NUMBER OF LINES: 999 001=Usr:0 Null User 06/30/87 20:34 Msg:0 Call:0 Lines:19 1$If you are in need of help, you need but ask... 2$************************* INSTALLED: 9 JUL 89 **************************** 3$Welcome to BWMS II (BackWater Message System II) Mike Day System operator 4$************************************************************************** 5$GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS II IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION 6$ PLACED ON THIS SYSTEM. 7$BWMS II was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS II is a privately 8$owned and operated system which is currently open for use by the general 9$public. No restrictions are placed on the use of the system. As the 10$system is privately owned, I retain the right to remove any and all 11$messages which I may find offensive. Because of the limited size of the 12$system, it will be periodically purged of messages (only 999 lines of data 13$can be saved). To leave a message, type 'ENTER'. Use ctrl/C to get out 14$the ENTER mode. The message is automatically stored. If after entering 15$the message you find you made a mistake, use the replace command to 16$replace the line. To exit from the system, type 'BYE' then hang up. 17$Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system. 18$************************************************************************** 19$ 002=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY 07/09/89 22:19 Msg:4087 Call:22417 Lines:2 20 Life is far too short to live it in anger. 21 ********************************************************************** 003=Usr:13 voyeur 07/10/89 00:38 Msg:4088 Call:22421 Lines:1 22 ::::::O O:::::07/10/89:::::::::voyeur:::you know where:::::00:33::::::O O:::::: 004=Usr:666 james kolbet 07/10/89 09:14 Msg:4089 Call:22422 Lines:8 23 Wow! To actually think I made it to the top, or very near it. What a way to 24 start a Monday morning. Now onto business... 25 Friar, I'm sorry I forgot you, I didn't see you name as I was viewing all 26 the entries. Also VISION, I didn't mean to forget you either, though you made 27 no comment about it. Anyway, I'm back! 28 Hello.... and 'Bye! 29 Kaitlyn 30 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 005=Usr:84 Michael Miller j 07/10/89 09:44 Msg:4090 Call:22423 Lines:6 31 &*&*&*&*'s 32 I'm near the top! 33 34 An Astral Dreamer 35 &*&*&*&*'s 36 006=Usr:322 Stray Cat 07/10/89 10:19 Msg:4091 Call:22424 Lines:21 37 @_)$#^#$*@@+#$)^%$+@|!+_)#$)&^#@%$+@)#$(|@!@#$^!@#|!_+)$*@^!#$!+_#(^$+@#_$ 38 39 A few snewsworthy media items for 69/very very french man WO.E. et al: 40 41 You failed to mention one of your personal favorites in your recent tirade 42 of vintage vinyl. I note with some aMUSEment in Saturday's snoregonian 43 that France saw fit to sward Bob Dylan (after Matt Dillon not Dylan Thomas) 44 the "highest cultural honor France can bestow on an individual." 45 46 And snatchs from the snairwaves informed me that Portland is this very week 47 hosting a "vent" convention ... you know those acts where the audience is 48 supposed to figure out who's the biggest dummy -- the blockhead or the 49@"vent" (uhhh excuse me ... it would *SEEM* that *IN THEIR OPINION* they 50@"vent." Well, of course, the audience knows 51 "vent." Well, of course, the audience knows (uhhhhh 'scuse, the audience 52 would *IN THEIR OPINION* **SEEM** to **THINK** they *MIGHT* know) that, all 53 the time, it was just the "vent" talking outta both sides of his mouth. 54 55 56 @)#&$%#$&_@*(%@#$)&~!%@#(^~%#&)(*@!^$ ... aren't we having fun??? @#($*^@#$ 57 007=Usr:287 Ralph Steadman 07/10/89 15:54 Msg:4092 Call:22428 Lines:81 58 696969696969 59 60 VELMA MARTIN, Clever, Mo.: "Just once, I would like to see former 61 President Ronald Reagan take responsibility for the crimes and sleaze of his 62 administration. I am unwilling to accept his pat excuse, `I didn't know,' when 63 questioned about the activities of his administration ..." 64 (amen to that) 65 66 KARIN CIANO, Somerdale, N.J.: "I am surprised to discover that 67 Americans complain so loudly about having to subsidize day care for `other 68 people's kids.' If citizens of our kinder, gentler nation can't see beyond 69 their immediate interests, they might at least think ahead. These kids will be 70 taking care of us one day ..." 71 (can't wait for A Clockwork Orange: The Reality) 72 73 ANTIMATTER GETTING CLOSER:-7/10/89 74 Scientists searching for ways to harness the immense power of antimater 75 have some obstacles to overcome, but the technology is not far off, a recent 76 Rand Corp. report said. The report estimates that a gram of antimater would 77 cost about $1 billion to produce, and technologies to capture and store the 78 antimatter are still in the experimental stages. 79 80 SOLAR POWER GROWING: 81 More than 15,000 American homes are powered by photovoltaic technology, 82 The Futurist magazine reports in its July issue. Photovoltaic systems harness 83 the sun's energy and convert its heat into electricity. Currently, more than 84 70 utility companies are experimenting with improving the efficiency of 85 photovoltaic systems. 86 87 >>>> I WANT TO BE A HERO, JUST LIKE OLLIE NORTH...VA HOSPITAL CARE CRITICIZED: 88 The Vietnam Veterans of America group says service-connected disabled 89 veterans should be able to to seek health care from the provider of their 90 choice, with expenses to be covered by the Veterans Administration. Reasons: 91 Reports of excess mortality rates and poor quality of care in VA hospitals and 92 the revelation that doctors with criminal records are treating veterans. 93 94 (comments are now being included for the "terminal"-y stupid) 95 96 MOST DISLIKE ABORTION RULING:-7/10/89 97 Most don't like the Supreme Court's ruling giving states the right to 98 restrict abortions, say polls released Sunday. A Time-CNN poll says 61 percent 99 disagree with upholding Missouri's limits on abortions. Newsweek's poll shows 100 53 percent disapproved. Time-CNN talked to 504 adults Thursday; Newsweek, 751 101 Thursday and Friday. Margins: Time-CNN, plus or minus 4.5 points; Newsweek, 4 102 points. 103 104 As Lee Atwater, head of the Republican National Committee once said: "If we 105 can just force enough poor women to have their babies and put them up for 106 adoption by rich, white Republican all-American women, we can finally have a 107 majority in the House of Representatives again." 108 109 SUNUNU SAYS CHINA SALE KOSHER:-7/10/89 110 White House staff chief John Sununu is defending President Bush's decision 111 to sell Boeing commercial aircraft to China. Bush's move comes despite claims 112 the technology could be converted to military use and complaints about China's 113 treatment of student demonstrators. On Sunday's "Face the Nation" on CBS, 114 Sununu said the technology had been sold to China in the past. 115 He also displayed films, sent to China in 1970, showing how the US handled a 116 similar situation at Kent State Ohio. "If we could have just got more bullets 117 to the men, and got the tanks in there in time, we could have killed many more 118 than just the four students. But, we did offer advice to the Chinese so as you 119 can see, they handled in more effeciently than we did." 120 121 HUNGARIAN SOLVES PUZZLE:-7/10/89 122 A Hungarian mathematician has reportedly solved an age-old math problem. 123 Science News reports in its July 6 issue that Miklos Laczkovich can, in 124 theory, divide a circle into pieces and use them to build a perfect square - a 125 feat that puzzled math enthusiasts since the ancient Greeks. Laczkovich's 126 solution uses lots of pieces, though. Their number would be a 10 followed by 127 49 zeros. 