FILE ON MARGIN IS 126 STATUS: ALL ALLOWED NUMBER OF LINES: 629 1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask...... 2 *********************** REMOVED: 20 SEP 83 ************************* 3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System) Mike Day System operator 4 ************************************************************ 5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON 6 THIS SYSTEM. 7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned 8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public. 9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system. 10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and 11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the 12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive 13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be 14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved) 15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on 16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'. 17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out 18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored. 19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake, 20 use the replace command to replace the line. 21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up. 22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system. 23 ======================================== 24 25 Mikey: your tax example didn't include a /0, just a 0/ which 26 WILL return 0 on ant system that I ever heard of. 27 28 Now as for the old 0/0 argument: The mass of a particle at a given 29 velocity is given by Mv = M/tau, where tau = SQR(1-((v^2)/(c^2))). 30 At c tau=0. Now all photons have a REST mass of 0, thus the mass 31 of a photon is 0/0! Note that photons can have ANY mass. 32 ____________________________Leonard________________________ 33 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~ 34 35 Leonard: I do not dispute your mathematical formulation in the above 36 problem, but I do question your interpretation of an undefined value. 37 An undefined value such as 0/0 does not imply ANY value, only that an 38 exact value cannot be ascertained using that formulation. Consider 39 the slope of a line in the xy coordinate plane, which may be repre- 40 sented as the difference in y-coordinates divided by the difference in 41 x-coordinates of two distinct points on the lines. So for a vertical 42 line, of the form x=constant, the difference in x-coordinates is zero 43 resulting in a slope of m=something/0, which is undefined. Does this 44 mean that m can assume ANY value? NO, clearly, m<>1,m<>-1,m<>.5,....etc. 45 Given an infinite amount of time, and an infinite amount of patience, 46 we could find an infinite number of values which m does not equal. Thus, 47 there are limits to the range of values m can assume but those limits 48 are mathematically undefined. 49 50 Dirty Ol' Man 51 52 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~ 53 ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 54 TO DOM: 55 YOU THINK THAT YOU HAVE TROUBLE GETTING A LINE HERE?? I'VE BEEN TRYING FOR 56 THREE DAYS AND FINALLY GOT THROUGH. 57 MISSED A WHOLE DISC, AS FAR AS I CAN TELL. 58 WISH THERE WERE SOME WAY WE COULD ACCESS MORE THAN ONE BACK DISK-SIDE: 59 C.Y.M 60 61 ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 62 MIKEY: Cheap shot number two comin' at ya'--- Yes, taxes can be complex; 63 but they get a whole lot tougher when one attempts to divide instead of 64 multiply when applying rates to bases! You youngsters...don't ever, ever 65 try this without adult supervision! That's incredible...... 66 {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} 67 OPPS! YOUR RIGHT OF COURSE.. MY APPOLIGIES. I SHOULD CHECK MY WORK A LITTLE MORE 68 BEFORE ENTERING IT. (SO HOWCOME NO ONE ELSE CAUGHT IT?) 69 OF COURSE THE POINT I WAS TRYING TO MAKE WAS THAT WHEN DEALING WITH NUMBERS 70 IN REGARD TO COUNTING OF OBJECTS. WHEN YOU HAVE NOTHING TO COUNT, 71 THEN THE RESULT IS ZERO NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO TO MANIPULATE THE COUNT 72 OF ZERO. IT IS ONLY WHEN YOU DEAL WITH THE DESCRIPTIVE FORM OF THIS 73 THAT IT TAKES ON OTHER MEANINGS. I EXPECT I'LL GET JUST AS MANY 74 ARGUMENTS FROM THAT STATEMENT AS WELL. SO LET ER ROLL.... 75 ******* CISTOP MIKEY ******* 5:18PM ******** 15 SEPT 83 ************** 76 THIS IS A TEST OF THE AMERICAN BROADCAST SYSTEM. 