them, if not believe them. I suppose we are 936 doing that with this discussion (because if you get down to it, any 937 belief system is a 'religion'). 938 But I wonder about your last statement. Obviously you see the 939 condtion of growth as more favourable that that of stagnation. 940 Or am I misunderstanding something? 941 942 > But then, you see, that is a part of my own belief system. A part of 943 > my own answer to the age old question of "why am I here?" Learning is 944 > something that is important to me. 945 946 Why? If not for the sake of truth? I'm not trying to badger here, 947 I'm truly interested in finding out why you find learning important. 948 949 > 032=Usr:33 Mike Stanfill 07/26/89 02:14 Msg:4159 Call:22842 Lines:21 950 > I am at my worst when I am unable to think and learn. 951 ^^^^^ ^^^^^ 952 Then you see value in truth, right? Perhaps we are not so different 953 as we might think. 954 955 "One thing that makes me believe in UFOs is, _ 956 sometimes I lose stuff." /#) 957 -Jack Handey, "Deep Thoughts" n n n (#/ 958 / ~~~ ~~~ \/ 959 */*/*/*/*/*/*/ -swob (a Self-Willed Orange Blancmange) /___/____\__\ 960 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 961 ohyes, to mg, the illustration at right is a Blancmange from the planet 962 Skyron in the Galaxy of Andromeda. It is a (rather obscure) reference 963 to an old Monty Python sketch in which the Blancmanges turn all the 964 inhabitants of England into Scotsmen (who promptly march off to their 965 homeland) so that they (the blancmanges) may win Wimbledon (hence the 966 tennis racquet). In the end the would-be-victor is eaten by Mr. and 967 Mrs. Samuel Brainsample, also from the planet Skyron, who are 968 fortunately accustomed to such large blancmanges. 969 */*/*/*/*/*/*/ 970 quick! somebody fill this disk! 033=Usr:70 Kurfur Redlig 07/26/89 10:24 Msg:4160 Call:22846 Lines:29 971 972 KKKKKKKKKurfur Redlig | Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!!!!!!!!! 973 974 swob, 975 I think you forgot to mention that the Blancmanges did not win 976 Wimbeldon, but rather, that it was won by Angus Podgorney, an unassuming 977 Scottish men's fashion designer (he manufactured kilts), thereby finally 978 defeating the plans of the pastries from outer space and becoming the 979 first Scottsman to win Wimbledon (as well as any other large international 980 sporting event). 981 982 In response to some of the previous comments in some of the previous 983 messages, I must state that a state of being good or bad does not 984 necessarily also mean better or worse. It was stated that for one to 985 believe in there being 'better information' they had to believe in the 986 concepts of good and bad. That is not necessarily true. Better 987 information could just mean that it was more accurate, from a more 988 reliable source, or made more sense. It does not have to be catagorized 989 as good because of its accuracy, only as more accurate than previous 990 data, and therefore better than previous data. Whether information is 991 'more gooder' or 'more badder' (for want of better expressions) depends 992 on what the reciever of the information wants to hear. If, during a war, 993 a general recieves information that half troops were dead, and there was 994 reliable evidence to back up this info (pictures etc.), while a wild 995 rumor earlier said that the general had only lost one eighth of his 996 troops, the info that half were dead would be regarded as better, but 997 'badder' information than the rumor. 998 I think I've rambled on enough for now. See you next disk! 999 KKKKKKKKKurfur Redlig | At the top and at the bottom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!