128 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000. 129 130 SUMMER INS AND OUTS:-7/10/89 131 Bat-paraphernalia is hot. So is jewelry for men and babies. Canned food, 132 Garfield dolls that stick to car windows, and short hemlines are not. 133 Grassroots Research surveyed retailers and found anything to improve health or 134 increase convenience is also hot, as are products that will last. For fall, 135 microwave meat roasters and stop-smoking aids are expected to be big sellers. 136 137 696969696969696969 138 008=Usr:4 Milchar 07/10/89 18:31 Msg:4093 Call:22429 Lines:4 139 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 140 Random lurkus modius. AD has finished moving in, now all we have to 141 do is rearrange all this stuff. Hey, we need to set up a LAN now! :-) 142 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Milch +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 009=Usr:33 Mike Stanfill 07/10/89 22:59 Msg:4094 Call:22437 Lines:19 143 /*/*/*/*/*/*/* 144 Milch: Sorry about the Zmodem header, I let go of the mouse on the SEND 145 ZMODEM bar by instinct. About the quotes, Handey's were actually 146 published in the (sn)Oregonian a couple years ago, others I get 147 from books or songs or newspaper articles, or just pull them out 148 of the twisted wreckage of my brain. (brainstorms, y'kno) 149 p.s. can I join the LAN? 150 696969: Just what *DID* Atwater say? 151 152 "I support a Constitutional Amendment guaranteeing the right of every 153 American to burn videotapes of 'Freedom Rent-a-Car' commercials!" -me 154 155 "One thing kids like is to be tricked. For instance, I was going to 156 take my little nephew to Disneyland, but instead I drove him to an old 157 burned-out warehouse. 'Oh, no,' I said. 'Disneyland burned down.' 158 He cried and cried, but I think that deep down he thought it was a 159 pretty good joke. I started to drive over to the real Disneyland, but 160 it was getting pretty late." - Jack Handey, "Deep Thoughts" 161 */*/*/*/*/*/*/ -swob (A Self-Willed Orange Blancmange) 010=Usr:131 THE VISION 07/11/89 18:04 Msg:4095 Call:22447 Lines:10 162 _________________________________T_H_E__V_I_S_I_O_N_________________________ 163 164 Hey Kaitlyn! I never saw you on the other disk if that is what you implied 165 I just saw you at the near top of this disk for the first time in about 166 5 months (or so it seems). So how are you? how'd your grades turn out 167 anyway? Remember you had to go to study for finals?? well later for now 168 hope to see you back soon. bye 169 170 _*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_ 171 011=Usr:287 Ralph Steadman 07/11/89 19:33 Msg:4096 Call:22451 Lines:86 172 696969696969 173 GUN BILL STIRS CONTROVERSY:-7/11/89 174 Washington, D.C., officials, aiming to hold gun makers liable for 175 shootings, are prepared for a showdown on Capitol Hill. The City Council votes 176 Tuesday on a law that would permit shooting victims or their relatives to sue 177 handgun makers. The bill passed 8-4 in a preliminary vote. Congress has the 178 power to veto D.C. legislation. 179 mmmmmm 180 181 It seems fantastic that after all these years of flag-waving and chest-thumping 182 President George Herbert Walker Bush, of all people, would embrace Communism 183 with open arms and wads of cash. Especially in light of the CIA's blatant 184 efforts to punish Nicaragua for its form of Democratically elected government. 185 Nicaragua-NO Poland-Si !????! 186 WALESA PLANS EARFUL FOR BUSH:-7/11/89 187 Poland's Solidarity leader Lech Walesa plans to prod President Bush for 188 U.S. aid Tuesday. Bush pledged help to the communist country in a speech 189 Monday to the Polish parliament. Tuesday, Bush has lunch at Walesa's home and 190 tours the Lenin Shipyards where the trade union was born. Walesa intends to 191 say Poland "cannot wait any longer" for aid. 192 In a speech in Poland Monday, Bush said he would: Ask Western nations to 193 aid Eastern Europe, encouraging the World Bank to OK $325 million in loans; 194 ask Congress to OK $100 million to "capitalize and invigorate the Polish 195 private sector;" and $15 million to clean air and water in Krakow. The talk 196 came soon after the two countries rescheduled payments on $1 billion in loans. 197 President Bush visits the Lenin Shipyard Tuesday in Gdansk, but the future 198 of Solidarity's famed birthplace may depend on Polish-American millionaire and 199 Johnson & Johnson heiress Barbara Piasecka Johnson of Princeton, N.J. She has 200 offered to invest $100 million in return for a 55 percent share in a 201 corporation that would run the shipyard. The yard might be closed because it's 202 losing money. 203 Poles in the United States will send $400 million worth of goods to 204 friends and relatives in Poland this year - just as they did last year. The 205 most popular gifts are 2x4 boards, cement, pipe or almost any building 206 material, says Walter Kotaba, 46, whose 17-year-old company ships 360,000 207 packages a year from the United States to Poland. 208 209 meanwhile, back in the U.S.A. ... we don't have any money...or oil.... 210 211 SUPERFUND MONEY RUNNING OUT:-7/11/89 212 The federal Superfund program won't have enough money to clean up 213 abandoned hazardous waste sites in the year 2000, say 90 percent of American 214 and Canadian actuaries in a survey conducted by a consortium of actuaries. The 215 poll, to be discussed Tuesday at an actuarial conference in Toronto, asked 332 216 actuaries about environmental and health risks that will be posed by the year 217 2000. 218 By 2000, insurance companies will be unable to cover the costs of insured 219 claims associated with a catastrophic natural disaster, such as an earthquake, 220 say American and Canadian actuaries in a poll conducted by a consortium of 221 actuary associations. Given current premiums and coverage, 81 percent say 222 claims could not be met. More taxes would be needed to cover the costs, say 60 223 percent. 224 Fifty percent of American and Canadian actuaries polled by a group of 225 actuaries say chemical wastes are the environmental risk that will be the 226 greatest health hazard by 2000 and 64 percent said they would be the most 227 costly environmental risk. Also, 62 percent say employers will use workers' 228 compensation and health insurance to cover problems with sealed buildings and 229 lead in water. 230 WORLD'S OIL TO LAST DECADES:-7/11/89 231 While the world's oil supply should last well into the next century, 232 pollution caused by burning oil and coal must be reduced or eliminated, say 233 geologists attending the International Geological Congress in Washington, 234 D.C., this week. Climate experts generally agree that carbon dioxide and other 235 gasses being added to the atmosphere will eventually warm up the world. 236 The world's energy needs probably will require more than a 50 percent 237 increase in fossil fuel production during the next 50 years despite 238 conservation, John F. Bookout, retired Shell Oil Co. president, told the 239 International Geological Congress meeting in Washington, D.C. Technology will 240 buy time for development of new fuels, he said. 241 242 U.S. CHEERS MANDELA VISIT:-7/11/89 243 The United States welcomed the meeting between anti-apartheid leader 244 Nelson Mandela and South African President P.W. Botha, but called for the 245 release of the black dissident from prison. Mandela, imprisoned since 1962, 246 was visited by wife Winnie at his prison. Mandela, who cannot be quoted in 247 South Africa, is trying to release a statement that would explain his view of 248 the talks. 