77 78 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 79 IF THERE ARE TIMES WHEN A VALUE ENTERED IS ZERO AND THAT VALUE WILL LATER BE USED AS A DIVISOR, WOULDN'T IT BE 80 EASIER TO HAVE YOUR PROGRAM CHECK ALL VALUES TO BE USED FOR A ZERO VALUE, THEN ASSIGN THAT ZERO VARIABLE A NEW 81 VALUE THAT WON'T BE USED FOR THAT AREA (PERHAPS A -1), THEN CHECK AFTER THE DIVISION FOR NEGATIVE NUMBERS? OR 82 MERELY CHECK ALL DIVISORS FOR A ZERO VALUE BEFORE DIVISION TAKES PLACE, AND BRANCH TO A SUBROUTINE THAT WOULD 83 THEN SUBSTITUTE THE DESIRED VALUE FOR THAT ITEM (IN THIS CASE, 0). IS THIS A WORKABLE ARRANGEMENT? 84 85 [][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM.[][][][][][] 86 P.S. HELLO AARON.....COME IN AARON.......ARE YOU THERE AARON..... 87 88 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 89 TO PAM: THAT KIND OF THING WORKS, BUT IT'S THE SORT OF THING YOU DON'T 90 TO DO ALL THE TIME - WE WANT TO GET OUT OF THAT - THATS WHAT HIGH LEVEL 91 LANGUAGES ARE ABOUT - SAVING EFFORT. 92 TO MIKEY: I THINK IT'S INTERESTING THAT THE EXAMPLES WHERE 0=N/0 93 THAT WORK BEST SO FAR ARE INVENTORY AND RELATED CONCRETE EXAMPLES THAT 94 ARE VERY PHYSICAL AND REAL WORLD. ANYWAY, EINSTEIN DIVIDED BY ZERO A 95 NUMBER OF TIMES, ONLY TO BE 'CORRECTED' OUT OF BUSINESS BY MATHEMATICIANS 96 THAT HE DEFERRED TO ON THE BASIS OF THEIR EXPERTISE - MAYBE HE INTUITED 97 SOMETHING VALUABLE THERE. 98 TO DOM: WHAT ACUMEN. THAT BATS SEEM TO HAVE A NIGHT TIME QUANDRY VIS-A-VIS 99 THEIR CA-CA IS IN FACT ONE OF THE REASONS I CHOSE THE NAME. IT SEEMED 100 SO MUCH MORE TOO-TOO THAN SAY 'DONKEYDUNG' OR 'PASTUREPATTIE'. AS FOR 101 YOUR QUESTION I FEEL THAT AFTER A SHORT WHILE HANGING UPSIDE DOWN THE 102 POOR LITTLE TYKES MUST BE COMPLETELY CONSTIPATED. AND IMAGINE THE 103 PANIC WHEN THE FELLAS ON HIGHER PERCHES WAKE UP AND ASSUME THE VERTICAL 104 POSITION - THAT IS, UPRIGHT. REMEMBER THE OLD FIFTIES THING OF 105 TEACHING STUDENTS TO AVOID NUCLEAR BLASTS BY CROUCHING UNDER THEIR 106 DESKS AT SCHOOL? THIS ENLIGHTED GOVERNMENT PROGRAM WAS CALLED 107 "DUCK AND COVER". THEY SHOULD HAVE TRAINED US IN A BAT CAVE. YOU GET 108 IT???? HAR HAR HAR HAR. 109 TO DOM: QUITE A SCENTS OF HUMOR US BATS HAVE HUH, DOM? ABSOLUTELY TASTELESS! 110 TO PAM: THATS WHAT THEY MEAN WHEN THEY CALL US MEN UNREASONING BRUTES! 111 AND BY THE WAY, I'D LIKE TO TRY TO TALK YOU INTO 80 COLUMN LINE ENTRY. 112 I HAVE A HARD TIME READING LONGER LINES THE WAY MY TERMINAL WRAPS THEM. 113 SOME PEOPLE CAN'T READ THE LONGER LINES AT ALL. TELLING THEM TO BUY 114 BETTER GEAR IS NOT CONSTRUCTIVE. (I KNOW YOU DIDN'T DO THAT, BUT 115 SOMEONE SUGGESTED IT WAY BACK TWO OR THREE DISKS). HAVE MERCY ON THE 116 NEARSIGHTED - USE 80 COLUMNS - AND I'LL BEG MIKEY FOR A PROGRAM THAT 117 STORES 80 COLUMN RECORDS IN THE FILE TO GIVE MORE LINES PER DISK. 118 TO MIKEY: PLEASE NOTE ABOVE BEGGING 119 LONGWINDEDLY YOURS, 120 )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))BATPOOP, the MAGNIFICENT++++++++++++++ 121 TO: BATPOOP 122 I TOO AGREE ABOUT THE INTERESTING ASPECT OF THE ZERO THING. AS FOR THE ALTERNATE 123 SIDE, THE PROBLEM THAT I SEE IS THAT THE ENGINEERING TYPES RUN INTO A PROBLEM 124 FROM THEIR STANDPOINT SUCH THAT IF THE RESULT DOES COMEOUT ZERO THEN THEIR 125 ANSWERS WILL BE INCORRECT. IT WOULD SEEM TO ME THAT THIS WHOLE PROBLEM COULD 126 BE SOLVED BY EITHER 1.) FORGET THE WHOLE BLOODY MESS AND LET THE MATHMATICIANS 127 HAVE IT THEIR WAY. 2.) WRITE OUR OWN HIGH LEVEL LANGUAGE THAT OPERATES THE WAY 128 WE WOULD LIKE IT TO. 3.) SHOOT THE MATHMATICIANS. 4.) SHOOT THE BUSINESSMEN. 129 5.) SHOOT THE PROGRAMERS. OR 6.)CONTINUE TO SHOOT THE BULL.... 130 AS FOR 80 COL.. SIGH.. I CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT, I DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO 131 THE SOURCE CODE FOR THE SOFTWARE THAT ALLOWED THAT (NOT THAT I WOULD PATCH 132 IN THE 3K OF CODE AGAIN THAT MAKES BWMS DIFFERENT FROM THE ORIGINAL. I 133 CREATED BWMS BY REFERING TO A SIMILAR SOURCE AND DISASSEMBLING WHAT I HAD 134 AND THEN PATCHING WHAT I WANTED. I AM NOT EVEN SURE THE 78 COL SOURCE WOULD 135 RUN ON THIS PARTICULAR MACHINE. ANYWAY, EVEN GIVEN THAT, THE SOURCE IS BURNED 136 INTO 2708 EPROMS, AND I HVE NO WAY TO BURN THEM ANYMORE. AS FOR THE WAY DATA 137 IS STORED, IT IS STORED AS ONE LINE PER SECTOR ON THE DISK. WHICH IS A HARDWARE 138 LIMITATION. THERE IS NO OPERATING SYSTEM. WHAT YOU SEE 'IS' THE OPERATING 139 SYSTEM! RAM SIZE IS 1K EPROM SIZE IS 8K DISK SIZE IS 18 SECTORS PER TRACK BY 140 35 TRACKS WITH THE FIRST SECTOR RESERVED FOR THE SYSTEM (MARGIN INFO, LAST LINE, 141 ECT.) I DID NOT WRITE THE MAIN LINE CODE AND I TAKE NO CREDIT (OR DISCREDIT) 142 FOR IT. I AGREE THAT IT WOULD BE NICE TO CHANGE THINGS, BUT I AM LOATH TO 143 FOR BOTH THE ABOVE STATED REASONS, AND THE FACT THAT BWMS IS ONE OF THE MOST 144 RELIABLE COMPUTERS I HAVE EVER SEEN AND I REALLY DON'T WANT TO MUCK WITH THAT. 145 IF EVERYONE USES 80 COL MESSAGES, THE ONLY DISADVANTAGE IS THAT THE DISKS 146 WILL BE CHANGED FASTER. AS FOR ME, I ARCHIVE THEM IN CPM FORMAT SO IT 147 DOESN'T MATTER SINCE THE DISKS ARE RECYCLED AFTER BEING ARCHIVED. 