NUMBER OF LINES: 629 1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask.... 2 ********************** REMOVE: 4 JUN 83 **************************** 3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System) Mike Day System operator 4 ************************************************************ 5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON 6 THIS SYSTEM. 7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned 8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public. 9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system. 10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and 11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the 12 right to remove any and all messages which I may find offensive 13 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be 14 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved) 15 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on 16 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'. 17 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out 18 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored. 19 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake, 20 use the replace command to replace the line. 21 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up. 22 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system. 23 ======================================== 24 25 After re-reading the contents of disk B I think I'm about to croak. 26 ```````````````` 27 .............................. 28 Mike, why all the excitement about what an explosion in space sounds 29 like? If you are close, the vapors released will strike you, and who 30 knows what it would sound like. (Maybe "bang"?) The effect on your 31 radio is better known, though ("snap, crackle, and pop). 32 The other question is what would it look like. (Has anyone seen 33 one? The neatly defined blobs of fire are very unlikely, as these 34 would be caused by the pressure of, as, air. Also, they would be 35 MUCH SLOWER than in the movies. I suspect not very dramatic. 36 Next question: Why sword fights? That is obsolete even here, and 37 we are very primative. 38 Maybe we should just accept it as a movie, and not think too hard. 39 .................................. 40 While I do agree with you basicly, the main reason that I brought it 41 up was in response to the knee jerk reaction of the previous 42 message that stated that any noise heard in a space battle was 43 impossible as sound could not travel through space. After hearing 44 that same nonthinking statement for the umteenth time I get a 45 bit irate. Yes there will be noise, it may not be exactly the 46 way it is presented at the movies now, but it will be there. 47 Also there will definatly be a large electromagnetic shock wave 48 generated. This is not only known, it is a problem today. The 49 shock wave is so strong from an atomic bomb blast (when placed 50 at the optimal point) it can destroy electricall equipment for 51 hundreds of miles in all directions. This is not theory, it is 52 a proven fact.) Of course we would hope that by the time the 53 weponry generally shown is developed that some means of sheilding 54 ourselves from the shock wave will be developed. But keep in mind 55 the larger the destructive forces involved the greater the shock 56 wave will be. While the idea of debree generated sound is a nice 57 thing to throw in it is really not much to consider. the normal 58 distances encountered in the types of battles depicted preclude 59 debrees as being a source of the sound as often it would require 60 minutes to get back to the observer and in many cases hours or more. 61 since the sound indicated is of a more imediated type I.E. it 62 occurs along with the visual blast. This preforce indicates that 63 it must be electromagnetic in nature that they are using to repesent 64 the sound. A consideration here is that they may very well allow 65 the sound to be feed to the observer in order to get a desired 66 audible feedback. In a dogfight situation you need every possible 67 piece of feedback info you can get. In that type of situation you 68 fire your guns and or missles and get out fast not even worrying 69 to see if you hit the target, because the target is busy trying to 70 get you and you want to avoid that if you can. As such an audible 71 feedback of a hit would be very usefull to know. In laser weponry 72 they take it one step futher, since the laser has a very narrow 73 beem the destruction it performs is minimal. As such the desired 74 end is to destroy something vital (the heart of the opposing craft) 75 this turned out to be rather easy to do (although admittedly grusome) 76 you simplly look for large amounts of carbon spectra at the blast point 77 and if get it you've hit the pilot of the craft which is the idea 78 behind it. (I told you it was grusome!) 