LIST FILE ON MARGIN IS 128 STATUS: ALL ALLOWED NUMBER OF LINES: 621 1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask.... 2 ************************ REMOVED: 21 OCT 83 ************************ 3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System) Mike Day System operator 4 ************************************************************ 5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON 6 THIS SYSTEM. 7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned 8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public. 9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system. 10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and 11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the 12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive 13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be 14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved) 15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on 16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'. 17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out 18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored. 19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake, 20 use the replace command to replace the line. 21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up. 22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system. 23 ======================================== 24 25 ========================================= 26 NEW USER GROUP FORMING FOR COMM64 AND V-20 27 NEWSLETTER ON TAPE... 28 CALL 29 254-xxxx 30 or654-xxxx (milw) 31 for more info. 32 (NO DUES!) 33 ========================================== 34 TRON: 35 WHEN IS THE BEST TIME TO CALL? MY MAIN INTEREST IS IN CP/M RUNNING 36 ON THE TRS-80. WHICH ONES RUN AT ORG 0 AND WHICH ONES RUN AT 4000H. 37 ALSO IF THERE ARE ANY HIDDEN GOTCHA'S. I ALSO NEED TO KNOW HOW TO 38 ACCESS THE I/O AND WHAT IS 'NORMAL' FOR I/O (SERIAL PORT/MODEM). 39 ALSO HOW DIFFERENT TRS-DOS IS TO CP/M (I.E. HOW HARD IS IT TO CONVERT 40 A CP/M PROGRAM TO TRS-DOS.) 41 ********** CISTOP MIKEY *********** 16 OCT 83 ******* 1:30PM ******* 42 P.S. PAM WHERE DID YOU GO? 43 *************************************************************** 44 to: telephone company expert 45 re: modems 46 47 You are probably right. I stand corrected, but they can't possibly 48 check every phone line all the time, can they? 49 dss 50 ---------------------------------------------------------------- 51 HOW BOUT THOSES BIRDS(HA) 52 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 53 dss: 54 (correct me if I am wrong, "TCE" (our own BAD)) 55 56 they can come close.......... 57 58 Aaron 59 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 60 --------------------------------------- 61 HOWDY 62 ------------------------------------------------------------- 63 IF IT TAKES A CHICKEN AND A HALF TO LAY AN EGG AND A HALF IN A DAY AND A HALF THEN HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE A MONKEY WITH A 64 WOODEN LEG TO KICK THE SEEDS OUT OF A DILL PICKLE? 65 -------------------------------------------------------------- 66 I DONT SEE WHY THESE PEOPLE SPEND ALL THEIR TIME TYING UP THE PHONE LINES TYPING IN THESE ENLONGA 67 AS I WAS SAYING BEFORE I WAS INTERUPTED, ELONGATED MESSAGES THAT HAVE NO MEANING, WHAT SO EVER!!!! 68 69 A CONCERNED CITIZEN 70 ******************************************************** 71 TO PERSON WHO LEFT THE 300 OR SO LINES OF NUMBERS ON THE SYSTEM: 72 YES, I DID ERASE YOUR MESSAGE. WHILE I NORMALLY WOULD NOT DO SO 73 I ERASED YOUR MESSAGE DUE TO ITS TOTAL LACK OF USEFUL INFORMATION 74 TO THE GENERAL USERS OF BWMS FOR THE AMOUNT OF SPACE USED. WHILE I 75 UNDERSTAND YOUR DESIRE TO SUPPORT YOUR VIEWS WITH FIGURES, I 76 RESPECTFULLY REQUEST THAT YOU KEEP TABLES OF NUMBERS TO A MINIMUM. 77 IT WOULD ALSO HELP GREATLY IF YOU WOULD IMPROVE YOUR UPLOAD PROGRAM 78 TO NOT WASTE 3 LINES FOR EVERY ONE YOU SEND. I MAY VERY WELL HAVE 79 CONSIDERED LEAVING YOUR MESSAGE ON EVEN AT THE 100 LINES OF NUMBERS 80 IF YOU HAD DONE THIS. AS I SAY, I REGRET HAVING TO ERASE YOUR MESSAGE, 81 BUT AS IT STATES IN THE OPENING MESSAGE, THERE ARE ONLY 629 LINES 82 AVAILABLE FOR USE, AND IT IS PREFERABLE THAT THE BE USED WISELY. 83 THANK YOU. AND I AGAIN APPOLIGIZE FOR ERASING YOUR MESSAGE. 84 *********** CISTOP MIKEY ****** 16 OCT 83 ****** 9:42PM *********** 85 Are you implying, Mikey, that the rest of the messages on this system contain 86 any 'useful information.'? 87 P. V. Jeltz 88 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 89 90 }[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 91 YES, I AM STILL ALIVE (THOUGH THERE ARE THOSE WHO MIGHT FIND THIS 92 REGRETABLE), BUT THERE HAVE BEEN MANY THINGS IN MY LIFE RECENTLY THAT 93 HAVE INTERFERED WITH MY RETURNING. I MUST SAY THAT I APPRECIATE THE 94 CONCERN, AND WOULD LIKE TO THANK THOSE WHO LEFT THE NICE MESSAGES! 