FILE ON MARGIN IS 128 STATUS: ALL ALLOWED NUMBER OF LINES: 629 1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask.... 2 ******************* REMOVED: 27 AUG 83 ******************************* 3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System) Mike Day System operator 4 ************************************************************ 5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON 6 THIS SYSTEM. 7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned 8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public. 9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system. 10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and 11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the 12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive 13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be 14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved) 15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on 16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'. 17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out 18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored. 19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake, 20 use the replace command to replace the line. 21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up. 22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system. 23 ======================================== 24 25 Another disk bites the dust......... 26 &%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%%&%&%&%&%&%&% 27 Shouldn't that be 'Bytes'? 28 ****** CISTOP MIKEY (GROAN.....) ***** 21 AUG 83 **** 2:14PM ****** 29 Picture a man on a street corner with a sign around his 30 neck, his hat in his outstreached hand..... 31 On the sign it reads: "UNSUCESFILL RITER" 32 Need I say more............... 33 ()()()()()()()()8)()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()(()()() 34 35 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 36 Ahem.... 37 If a person who sends his child to private school gets back the taxes it 38 would have cost to send the child to public school..... Do I, who have no 39 children, also get back my taxes? (actually, I don't have 12 kids, so send 40 me 12 refunds....) 41 the Phantom Glitch, 8/21/83 42 43 _/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\_/|\ 44 ----- 45 This disk is getting off to a sloooooooooow start..... 46 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% 47 HEE,HEE, NOT BAD GLITCH. 48 49 MIKEY, I KNEW ABOUT GERMANY, BUT I WAS MAKING A POINT ABOUT VERY CAPI- 50 TALISTIC COUNTRIES LIKE HONG KONG (IRONICALLY RUN BY THE BRITISH) NOT 51 SOCIALISTIC EUROPEAN COUNTRIES LIKE GERMANY THAT THE ANTI-TAX CONTINGENT 52 WOULD DISMISS OUT OF HAND AS BEING PRO-TAX. 53 CONCERNING STEEL MILLS THERE ARE SEVERAL REASONS FOR U.S. STEEL 54 THE COMPANY, NOT THE COUNTRY, BEING IN SUCH TROUBLE. 55 1. THE BIG OLD STEEL PLANTS IN THIS COUNTRY HAD SOME OF THE HIGHEST 56 PAID WORKERS IN THE WORLD AND STILL DO. WAGES ARE STILL QUITE 57 IMPORTANT IN THE STEEL BUSINESS. SOME SMALL STEEL MAKERS IN THIS COUNTRY 58 ARE DOING QUITE WELL, BUT THEY PAY 1/3 LESS THAN U.S. STEEL 59 2. THE TECHNOLOGY AT U.S. STEEL IS OLDER - THE NEW TECHNOLOGY REQUIRES 60 MANY FEWER WORKERS. 61 3. STEEL PRODUCTION IS A LOW LEVEL INDUSTRIAL ACTIVITY. STEEL PRODUCED 62 BY ARTISANS TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO LIKE DAMASCUS STEEL IS QUITE 63 COMPARABLE TO MODERN SPECIALTY STEELS. 95% OF STEEL PRODUCED DOES NOT NEED 64 TO BE BETTER THAN THAT. THE JAPANESE HAVE THE BEST STEEL PRODUCTION 65 TECHNOLOGY KNOWN, BUT THEY ARE GETTING RID OF THEIR MILLS AND LICENSING 66 THE TECHNOLOGY. THEY BELIEVE THAT THIS TECHNOLOGY IS APPROPRIATE TO 67 A COUNTRY LIKE ZAMBIA OR MEXICO. EVEN KOREA IS POISED TO TAKE SIMILAR 68 MEASURES. ALSO, THEY KNOW THAT THE ACTUAL PRODUCTION OF STEEL DOESN'T 69 TAKE VERY MANY HIGH LEVEL PEOPLE, AND SO THAT PRODUCTION OF STEEL 70 IN CONTRAST TO PLANT DESIGN WILL CONTINUE TO BE WAGE SENSITIVE AS LONG 71 AS THE STEEL MARKET IS A WORLD MARKET. 72 73 4. THEY KNOW THAT NEWER EQUIPMENT DESIGNS WILL FURTHER REDUCE THE 74 REQUIREMENT FOR LABOR, PUTTING PEOPLE OUT OF JOBS. THEY WOULD RATHER 75 BE THE COUNTRY FULL OF ENGINEERS, RATHER THAN THE COUNTRY FULL 76 OF UNEMPLOYED DISPLACED BY NEW TECHNOLOGY. IN THIS WAY THEY EXPORT 77 THE UNEMPLOYMENT CAUSED BY THEIR INNOVATIONS. 78 79 WHAT LEWIS MUMFORD PREDICTED MORE THAN 50 YEARS AGO IS NOW HAPPENING. 