249 250 As Lee Atwater, head of the Republican National Committee said: "If we can 251 just send enough taxpayers' money to support the COMMUNIST government in 252 Poland, and spend enough taxpayers' money to overthrow the COMMUNIST 253 government in Nicaragua, the doublespeak will so confuse the masses that we 254 can finally achieve a Republican majority in the House again." 255 256 696969696969696969 257 012=Usr:347 COMMANDER MURDOC 07/12/89 19:19 Msg:4097 Call:22471 Lines:9 258 259 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 260 IT'S BEEN A WHILE, BUT IT'S NICE TO SEE THAT OF ALL THE SYSTEMS THAT 261 HAVE COME AND GONE IN THE PAST 5 YEARS BACKWATER IS STILL HERE. AND 262 IT KEEPS IMPROVING EVERY TIME I SEE IT. I HAVEN'T BEEN MODEMING FOR 263 ABOUT 3 OR 4 YEARS NOW AND A LOT HAS CHANGED. GOOD JOB GUYS. STILL 264 LOOKING GOOD... 265 << Commander Murdock >> 266 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 013=Usr:84 Michael Miller j 07/12/89 19:34 Msg:4098 Call:22472 Lines:6 267 &*&*&*&*'s 268 Another lurker from the past. I wonder why they never seem to stay? 269 270 An Astral Dreamer 271 &*&*&*&*'s 272 014=Usr:131 THE VISION 07/13/89 00:25 Msg:4099 Call:22480 Lines:11 273 _____T_H_E__V_I_S_I_O_N_____ 274 275 The Vision signing IN. 276 277 The Vision signing OUT. 278 279 Hey AD, how's it going? How's your new place working out? hope well. 280 later pal 281 282 _*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*__ 283 015=Usr:277 Schizo 07/13/89 01:04 Msg:4100 Call:22483 Lines:6 284 !!! @!@! !!!! !! @@!! @@@ 285 Ye hold thy self erect upon thy brow. 286 Billowing high above the drone of acid rain. 287 Bugs lie and cheat and steal for a glass of potatoes. 288 what the hell? 289 !!! @!@! !!!! !! @@!! @@@ 016=Usr:286 Jeff Marten 07/13/89 01:15 Msg:4101 Call:22484 Lines:34 290 291 292 {+}{+}{+}{+} 293 294 =|= F I S H N E W S =|= 295 296 (SALEM) IN A BOLD MOVE, OREGON GOVERNOR NEIL 297 GOLDSCHMIDT ANNOUNCED THIS MORNING THAT THE 298 DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION AND THE DEPARTMENT OF 299 CORRECTIONS WOULD MERGE INTO A SINGLE GOVERNMENT 300 OFFICE. 301 "WE REALIZED THAT THE TWO DEPARTMENTS SERVE 302 BASICALLY THE SAME PURPOSE, AND FUNCTION IN MORE 303 OR LESS THE SAME MANNER" SAID GOLDSCHMIDT, 304 ADDING "WE SEE THIS AS A LOGICAL STEP TOWARD 305 STREAMLINING STATE GOVERNMENT". 306 PRISON OFFICIALS WERE ECSTATIC OVER THE 307 ANNOUNCEMENT, ANTICIPATING THE INCREASE IN 308 WAREHOUSING SPACE FOR THE CURRENTLY CRAMPED 309 PRISON POPULATION. SCHOOL OFFICIALS ALSO 310 EXPRESSED DELIGHT OVER THE PROSPECT OF A 311 UNIFIED EDUCATION/PRISON ADMINISTRATION. AT THE 312 DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION, THE SUPERINTENDENT OF 313 PUBLIC INSTRUCTION NOTED "SO MANY OF OUR 314 STUDENTS GO DIRECTLY FROM THE SCHOOL SYSTEM TO 315 THE CORRECTIONS SYSTEM, WE SEE THIS AS A GREAT 316 TIME AND COST SAVING MEASURE". 317 318 -+|[ ThingFish ]|+- 319 On Summer Vacation/Furlough 320 321 322 {+}{+}{+}{+} 323 017=Usr:84 Michael Miller j 07/13/89 19:28 Msg:4102 Call:22489 Lines:13 324 &*&*&*&*' 325 s (Drat!) 326 327 Vision, I'm fine. Just got a big raise and increase in hours. In a few months 328 I might even be able to pay off my bills, Then no doubt they`ll want me to 329 start paying on my student loans. Sigh. But, atleast I don't have to worry 330 about going hungry anytime soon. 331 332 Perhaps I'll even be able to write again... 333 334 An Astral Dreamer 335 &*&*&*&*`s 336 018=Usr:666 james kolbet 07/13/89 21:27 Msg:4103 Call:22492 Lines:27 337 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 338 Hello VISION! Yes, about five months ago, I did have to study for finals. 339 Unfortunately, Immediately after those were completed, I began heavy duty 340 studying for Academic Decathlon. For those of you who don't know what that is, 341 In five or six high schools in Oregon, teams of nine students compete in ten 342 different categories. These are:Economics, English, Social Science, Science, 343 Math, Fine Arts, an Essay, a Speech, and an Interview. No, I didn't forget the 344 tenth category--Super Quiz. This could be any topic. This year it was the 345 1988 Presidential campaign, and the Presidency(with all its glorious history!) 346 We had to know anything and everything about our assigned topics, and then, 347 on April 1st, we competed in the State competition. Our team from Tigard, and 348 well, nobody else from the Metro area, but several from the coast, took tests 349 in all these areas in order to go to nationals. Our team won!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 350 This meant we had another month to study before nationals, which were held in 351 Providence Rhode Island. We spent an entire week there, and managed to place 352 fourteenth in the nation, the best Oregon has ever done, and we brought home 353 four medals!!!!!! That's where I've been for most of the last five months! 354 The rest of the time, I've been trying to graduate(I did manage to make it, 355 with a 3.97 and third in my class!!!) Suddenly school was out, and I began 356 working full time at the zoo. Until these past few weeks, I haven't had any 357 time to write anything, let alone touch a computer. 358 I just looked back to see how long this message was! Oh well, Call it an 359 advertisement or recognition for the Academic Decathlon. Next year, they hope 360 to get more schools involved. 361 Anyway, How about yourself? 362 Kaitlyn 363 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 019=Usr:33 Mike Stanfill 07/13/89 23:31 Msg:4104 Call:22497 Lines:10 364@rz 365@*0000000 **00000000000000 366 /*/*/*/*/*/*/* 367 368 369 _ 370 /#) 371 n n n (#/ 372 / ~~~ ~~~ \/ 373 lurklurklurklurklurklurklurklurklurklurklurklurklurklurk /___/____\__\ 020=Usr:333 Bartender Slug 07/13/89 23:38 Msg:4105 Call:22498 Lines:5 374 375 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 376 Bartender Slug lurked here. 377 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 378 021=Usr:322 Stray Cat 07/14/89 07:26 Msg:4106 Call:22504 Lines:1 379 022=Usr:277 Schizo 07/14/89 18:25 Msg:4107 Call:22515 Lines:7 380 !!! @!@! !!!! !! @@!! @@@ 381 So you want to be a blister star? You've gotta practice first. 382 Practice on your blister packs and make ten thousand burst. 383 Then light a cigarette and take one drag (get the end nice and hot) 384 Then stick it to your underarm and give it all you've got. 385 - Kisser The Blister '88 - 386 !!! @!@! !!!! !! @@!! @@@ 023=Usr:4 Milchar 07/14/89 23:25 Msg:4108 Call:22522 Lines:5 387 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 388 A gaggle of lurkers. What is the plural of a lurker, anyway? Lurkee? 389 Lurki? Lurkors? 390 A brief thought from 391 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Milch +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 024=Usr:286 Jeff Marten 07/15/89 04:08 Msg:4109 Call:22535 Lines:29 392 393 394 {+}{+}{+}{+} 395 396 Just got back from the Bonnie Raitt concert tonight. 397 398 My God. 399 400 I used to think that Bonnie Raitt had the finest, sweetest most 401 soulful voice of any female vocalist I had ever heard. After 402 tonight I don't think that any more. I KNOW it. I BELIEVE it. I'm 403 sure there are any number of music teachers or vocal coaches who 404 would tell me "Well, you know...technically thus and so Opera 405 Diva with the 19 octave range is clearly superior to......". 