95 ANYWAY, BACK TO THE REAL (?) WORLD. ANON, RE. THE CANOE ARGUMENT, 96 IT CAN BE EXTENDED FURTHER. WHILE YOU MAY HAVE PROBLEMS WITH THE "LAZY" 97 INDIVIDUAL THAT WON'T PADDLE, YOU ALSO MUST REALIZE THAT, WHILE YOU ARE 98 PADDLEING, SOMEONE HAD TO CUT THE WOOD FOR THE PADDLE, MAKE THE CANOE, 99 DREDGE THE RIVER, ETC., ETC., THE POINT BEING THAT, WHILE YOU MAY INDEED 100 BE PUTTING GREAT AMOUNTS OF EFFORT INTO YOUR PADDLEING, YOU DIDN'T CREATE 101 THE UNIVERSE. NOBODY IS SAYING THAT YOU HAVEN'T WORKED HARD, OR DESERVE 102 WHAT YOU HAVE GAINED, BUT THAT YOU ARE NOT AN ISLAND, ALONE AND 103 INDEPENDANT. YOU (AND EVERYONE ELSE) ARE AN INTEGRAL PART OF THE WHOLE 104 AND YOU DEPEND UPON EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE WORLD FOR YOUR SUCCESS. YOU 105 CAN'T SAY THAT YOU HAVE DONE EVERYTHING IN YOUR LIFE WITHOUT HELP, OR 106 THAT CHANCE HAS HAD NO EFFECT, UNLESS YOU ARE INCREDIBLY EGOCENTRIC. 107 AND DESPITE YOUR BRASHNESS AND BRAVADO, I THINK THAT YOU ARE ALSO 108 REASONABLE. 109 AARON, WELCOME!!! I MUST SAY, YOUR SUDDEN AND UNEXPLAINED 110 DISSAPEARANCE DID IRRITATE ME ( AS WE WERE IN THE MIDST OF CONVERSATION 111 I FELT A LITTLE LIKE SOMEONE WALKED OFF WHILE I WAS TALKING TO THEM ), I 112 CAN UNDERSTAND HOW THESE THINGS GO. AS TO "WHAT'S UP?"......... 113 114 THE SKY, THE CEILING, MY EMOTIONS, ETC. AD NAUSEUM. 115 116 I THINK THAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT A SUBJECT THAT IS APPROPO TO SOME 117 OF THE RECENT ARGUMENTS ON THIS SYSTEM, I.E. THE RULES OF ARGUMENT AND 118 DEBATE. AS HROTHGAR (OH, BATGUANO, THOU ART MISSED!) SAID, SOME SIMPLE 119 RULES SHOULD BE ESTABLISHED, OR IT ALL SEEMS TO DECEND RAPIDLY INTO 120 AD HOMINEM, TU QUOQUE, ETC.. WHAT ARE YOUR SUGGESTIONS? 121 122 ONCE AGAIN, MIKEY, DOM, HROTHGAR, AND ANYONE I'VE MISSED, THANKS FOR 123 THE KIND WORDS! THEY'VE HELPED ( MORE THAN YOU CAN IMAGINE! ) AND MADE 124 IT EASIER TO COPE. 125 [][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM![][][][][][] 126 127 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~ 128 129 DSS: What is "human nature"? Those behavior patterns which are passed 130 from one generation to the next genetically? If so, I believe you 131 attribute much more to it than is appropriate. To my recollection, 132 a typical DNA chain contains about two megabits of information. It seems 133 surprising that all the details of 134 the physiology of the organism and the very basic "instincts", such as sur- 135 vival can be contained in such a small memory, let alone such complex concepts 136 as social organization. I suggest, therefore, that such concepts are 137 learned, not inherited; and as such, subject to change. 138 139 BAD: Yes, I guess we do have different definitions of "luck". 140 By your definition, I would have to agree with your last message almost 141 in its entirity, but I question its relvance to the discussion in progress. 142 For example, I don't think anyone said anything to the effect that the poor 143 black in South Africa has the same chance at success as the white male 144 in USA. In fact, as I believe you were trying to point out, his "chances" 145 would be far less; yet there have been successful South African Blacks. So, 146 it seems that the american , who's "chances" are not nearly so formiddable 147 has little excuse for failure, and since the argument was previously 148 restricted to Americans, you have only strengthened my argument. Also, my 149 contention was not that everyone has an EQUAL chance, but that ALMOST every- 150 one has A chance which depends largely on the effort he is willing to expend. 151 As for the discussion of rock climbing, again you are absolutely right, 152 and again you have confirmed my point. Assuming that getting killed would be 153 an example of failure at rock climbing, then getting to the top in one 154 piece would constitute success. If success is the product of "chance" 155 or "luck", what difference will it make how careful he is? 156 157 Anon: Good argument! 158 159 DSS (again): Whether or not PNB could legally listen to transmitted info 160 (voice or otherwise), I doubt that there are any restrictions against 161 putting equipment on line to detect a carrier but not to decode signal. 162 Perhaps "TCE" (Does "TCE"="BAD", I forgot) could answer one more question. 163 If PNB does take such action, aren't they likely to require modem users 164 to register as such and impose a penalty for failure to do so? If 165 so, it may not be worth the risk even if they can't scan all lines at once. 166 167 Concerned Citizen: Is entertainment "useless"? If so, please send me 168 your color TV; mine has croaked. Actually, the line is not tied up 169 too much by us wordy persons. I believe that many such persons com- 170 pose their messages elsewhere, then download them. I have not yet at- 171 tempted this, but I come online in the ungodly hours of the morning when 172 everyone else is sleeping. 173 174 Aaron: Welcome back. Pardon my limited vocab, but what is "Erehwon"? 