80 I REFER TO HIS BOOK TECHNICS AND CIVILIZATION. HE SAID THAT THERE 81 WOULD BE THREE PHASES TO THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION, WHICH HE SAID STARTED 82 IN THE EARLY MIDDLE AGES. HE CALLED THESE PHASES NEOTECHNIC, PALEOTECHNIC, 83 AND EOTECHNIC. IN THE LAST PHASE (CAN'T REMEMBER WHICH IT IS, EO OR NEO AND 84 AM TOO LAZY TO GO GET THE BOOK RIGHT NOW) INDUSTRIAL PRODUCTION WAS SUPPO- 85 SED TO GO FROM MASS PRODUCTION OF LOOK-ALIKES TO THE SPECIALIZED 86 PRODUCTION OF UNIQUE OR LIMITED EDITION ITEMS (AMONG OTHER THINGS). THE 87 OLDER MEANS OF PRODUCTION, THE LARGE SCALE MASS-PRODUCTION FACILITIES 88 WOULD EITHER CLOSE DOWN OR BE CONVERTED TO THE PRODUCTION OF MORE 89 HIGHLY INDIVIDUALIZED SPECIALTY PRODUCTS. THIS WAS SUPPOSED TO TAKE VERY 90 FEW PEOPLE. THIS PRODUCTION WOULD BE VERY HIGH-TECH BUT THE 'TECH' WOULD 91 TEND TO BE INCONSPICUOUS (ALA AURTHUR C CLARKE). MASS PRODUCTION 92 FACILITIES THAT STILL EXISTED WOULD BE MOVED TO RURAL AREAS AND MORE 93 PRIMITIVE NATIONS. 94 95 THE JAPANESE KNOW ALL ABOUT THIS. THAT'S WHY WHEN THEY MAKE DEALS WITH 96 U.S. AUTO MAKERS TO PRODUCE TOYOTAS OVER HERE THEY ARE NOT DOING US 97 SUCH A GREAT FAVOR, THOUGH IT WOULD BE CHEAPER FOR THEM IN BRASIL OR 98 BOLIVIA. THEY ARE MERELY EXPORTING OUTDATED MEANS OF PRODUCTION AND 99 KEEPING THE HIGH LEVEL JOBS AND THE MONEY. 100 101 ATLANTIC MAGAZINE, BUSINESS WEEK, AND SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN HAVE ALL 102 CARRIED ARTICLES ON THIS LATELY (LAST SIX MONTHS?) 103 104 SO THE ANSWER IS NOT MERELY MODERNIZING AND RETRAINING. IT'S ALSO 105 GETTING RID OF YESTERDAY'S INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION (ALONG WITH IT'S 106 OFFSPRING OF 60 YEARS AGO THAT WE'VE BEEN DEBATING HERE LATELY,"SCIENTIFIC" 107 MANAGMENT). 108 109 PERHAPS WE OUGHT NOT BE PUTTING ALL OUR MONEY IN NEWER WAYS OF DOING THE 110 SAME OLD THINGS. SHURELY NOT EVEN MOST OF US CAN BE PROGRAMMERS 111 AND ROBOT TECHNICIANS. THESE CATAGORIES MAY BE EXTINCT IN 20 YEARS. 112 113 MAYBE THE *REAL* JOBS OF THE FUTURE ARE HIGH TECH (OR LOW TECH) ARTISTS, 114 SCIENTISTS, DANCERS, WAITERS, STREET MUSICIANS. ATHELETES, ASTRONAUTS - 115 BUT I'M SURE I CAN'T EVEN BEGIN TO GUESS WHAT. 116 117 THE ABOVE JOBS ARE LABOR INTENSIVE AND CREATIVE. STRESS ON LABOR INTENSIVE, 118 BECAUSE WE HAVE ENTERED A PHASE OF TECHNOLOGY IN MASS PRODUCTION WHERE 119 PEOPLE ARE PHASED OUT VERY QUICKLY. 120 121 BUT THE SOCIETY WILL HAVE TO ACCEPT THAT THE PRODUCTS OF THESE PEOPLE 122 ARE WORTH BUYING, AND MAYBE OTHER LARGE SCALE ATTITUDE CHANGES ARE NECESSARY. 123 REMEMBER THAT THE MOVIES ARE STILL ONE OF OUR BEST EXPORTS. 124 THEY ARE A GOOD EXAMPLE OF HIGH TECH LABOR INTENSIVE ART. PROGRAMMING 125 MIGHT BE A BETTER ONE (TYPICALLY ONLY RELATIVELY FEW COPIES OF A PROGRAM 126 ARE SOLD AND MOST OF THOSE MAY BE MODIFIED BY THE CUSTOMER OR THE PRODUCER. 127 MANY OR MAYBE MOST PROGRAMS ARE NOW DESIGNED TO BE MODIFIED. THIS IS 128 EXACTLY THE KIND OF THING MUMFORD WAS TALKING ABOUT) 129 130 ANYHOW,....................... CHUCK 131 P.S. DON'T AGREE THAT MORE JOBS WERE CREATED BY INDUSTRY AFTER TECHNOLOG- 132 ICAL INNOVATIONS. CARE TO DEBATE? 133 BYE NOW, 134 ............................................................................ 135 136 137 138 139 The fact that US steel companies seem to be inefficient may not 140 be their fault. Sure, they pay very high wages, but here's why: The govt. 141 has (for the last 50 years, at least) been very pro-union, because 142 (obviously) unions are people-rich and people each have one vote. The 143 actions of the govt. (NLRB) are to force wage concessions that are 144 not justified by the market. When steel companies are otherwise inclined 145 to hold out, the govt. threatens. 146 So eventually the average wage rises to the point that US steel 147 isn't competitive any more, and everyone points their finger at the 148 companies. 149 }{{}{}{{{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{{}{}{}{}{}{}{{}{}{}{ 150 CHUCK: 151 You simply stated in far more eligent terms what I said on the other disk. 152 (re: US Steel.) As for debating, sorry no, I just like to blow off steam 153 now and then. As for the jobs issue, suggest you read up on the Luddites 154 of England. They felt the same way as you. (No, I'm not calling you a Luddite.) 155 ***** CISTOP MIKEY (SORT OF) ****** 21 AUG 83 ************************** 156 P.S. After rereading what I said, I find that there maybe a misinterpitation 157 of what I said. In that I stated that 'more' jobs would become available. 158 By this I did not mean to say that even more jobs then the current average 159 would be created, but rather that on an average for every job that disappears, 160 another wil take its place. Thru the yyears, the average number of jobs as 161 a percentage of those working verses those not has not really changed 162 significantly. What has changed is the definition of what is a job. Or maybe 163 I should restate that to what is not a job I.E. Unemployed. The very term 164 'unemployed' now has very bad conotations. Yet at one time it meant 165 independence. My how times have changed... Of course nowadays we call it 166 selfemployed and it is much harder to do because of all the gorvernment 167 red tape and such. Say there is a thought for you debaters to tackle. 