148 ******* CISTOP MIKEY ******* 10:00PM ******** 15 SEPT 80 *************** 149 If I try to insult you, it's a sure sign that I like you. 150 If I can't insult you, it's a sure sign that you like me. 151 If I haven't insulted you yet, BE PATIENT! 152 153 ================================================ 154 Besides the well-known /0, there are plenty of other mathematical functions 155 that can have illegal input. Trying to take the log of 0 or a negative number, 156 the arcsin or arccos of a number greater than 1, and some others. Most of us 157 don't deal in these things, so they aren't mentioned. But I think that we have 158 to provide for illegal operations. 159 For simple programs that input data, do only a little manipulation, and 160 then output the result, a no-error return of /0 might be visible and correctible. 161 But many programs take data from files, do extensive modifications, then output 162 the data to other files. Maybe never even seen by human eyes. In that case, 163 allowing an illegal operation could result in the contamination of large amounts 164 of data, possibly quite important. And even if you suspected an error, you 165 would have no clue where it happened. 166 A program is called 'robust' if it can be fed all sorts of nonsense 167 data, and operate properly on it. The consists of error checking and traps 168 to make sure that if Garbage gets in, much less Garbage gets out. Programs 169 needn't be robust if they are written by an individual for himself, since 170 he can control the data they are run on. 171 ==============================================P. V. Jeltz================ 172 ^^-^^^-^^^^^-^^^^^^^-^^^^^^^^^^^-^^^^^^^^^^^^^-^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^-^^-^^^-^^^^^ 173 D.O.M: Reguarding your example of the slope of a vertical segment, 174 That is not an example of 0,0 because slope is defined as dy/dx. 175 176 While there is a zero in the denominator, the value for dy is non- 177 zero for a segment or a line. So, you end up with a situation like: 178 5/0, 11/0, inf/0 (in the case of a vertical line), etc. These all 179 fall under the set of UNREAL numbers. The only example of 0/0 is 180 when dy=0 and dx=0 (ergo, a point) and a point can have any slope 181 you want to assign to it. 182 183 Alas, the time has come to leave your fair Inn. I must now venture forth into 184 the world of acadamia. To all of you, my thanks. To Aaron, Tron, Pam, 185 Charlotte, Batpoop, Master, Leonard, and even to (un)signed, and any one else, 186 I will miss your discussions. But my special thanks goes to Mikey and his 187 GREAT!!! system. To all, farewell. 188 189 P.S. I'll be around until Sunday, so if you want to make any final comments 190 about 0/0=R and the UNREAL numbers, hurry. 191 192 FAREWELL THE DOCTOR 193 ^^-^^^-^^^^^-^^^^^^^-^^^^^^^^^^^-^^^^^^^^^^^^^-^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^-^^-^^^-^^^^^ 194 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~ 195 196 Doctor: I was speaking, of course, in terms of conventional mathematics 197 (which everyone with the exception of yourself uses) by which any REAL num- 198 ber (zero or otherwise) divided by zero is undefined. Had I any desire 199 to take into consideration your "UNREALs", I would have no basis for doing 200 so, as you have made no attempt to define the operations which are legal 201 and closed in this group, nor the properties which govern them. By 202 "academia" I presume you are speaking of your first year of college. Per- 203 haps there you will have the opportunity to learn the basics of math- 204 ematics, if you concentrate your efforts on doing so, rathar than cor- 205 recting your instructors. I sincerely hope, Doctor, that you never get 206 your hands on a scalpel, but if you do, please employ it practicing surgery 207 on yourself, beginning preferably with fingerectomies (I suspect your ins- 208 structors will also recommend a toungue-ectomy). Perhaps I speak 209 to harshly, but I suspect that if your patience will endure a year at 210 Miscellaneous U, you will then begin to recognize your limitations, and 211 only then will you begin to learn. 212 GOOD LUCK! 213 214 Dirty Ol' Man 215 216 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~ 217 218 Addendum: I just had to add this little semi-quotation of Anonymous 219 [formerly Signed (formerly Unsigned)] which more than adequately expresses 220 my point (although the exact wording escapes me): 221 "The more one learns, the more one realizes what remains to be learned." 