175 As for "d" his last words on BWMS (more than two weeks ago) indicated 176 that he was in the process of moving and that he would return in one week 177 with a vast sea of evidence of the existence of a deity. I think he 178 must have drowned in it. 179 180 Dirty Ol' Man 181 182 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~ 183 184 DOM: TSK TSK, I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT BY NOW YOU WOULD KNOW THAT d IS FEMALE! 185 186 PAM: WELCOME BACK! I HOPE THAT THINGS HAVE SETTLED DOWN FOR YOU AND WILL BE 187 AROUND AGAIN. YOUR FRIENDS ARE WAITING. 188 ********** CISTOP MIKEY ********* 17 OCT 83 ******* 8:40AM ************* 189 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 190 191 I think that this BBS is misnamed. Backwater ? No way. The people on this 192 system, for the greater part, exhibit more thoughtfulness and willingness 193 to communicate than any other BBS in the area. The others are very 194 willing to help with technical concepts and problems, but I feel 195 that this type of discussion (although it may have gotten a little out of 196 hand) is one of the best uses of the medium. 197 198 Consider, on this system everyone starts equal. A nameless person with 199 a modem. Those of you who have been around for a while have more 'pull' 200 (so to speak) than those of us who are neophytes, but it would appear that 201 all are listened to. I applaud the board and its participants. I, for 202 one, do not feel the need for another 'for sale' BBS. Again, thanks and 203 keep it alive. 204 205 [][][][][][][][][][][][][] DJJ [][][][][][][][] 0913 17-OCT-1983 206 to: anyone 207 from: dss 208 re: modems 209 perhaps all this worrying is for nothing. Since there is no basis for a 210 rate increase, the PUC probably won't allow it. A lot of other states don't 211 have the enlightened regulatory system Oregon has. OK may be one of them, hence 212 the additional charge is allowed there. Also, I heard that the subject of modems 213 is being discussed in congress and that a rider that prohibits extra charges 214 is attached to a telephone bill currently under consideration. Write your 215 Congressman. 216 217 dss 218 p.s. my definition of human nature is that it is defined both by hereditary 219 traits and by the forces of society. 220 221 ############################################################################ 222 RE: PP.N.B. & MODEMS 223 PLEASE READ THE MESSAGES LEFT ON CBBS 646-5510, NUMBERS 14502 THRU 14505. 224 THEY ARE QUITE COMPREHENSIVE IN THERE EXPLAINING OUR RESPONSIBILITY IN KEEP- 225 ING THE SUR-CHARGE OFF. 226 227 ##################C.Y.M.##################################10/17 117 11:04 AM 228 229 WHAT GENDER IS C.Y.M. ? NO PURPOSE IN THE QUESTION OTHER THAN CURIOSITY. 230 231 C. "CLEAN" Y. "YOUNG" (?) M. "MAN" 232 DOES THIS ANSWER YOUR QUESTION? 233 ################C.Y.M.################## 234 To: DJJ 235 I think that the origin of the name Backwater Message System referred to the location of the machine, not 236 the type of people who tend to use it. 237 To:Whomever 238 My terminal program ignores CTRL-G's. It doesn't hurt a bit. 239 240 Still paddling, 241 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Anon <><><><><><><><><><> 242 ............. 243 Anon, you asked for a number ok, 99.9% luck, .005% fast talking, 244 the rest you are right about. The comment about overconfident 245 climbers refers not to good ones; most who are killed are climbing 246 beyond their abilities & simply don't know it. Usually they are young 247 and inexperienced. Many of us once thought we were the best, strongest 248 etc in the world, or at least Dad was, and then at ablout 2 or 3 we 249 learned better. However, we still hold to the erroneous notion that we 250 have no limits, simply because we haven't yet reached them. It is easy 251 to admit we are not the strongest after we meet someone who is stronger; 252 strength is easy to measure. Mental strength is harder to measure. It isn't 253 even understood. However it is easy to see it varies also. Training may 254 help here, to a point. But we don't even understand how to train. 255 As to the canoe, it is actually easier to paddle a canoe with someone 256 sitting in the bow, even if he doesn't paddle. It is certainly true that 257 we all can go farther by working harder, but the hardest workers I have 258 known have all been poor, and needed to just to survive. Those who 259 succeeded have usually had a good education, and also came from "good" 260 families (ie their families were already successful, so they had a good 261 role model) Sorry about the buzz words. This isn't always true, only 99.9% 262 We didn't get to be the best country in the world on competition, either, we 263 got here by cooperation, and are losing it because we are falling into the 264 "every man for himself, grab what you can" trap. 265 AS to utopia, we already have it. How many people risk and lose their lives 266 trying to get here? 267 268 Monitoring for modems: we don't need to find everyone with one, or even 269 most. If say 10 or 20 in Portland are stuck with a $50 bill, what will 270 happen to the rest? Also, the easy ones to detect are the information 271 providers, like BWMS. Without these, who will the rest of us call? 272 As to the enlightened Oregon PUC, what are you smoking? 