168 Is all the red tape and hassle from the government a result of the mass 169 production industry needing workers (therefor needing to strangle out 170 the unattached so as to make them come and work for the mass producers.) 171 or is it the result of some other insidious plot to overthrow the 172 capitalist warmongering state? 173 *********************************************************************** 174 P.P.S. I thought I wasn't going to do any debating! 175 ************************************************************************ 176 ------------------------------------------- 177 It seems to me that what we are actually seeing here is the 178 first ripples of that 'golden age' of full leasure time that has been a SF favorite for so many years. 179 The basic problem though is even though we are on the edge of not having 180 to work for a liveing in the traditional sense theres no method evolving for people to 'make a liveing'. 181 Paul 182 ------------------------------------------------ 183 184 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 185 186 With our society working around the basis of paying our own way, and our economy based on consumerism, how is the 187 average person going to have the necessary income to support themselves or be good consumers as we shift from the 188 standard "job" to the self-employed. Our economy is geared around a large employed population ready to spend money on 189 the goods produced. Businesses will have to change their focus, and those that depend entirely on consumerism (such 190 as the retail apparel trade) will probably find it rough. It sounds like a massive restructuring of our economy is in 191 the offing, but I'm not sure of how so many unemployed people will survive. We need artisans, entertainers, atheletes, 192 etc., but we probably won't have enough of these positions available for the numbers involved. So what do these 193 people do? Kurt Vonnegut wrote a book called "Player Piano" about such a culture, and he seemed to think that the 194 chief effect would be incredible boredom for most of those unemployed, combined with lowered self-esteem. Many people 195 still believe in the work ethic, and measure their own personal worth by their work. I'm sure most of us are that way 196 too. People such as this that enjoy work would soon find something to do, whether they could make a living from it or 197 not. But they might still be hungry. How might we solve this? 198 /Elberich\ 199 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 200 201 BAD: I completely agree with your last comment on drive 'B'. You said what I 202 was attempting to say earlier, but seemed to say it much more clearly...I am 203 refering, obviously, to the relationship of marginal cost to average cost. 204 205 Mr. Eastlund...are you still out there, have you left any comments or did 206 you just not sign your name to them?? It would be nice if everyone sign there 207 messages with some identifying mark, and remain consistant! I know of some 208 names that are the same person! 209 210 P.S. I resent the assumption that all computer hackers are relativly ugly! 211 I don't consider myself the best looking person in the world, but I don't think 212 that I am ugly...am I a minority??? 213 214 Post-P.S. I can tell that we are all such good spelers! 215 Speaking (typing) of school...What do all you computer related people think 216 about the local school districts going head over heals into computer science? 217 I am talking about the high school-level...but grade schools/junior highs have 218 also delged deeply into the computer field. For instance, Reynolds school district just spent $56,000 on some new Apple 219 IIe computers (what a mistake!). The district bought some 36 new Apple computers 220 and, at the same time, sold all the rest of the computers (non-Apple) that the 221 district owned! The man responsible for this is Earl Phyllips, a "computer 222 expert" at Columbia High school. 223 224 Hee, Hee, Hee, wait until he meets me!!!! 225 I am in favor of the expenditure (not necessarily the brand of computer) toward 226 the computer science program...what does everyone else think??? 227 228 229 The sysm...system manager (big deal!), Reynolds High school... 