222 223 Dirty 224 225 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~ 226 As to checking for illegal entries & correcting or rejecting them, even this 227 is not always enough: no entry at all may cause trouble. A good example of 228 this failed one of our Venus rockets. Seems that the FORTRAN compiler the 229 program was tested on set variables to zero until used, but the compiler 230 used on the real thing didn't, leaving garblagage. The rocket crashed. 231 Nothing in, garbage out. 232 233 If the subject of ethics were to be brought up again, would everybody just 234 guano, or?? In particular, in the last 2 issues of Scientific American is 235 an article on cooperation vs defection (no, not defecation) If we all work 236 together we gain, but sometimes it benefits the individual who cheats more 237 than the cooperaters, and indeed a few defectors can destroy the whole thing 238 There are things that can be enjoyed by a few, but if all tried, itcould 239 not be enjoyed. A pie can only be sliced so thin. If the choice is logical, 240 all who choose logically will get the same answer, and so your own choice 241 is a valid example of everyones; this leads to being able to predict the 242 "best choice for all", it's the same as your own. 243 We will give one million dollars divided (not by zero, i hope) by the total 244 of all numbers entered, to the person who enters the highest number. 245 Unfortunately the numbers entered included things like 10^100, called 246 a googol, and 10^googol, called googolplex, and several like sums: the 247 winner would receive something so near zero the number can't even be written 248 what woulLd you try?? 249 /////////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\< 250 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~ 251 252 PAM: I have always assumed that you were (or should I say "are") of the 253 feminine gender. It has just occurred to me, however, that "PAM" could be 254 initials for a name, such as "Phillip 255 A. Morris". So for the record, could 256 you please fill out the following questionaire. 257 258 "PAM" is my: 259 name initials other NYDB 260 [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] 261 262 I am: 263 Male Female Both Neither NYDB 264 [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] 265 other 266 [ ] explain_______________________ 267 268 I own a tobacco company. 269 True False NYDB 270 [ ] [ ] [ ] 271 272 (NYDB="None of Your Damn Business") 273 274 Thank you for your cooperation. 275 276 Dirty Ol' Man 277 278 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~ 279 280 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 281 WELL, I SUPPOSE I SHOULD DEAL WITH THE COMMENTS IN THE ORDER THEY WERE 282 MADE. I ORIGINALLY USED 126 MARGINS FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT THEY WILL 283 SAVE DISK SPACE. I CAN UNDERSTAND THAT NOT BEING ABLE TO SEE THE ENTIRE 284 MESSAGE WOULD BE FRUSTRATING, BUT I MADE THE UNWARRENTED ASSUMPTION THAT, 285 SINCE THE MACHINE I AM WORKING ON IS AN INEXPENSIVE ONE, AND THE TERMINAL 286 PROGRAM PUBLIC DOMAIN AND VERY SIMPLE, EVERYONE ELSE WOULD HAVE SUPERIOR 287 MACHINES AND/OR TERM PROGRAMS. THIS LITTLE BEAST ONLY DISPLAYS 40 288 COLUMN, AND WRAPS AROUND THE REST TO THE NEXT LINE. SINCE IT CAUSES 289 PROBLEMS FOR SOME, I WILL USE 80 COLUMN FROM NOW ON (MUST KEEP THE 290 PEACE!!). 291 ON THE /0 DISCUSSION, SINCE YOU DO NOT WANT TO HAVE THE PROGRAM DO 292 THE WORK, WHAT ABOUT CHANGING THE SET OF CHARACTERS THE COMPUTER DISPLAYS 293 AND ASSIGNING NEW CHARACTERS TO THE OUT-PUT THAT GIVES YOU PROBLEMS? AN 294 INFINITY SIGN (OR SOMETHING ELSE) FOR /0, AN ITALIC i FOR SQUARE ROOTS 295 OF NEGATIVE NUMBERS, ETC. THE OS COULD THEN BE PROGRAMMED TO IGNORE 296 THESE VALUES ON OUTPUT, AND ASSIGNED TO THEM THE VALUES YOU WISHED, WITH 297 A FOOTNOTE MARKING SHOWING THAT THEY WERE SPECIALLY ASSIGNED VALUES. 298 1) MY 1st NAME IS PAM. 299 2) YES, I AM FEMALE. 300 3) NO, I DON'T OWN A TOBACCO CO., NOR DO I SMOKE. 301 302 HELPFUL? I'M NOT A COMPUTER PRO, AS I'M SURE IS OBVIOUS, THOUGH I 303 DO HAVE SOME MINOR EXPERIENCE. AND I'M OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER WHEN ONE 304 LEARNED TO PROGRAM A COMPUTER BY USING CARDS AND A CARDPUNCH, WITH 305 TURNAROUND TIME ABOUT 3 HOURS. TURN ALL YOUR CARDS IN, AND 3 HOURS LATER 306 THEY COME BACK WITH "SYNTAX ERROR LINE 5". AH, TIME SHARE AND MICROS, 307 YOU HAVE MADE LEARNING SO MUCH EASIER!! 308 309 [][][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM.[][][][][] 310 Ah shoot, PAM. Those revelations take all the mystery out of your presence! 311 What are you holding back?! Dreamer 312 ...........................?............................. 