79 As for swords, I would tend to agree with you that they are a bit 80 outdated. A pistol would serve far better today. An M16 however 81 would not. It is to cumbersome to really do anything in close quarters 82 with about all you can do is use it for a very ineffective club. 83 A knife is a far better weapon ofr this type of thing as it is the 84 most manuverable of all weapons and the easiest to control while 85 retaining the kill capability of the others. And it has the advantage 86 of total silence in the kill which the others do not (even silencers 87 generate some noise). 88 As far as the speed of the explosion, I would actualy expect it to 89 be over quicker then shown on the screen. The explosions that are 90 shown are real explosions that are filmed and inserted in the frame. 91 the problem here is that there is lots of air to allow the burn to 92 continue and add to the explosion. I think you would find that in 93 space where there is no air to burn that the explosion would take 94 place faster and be far less spectacular. Also the debrees would 95 fly farther because of the lack of resisting air and no curving 96 trajectories because of the minimal gravity forces. This also 97 means that the debrees will be hanging around causing all kinds 98 of havoc which is seldom delt with in the depicted battles. 99 In air battles it is less of a concern since it falls to the ground 100 out of the way. 101 Well I guess I better shut up befor I catch too much flack for 102 shooting my mouth off on this system....... (boo......) 103 ** CISTOP MIKEY DUCKING THE RETURNING FLACK ** 30 MAY 83 ** 6:30PM ** 104 105 *=*=*=*=*=*=*= 106 107 ))))) 108 WELL, WELL, I BELIEVE NOONE REALLY CARES... 109 CISTOP MIKEY SHOULD(!) DUCK...CAUSE HE DESERVES 110 LOTS OF RETURN FLACK... HE SHOULD WORK ON HIS 111 SPELLING TOO. SIMPLLY TERABLE.!.!.! 112 HOWEVER, LEAVING AT^@ THIS..> 113 THERE IS NO SOUND IN SPACE...JUST WAVES. 114 STAR WARS CANNOT USE GUNS OR M16'S IN CERTAIN 115 PLACES BECAUSE GUNPOWDER CANNOT AND WILL 116 NOT EXPLODE THEIR. MY SOURCE IS A STAR WARS^I 117 EXPERT WHO IS UP ON THOSE STUPID FACTS. 118 THUS, THEY USE SWORDS. ANYHOW,^@ NONE CARES!^=^= 119 WITH THAT, I/M GONE. BYE-BYE^= 120 '''' ZEUS - WATCHING THE HEAVENS FOR ALIENS.. ''''' 121 TIME=^W?:58, WHERE ?=7, AND DATE=30-MAY-83...A 122 MONDAY FOR ALL THOSE IN^TETERESTED... 123 MEMORIAL DAY EVEN!^= 124 **==**==**==* 125 126 I AM INTERESTED THAT THE CONCEPT THAT GUNS COULD NOT GO OFF 127 IN STAR WARS. THIS IS VERY INTERESTING SINCE GUNPOWDER IS A 128 LOCALIZED CHEMICAL REACTION NOT RELYING ON OUTSIDE INTERFERENCE 129 FOR ITS OPERATION. NOW A BLASTER IS ANOTHER THING ALTOGETHER 130 CONCEVABLY SOME FORCE FIELD COULD BE GENERATED WHICH WOULD 131 INHIBIT THE BLASTER FROM WORKING, BUT THIS SEEMS A BIT ON 132 THE FAR FETCHED SIDE SINCE THE LIGHT SABER WORKS ON A SIMULAR 133 PRINCIPLE AS THE BLASTER, JUST MORE LOCALIZED, AND AS SUCH 134 WOULD BE AFFECTED BY THE SAME FORCE FIELD. ALSO IT DOESN'T 135 EXPLAIN ALL THE OTHER BASTERS SHOOTING ALL AROUND THE 136 SWORDSMEN. YA GOTA BE CONSISTENT GUY... 137 ***** CISTOP MIKEY YET AGAIN **** 30 MAY 83 **** 9:37PM ******* 138 139 140 I'M BACK!!! IT IS AMAZING WHAT ONE MISSES WHEN HE HAS NOT LOGGED ON FOR 141 A LONG TIME! ... 142 143 TRON, DID YOU GET YOUR 1541 WORKING??? 144 145 THE SYSM...DAVID GREENMAN (PRESIDENT, PROTRON DATA SYSTEMS AND A STUDENT AT 146 REYNOLDS HIGH SCHOOL.) 