230 :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: 231 To SYSM FROM TRON 232 Hello once again! Yes, our schools just bought 13 apples 233 also. I wish the'd get a computer of a much higher value than 234 an E!?!? The Apple IIe is just a cheap imitation of the Apple 235 II+ except with about 3 extra frills thrown in plus they charge 236 about 500 dollars more than the + costs. The only computer Apple 237 ever put out and ever will put out was the Apple II+. It's a 238 real good one. Personally I think that the LISA is a big 239 failure because of the built in software. If you could get rid 240 of that, it would be a GREAT computer. I think I'll just go an 241 buy a TRS-80 Model 16........ 242 243 TRON 244 ............................................................ 245 On the school/property tax etc discussion: I'm waiting for the fireworks to start in California. It seems that they had an 246 INCREDIBLE budget surplus at the time Prop 13 passed. They have been "living" off of this ever since. I understand that the 247 deficits started last spring........... 248 On unions/wages/automation: If your local store keeps 249 raising the price of some NECESSITY on you, you will either find another store, try to do without, or make it yourself.... 250 RIGHT? So while there MAY be some companies that are gouging the 251 workers (not many with current laws!), in most cases labor wants more than the company can afford (sooner or later) thus they 252 get their jobs automated out from under them. I find it hard to 253 believe some of the pay rates I have heard ($20/hr!). I hope that some day labor will realize that their constant pay raises 254 are why they need constant pay raises! As someone said earlier, 255 the laws are VERY pro-union. I wish someone would try to do a 256 COMPLETE economic model on one of the "supercomputers" & see what the "best" compromise between wages, profits, & inflation 257 is. They could at least get a reasonable guess. I'm SURE that the 258 IRS & all the rest of the alphabet soup have more than enough info to make this a reasonably valid simultion! 259 On the education bit: do any of you know where the "standard class size & classroom size came from? the answer may surprise 260 you (I can't vouch for its authenticity, but it seems to be right). 261 ________________________Leonard_________________________________ 262 HAVE A MINT CONDITION 1970 VW BUS FOR SALE. NEW CLUTCH AND PUT 263 IN NEW ENGINE 6000 MILES AGO. ASKING 1450 ON THE ADVICE OF THE 264 MECHANIC WHO HAS GIVEN IT TLC FOR THE LAST 6 YEARS. IF INTERESTED 265 CALL 297-xxxx AND ASK FOR STEVE, IF I'M NOT IN LEAVE A MESSAGE. 266 267 EXIT 268 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- 269 | I'm all for computer education, but I suspect that the schools should do | 270 | more research than what they have been doing. | 271 | | 272 | Tron, I think that built-in software is a good idea. The Lisa was built for | 273 | business, and as such, has the appropriate software built-in. If you don't | 274 | like that software, you can always load in other programs from the disk. | 275 | | 276 | I don't have any comments about all those things such as taxes and other | 277 | things except this: | 278 | | 279 | LEAVE ME OUT OF IT! ...........................................Pioneer | 280 -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- 281 282 dear Pioneer and TRON...You are obviously a couple of complete techno-nerds! 283 After I finished reading your messages, I could hardly stop laughing! Come- 284 on...if you are going to leave messages on this system, please try to be 285 literate and coherent. Your messages were pitifully inadequate! Let's improve 286 shall we? 287 Evan 288 289 ******************************* 290 ****************************** 291 292 Evan, please behave child. 293 294 *************************who 295 We outta have a rule that there will be only one PS per message, 296 and that it be no more than 5 lines long. 297 #$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$#$ 298 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 299 HI MIKEY! 300 301 P.S. ADAM TRENT HAS JUST POINTED OUT TO ME THAT YOU ARE THE SAME MIKE I 302 MET AT THE KAYPRO U.G. MEETING SELLING THE COPYLINK PACKAGE. HE WANTS TO 303 GET TOGETHER WITH ME AND SOME OTHER PEOPLE AND TAKE ADVANTAGE OF QUANTITY 304 DISCOUNT. HE SWEARS BY HIS EARLIER VERSION AND WANTS AN UPGRADE. I MAY 305 BE EDITING KUG NEWSLETTER AND WILL PUT NOTICE IN THAT ABOUT IT BUT ADAM 306 NO LONGER HAS THE FIGURES (REMEMBER, I'M THE GUY WITH THE DOW JONES 307 PROBLEM?). COULD YOU LEAVE NOTE HERE OR CALL ME AT NUMBER ON MY CARD PLEASE. 