406 Well, sorry. I don't speak that language. What I know is what I 407 hear with my own ears, and how it makes me feel. A synthesiser 408 can hit the high notes too, but it doesn't have any soul. 409 This woman has clearly come into her own as a singer, and the 410 songs she writes and the way she carries them off demonstrates a 411 level of humanity and strength that is awe-inspiring. I only wish 412 there were more just like her so THEY could rule the world and 413 hire waterhead geeks like George Bush as secretaries. 414 415 -+|[ ThingFish ]|+- 416 And You Can Quote Me On That 417 418 419 {+}{+}{+}{+} 420 025=Usr:61 Emu 07/15/89 22:30 Msg:4110 Call:22608 Lines:13 421 .-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. 422 Hello, friends and countrymen. Some of you might even remember who 423 I am. I was going to simply lurk, but thought I'd at least contribute 424 a little to this week's discussion. As for us continual lurkers, 425 Milch, (yes, "lurkers", not "lurki" gads!) we seem to be like the 426 typical human who must say "I was here", especially when we haven't 427 anything better to say. As for the news on BWII, it seems quite a 428 change from the days of yore when I first came to the Inn. I s'pose 429 this is a familiar call, but what happened to our stories? Did all 430 the storytellers do as I? No more time, because of jobs, family, 431 cars, all those other 'grown-up' things? I know, 'tis sad. But 432 dinner and my wife call, so I shall end here. Happy trails... 433 .-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.Emu 026=Usr:4 Milchar 07/16/89 01:52 Msg:4111 Call:22614 Lines:7 434 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 435 Emu: Greetings! Yes, 'tis true, most of the "old-timers" have gone 436 on to other things, and haunt these halls but infrequently. I myself 437 am far from the most vocal... I hear from a few of them from time to 438 time but it isn't as often as it once was. You, for example. :-) 439 Say hi to Vanessa and the 'lil nipper for me! 440 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Milch ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 027=Usr:322 Stray Cat 07/16/89 09:46 Msg:4112 Call:22623 Lines:62 441 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~The forms that swim and the shapes that creep under the waters 442 of sleep . . . 443 444 Beneath the decent facade of consciousness with its disciplined moral order and 445 its good intentions lurk the crude instinctive forces of life, like monsters 446 of the deep -- devouring, begetting, warring endlessly. They are for the most 447 part unseen, yet on their urge and energy life itself depends: without them 448 living beings would be as inert as stones. But were they left to function 449 unchecked, life would lose its meaning, being reduce once more to mere birth 450 and death, as in the teeming world of primordial swamps. In creating civili- 451 zation man sought, however unconsciously, to curb these natural forces and to 452 channel some part at least of their energy into forms that would serve a 453 different purpose. For the coming of consciousness, cultural and psychologi- 454 cal values began to compete with the purely biological aims of unconscious 455 functionig. 456 457 Throughout history two factors have been at work in the struggle to bring 458 about the control and discipline of these nonpersonal, instinctive forces 459 of the psyche. Social controls and the demands of material necessity have 460 exerted a powerful discipline from without, while an influence of perhaps 461 even greater potency has been applied from within the individual himself, 462 in the form of symbols and experiences of a numinous character -- psycho- 463 logical experiences that have had a powerful influence on certain individuals 464 in every community. So powerful indeed were these experiences that they 465 became the core of religious dogmas and rituals that in turn have influenced 466 the large mass of the people. That these religious forms have had power to 467 curb the violence and ruthlessness of the primitive instincts to such an 468 extent and for so long a time is a matter for the greatest wonder and amaze- 469 ment. It must mean that the summbols of a particular religion were preculiarly 470 adapted to satisfy the urge of the conflicting inner forces, even lacking the 471 aid of sonscious understandings, and in many cases without the individual's 472 having himself partaicipated in the numinous experience on which the ritual 473 was originally based. 474 475 So long as the religious and social forms are able to contain and in some 476 measure to satisfy the inner and outer needs of the individuals who make up 477 a community, the instinctive forces lie dormant, and for the most part we 478 forget their very existence. Yet at ties they awaken from their slumber 479 and then the noise and tumult of their elemental struggle break in upon 480 our order lives and rouse us rudely from our dreams of peace and contentment. 481 Nevertheless, we try to blind ourselves to the evidence of their untamed 482 power and delude ourselves into believing that man's rational mind has 483 conquered not only the world of nature around him but also the world of 484 natural, instinctive life within. 485 486 The increasein power that sciencehas made available to man has not been 487 equalled by a corresponding increase in the development and wisdom of human 488 bings; and the upsurge of instinctive energies tat has occurred in the 489 political field has not as yet been adequately controlled, let alone tamed 490 or converted to useful ends. Yet for the most part we continue to hope that 491 we will be able to reassert the ascendancy of reasonable, conscious control 492 without any very radical concomitant change in man himself. It is, of course, 493 obviously easier to assume that the problem lies outsides one's own psyche 494 than to undertake responsibility for that which lurks within oneself. But 495 are we justified in taking this attitude? Can weq be so sure that the in- 496 stinctive forces that caused the dynamic upheavals in Europe and obliterated 497 in a decade the work of centuries of civilization, are really limited by 498 geographical or racial boundaries to the people of OTHER nations? May they 499 not, like the monsters of the deep, have access to all oceans? In other 500 words, is "our sea", the unconscious as we paraticipate in it -- exempt 501 from such upheavles. 502 028=Usr:322 Stray Cat 07/16/89 11:56 Msg:4113 Call:22626 Lines:3 503 504 We don't know what's happening do we, Mr. Jones. 505 029=Usr:70 Kurfur Redlig 07/16/89 15:51 Msg:4114 Call:22628 Lines:17 506 KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKurfur Redlig | And upon that note........................ 507 508 Knowledge is its own longterm prevention. Any species that gains enough 509 intelligence to take too much advantage of its environment eventually 510 kills most of itself off by taking said advantages. 511 512 KKKKKKKKKKurfur Redlig | And now for something completely different....... 513 514 Oh yes, I forgot to mention that after yet another mysterious absence (to 515 myself as well as others), I have returned. 516 517 OLO 518 \___/ 519 U 520 521 KKKKKKKKKurfur Redlig | And now for something more completely different.... 