273 Good luck. If your complaints seem valid to you, write to your legislator, 274 congressman, PUC. 275 ///////////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 276 #==##==##==##==##==##==##==##==##==##==##==##==##==##==##==##==##==##==##==# 277 This bit with the modem users vs. PNB might get real interesting. 278 Especially when AT&T is getting into the Modem Business with Coleco. 279 Question: Will Mom and Dad buy Son or Daughter a new AT&T Modem for the 280 family ColecoVision as a Xmas present for $99.00 if it will result in a 281 monthly phone bill of $46.97 instead of 12.36? 282 Answer: HELL NO! 283 284 This nonsense may stop when Mother Bell tells all her children to quit rocking 285 the boat. 286 287 The day of metered rates for all calls is coming though, and will speed the 288 use and lower the cost of 1200 baud and faster modems. 289 290 Watch out for any idea that causes the receiving party to be billed for incoming 291 calls. If this happens, all the free systems go away. Real fast, too. 292 293 this tirade brought to you by, 294 the Phantom Glitch 295 /%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%/%10/17/83/%/%/%/%/%/% 296 297 to: whoever 298 from: dss 299 300 Yes, I do think we have a better regulatory climate in Oregon than what exsists in other states. The PUC does not 301 allow every single rate increase to pass through to the consumer. I'm not saying they are perfect, but from what I've 302 read in the news, any rate increase has to have some basis before they will allow it. I think the same climate applys 303 to other agencys like the LCDC. Maybe you have'nt tried, but it is not easy in 304 Oregon to change the zoning on property 305 without a very good reason. Maybe you are cynical about government in this statebut I feel that most state officials 306 are honest and do a good job. 307 308 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: 309 To Pam: 310 I'd like to respond to your comments, because I consider them better thought-out than average. (that, by the way, is a 311 complement.) It is true that in today's specialized society, we tend to make little of what we consume. I don't make my 312 food, clothing, reading material, hardware, furniture, television, toothpaste, and a host of other things too numerous to 313 list. But I do what I do quite well, which is why I make enough money to pay for my desired use of the above-mentioned ic stec 314 can buy. It also doesn't mean that my buying those items should in any way reduce my natural rights to life, liberty and 315 property. Put more simply, I am and should be free to buy the items I wish, from people who are and should be free to sell e 316 the items I wish. The extent of these transactions is the free and unforced exchange of two items of value: Often onney n h t 317 Most commodities, I consume in relatively similar quantities to my fellow Americans: One car every few years, 2 baocre e 318 calculation: Add up the total production from everyone in the world. (I include in this calculation every form of 319 production, including goods and services.) All this production must be consumed, of course. (Waste is merely misguided 320 consumption, in this argument.) So, on the average, a person consumes exactly what he produces. But taken as individuals, 321 some of the people produce more than they consume, some consume more than they produce. Those that produce more are, in fac, 322 not only pulling their own weight, but that of others. 323 It is not important that most of a person's consumption was made by others, only the NET amount. If you start claiming 324 that because I (or anyone else, for that matter) consume products made by others, I have some obligations to others (other 325 than paying for the products I consume) you are attaching 'strings' and conditions to what was a perfectly free transactwenidvd 326 But that is a CIRCULAR argument! It relies on it's own assumptions to be true. Let's look at these questions: 327 1. What right do you (or any third person, or a 'government') have to regulate voluntary transactions between 328 myself and someone else? 329 2. Does the fact that I participate in such transactions allow you, or any third party, to force me to support 330 anyone else? If so, why? 331 3. And if you claim that because I live on the same block/city/state/country/continent/earth as you, I musme wyspot 332 because we live on the same earth you have a right to keep me from saying things you disagree with. In fact, would I then 333 have any freedoms you could not instantly erase? 