308 CHUCK 309 P.P.S. LUDDITE?!? MIKEY................MY FEELINGS 310 P.P.P.S. I REMEMBER WHEN PROGRAMMERS WERE ALL UNEMPLOYED. THE LABOR DEPART- 311 MENT IN 1969 HAD SPECIAL FUNDS SET ASIDE TO TRAIN PROGRAMMERS IN ANYTHING 312 ELSE. I WAS RETRAINED AS A LAB CHEMIST AND GOT BACK INTO PROGRAMING AND 313 CONSULTING LATER. MOST OF THE PROGRAMMERS IN THOSE DAYS GOT INTO SOMETHING 314 ELSE, CONTRIBUTING TO THE LATER SHORTAGE. THE REASON - CHANGES IN GOVERNMENT 315 AND TECHNOLOGY. IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN, TOO. BUT I'M MUCH SAFER NOW THAT I'M A 316 SMALL BUSINESS INSTEAD OF AN EMPLOYEE OF A BIG ORGANIZATION. THIS IS ONE WAY 317 THE BIG CHANGE CAN TAKE PLACE - ECONOMIC DECENTRALIZATION (BIG TO SMALL). 318 I AGREE WITH YOU GUYS UP THERE ABOUT THE LEISURE AGE. MY FEELING IS THAT 319 THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR AT LEAST 10,000 YEARS. OLD JOB DESCRIPTIONS 320 DISSAPPEAR AND NEW JOBS BECOME ACCEPTABLE, CONVENTIONAL CATAGORIES 321 OF 'WORK'. THAT IS, IF YOU THINK IT'S WORK, IT'S WORK. IF YOU POINTED 322 OUT AN ENGINEER TO A CRO-MAGNON MAN AND ASKED HIM WHAT THE ENGINEER WAS 323 DOING HE PROBABLY WOULD ONLY SEE HIM SITTING DOWN - NOTHING LIKE REAL 324 'WORK' ANYWAY. PEOPLE THINK OF NEW THINGS TO DO TO FILL TIME WITH AND 325 I AM OPTIMISTIC THAT THEY STILL WILL. WE CAN'T VISUALIZE EXACTLY WHAT 326 THESE THINGS WILL BE BECAUSE WE ARE NOW, NOT LATER. 327 THE TROUBLE IS TIMING. THE PROCESS OF ACCEPTING NEW CATAGORIES 328 OF ACTIVITY AS VALID (AND WORTH TRADING FOR) TAKES TIME. WHEN NEW 329 TECHNOLOGY OBSOLETES JOBS (CREATING ONLY A FEW IN PLACE OF THE ONES 330 OBSOLETED) THE REST OF THE SLACK IS TAKEN UP BY THE INGENUITY OF PEOPLE 331 AT THINKING UP NEW WAYS OF FILLING TIME. AFTER WOMEN WERE NO LONGER 332 NEEDED IN THE FIELD TO DIG POTATOES WITH STICKS, THE GUYS TOOK UP 333 THE NEW HIGH TECH JOBS IN HARVESTING AND WOMEN INVENTED THE NEW 334 CATAGORY 'HOUSEWIFE' (MY WIFE JUST SAID THIS IS THE OPPOSITE OF THE FACTS- 335 BUT ANYWAY....). IN THE PAST THESE TRANSITIONS TOOK MORE TIME THOUGH. 336 NOW THERE ARE SOME EXCEPTIONS TO THAT. THE MIGRATION TO THE CITIES 337 BECAUSE OF NEW TECHNOLOGY IN THE LATE 18TH AND EARLY 19TH CENTURIES 338 WAS RELATIVE TO THE SCALE OF THE CHANGE QUITE ABRUPT AND ENDED UP KILLING 339 MILLIONS OF PEOPLE. BUT ON THE WHOLE THE CHANGES OF THE PAST HAVE BEEN 340 QUITE SLOW COMPARED TO WHAT WE ARE NOW GOING THROUGH. IF WE ARE TO 341 AVOID REDUCE THE CURRENT REAL UNEMPLOYMENT LEVEL OF 20% IN THIS COUNTRY, 342 (AS MUCH AS 90% IN SOME COUNTRIES) WE MUST LEARN TO ACCELERATE THE 343 PROCESS OF NEW-JOB-INVENTION TO THE SAME PACE AS JOBS ARE OBSOLETED AT. 344 THE LONG RUN ISN'T MY CONCERN HERE AS MUCH AS THE PRESENT - THESE 345 PEOPLE ARE UNEMPLOYED *NOW* AND JUST IGNORING THE PROBLEM HASN'T 346 WORKED VERY WELL LATELY. 347 A THOUSAND FLOWERS MUST BLOOM HERE, AND SOMEONE HAS TO SOW THE FIELD. 348 PPPPPPPPPS. 349 FIRST PEOPLE UNDER 18 BECAME UNEMPLOYED. THEY SOLVED THAT BY PUTTING 350 THEM IN SCHOOL. THEN WOMEN BECAME UNEMPLOYED. THEN MINORITIES. THEN 351 THE HANDICAPPED. THEN BUSINESS MAJORS. WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL OF THESE 352 PEOPLE WAS LABOR SAVING TECHNOLOGY. THE CHILDREN ARE BETTER OFF THIS WAY 353 PERHAPS, BUT I WOULD ARGUE ABOUT THE OTHERS. THESE PEOPLE WERE 354 EMPLOYED UNTILL THE INVENTION OF LABOR SAVING EQUIPMENT THAT PUT THEM 355 OUT OF WORK. NEW JOBS WERE NOT INVENTED FOR THEM BY ENGINEERS OR 356 MANAGERS. THEIR UNEMPLOYED STATUS WAS JUST REDEFINED. THE 357 WOMENS MOVEMENT AND MINORITY MOVEMENTS OF TODAY ARE STILL TRYING TO 358 PUT THIS BACK TOGETHER. THE PER CAPITA PERCENTAGE OF "EMPLOYED 359 PEOPLE" HAS DEFINITELY GONE DOWN BECAUSE OF NEW TECHNOLOGY! 360 AND IT WILL HAVE TO BE DEALT WITH CONCIOUSLY AND IN AN ORGANZED 361 FASHION NOW. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN DEALT WITH SOONER, I THINK, HAD NOT MOST OF 362 THE VICTIMS BEEN NOT-WHITE, NOT-MALE, OR NOT-21. (OR OVER MANDATORY 363 RETIREMENT AGE).(OR MEMBERS OF THE THIRD WORLD) 364 WE ARE BENEFICIARIES OF THE SYSTEM AS IT EXISTS TODAY (AMONG THE 365 FEW) AND SHOULD BE EXTREMELY SENSITIVE TO THE DAMAGE THAT WE CAN 366 STILL CAUSE, EVEN (ESPECIALLY?) TO OURSELVES. (WHO KNOWS WHO'S NEXT). 367 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 368 EVAN, DONT BE SO RUDE!!!!!!!! 369 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 22 Aug 83 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 370 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 19:50 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 371 Can a whisper be heard amidst a merrily rowdy crowd? Will a tenative 372 smile be seen, though the Inn hums and bustles with enthusiastic conversing? 