522 030=Usr:322 Stray Cat 07/16/89 19:59 Msg:4115 Call:22631 Lines:10 523 524 ~~~~~~~~ Squirreling down Hwy. 61 again and again 525 526 when the steamshovels and dump trucks aren't enough 527 when the commissioned clowns have died in battle or in vain 528 and sleuthing one-eyed midgets becomes a pain 529 and you're sick of the repetition and seeking Queen MaryJane 530 you keep squirreling down hwy 61 again, again and again 531 532 This is NOT a poem 031=Usr:322 Stray Cat 07/16/89 21:52 Msg:4116 Call:22637 Lines:60 533 534 The force that lay behind the revolutionary movements in Europe was not 535 something consciously planned for or voluntarily built up; it arose 536 spontanaeously from the hidden sources of the Germanic psyche, being evoked 537 perhaps but not consciously made by will power. It erupted from unfathom- 538 able depts and overthrew the surface culture that had been in control for 539 so many years. TAhis dynamic force seemingly had as its aim the destruction 540 of everything that the work of many centuries had laboriously built up and 541 made apprently secure, to the end that the aggressors might enrich themself 542 in the resulting chaos, at the expense of all other peoples, meanwhile 543 ensuring that none would be left with sufficient strength to endanger the 544 despoilers for centuries to come. 545 546 The excuse they offered for their disregard of international law and the 547 rights of others was that they own funcamental needs had been denied. 548 They justified their actions on the ground of instinctual compulsion, 549 the survival urge that requires living space, defensible frontiers, and 550 access to raw materials -- demands in the national sphere corresponding to 551 the imperatives of the instinct of self-preservation in the individual. 552 553 The aggressors claimed that the gratification of an instinct on the lowest 554 biological level is an inalienable right, regardless of what means are 555 employed for its satisfaction: "My necessity is of paramount importance; 556 it has divine sanction. I must satisfy at all costs. Your necessity, 557 by comparison, is of no importance at all." This attitude is either cyni- 558 clly egotistical or incredibly naive. The Germans are a Western people and 559 had been under Christian influence for centuries; they might therefore 560 be expected to be psychologically and culturally mature. Were this the case, 561 would not the whole nation have to be judged to be antisocial and criminal? 562 It was not only the Nazi overlords, with their ruthless ideology, who dis- 563 regarded the rights of others so foully; the whole nation manifested a 564 naive egocentricity akin to that of a young child or a primitive tribe, and 565 this, rather than a conscious and deliberate criminality, may perhaps 566 account for their gullibility and their acquiescence in the Nazi regime. 567 Deep within the Germanic unconscious, forces that were not contained or 568 eld in check by the archetypal symbols of the Christian religion, but had 569 flowed back into pagan forms, notably Wotanism, were galvinizing into 570 life by the Nazi call. For that which is the ideal of the virtue of an 571 outworn culture is the antisocial crime of its more evolved and civilized 572 successor. 573 574 The energy that could change the despondent and disorganized Germany of 575 1930 into the highly organized and optimistic, almost daemonically powerful 576 nation of a decade later, must have arisen from deeply buried sources; it 577 could not have been produced by conscious effort or by the application of 578 rational rules either of conduct or of economics. These dramatic changes 579 swept over the country like an incoming tide or a flood brought about by 580 the relese of dynamic forces that had formerly lain quiescent in the 581 unconscious. The Nazi leaders seized upon the opportunity brought within] 582 their reach by this "tide in the affairs of men." They were able to do 583 this because they were themselves the first victims of the revolutionary 584 dynamism surging up from the depts, and they recognized that a similar 585 force was stirring in the mass of people; they had but to call it forth 586 and release it from the civilized restraints that still ruled the ordinary, 587 decent folk. If these forces had not been already active in the unconscious 588 of the German people as a whole, the Nazi agitators would have preached 589 their new doctrime in vain; they would have appeared to the people as 590 criminals or lunatics and would by no means have been able to arouse popular 591 enthusiasm or to dominate the entire nation for twelve long years. 592 032=Usr:322 Stray Cat 07/16/89 23:46 Msg:4117 Call:22641 Lines:21 593 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ and it never occurred to me to notice a resemblance ... 594 595 Is anybody bored yet??? This **IS** Sunday you know. 596 597 Just one more paragraph ... 598 599 This spirit of dynamism is directly opposed to the spirit of civilization. 600 The first seeks life in movement, change, exploitation; the second has 601 sought throughout the ages to create a form wherein life may expand, may 602 build, may make secure. And indeed Christian civilization, despite all 603 its faults and shortcomings, represents the best that man in his inade- 604 quacy has as yet succeeded in evolving. But the greed and selfishness 605 of man have never been adequately dealt with. Crimes against the 606 corporate body of humanity are constantly being perpetrated not only in 607 overt acts but also, and perhaps more frequently, through ignorance and 608 exclusively ego-oriented attitudes. Consequently the needs of the weak 609 have been largely disregarded, and the strong have had things their own 610 way. 611 612 bye for now 613 033=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY 07/17/89 00:32 Msg:4118 Call:22644 Lines:15 614 -------------------------------------------------------------------- 615 I'm sure that there would be many religous orders who would take exception 616 to the statement that the "Christian civilization" is somehow better than 617 their's. That seems to be a rather common refrain among those who closely 618 hold their beliefs to be the only valid belief. It naturally follows then 619 that they must also state that their's is the best way. They must if they 620 are to continue in their belief system. After all, if another was better, 621 then why would they not convert to the the 'better' belief system? Indeed, 622 this is the vary thing which causes one to convert from one belief system 623 to another. Nevertheless, it is the height of self-gratification to 624 catagorically state one's own belief system is the best for all. It is one 625 thing to say that a belief system is best for one's self, it is an entirely 626 different thing to egotistically state that one's belief system is best 627 for all. 628 -------------------------------- C ------------------------------------- 034=Usr:131 THE VISION 07/17/89 01:03 Msg:4119 Call:22645 Lines:21 629 _______________T_H_E___V_I_S_I_O_N_____________ 630 631 WOW!! I'm way too tired all that passed by me but that was a lot of stuff 632 up there!! JEEZ looked interesting but too tired to think right now. 633 Ok before I forget.. CONGRADULATiOns Kaitlyn!!! sounded killer and fun 634 that academic thing. you got a 3.97 you are totally killer you can go 635 almost anywhere for college that you want. Care to share your SAT scores 636 I bet really high! good work Kat. you asked how 'bout you? I assume you 637 mean how's my summer been well nothing big or exciting I went to Bend, 638 Welches (Rippling River), Walnut Creek CA, Pleasanton CA, and San 639 francisco and my home town San Jose. And I have been to about 30 movies. 640 I am also working at my father's business making $6 an hour doing data 641 entry since I type 96 words a minute. not very excting summer.. but the 642 great movies help. Hope to talk to you again soon K. Later! 