313 AS YES...THAT FEELS SOOOOOOO GOOD. DO IT AGAIN...AND AGAIN...AND AGAIN... 314 FASTER...FASTER...FASTER!!! 315 ANYBODY GOT A CIG? 316  317 }[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 318 WHICH REMINDS ME OF THE JOKE: 319 MAN TO WOMAN, "DO YOU SMOKE AFTER INTERCOURSE?" 320 321 WOMAN RESPONDS, "I DON'T KNOW, I NEVER LOOKED!" 322 323 BESIDES, THE MYSTERY IS STILL THERE. YOU STILL DON'T KNOW WHO I AM, HOW 324 OLD I AM (THOUGH YOU NOW HAVE SOME IDEA), OR MUCH ELSE. MIKEY KNOWS MORE 325 THAN ANYONE ON THIS SYSTEM, BUT HE WON'T TELL. AHH, MYSTERY!!! 326  327 [][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM.[][][][][][] 328 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~ 329 330 PAM: GOOD GAWD! Your THAT OLD???..... 331 Just kidding. Actually, that doesn't narrow it down much. Believe 332 it or not, there are still schools that use batch processing via punched 333 cards. U of W for example requires the use of cards for their beginning 334 CS classes. I believe that PSU also did for some classes until recently. 335 Anyway, thanks for the above info. I am delighted that my original three 336 assumptions, premature as they may have been, were correct. 337 As to the two ongoing discussion of /0, one regarding mathematical theory 338 and the other regarding computer applications, I would like to address my- 339 self to the latter, as I am still awaiting a response on the former. 340 If I understand correctly what you (PAM) were suggesting, it would work, 341 and would probably be preferable to returning zero in most cases (with 342 the possible exception of business applications such as those previously 343 discussed [one must exercise extreme caution in what one says on this 344 system]), and in some cases even preferable to returning MAXINT. 345 There are some inherent problems, though. Although it has been a long, 346 long time (punched-card days) since I have used ForTran, I seem to recall 347 that it supports complex numbers. I am not aware of any basic interpretors 348 or compilers that do so, however. So, creatures such as SQR(-1) and 349 Undefined must be represented in memory as a string if they are to have 350 their own symbol. So the bulk of the data must also be in string format. 351 IN GENERAL (I stress these former words) numerical data is represented 352 in floating point format, so each number requires two bytes of memory, 353 one for the mantissa and one for the power of ten (simplified). In string 354 format though, a byte is required for 355 each character. So 132.56, for example, would require two bytes if 356 treated as a number and six bytes if treated as a string. Where division 357 is involved, you will almost inevitably have greater than two digits 358 to deal with, so the memory requirements would be much greater. 359 Also this data would have to be converted to numerical format in order 360 to perform any computations and prior to this it would have to be checked 361 for the non-convertable values SQR(-1) 362 and Undefined in order to prevent errors. All this manipulation would 363 take the computer about as much time as all this typing has taken me. 364 Pardon my lack of brevity. 365 366 Dirty Ol' Man 367 368 DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~DOM~ 369 Let's hear it for verbosity! 370 ==========-----------========== 371 HERE, HERE!!! 372 THERE, THERE!!! 373 WHERE, WHERE??? 374 ------------------------------- 375 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 376 WELL, IT SEEMS THAT WE HAVE A PROBLEM OF MATH, AND NECESSARY APPLICATIONS, 377 THAT CAN'T BE SOLVED WITH THE FORMS OF MATHEMATICS AVAILABLE. ARE YOU 378 PLANNING ON INVENTING A NEW MATH TO TAKE THESE PROBLEMS INTO ACCOUNT? IF 379 NOT, THEN AREN'T YOU PUTTING THE HORSE BEFORE DESCARTES? 380 381 ALL THAT FOR A LOUSY JOKE. SORRY FOLKS..................... 382 383 [][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM.[][][][][][] 384 Pam, using a special character like italic i for sqr(-1) is very dificult, 385 as most computers have no such character. In general (where have I heard 386 this before) the business computers have very simple graphics or none at 387 all since it wasn't considered useful. The home computers are more closely 388 related to video games, and are more modern, so they may have fairly good 389 graphics, but in contrast fall down in such things as memory or disc size. 390 This is changing rapidly, soon just abut anything will have graphics. Your 391 simple machine is likely more advanced than you think. 