373 Such thoughts linger on the edge of her mind as she approaches the Inn... 374 Hesitation seizes her at the threshold, even as it always has, and she 375 pauses to observe what sort of people might be enjoying the Innkeeper's 376 hospitality. Safe in the shadow of the towering oaken door, she probes 377 their eyes and listens to their voices, collectively booming out into the 378 dusk...gradually, unconsciously, she steps closer; a smile begins curling, 379 unnoticed by the debaters...the rich variety of thoughts being thrown about 380 begins drawing her even closer, just as the meaty aroma of a stew, combined 381 with the sight of butter melting on freshly-baked biscuits entices those 382 weary, hungry travelers that find refreshment in this ancient Inn. 383 O Adventurer, your weariness causes a mirage to waver before your 384 eyes--be not despondant! You have indeed found the true Backwater Inn; 385 only the conversations have changed. Look there, it is Grey who quietly 386 sips his sherris; listen, did you not hear the somber voice of Dave, also 387 known as Humbug; and never underestimate our gracious host, the Innkeeper. 388 Many others mingle in silence, but I can still sense their presence... 389 Tell me your name, for I have interest in tales of your wanderings--! 390 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> d <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 391 CHUCK: Call you a Luddite?! Heavens no! (A little judicial poking here 392 and there maybe.) I'm glad to see that you have continued your direction 393 of your debate though. (I am not impressed with someone who will shift 394 his speech to match whatever he thinks the person or group he is talking 395 to wants to hear. (Does that mean I am not impressed with polititions?, 396 YES)) As per COPYLINK, I would be happy to sell you a package! The list 397 price is $99.95, and the group discount is $59.97 (quantity 5) The next 398 discount level is at qty 10 and is $54.97. 399 ********* CISTOP MIKEY ****** 22 AUG 83 *************************************: 400 P.P.S. I would agree with you that the job market is shifting, and rapidly 401 (in comparision to the past), but I wonder if things are not starting to 402 take care of themselves (at least partially) the number of women in the 403 'job' market is at an all time high (for this particular 'job' market). This 404 of course would have some effect on male workers (NO NO not that kind of 405 an effect!) as the jobs were potentially alvailable for them ... or were they.. 406 of course as you pointed out, these women in the job market are coming from 407 another 'job' market that was not accounted for in job figures. So how do 408 we handle those figures in reality? The information as to the number of 409 housewives could be obtained, but that is not what we need to know, we need 410 to know the effect all this will have on future job availability. 411 As for the coming age of leizure, I doubt that it will come to pass, 412 I don't think anybody could stand not being a productive part of society 413 (apart from the usual minority that you will always have.) Something 414 will be brought into being that can provide for this need. I don't think 415 we will see a return to the ditch digger, but I would not be surprised 416 to see the return of specific labour skills such as were found in those 417 building structures many years ago. since more tools and will be available, 418 and the material will be less of a concern in the cost. It would seem that 419 the increase in skilled labour in producing something will become important. 420 One thing I have found is that there are levels at which people will purchase 421 things, it has nothing to do with any special thing about a product, they 422 will simply look for the best item that will suit their needs within a 423 specific price range. Never mind if something much cheaper can serve as well, 424 they are bound and determined to buy at the level they want because of 425 preceived value. Therefore if the cost of producing an item goes down because 426 the labour involved in producing it is drasticly cut, then is it not 427 feasible that someone will figure out a way to put that labour back in 428 so as to maintain the desired price range of the product? 429 **.***** CISTOP MIKEY (AM I STILL NOT DEBATING?) *********************** 430 Ahhh a fresh breeze wafts thru the Inn carrying with it a fragrence 431 of green. A presence is felt then a peel of laughter echos thru the 432 Inn, and all turn with similes aglow to see the wanderer returned. 433 Welcome to this most humble of Inns O gracious Lady of the dragons. 