334 335 So even if I got where I am with the help of others, as you claim, I believe that: 336 A. The net result may be that I helped others more than others helped me. (this is probably true for nearly halfpulto,b 337 B. And since these transactions were voluntary (I didn't hold a gun to anyone's head) I feel that they are non- 338 regulable and totally appropriate, my rights are not reduced even microscopically (nor are my obligations increased even 339 microscopically) as a result of my having participated in them. 340 C. So if I somehow have an innate obligation to my fellow humans, it DID NOT arise from my having done voluntary 341 business with any of them. 342 343 I believe that many people use a 'One World' argument to justify whatever form of manipulation they care to infliceirflo u 344 345 "Just because you ( A. Live in my country. B. Belong to my religion C. Live on the same world. D. Buy/Sell 346 goods from/to me. E. Exist) 347 I have a right to ( A. Manipulate B. Regulate C. Tax D. Jail E. Kill) 348 you" 349 350 The argument is faulty because it assumes that a person somehow becomes legally indebted to another by merely existin, 351 an assertion that defies all logic I'm familiar with. Further, to say that the majority in a particular piece of geogrn d ntig 352 353 If you have a religious bent, you could assert than God himself made us with the unavoidable obligation to take care of 354 each others. But that is an unsatisfying statement, because different religions have different ideas about man's obligatios 355 And with the typical unprovability of religion, we are back to the old problem of how we can force someone to follow the 356 tenets of a particular religion. 357 I also believe, however, that the all-important BURDEN OF PROOF is on those who claim someone else's obligation torld n s 358 services of others in the world, to justify his lifetime enslavement. In fact, one of the arguments promoting black slavery 359 before the Civil War was that blacks were inherently inferior, and thus were obliged to serve whites. We now consider gumn doi 360 considered equally misguided years from now. 361 You should now understand why I view the recent assertions of a person's involuntary obligation to everyone else to be 362 quite wrong. I hesitate to use the term 'immoral,' because that very word is an exercise in the idea that one must follow te 363 beliefs of others. I am not an unhelpful person. But such help will always be voluntary, not because someone forced my 364 participation. 365 ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Anon :::::::::::: 366 p.s. If you think these ideas are a bit too radical, check to see what the U.S. Constitution, 13th Amendment (I think) has o 367 say on the subject of "involuntary servitude." 368 p.p.s excuse the poor uploading of the above message. Unfortunately, this system seems incapable of accepting straigh 369 300 baud, even if I add 20 nulls after each line. Will try 30 next time. 370 371 }[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 372 UNDERSTANDABLE, ANON. THOUGH IT DOES MAKE IT HARD TO ANSWER SOME POINTS DUE TO THEIR ILLEGIBILITY. I WILL TRY TO 373 HIT THE ONES THAT I CAN READ, THOUGH. 374 I WILL TRY TO HIT YOUR POINTS USING THE SAME NUMBER/LETTER SYSTEM YOU USED IN 375 ORDER THAT MY ANSWER IS EASIER TO FOLLOW FOR ALL. 376 1) MY (OR ANYONE ELSE'S) RIGHT TO REGULATE VOLUNTARY TRANSACTIONS IS NON- EXISTANT. I DON'T BELIEVE IN RIGHTS 377 OTHER THAN THOSE GRANTED BY SOCIETY. 378 2) IF YOUR TRANSACTION PRODUCES AN ILL EFFECT UPON SOCIETY OR OTHERS NOT A PART OF YOUR TRANSACTION, I (AND 379 OTHERS) HAVE NOT ONLY A RIGHT (UGH! I DON'T LIKE THE TERM, BUT YOU HAVE SHOWN A PREDILICTION FOR THE CONCEPT, SO I 380 WILL USE IT), BUT A DUTY TO REGULATE YOU AND YOUR TRANSACTION. ONCE AGAIN, YOU AREN'T AN ISLAND, YOUR ACTIONS CAN HAVE 381 AN AFFECT UPON US ALL. 382 3) HERE YOUR UPLOAD IS GARBLED, SO I'M NOT SURE OF ALL YOU SAID, BUT I'LL HIT WHAT I CAN READ. AS TO PREVENTING 383 YOU FROM SAYING SOMETHING, I WOULD HAVE TO RESPOND THAT THE NUMBER OF MESSAGES YOU HAVE LEFT PROVES THAT NOBODY IS 384 ATTEMPTING TO DO THAT. YOU (AND I) HAVE NO REAL FREEDOMS OTHER THAN THOSE THAT ARE GRANTED TO US BY THE GENERAL 385 CONSENSUS OF SOCIETY. IF YOU ARE SAYING THAT WE HAVE "NATURAL" FREEDOMS, THEN YOUR ARE IN ESSENSE ARGUING FOR THE 386 EXISTENCE OF GOD (OR SOMEONE ELSE THAT CAN GRANT SAID FREEDOMS). ARE YOU? 387 A) PERHAPS, BUT EITHER WAY, IF YOU STILL FEEL NO DUTY TO HELP OTHERS, IF YOU ONLY FEEL A DUTY TO YOURSELF, THEN 388 YOU ARE AMORAL AND (I'M SORRY TO SAY IT) A DANGER TO ANY SOCIETY YOU LIVE IN. THE CONCEPT OF "LOOK OUT FOR #1", OR AS 389 THEY SAY IN ENGLAND, "I'VE GOT MINE, JACK!", IS A DANGER TO SOCIETY, AND IS THE RATIONALIZATION USED BY MOST 390 ANTI-SOCIALS TO JUSTIFY THEIR BEHAVIOR. PLEASE NOTE THAT I'M NOT SAYING YOU ARE ANTI-SOCIAL OR A CRIMINAL, BUT THAT THE 391 BASIC CONCEPT YOU EXPRESS IS. 392 393 B) WITHOUT DEFINING YOUR BUSINESS, THIS IS PATENT NONSENSE. ONCE AGAIN, IT COMES DOWN TO YOUR DECISION TO BE 394 SOMETHING OTHER THAN SELF-CENTERED. SLUM-LORDS AND MANUFACTURERS OF CANNED GOODS TAINTED WITH BOTULISM FEEL THE SAME 395 WAY, BUT SOCIETY DISAGREES. AND SO DO I. YOU HAVE OBLIGATIONS & RESPONSIBILITIES THAT GO FAR BEYOND YOUR OWN SIMPLE 396 SELF-INTEREST. 