643 GREAT TO HEAR THAT THINGS ARE WORKING OUT FOR YOU AD!!! 644 glad things are going ok with work and where you are staying I hope you 645 can make enough cash to pay your bills and stuff. Jeez... now I'm scared 646 to enter the real world. :) good luck AD and goodnight as well!!! 647 648 _*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*__ 649 035=Usr:322 Stray Cat 07/17/89 05:50 Msg:4120 Call*22646 Lines:10 650 651 It's the best belief system for WESTERN man because of how he's evolved. 652 That's not to say western CIVILIZATION is the best but that's what we've 653 got and maybe what we need to lose. I believe the article goes on to say 654 that. 655 656 But the main point is, any evolution has to begin with the individual. 657 658 Nice article Dave. 659 036=Usr:70 Kurfur Redlig 07/17/89 10:43 Msg:4121 Call:22649 Lines:6 660 KKKKKKKKKurfur Redlig | Things are gettyng pretty deepppppppppppppppppppp 661 662 Lurk Lurk Lurk Lurk Lurk Lurk Lurk Lurk Lurk Lurk Lurk Lurk Lurk Lurk 663 664 KKKKKKKKKurfur Redlig | More on this laterrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr 665 037=Usr:287 Ralph Steadman 07/17/89 19:10 Msg:4122 Call:22654 Lines:49 666 696969696969 667 "...Too tired to think..." perhaps the epitath for the human race? 668 669 TED TURNER TAKES ABORTION STAND:-7/13/89 670 Ted Turner did not attempt to sell ads on next Thursday's 30-minute TBS 671 documentary "Abortion: For Survival" (8:05 p.m. EDT/5:05 p.m. PDT), which 672 takes an unabashed abortion rights stand, not so incidentally sharing Turner's 673 views. "I'm prepared for a hailstorm of protest," says Turner. "We'll just 674 take a lick for a night." 675 YOUNG MOMS-TO-BE USING DRUGS:-7/13/89 676 Alcohol and drug use are common among pregnant teen-agers, particularly 677 those who are single, says a study by researchers from Boston City Hospital 678 and the Boston University School of Medicine. The study, published in the July 679 issue of the journal Pediatrics, suggest that substance abuse was an 680 underrated contributor to high maternal and infant medical complications 681 rates. 682 BIRTH CONTROL FAILURE REVISED:-7/13/89 683 Some common birth control methods fail more often than previously thought, 684 say tests published in Thursday's issue of Family Planning Perspectives. 685 Spermicide has a 26-percent failure rate. The rate was previously estimated at 686 19 percent. Condoms had a 14 percent failure rate, rather than 10 percent. 687 GETTING HITCHED LESS COMMON:-7/13/89 688 People aren't rushing to the altar. National Center for Health Statistics 689 show the U.S. marriage rate continues to drop. In 1986, there were 10 690 marriages per 1,000 people - down slightly from 1985. Men and women are also 691 getting hitched later in life. The mean age at first marriage in 1986 was 692 about 24 for women and 26 for men. Both figures are substantially up from 1985. 693 PREGNANCY EDUCATION A MUST:-7/11/89 694 One in six pregnancies end in miscarriage and many of the miscarriages 695 could be prevented, high-risk pregnancy specialist Dr. Stefan Semchyshyn said 696 this week. Early detection of problems through the use of ultrasound combined 697 with educational programs for pregnant women could help save many of the 698 unsuccessful pregnancies, Semchyshyn said. 699 700 "...Too tired to think..." perhaps that's why the stories 701 ended. 702 703 SEXUAL ABUSE MORE COMMON:-7/13/89 704 Seven percent of the nation's young adults say they were forced to have 705 sex at least once before age 20, according to the first representative study 706 on the issue. White women are most likely to report forced sex, according to 707 data from interviews of 1,150 people ages 18-22 published in the current issue 708 of Family Planning Perspectives. 709 Nearly half the women reporting sexual abuse in a recent study said the 710 incidents occurred before they were 14 years old. The study, published in the 711 current issue of Family Planning Perspectives, said 13 percent of white women, 712 8 percent of black women, 6 percent of black men and 2 percent of white men 713 reported being sexually abused in their childhood or teen years. 714 038=Usr:287 Ralph Steadman 07/17/89 19:20 Msg:4123 Call:22655 Lines:100 715 "...Too tired to think..." the rallying cry of Reagan/Bush 716 Republicans who allowed: 717 HUD FIASCO STILL FALLING OUT:-7/14/89 718 The tally of lost money grows daily at the Department of Housing and Urban 719 Development as Secretary Jack Kemp, Congress and the Justice Department wade 720 into the swamp left by former HUD Secretary Samuel Pierce. As officials get 721 knee-deep in the mess, the homeless and ill-housed wait. The Senate banking 722 committee joined two House committees Thursday in an effort to begin cleaning 723 up. 724 Despite reports Deborah Gore Dean, a key figure in the Department of 725 Housing and Urban Development scandal, will be offered immunity for testifying 726 against Ex-HUD secretary Samuel Pierce, California Rep. Thomas Lantos denied 727 Thursday that it was an "active consideration." Lantos heads a House 728 Government Operations subcommittee. Coming up: A return appearance by Pierce. 729 DEBATE - SCANDAL USA TODAY'S OPINION: 730 A decade of fraud, mismanagement and theft at the Department of Housing 731 and Urban Development has robbed taxpayers of $2 billion intended to help the 732 poor. HUD isn't there to help developers. Or consultants. Or influence 733 peddlers. HUD is there to help the poor. 734 OTHER VIEWS: 735 DIANE CULBERTSON, member of the USA TODAY editorial board: You've heard 736 all the bad stuff: The millions of dollars ripped off by greed-heads who were 737 supposed to renovate housing for the poor. But there's some good stuff that 738 you may not have heard as much about. There are people who care. With HUD in 739 such a mess, ordinary people should step in to get substandard housing back 740 into shape. 741 KEVIN D. TEASLEY, public affairs director for the Reason Foundation: HUD 742 acted wrongly in doling out special political favors to close friends. That's 743 not the issue. The issue is whether the government has the ability to, and 744 does, act responsibly. The only sure way to avoid more federal housing 745 scandals is to get the federal government out of the housing business. 746 HUD SECRETARY JACK KEMP: "We have stopped the hemorrhaging." 747 JOHN H. LUKE, General Accounting Office, in October 1984 warning to 748 Congress: "Project selections had been based upon political consideration 749 rather than merit." 750 REP. HENRY B. GONZALEZ, D-Texas: "I wish to emphasize, once again, we are 751 the committee that authorizes programs, makes the changes in them, or 752 terminates them." 753 SAN DIEGO, CALIF., Dulcena Taylor, 53, secretary: "If housing were left to 754 private business, many low-income families probably would not qualify for 755 loans. The government would be a little more lenient. The country needs HUD. 756 But it needs to be better monitored, and the people who run the department 757 need to be held more accountable." 758 BATON ROUGE, LA., Mary Medica, 25, sales director: "Public housing should 759 be a joint effort between the federal government and the private sector. The 760 government is good at helping people who need assistance. And there are 761 definitely private citizens who would like to be involved. HUD is a much- 762 needed agency. But it needs tighter management." 763 SEATTLE, WASH., Bud Trout, 60, retired meat buyer: "... HUD was managed 764 very loosely. I would call it stealing. But putting public housing in state 765 hands won't improve the situation. There are so many people in poverty who 766 need help. Jack Kemp has really opened a can of worms. What he needs to do now 767 is police the agency properly." 