434 ************ CISTOP MIKEY YET STILL ****** 22 AUG 83 ***************** 435 What is putting people out of work isn't just new machines replacing them, but 436 rather their inablity to move into the jobs created by the machines. In other 437 words, mostly lack of education. For example, a filing clerk is replaced by a 438 computer, even if the computer must be programmed, she is out of a job because 439 she can't program. The same thing is killing the US steel industry: the 440 business has changed, and they haven't kept up. Production jobs are dying out, 441 replaced with machines; "service" jobs are beocoming much more common. There 442 may always be a janitor pushing a broom, likewise barber, gardner, artist, etc. 443 The new technology creates many new jobs: hifi salesman, programmer, 444 TV cameraman,computer repairman, hazardous waste chemists, astronauts. But these 445 jobs are not for just anyone; they require special training. The trend seems 446 to be toward 2 classes: high tech workers & managers, and laborers who merely 447 run the machines. We need more computer education because everything will be 448 computerized in the future, the jobs that don't use them will be things like 449 garbage collector, but I suspect what we know as programmer will be obsolete 450 soon, too. 451 ////////////////////////BAD\\\\\\\\\\ 452 Yes, yes, I know. But hasn't anyone on this sytem learned the value of 453 concise, to-the-point messages? More than one person above has taken a 20-line 454 thought and turned it into a 60-line message. Sure it's yours to do with what 455 you wish, but can't you concentrate your ideas just a bit? 456 ========================================================================= 457 ******************************************************************************** 458 THE PRINCE IS ROUSED FROM HIS ENNUI BY A FAMILIAR VOICE IN THE INN 459 THE BACKWATER DEBATING SOCIETY CAN HOLD ONE'S INTEREST ONLY SO LONG... 460 HE WELCOMES THE FAIR LADY'S RETURN FOR SHE HAS BEEN SORELY MISSED, 461 NOW MAYBE WE CAN RETURN TO SOME NONSENSICAL BUT ENJOYABLE FANTASY 462 DP 463 ******************************************************************************** 464 465 A small figure sits in a corner listening to the debaters. Occasionally, a comment 466 brings a smile to his lips, but it fades quickly. 467 Suddenly there is a change... he seems to be trying NOT too look towards the 468 door. Can it be? He fears disapointment, but gathering his courage he risks a 469 glance. The shadows make it diffucult to be certain but.... yes! It is she! She 470 has returned! Now his face is filled with joy as he drinks a silent toast 471 in anticipation of the tales to come. 472 Welcome, Oh Ladye of Dragons. 473 .....................the apprentice.......................... 474 OH NO ..... NOT AGAIN ! 475 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 476 477 478 479 a new day dawns on the backwater........... 480 481 a hullo to dp and dl, 482 483 Aaron of days past 484 485 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> 486 Evan, 487 Your comments are utterly rude and disgusting. You'Ve been 488 told this same thing by others, so if you don't have something 489 nice to say, don't say it! 490 491 Pioneer, 492 I understand that, I think that the Apple computer corp. 493 vastly overcharge their computers. 1200 dollars for a 32k 494 apple without a d drive?!? They added that software just so 495 they could throw in an extra 2000 bucks in price. I wish they'D 496 get off this 6809 stuff, it's getting boring. Why not get a 497 higher vaule microprocessor like the Z80a or Z80b? I understand 498 that the Lisa has a M68000. A TRS-80 Model 16 can do 3 users at 499 once without modification. The Lisa can't. It should do as much 500 as the 16 for it's price! So, until then, GET WITH IT APPLE! 501 502 TRON 503 I AGREE WITH YOU TRON 504 505 ........................................... 506 To: Sysop Mikey 507 Fm: Stan the Man 508 Sj: Cleveland, OH 509 510 Might come and see you guys sometime Thursday P.M.... 511 512 I understand Cleveland want to see me today...was unable to 513 make it as there were many chores to be done..... 514 515 Later on...in 4 space, 516 Stan the Man 517 518 ************** 519 I FIND MYSELF A LITTLE SUSPICIOUS. HOW MANY OF YOU GUYS HAVE TWO PSEUDONYMS. 520 I CAN'T BELIEVE ALL THESE MOON GAZERS JUST HOPPED OUT OF NOWHERE TODAY. 521 SOME OF YOU MUST BE THE SAME PEOPLE THAT WERE DOING THE SCHOOL DEBATE IS MY 522 CONCLUSION. SO ZAT'S HOKAY BUT YOU YUST VATCH OUT FOR DU TRANCENDANTLY 523 EVIL PROSE OF................... 524 BATPOOP THE MAGNIFICENT 525 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^*****************((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((() 526 BAD I WONDER WHY MOST OF THE JOBS YOU MENTIONED REQUIRE I.Q.s IN THE TOP 527 20 PERCENT. MOST PEOPLE AIN'T GONNA BE RETRAINED FOR THIS TYPE OF STUFF. 