397 WHY DOES THE ASSERTION THAT YOU OWE SOCIETY SOMETHING FOR YOUR EXISTENCE DEFY LOGIC? SOCIETY HAS NURTURED YOU, 398 PROTECTED YOU, AND GIVEN YOU KNOWLEGE, CULTURE, AND A HERITAGE. YOU'VE TAKEN THIS FROM SOCIETY, AND PUT IT TO GOOD 399 USE. YOU DEFINE TAXES AS THEFT, BUT HERE YOU SUPPORT A THEFT OF THE HERITAGE OF SOCIETY FOR YOUR OWN MEANS. 400 THE ESSENSE OF THE PROBLEM THAT YOU (AND I, AND EVERYONE ELSE) HAS ON THIS SUBJECT IS THAT WE HAVE DIFFERENT BASIC 401 BELIEFS AT THE HEART OF OUR ARGUMENTS. YOU BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE RIGHTS, AND THAT SOCIETY DOESN'T. I BELIEVE THAT 402 WE ALL HAVE OBLIGATIONS AND DUTIES, AND THAT RIGHTS ARE SOMETHING GRANTED TO US BY SOCIETY. WITH SUCH DIFFERING 403 STARTING POINTS, WE CAN NEVER COME TO A REASONED AGREEMENT WITHOUT A TOTAL AND COMPLETE CONVERSION OF ONE OF US. AS 404 THAT ISN'T LIKELY TO HAPPEN, THE SUBJECT HAS REACHED A STALEMATE. 405 ANYONE FOR TENNIS? 406 d, IF YOU'RE OUT THERE, PLEASE COME BACK. THE GENTLEMEN REALLY ARE GENTLE, DESPITE THE TONE OF THEIR ARGUMENT. 407 THEY ARE NICE GUYS, DESPITE THE TIMES WHEN THE MACHO FECES FLY. ITS JUST THAT THEY AREN'T ARGUING TO REACH A 408 CONCLUSION ALL CAN SUPPORT, THEY'RE JUST SUPPORTING THEIR PARTICULAR VIEWS WITH THE IDEA OF "WINNING" THE ARGUMENT. ITS 409 REALLY ALL IN FUN, DESPITE THE INNUENDO AND NAME-CALLING. 410 PLEASE? 411 [][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM?[][][][][][] 412 413 P.S. TO ANON: I HOPE THAT YOU DON'T TELL YOUR CUSTOMERS YOUR FEELINGS ABOUT THE OBLIGATION, OR YOU MAY FIND YOURSELF 414 OUT OF BUSINESS. BUT OTHERWISE, I HOPE THAT YOU DON'T TAKE OFFENSE TO WHAT I HAVE SAID. NO HARM IS MEANT!! 415 416 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 417 ################################################################################ 418 BRAVO!! PAM: YOU DO HAVE A WAY WITH ETHTH WORDS. I WISH THAT I COULD BE AS ABJECT AND 419 REASONABLE WHEN ANSWERING THOSE WHO ARE OF A DIFFERENT ,MIND THAN I. 420 YES IT WOULD BE NICE IF 'D' WOULD RETURN ALSO BUT THEN YOU ARE HOLDING UP THE 421 DISTAFF SIDE VERY NICELY. MUST GO NOW, IT'S LATE AND MY PALLET AWAITS. 422 423 ################C.Y.M.################################10/18 1:11AM############## 424 425 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~ 426 427 428 d (If still among the living): My sincerest of apologies for reffering 429 to you as a "he". I'm afraid I have not yet mastered a technique for as- 430 certaining gender digitally, but I'll work on it. Pam seems to be of the 431 opinion that you might be feeling oppressed. If such is the case, 432 and my heckling has contributed thereto, I assure you, my intention was not 433 to oppress, but rather to motivate a rebuttal. In general, I attempt to 434 respond with the same degree of civility as that of the person to whom 435 I am responding. Unfortunately, since you and Leonard are on the same side 436 of the religious issue I am sometimes faced with a problem should I decide 437 to respond to both persons jointly. Therefore, please bear in mind that 438 any animousity in my joint messages is probably not intended for you, 439 unless you should change your level of communication. Not to criticize 440 those with such interests, but politics 441 bores (and overwhelms) me, ergo hurry back so I'll have somebody to argue 442 with. 443 444 BAD: Good grief, you are beginning to sound like the late "Captain America". 445 Is it pride that causes people to blindly accept the propaganda fed to 446 them by their respective governments that theirs is the greatest nation 447 on earth? Perhaps the US is "greatest" in some respects, but there are a 448 multitude of others in which it fails miserably to a number of other coun- 449 tries. Though I have not travelled extensively; I would rate US third 450 of the four countries I have travelled in, in terms of comfortable living 451 conditions (though your values may vary somewhat). 452 While it is true that the amount of money available for education, etc. 453 has a definite impact on the "ease" with which success comes, the lack 454 thereof does not preclude the possibility of success. Learned behavior 455 patterns, however, such as laziness, may do so. This accounts for the 456 tendancy for success to run in families. The reason the poverty 457 stricken seem to work harder is because hunger is a greater motivator 458 than laziness. As soon as the threat of starvation is past, the "hard 459 work" will generally lapse until a level of poverty is resumed. 460 461 CYM: I hate to break the news to you, but there is a discrepancy regarding 462 our respective middle initials. As I recall, a few disks ago you mentioned 463 being in Europe in 1939 (or something like that) which predates my existence. 