392 I still haven't seen any use for /0 , all comments have either been math 393 errors, or involved checking for 0, not dividing by it. 394 Dom, you asked about bat caves, and how bats excrete, soo If you are truly 395 dirty, you should love bat cave, they are the most disgusting things on 396 earth. Bats have the most parasites of any known species. Of course the 397 best (worst) caves harbor vampires, as GIGO , or as here liquid in, liquid.. 398 you will never forget the smell, no matter how hard you try. I cannot 399 believe anyone who had seen and smelled guano would call himself after it. 400 401 Last night I noted the question of cooperating or defecting, and said it 402 was an issue of ethics. Since noone answered I will say we must stop all 403 defectors before they hurt us. We call defectors criminals, but in the USA 404 we have this funny idea about prior restraint, and punish crimes only after 405 they are committed. This is wrong: by the time we get around to punishing 406 someone for a crime, the law has already failed: the crime has been done. 407 Putting them ih jail afterwards only lets them learn from the older criminal 408 ///////////////////////////////////BAD 1739pm 16 sep 83\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 409 ******* 410 411 _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ 412 - Gee, all this discussion. Leave for a few days and what do I get? I missed - 413 - an entire disk of neat stuff! - 414 - Maybe a way of error-trapping zero would be for the language to start - 415 - out error-trapping zero and substituting some neat number (0 or infinity) - 416 - in place of the divide-by-zero problem. For those who want errors when di- - 417 - viding by zero, a command (NZT, No Zero Trap?) would be available to allow - 418 - divide-by-zeros to be error-trapped by the user. - 419 - By the way, what are you people out there using to pause output? Just - 420 - a bit curious.......................................................Pioneer - 421 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- 422 Gee? just what could that be? 423 i rely do wonder hmm... 424  /., 425 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 426 BAD, MAYBE I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE ASKING FOR. IF PUTTING 427 PEOPLE IN JAIL AFTER THEY COMMIT CRIMES IS WRONG, WHAT SHOULD BE DONE WITH 428 THEM? OR ARE YOU SAYING THAT PUTTING THEM IN JAIL BEFORE THEY COMMIT THE 429 CRIMES WOULD BE BETTER? HOW WILL WE BE SURE SOMEONE IS GOING TO COMMIT A 430 CRIME? I SAY THAT YOU ARE GOING TO ROB A BANK IN 2 WEEKS, SO LET'S PUT YOU 431 IN JAIL, OK? I JUST DON'T SEE HOW THIS WOULD WORK. COULD YOU GIVE US MORE 432 INFORMATION ON THIS. 433 434 [][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM.[][][][][][] 435 I see what he's saying. The answer is very simple. First, you make a tachyonic 436 memory device (TMD) which gives you a negative 100 nsec access time. Then 437 store and retrieve information on criminal behavior 1,000,000,000,000 times, 438 so you can predict a day ahead of time who will commit what crime. Lock him 439 up the appropriate period of time, and you're saved. 440 This, though, is like the old joke: How to be a sucessful millionaire? First, 441 get a million dollars. Sorry, but it seems old dumb jokes are the rage these 442 days. 443 Here's a new dumb joke. 444  There's these two white hoodlums, one of which has just stolen some 445 government-giveaway cheese from a black in the ghetto: 446 447 Other hoodlum: "What's that you got there" 448 Thief: "Some cheese I stole in the ghetto" 449 Other hoodlum: "What kind of cheese is it?" 450 Thief: "Nacho" 451 Other hoodlum: "How do you know it's nacho" 452 Thief: "When I stole it from the guy, he said "Hey, bro', dat's 453 na' 'cho cheese!" " 454 ()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()() P. V. Jeltz()()()()()()()() 455 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 456 457 The predicting-the-future bit reminds me of an old Asimov story called 458 "The Endocronic Properties of Resublimated Thiotimoline". Anybody read 459 that one? 460 /Elberich\ 461 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 462 463 She walks softly yet stands proudly a beauty to behold 464 Her eyes look tenderly upon me 465 She speaks of love and happiness forever to hold 466 I turn speak of my love in return 467 Yet all I find is a steel door that is ice cold 468 I press on and pry open the door, for did she not speak of love? 469 As I open the door a fire from within engulfs me 470 and burns me to the floor. 471 Broken Heart 472 *************************************************************** 473 In recent years there has been a good deal of controversy regarding which 474 colour CRT ultimately produces the least eye strain on the operator. 