768 HILLS ON HILL FOR HUD TESTIMONY:-7/17/89 769 U.S. Trade Representative Cabla Hills faces congressional grilling Monday 770 about her role in the ever-widening scandals at the Department of Housing and 771 Urban Development. Hills, HUD secretary under President Ford, is expected to 772 tell the panel about her lobbying for a Washington finance company, DRG 773 Funding Corp., and Florida's Swezy Realty. 774 need ANOTHER Reagan scandal? 775 SCANDAL FRUSTRATES FDA CHIEF:-7/11/89 776 The head of the Food and Drug Administration told Congress on Tuesday he 777 was shocked, embarrassed and angered by disclosures of a growing kickback 778 scandal involving FDA approval of generic drugs. Testifying under oath before 779 an investigating subcommittee, Dr. Frank Young said he was frustrated with the 780 FDA's inability to move quickly against wrongdoers who try to bribe FDA 781 workers. 782 So...let's see if I've got it straight... For the last 8 783 years (or longer?), the EPA has essentially done nothing, and had no funds 784 even if it wanted to clean the environment up; The CIA has been importing and 785 selling drugs with some of the largest drug dealers in the world, subverting 786 "free and democratic" elections, selling arms and other material in exchange 787 for hostages and to profit a few rich arms dealers, lying to Congress; HUD was 788 giving taxpayers' money to Reagan/Bush croenies while the poor slept on heating 789 grates, and the FDA was being bribed to approve drugs...What a great country 790 this must be. Might make some folks want to protest and perhaps burn the 791 symbol of all this greed and stupidity. BUT the same DESPOTS we would 792 burn the flag to protest, would take away our right of free expression...... 793 794 "On the blind side and down the back ways The roots of sadness crawl... 795 When you can't get what you need, You feel like taking a torch to it all. 796 All the sweet talk makes a bitter man. You can feel the darkness rise. 797 Sometimes you don't know what you're fighting for, You don't know who it is 798 you despise. 799 I am the Halleluiah Man, break all the rules, I'm the King of 800 Fools. I'm the renegade, in this greytown And I'll do ANYTHING to bring a 801 government down. I am the Halleluiah Man, yes, my friends, I've been born 802 again. I'm the Black Sheep, who, while the shepards sleep Will do ANYTHING 803 to bring a government down. 804 In a coat of a thousand colours and a star-spangled Cadillac He picked up a 805 rodeo Queen with whiplash marks all over his back: "When dreams don't become 806 their people, People become their dreams." He didn't understand at the time, 807 But now he knows exactly what it means... 808 809 They said, "Watch out boy, be careful where you tread. Your're throwing away 810 all that beautiful bread." He slept outside until the world opened up, They've 811 got to understand he's a Halleluiah Man. He built himself a prison, he knew 812 he had to escape. Some worlds are together by steel, Some worlds are held 813 together by cellophane tape. He was drifting thru the sharks' teeth He always 814 paid his dues. When something told him he had nothing, that's when he knew 039=Usr:287 Ralph Steadman 07/17/89 19:50 Msg:4124 Call:22656 Lines:15 815 He had NOTHING TO LOSE. He says, 816 "I am the Halleluiah Man, 817 break all the rules, I'm the King of Fools I'm the Renegade, in the greytown 818 And I'll do ANYTHING to bring a government down." I am the Halleluiah Man, yes 819 my friends, I've been born again I'm the Black Sheep, while the shepards sleep. 820 I'LL DO ANYTHING TO BRING THIS GOVERNMENT DOWN. 821 822 "When dreamc don't become their people, People become their dreams" 823 He didn't understand at the time, but now he know exactly what it means." 824 ---James Grant 825 826 696969696969696969 827 "...Too tired to think..." 828 829 040=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY 07/17/89 21:50 Msg:4125 Call:22659 Lines:51 830 ----------------------------------------------------------------- 831 I wouldn't even say that the Christian belief system is "best" for 832 the western culture. It's simply the currently prominant religous 833 belief system. That does not make it best or worst, it only makes 834 it the current one. In the course of human history, it is rather 835 young as a belief system. Though there are certainly even younger 836 belief systems. There are also however old belief systems in the 837 world. 838 As for the attempt to use the dasterly deeds of the Germans during WWII 839 as proof that the Christain system is best... All I can say is that that 840 is the most convoluted piece of backpatting I've seen in a long time. 841 It can be easily shown that Christain dogma has been used for such vile 842 purposes as well. Probably one of the more well known instances is the 843 Spanish Inquesition. ("I didn't expect some sort of Spanish Inquesition!") 844 Even the bible contains references to such extremes. One example being the 845 extreme hatred of the Amelikites by the Hebrews, to the point of attempted 846 genocide of the race (which was nearly accomplished). This action was 847 not only approved, but sanctioned by their god (or so the texts state). 848 Here we have an example of the same thing that Hitler attempted. Perhaps 849 for slightly different reasons, but certainly the results were the same, 850 attempted genocide. 851 The interesting aspect of this is that the Amelikites received this 852 "honour" because of their repeated dasterdly raids on the Jewish people. 853 Yet Egypt which enslaved the Hebrews did not receive such hatred. In fact, 854 it has been proposed that it was the Hebrews who assisted Egypt in 855 overthrowing the Amelikites rein of terror, returning Egypt to their 856 own Egyption rule again. Certainly if you go by the written record, 857 the Hebrew people had as much reason to despise the Egypt as much as the 858 Amelikites, yet they aligned themselves with Egypt to not only fight off 859 the Amelikites, but to attempt to comitte genocide on the race. 860 As always, right and wrong depend only upon the current belief of 861 what is right and what is wrong. What is right and what is wrong changes 862 with time and with the people's beliefs. 863 By the way, be careful of the use of the word evolution. By the 864 statement "evolution is an individual thing", you are confusing the 865 concept of individual and social advancement with evolution. This is 866 the same trap that Hitler fell in (or perhaps more rightly used as a 867 tool to advance his concepts). Evolution is generally considered to 868 be something that happens to a group as a whole, not something that 869 is promoted by an individual, and in general is usually tied to a 870 biological change (note that this does not mean an improvement 871 specifically, rather only a change). 872 People as a rule though like to consider "evolution" as an improvement 873 of some sort and then use that to justify the existance. It has 874 evolved, therefore it is better, therefore it is just. In science, it 875 means none of that, it only means that the current form is the current 876 existing one. Rightness or wrongness has never bee attributed to 877 evolution. That is a human reaction in an attempt to try to use the 878 concept of evolution as validity for existance. This is what Hitler 879 did and it rings the same way in your statement. 