464 I suspect, therefore, that you are O'er than I........sorry, I suppose I 465 say that I am Y'er than you. Oh well, I won't tell anybody. 466 467 ALL except CYM: Please don't read above message. 468 469 ALL: In order to simplify the process of determining whether a particular 470 user is male or female, perhaps we should suffix our names with an il- 471 lustrative character, such as ^ or @ , respectively. 472 473 Dirty Ol' Man ^ 474 475 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~ 476 477 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 478 a novel scheme, indeed, DOM...yet it takes some of the mystery out of 479 it all, dosn't it? As to "Erehwon", it is "Nowhere" spelled backwards; I 480 was using it in a literary, though. 481 482 From what I was able to read (80 col.), your text above was a shining 483 example of how I wish I could write, PAM. As for some sort of "rules 484 of order" for our rather unique medium, I believe that the best we can 485 accomplish is for those of us who know better to act accordingly. It 486 really dosn't matter too much if a neophyte says "I am; therefore 487 I think", as long as someone is around to say "sure kid, sure...". 488 489 Aaron 490 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 491 ANON: IN LOOKING AT YOUR MESSAGE, I WOULD MAKE THE FOLLOWING RECOMMENDATIONS 492 TO IMPROVE YOUR UPLOAD. FIRST KEEP YOUR LINE LENGTH DOWN TO LESS THEN 493 THE MAXIMUM MARGIN YOU HAVE SET. NOTE THAT BWMS WILL ACCEPT 'ANY' CHARACTER 494 YOU SEND EVEN NULLS. AS SUCH YOU NEED TO INCLUDE THESE IN YOUR CHARAC 495 CHARACTER COUNT. ALSO IF YOU ARE SENDING AT FULL SPEED, STAY AWAY FROM THE 496 BELL MARGIN (7 CHARACTERS FROM TH END OF EACH LINE AS DEFINED BY THE MARGIN. 497 THIS IS BECAUSE BWMS WILL SEND BACK A BELL CHARACTER ALONG WILL THE 498 RECEIVED CHARACTER WHICH PREVENTS IT FROM CATCHING THE NEXT SENT CHARACTER 499 IN TIME AT FULL SPEED. SO, I WOULD SUGGEST THE FOLLOWING; SET T 500 MARGIN TO 128 BEFORE YOU DOWN LOAD; MAKE SURE YOU ONLY SEND LINES LESS 501 THEN 100 CHARACTERS, AND SEND 20 NULLS AFTER EACH CARRIAGE RETURN. 502 (ACTUALLY YOU COULD SEND THE EXTA 20 CAHARACTERS IF YOU WERE TO JUST 503 'WAIT' AFTER THE CARRAIGE RETURN, BUT THE NULLS WILL WORK TO WITH THE 504 ABOVE NOTED RESTRICTIONS.) HOPE THIS HELPS. 505 ****** CISTOP MIKEY ******** 18 OCT 83 ******* 8:24AM ******************* 506 To: Cistop Mikey 507 Yep, I'll try that next time. Was downloading with the margin at 128 and 508 my lines at 126. I believe the problem may only occur when the disk system actually tries to change tracks, since it 509 occurs about every 10 lines (sectors). Does this system use 10-sectored disks, by the way? 510 511 To: PAM 512 Well, at least you are far more capable of expressing your opinions that many of the people using this system. That is 513 refreshing. 514 But no, just because I believe that people have 'certain unalienablerights' doesn not necessarily mean that I have the 515 same motivation for believing this as the original framers of the constitution. They said that people "were endowed by their 516 creator", which meant God, with these rights. I, on the other hand, believe that rights exist independant of any society. 517 You're right, that's an impasse. You believe that all rights are GRANTED by society. But it is fortunate that I'm having 518 the discussion with you; with almost anyone else (on the system) who would care to debate it would have taken 4 disks, and 519 would have been accompanied by plenty of digital shouts and recriminations. 520 But consider this. Slavery has existed in this world as far back as history records, and likely damn longer than 521 that. It was only officially prohibited in all countries in the last 25 years (the last two were Saudi Arabia and something 522 else). So it wouldn't take a sociologist to believe that there is something in human character that gives humans a strong 523 prediliction to accepting slavery as a way of life. Otherwise, how could it have existed for so long in so many places. 524 Even today, it exists, though not officially approved of. But most of us, when asked, would castigate slavery as an improper 525 form of behavior. 526 Even so, with slavery so prevalent in all history, it is to be expected that remnants of this tendency should exist 527 not only blatently, perhaps in the vegetable fields of California, but also discreetly, in the lawbooks of Washington. 528 I believe that such remnants include taxation, which is merely a diluted form of slavery; the draft, a remarkably pure form 529 slavery for this day and age (and by the way, practiced by most 'civilized' societies today; who can propose war as an 530 adequate justification for slavery?); and jury duty, a relatively mild form of slavery. 531 Did you check the Consititution. 