475 At present, the display of 'light characters on a dark background' 476 predominates over 'dark characters on a light background'. However the 477 German standards suggest that dark on light is a better adaptation to 478 human capabilities and to the working environment, and strongly suggests 479 this for future CRT selections based on the following assumptions: 480 1. Unavoidable reflections are found to be less disturbing with dark 481 cahracters on a light background. 482 2. Less fatigue results from better match between luminescent levels of 483 document and screen. 484 3. The closer the luminescence of the screen is to the illumination required 485 for general office work, the lower the resulting eye strain naturally 486 caused between adaptation in looking from light to dark or dark to light. 487 4. Recognition of dark characters on a light background. 488 489 As a guideline, when displaying light characters on a dark background, the 490 contrast should range between 3 to 1 and 15 to 1. When displaying dark 491 characters on a light background, the luminescent level of the background 492 must be at least three times that of the characters. In any case, contrast 493 levels should be adjustable. 494 An excerpt from a paper on ergonomic design. 495 ********** CISTOP MIKEY ******** 17 SEPT 83 ********* 11:20AM ************* 496 Congratulations, MIKEY: You have redeemed your tax-calculation error b submitting the ergonomic tips above. People, 497 does this suggest to you that the operator, having chosen the contrast setting, is thus the prime cause of his own 498 eyestrain? Gee, maybe this reinforces the notion that we, must face the consequences for our own acts, however trivial, 499 shunning the popular notion (espoused by schools, governments, unions, media, and societal lazies) that "whatever 500 disturbs me is someone else's fault, and 'They' better make it right" (whoever 'They' is)! 501 Silent Scribe 502 ############################################################################### 503 BYE 504 505 OFF 506 507 %#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%# 508 A short note: 509 Computer languages have limited relationship to mathamatics.... 510 Proof: 511 Watch a Mathamaticions eyes when he sees in a computer manual: 512 513 A = A + 1 514 515 I have seen one go into a long hold.... 516 517 Computers are to be USED. If a hard definition for x/0 serves a useful 518 purpose, great! If someone says its illeagle, tell him to call tha 519 proper authorities. 520 the Phantom Glitch 521 p.s. how about a moment of silence for Osborne? 522 p.p.s. Kaypro is next.... 523 #%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#%#% 524 """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" 525 HOW OLD ARE SOME OF YOU GUYS OR GALS ON HERE????????????????? 526 """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" 527 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 528 - Poor Osborne - it looked promising, but didn't pan out... - 529 - To the above: I'm fourteen, young enough to want to talk about things and- 530 - also young enough to get bawled out for wanting to talk about things by my - 531 - seniors.............................................................Pioneer - 532 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 533 ? 534 535 WHAT THIS SYSTEM DO? 536 537 538 539 It sure is hard to tell all of the players without a program. Espescially 540 when the players keep changing their names several times on each disk! Even 541 so, the dialog here still makes all of the other systems that I use seem 542 backward, rigid, and artificial. 543 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 544 How about an opportunity for employment? 545 If you missed the ad in a recent Oregonian... 546 PGE is looking for a Communications Engineer to work in the Telecommunications 547 Department. We are looking for an all around sort of person with a background 548 in Electronic Engineering (and professional registration... or the capability 549 to be registered). Some experience in analog/digital design would be nice, 550 although this is not a major part of the job. 551 552 The primary responsibilities would be in systems level configuration of 553 telephone, data transmission, telemetry, mobile radio, and microwave 554 equipment. If you lke working on one thing for a month at a time, forget it. 555 Versatility is all-important!! 556 Familiarity with computers and power system technology would be great. An 557 FCC Second Class License (or the current equivalent) is a plus. 558 559 The working environment is mostly casual, but the ability to provide 560 services to other departments on a professional level is mandatory. 