528 SPECIALLY THEM OF US WHAT SAYS AIN'T A LOT. 529 530 DEAR ========================, 531 10-4 532 533 DEAR MIKEY, PRICE SOUNDS GOOD WILL CONTACT YOU HOPEFULLY AFTER NEXT KUG 534 MEETING. 535 CHUCK 536 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ 537 Hey you guys. As I said before, I'm me. I've always been me. And I will 538 probably always be me. And I'm not anyone else 'neither. No pseudonyms. 539 Sure I'm me. Who else would I be, anyway? I'm very satisfied being myself. 540 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Me<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 541 If you are ME, then who am I???? 542 543 544 ################################ 545 I know who I am, and I know who You are. How do I know? When I close my 546 eyes, You all go away. (it's so simple when you think it out) 547 the Phantom Glitch 548 H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H-H=H- 549 550 551 HI THERE GLENN HOW'S IT GOING. 552 WE GOT A NEW TI-99/4A MINUS A MONITOR TH 553 554 ERIC SWENSON 555 E 556 X 557 ABORT 558 559 560 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 561 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 562 *********************** ALTERED STATES ******************************* 563 How can we look backwards into ourselves to understand what the true nature 564 of our being is. What is the basis of the universe what is the true nature 565 of reality. Keep looking inward inward inward inward inward inward. 566 Do we find the answer no one knows 567 How deep with in is the answer. 568 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ d: Me, somber? Hmmm... *twinkle twinkle* ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 569 570 571 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 572 Yes, but don't look too far inward, or for too long. You might get lost 573 in your own ego, and find that you have lost the ability to perceive the 574 universe as anything other than an extension of yourself. I know that 575 it can't be proven that the universe isn't just an extension of you, but 576 that thought pattern still interferes with the ability to communicate. 577 578 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM[][][][] 579 HELLO 580 581 JUST THOUGHT THAT i7d saI'd say Hi. . . . . . 582 583 you guys are all wet (gals also). 584 585 A wise man once told me.......search for, hunt for, 586 quest for, hunger for ........the meaning of life. 587 588 The truth of it is hard to realiize. The hope for it 589 is real.....can it be far off? 590 591 #-+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 592 THE ABOVE WAS PAID FOR BY THE 42 COMMITTEE. X*14 CALLING 593 #-+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 594 I think I know why Mike changed the disk . . . . 595 ********************************************************* 596 To PAM: 597 I noticed that I have neglected to say hello and 598 welcome to you. Let me hereby rectify that. "Hello!" and 599 "Welcome!" I am sorry to have not said so earlier, but my 600 time here is short and must be grasped at odd moments, and 601 I am afraid that I have not given the attention that is 602 properly due to the customers of my most humble Inn. 603 In you comment from a previous disk - I thank you greatly 604 for such kind and gracious words. May your stay here be 605 pleasent and merry. (And for the sake of my customers and 606 myself, may your vists here be frequent!) 607 ******* CISTOP MIKEY ***** 10:59PM ****** 24 AUG 83 ****** 608 P.S. Would too much contemplation of your navel cause you 609 to turn into an orange? 610 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 611 THANKS MIKEY!!! AND, WHILE YOU MIGHT NOT TURN INTO AN 612 ORANGE, YOU MIGHT BE ACCUSED OF BEING A FRUIT!!!!!!!! 613 614 [][][][][][][][][][][][][]PAM[][][][][] 615 616 P.S. ORANGE YOU GLAD I SAID THAT?  617 618 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] 619 GROAN...... Say, if you were accused of being a fruit, and you were 620 a pilot, would that make you a ... fruit fly.....? 621 ****** CISTOP MIKEY? ****** 26 AUG 83 ***** 8:50AM ************* 622 << chOKE COugh hACk >> THat one was too bad for a groan...Good thing its hidden away on disk B, 'cos otherwise the patrons 623 would be pelting you with rotten--oh, no... 624 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- 625 Anyone know how to clean rotten tomatos off a disk?.. 626 *********** CISTOP MIKEY ******** 26 AUG 83 ************************** 627 HAVE WE COME TO THE THREE STAGES OF THE "BRAVE NEW WORLD" WERE EVERYONE 628 HAS THERE PLACE IN THE WORLD AND A CERTAIN PURPOSE-WILL -YOU WILL BE 629 A WAFFER POLISHER AND YOU WILL DO YOUR JOB RIGHT-ALL THIS TALK ABOUT-NEW