'Involuntary Servitude' is just that; being forced ('involuntary') to work for others 532 ('servitude'). Naturally, any legislator who is for taxes or the draft will tap-dance his was around the argument, claiming 533 that the Constitution was never intended to do such things. 534 But once again, I must thank you for putting your beliefs in such a crisp and clear form. Your first principles 535 were understandable, and your conclusions followed directly. You were not at all ashamed to show your true beliefs. You 536 added far more light than heat to the discussion. Even better, you act as an excellent example to those around us who, though 537 they may have more education, have an inability to generate and defend a position. If I had a hat on, I'd take it off to you. 538 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Anon ::::::::::::::::: 539 To: DOMWhat IS my stand on religion? As I recall, I pointed out 540 that IN MY OPINION, you weren't being "fair" to d in regard to 541 some points. Personally, as to existence of God, I'm sure that I'm not sure! 542 Mikey: I can't DOWNLOAD to the system, but I think my AUTO-LOG-on 543 setup might work! (would you believe the M100 uses a TEXT file 544 for the auto-log & allows insertion of 2 second waits at ANY point). 545 _______________________Leonard_______________________________ 546 ************************************************************** 547 To Mikey 548 549 I wanted to let you know that I now have Modem 77 for the APLICARD 550 (Z-80) on my Franklin. It does include an Assembler listing. I'll get you a copy as soon as I can. 551 552 Also, whats wrong with slaves, everyone should own one. (Refering to the comments 553 above). 554 555 I feel like a slave to my city, county and State governments, 556 not to mention those clowns in Washington DC. Since I did not 557 come here to argue, I shall leave you long winded clowns in peace. 558 559 ************************** Billy *************************** 560 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 561 ANYONE FO A DISCUSSION ON THE NEW LISCENCING LAW THAT MULTNOMAH COUNTY HAS FOR 562 CATS? HOW DUMB CAN THOSE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS GET? WHEN THEIR LACKY CAME TO MY 563 DOOR TO REGISTER MY CAT, I TOLD HIM NO WAY. MY CAT IS ALWAYS INDOORS, NEVER ON 564 THE STREET OR EVEN IN MY OWN YARD. THE ONLY TIME HE LEAVES THIS HOUSE IS TO GO 565 TO THE GROOMERS OR VET. HE IS A PURE-BRED PERSIAN AND CAN NOT WEAR A COLLAR SO 566 WHAT GOOD WOULD A TAG DO HIM IF HE WERE TO GET OUT? I'M SURE THE COUNTY WOULD 567 NOTIFY ME OF HIS WHEREABOUTS VIA SOME UNDISCLOSED SYSTEM THAT THEY ARE HIDING 568 SOMEWHERE. SO FAR THEY ARN'T MANAGING THE DOG PROBLEM AS I SEE IT. THERE ARE 569 HUNDREDS OF DOGS RUNNING LOOSE BUT I DON'T SEE ANYONE OUT PICKING THEM UP. 570 571 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^MEOW, CAT LOVER^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 572 Who's Billy? 573 Good, Mr. Cat Lover, I hope that they catch your little pussy and give it the old decompression chamber routine. 574 Meow, Meow, Choke, Gasp, Rattle..... 575 576 577 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~ 578 579 Leonard: Unfair? I don't recall you pointing that out; and indeed, I 580 cannot imagine what you might have thought was unfair, unless you are 581 referring to my use of logic. 582 Please elaborate. 583 586 !UOY KNAHT :NORAA 587 588 Mikey: Thanks for IMSAI info. No, I don't have password, and after 590 your description, I see no great need to get one. 591 592 Dirty 593 594 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~ 595 596 then there are those of us who realize who 597 really runs things and know that there 598 is nothing we can do about any of these situations ourselves 599 and have begun not to care anymore. Why? 600 check out the picture on the ten thousand dollar bill...not a president of a country... 601 a bank president(mr chase)... 602 don't get me wrong... 603 that is how the system works and i am a 604 capitalist at heart but money is not my main purpose... 605 to enjoy just plain life with no worries... 606 Eutopia...maybe but concievable for each 607 person within himself. 608 ................................a pathy............................. 609 610 611 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 0842 19-OCT-1983 612 CAT LOVER: OF COURSE YOUR CAT DOESN'T GET OUT. MOST CATS DON'T BOTHER PEOPLE TOO MUCH 613 EVEN IF THEY ARE OUT. (AND I DON'T PARTICULARLY CARE FOR CATS, SORRY) THE REASON IS MONEY 614 AGAIN. ISN'T IT A SHAME THAT IT ALWAYS SEEMS TO COME TO THAT. 615 616 SLAVERY: I AM A SLAVE TO MYSELF. THERE ARE TIMES WHEN I WOULD SIGN MY OWN EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION, 617 BUT A LOT OF US CANNOT SEEM TO DO IT. WE ARE ALL SLAVES IN ONE FORM OR ANOTHER, TO RELIGION, GREED, 618 POLITICAL IDEAS, ETC. 619 620 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] DJJ [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 621