561 Compensation is very fair, and depends on experience. 562 Non-smoker definitely prefered!!!!!! 563 Contact Terry Conboy at 226-8384 between 8 and 4:30 M-F. 564 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 565 WELL NOW! 566 MIKEY - OK FORGET IT. I DIDN'T REALIZE THIS WAS ANYTHING BUT A STANDARD CPM 567 SYSTEM OF SOME KIND. AND IBM HAS ALREADY DONE WHAT WE WANT ON SOME MODELS 568 AND LANGUAGES - BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE MOST EXPERIENCE, OF COURSE! 569 WHAT IS THE SYSTEM YOU USE CALLED? 570 DOM - MAYBE IT WAS A TAD HARSH - MY OWN IMPESSION IS THAT MOST FIRST YEAR 571 MATH COURSES OR MATH COURSES OF ANY YEAR FOR THAT MATTER ARE DESIGNED TO 572 DRIVE CREATIVE PEOPLE AWAY FROM THE SUBJECT. AND THE ESSENCE OF BEING 573 A PEDAGOGUE IS THAT THE MORE ONE LEARNS THE MORE ONE THINKS 574 NO ONE ELSE KNOWS ANYTHING. 575 BAD - I PRESUME YOU MEAN BATPOOP AS OPPOSED TO GUANO - GUANO IS A SUBSTANCE 576 SOMETIMES USED FOR FERTILIZER, NOT ALL THAT NOXIOUS, COMPRISED MAINLY OF 577 *BIRD* POOP 578 BAD - I THINK YOUR IDEA IS BEING TRIED IN MOST OF THE WORLDS COUNTRIES 579 RIGHT NOW TO SOME EXTENT, BEING ESPECIALLY POPULAR IN THE COMMUNIST 580 AND OTHER TOTALITARIAN STATES. HITLER USED THIS SORT OF PREVENTATIVE 581 DETENTION ON THE JEWS, POLES, GYPSIES. HE HAD THE SAME IDEA YOU SEEM TO - 582 HE WANTED TO PREVENT SEDITION, AND HAD IDENTIFIED UNSATISFIED MINORITY 583 GROUPS AS ONE PLACE YOU GET A LOT OF SEDITION. REMEMBER ALL THOSE JEWS 584 LIKE EINSTEIN WHO DEFECTED TO THE U.S. WITH GERMAN SCIENTIFIC DATA IN 585 THEIR POSESSION. REMEMBER THAT INTELLECTUALS ARE OFTEN AMONG THE FIRST 586 TO BE IMPRISONED - AS THEY ARE OFTEN A DISSATISFIED LOT AND PRONE TO 587 ANTI-GOVERNMENT ACTS, TAKEN AS A WHOLE. 588 PIONEER - USE CONTROL-S 589 DOC - ADIOS - REMEMBER COLLEGE TEACHERS ARE JUST PEOPLE WHO NEVER GOT OUT 590 OF SCHOOL 591 DEAR SILENT - NOT ALL TERMINAL HAVE CONTRAST ADJUSTMENT 592 MIKEY - I HAVE WORKED A LOT WITH IBM 5211 TERMINALS WHICH GIVE YOU A CHOICE 593 OF LITE ON DARK OR THE OPPOSITE - I PREFER DARK ON LIGHT, BUT MOST 594 PEOPLE WHO USE THOSE TERMINALS REFUSE TO USE DARK ON LIGHT - SAY IT HURTS 595 THEIR EYES BECAUSE ITS TOO BRIGHT! DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO ME, BUT.... 596 PHANTOM - DULY OBSERVED - BUT WHY KAYPRO - THEIR SALES ARE ACCELERATING 597 AND THEY JUST WENT PUBLIC - YOU DON'T LIKE THE PRODUCT? 598 TO ALL: SHOULD WE GIVE OUR AGES? CONSIDERING ALL THE CHEAP SHOTS TAKEN HERE 599 ABOUT GROWNING UP, ETC I'M AFRAID TO TELL THE TRUTH - MY EGO MIGHT GET 600 SLAM-DUNKED ON THE AGE ISSUE AS A WAY OF RESPONDING TO AN ARGUMENT 601 ABOUT THE ORIGINS OF THE IBIS. 602 )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))BATPOOP, THE MAGNIFICENT++++++++++++++ 603 Mike, before you glorify the German standards on computers too much, consider 604 their placement of the all important return key: small and out of the way. 605 Dark letters on a lite background may be better in a brightly lit office, but 606 when I tried it here, it blew me away. I don't have enough control on the 607 contrast. The choice of lite on dark also has one other advantage: it is much 608 easier on the hardware. I like white, it seems many like green, but 609 beer bottle brown is very German. Any votes for red or violet? 610 As to preventive justice being totalitarian, does the current ratio of blacks 611 612 to whites in US jails mean anything to you? Or, since a man in the street with 613 a deadly weapon is perfectly legal, until after he shoots someone, of what 614 value is jailing him to the one he shot? There are far more honest people here 615 than criminals, the justice system should protect them. 616 Most guano in the US comes from bats: it may be just fertilzer when you see it, 617 but have you seen it where it grows? 618 //////////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 619 TO PERSON USING CAPS ABOVE : YOUR NO FUN! HOW CAN ANYONE GET MAD AT YOU IF 620 ARE SO POLITE AND AGREEABLE?! GIVE US SOMETHING TO BE MAD AT YOU FOR SO 621 WE CAN ARGUE ABOUT IT...... 622 TO: BAD THE KEYBORD STANDARD YOU SPEAK OF IS BUT ONE OF MANY. I DO NOT 623 AGREE WITH THAT PARTICULAR IMPLIMENTATION MYSELF. AS FOR MYSELF I PREFER 624 THE DEVORAK ARANGMENT, YET I CONTINUE TO USE THE OLD QWERTY KEYBOARDS BECAUSE 625 IT IS SO DIFFICULT TO SET UP AND USE THE DEVORAK. ALSO IT MAKES IT DIFFICULT 626 TO SWITCH BACK TO QWERTY WHEN YOU HAVE TO. MOST KEYBOARD DESIGNS ARE VERY 627 POORLY THOUGHT OUT. SUCH AS THIS ONE I AM USING HAS THE RET KEY SHIFTED ONE 628 KEY TO THE RIGHT. IT IS ALSO DOWN ONE FROM MY ADM3 WHICH MAKES IT REAL FUN. 629 *********** CISTOP MIKEY ******** 10:44AM ***** 18 SEPT 83 *****************