880 ------------------------------- M ----------------------------------- 041=Usr:70 Kurfur Redlig 07/17/89 22:57 Msg:4126 Call:22661 Lines:48 881 882 KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKurfur Redlig | Back Again (I think))))))))))))))))))))))) 883 884 885 Very true. Evolution is not getting better, it is just controlled random 886 change. There is no optimum state, there is only one in which things 887 remain close to being balanced (if things ever get totally balanced, the 888 process dies, no change occurs, things get set in their ways, and the 889 slightest change throws everything off, destroying everything). It is 890 totally random, and because of this, is pretty much un predictable. 891 I believe that as soon as a species reaches its peak, it stops 892 evolving (it wouldn't need to at the top). Any deviations would not be as 893 successful, and therefore, would not continue. However, this species 894 would be totally dependant on things remaining the same, for after a while, 895 all deviant traits would be wiped out, and any new changes would have to 896 be the result of mutation (which is very rare and usually unbeneficial). 897 If anything were to change, and the species were unsuited to it, it would 898 be totally unable to have the genetic variations to evolve to a better 899 form, and would rapidly die out. 900 901 (does this sound familiar boys and girls???) 902 903 By removing itself from its surrounding environment, the strange 904 life form known as Homo sapiens-sapiens has ceased to evolve. It has 905 instead attempted to change its surroundings to suit itself. By doing 906 this, it has set up a massive unbalance in the life on the planet, and 907 sudden change is very imminent. Whether it is by a slow irradiating of 908 the planet by ultraviolet light, by the gradual warming and dessicating 909 effect of the CO2 induced 'greenhouse effect', or by the general poisoning 910 of the planet, something is going to change very radically. Humans will 911 attempt to remove themselves from the effects of their superiority by 912 adjusting their environment more (for they will be unable to adapt 913 naturally), and in doing so, they will only exacerbate the problem. The 914 end result, naturally, will be the end of the human race, and (unless 915 mankind has totally destroyed everything, which is very likely), the 916 planet and its life will be able to continue as it should. 917 918 Moral #1: Intelligent species are inherently unintentionally suicidal. 919 920 Moral #2: Be kind to the Earth. Good planets are hard to find. 921 922 Moral #3: Don't cut down forests (rain, old growth, or otherwise). 923 924 Moral #4: One species is never more important than another. A soon as it 925 begins to think so, it proves itself wrong. 926 927 KKKKKKKKKKKurfur Redlig | Eat drink and be merry. Tommorow we go extinct!!! 928 042=Usr:333 Bartender Slug 07/17/89 23:37 Msg:4127 Call:22662 Lines:10 929 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 930 Lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurk lurl lurk lurk lurk lurk 931 "Who are you?" 932 I'm Slug, man. 933 934 BredrSu 935 (try again) Bartender Slug 936 Your friendly Mollusk! 937 938 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 043=Usr:1 CISTOP MIKEY 07/18/89 21:18 Msg:4128 Call:22672 Lines:61 939 A couple of disagreements. First, that mankind has "stopped evolving." 940 There is no proof or disproof of this, so it is not a valid statement. 941 "Intelligent species are inherently unintentionally suicidal." Again, 942 there is no proof or disproof of this. If anything, the few arguments 943 you used to support this statement could easily be appied to _any_ 944 species, not just intelligent ones. Certainly there are some nasty things 945 being done to good old mother Earth, but it is very much premature to say 946 that because of the current state of affairs man will croak. Remember that 947 a part of the whole issue of evolution is that change comes about due to 948 pressure from the surrounding enviornment. Man has achieved the point 949 where it requires a much greater pressure to get him to change. In many 950 respects the source of the change is something that earlier would not 951 cause a problem. But because of the immense load that man is placing 952 on Earths resources this causes new problems to arise that require 953 change to adapt the circumstances. Change includes adapting the way 954 the resources are used. If anything, you could even make a case that 955 all evolution itself is is adapting for the use of available resources. 956 And finally, keep in mind that forests are indeed an important part 957 of the life cycle. But, also keep in mind that trees are a needed 958 resource. Every minute of every day you come in contact with something 959 that can be traced directly back to a tree. Also keep in mind that 960 not all governments or industry are wantonly cutting down forests 961 with no regard to the consiquences. Unfortuanately there are still 962 far too many that are. But, alas, we are fighting a uphill battle. 963 In South America most countries don't have much choice. They need the 964 land to produce so as to pay off their debts (largely to the U.S.). 965 In the U.S. it is happening too unfortunately, these are generally 966 the result of the Government selling off rights to log public lands. 967 Of course there are also many companies that have their own land that 968 they log. In almost every case, they reforest the land. This is to their 969 own benefit, by replanting they can log the land again in a few decades. 970 What we don't know yet is what is the proper balance of harvesting 971 the trees for our needs verses the increased load the change places 972 on the eco system. We have the left wingers who are sticking their 973 heads in the sand saying nothing is wrong, and we have the right wingers 974 saying that the world will end tomorrow in a flaming greenhouse effect 975 basted with ultraviolet radiation. 976 Somewhere in the middle is the answer that we must find quickly, but 977 not lose ours heads running around like chicken little saying that 978 "the sky is falling!" We must rationally decide what steps that need to 979 be taken accounting for all aspects involved, and then implement it 980 in a fashion tht will insure that it will work, and not just make matters 981 worse. This activity is happening even now, though it is slow (too slow 982 for some people). 983 One thing to remember, we have gone through this sort of thing in the 984 past and survived the problems. I expect that we will survive this one too. 985 We are aware that the problem exists and are working to deal with it. 986 Of course one difference is that the current problems we are facing are 987 larger than what we have faced inthe past, but on a scale of effect, 988 it is just as strong. As an example, a couple centuries ago sewage was 989 dumped raw into the rivers. This was an easy way to get ride of it, 990 and originally when the practic was started it had minimal impact. 991 But as population density increased it became a problem to the extent 992 that it was killing large numbers of people (colera). At first it was 993 not known what was causing the problem, but in time it was discovered, 994 and they learned to move the sewage away from where it could 995 contaminate drinking water. A similar problem happened with the black 996 plauge. Here the leason was to live in cleaner surroundings. The 997 black plauge is one of the reasons that rats have such a bad name, 998 they carrierd the ticks that were the carriers of the plauge. 999 There, I filled the disk! ----------------- M ----------------------