147 148 ======================================== 149 Tron, in response to you question on the Disk b, you must know that 150 most of the knowledge on black holes is theoretical. Eienstien's relativity ALLOWS, but does not REQUIRE the existance of 151 black holes. The same with white holes. We have yet to actually find one. (We think there is one, because of the warp in 152 a stars path that could only be cauwed by a strong gravity field, but we can't prove it's a black hole). Therefore, 153 NOTHING we "know" about black holes is proven to any extent. It's ALL theory. We also assume such a thing may exist. It 154 may not do that. After all, Einstien has been proven wrong on much of his work, so he cannot be taken on authority without 155 question. A shame. He was a great man. 156 Akonis 157 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 158 I disagree with the previous assertion that we can't prove that black 159 holes exist. First, we can demonstrate merely using mathematics that 160 an object of a given mass will have a calculated escape velocity greater 161 than c (speed of light) if this mass is concentrated into a sufficiently 162 small volume. So we must know the mass. This is calculable in the case 163 of a double-star system if you know the mass of the visible star (which 164 can be determined by luminosity and spectrum) and can detect the orbital 165 velocity of both stars (rotational period). This is easy, since dense 166 objects like black holes often give off bursts of energy (pulsars) and 167 the doppler effect is detectable. Second, we know that if a sufficiently 168 dense mass exists, it will radiate like a star or will be a black hole 169 and thus not radiate. However, the accretion disk itself can radiate, 170 so a black hole isn't perfectly black in practice (well, it is, but 'the 171 cat has been belled'). 172 ^IOf course, some people won't accept any forms of proof that they 173 can't actually see. In the case of black holes, that's practically a 174 contraction in terms. But remember that much of science was (or is still) 175 based on theories that could not be immediately 'proven' to everyone's 176 satisfaction. 177 ^II see no reason why a black hole should NOT exist. Put enough 178 mass into a small enough volume, and nature has no choice in the matter. 179 ######################## 180 To: David Greenman From: Tron Re: YES!!! 181 I got the disk working. Not only that, I got a new manual for 182 it! Did you say that you go to Renoylds High School? I go to 183 Corbett and pass right by there all the time. What a 184 coincidence! 185 186 Tron 187 ------------ 188 189 190 191 L;KL;K 192 193 |||||||| 194 195 Sound in space is nonexistent. 196 The fact is that since sound does not travel through space 197 then it cannot be detected by any sort of device that would 198 or could pick it up. 199 200 The creators of SCI-FI movies create sound in space to 201 give the audience a energetic feeling. For it is a fact 202 that 98% of a horror movies scariness comes from the sound 203 or music that is being played during that movie. Imagine 204 what people who can't hear think about movies. for them 205 98% of the movie is missing. 206 207 208 209 Syrinx ........ 210 211 212 |||||||| 213 TRON: 214 ^= 215 YOU SAID THAT YOU ARE 14, HOw LONG HAVE YOU BEEN PROGRAMMING/INVOLVED WITH 216 COMPUTERS? WHAT EQUIPMENT DO YOU OWN? HOW DID YOU LEARN IN THE FIRST PLACE? 217 WHAT HIGH SCHOOL WILL YOU BE GOING NEXT YEAR? 218 219 THE SYSM. (CLASS OF '86) 220 ^= 221 222 ---------- 223 To: 224 Someone above From: Tron Re: things 225 I have been programming for almost 5 years. I own a TRS-80 Model 226 I with 48k and 3 cassette decks, a modem and an Alpha Joystick. 227 I got my computer 4 years ago. I was dinking around with electronics 228 and stumbled onto computer programming. Now I know little about 229 electronics and a lot about computers. I learned computer programming 230 basically on my own. I went to 2 classes offered by Radio Shack 231 but didn't learn hardly anything. I just bought book after book 232 until now. I think that a person should find something out for 233 themselves instead of learning from a teacher. The most rewarding 234 thing about learning is discovering it yourself. It really puts 235 the mind to work. Anyway, I hope I don't go to Corbett High School. 236 That place has been arsonized and burned to a crisp. It stinks 237 very bad. I've smelled boys bathrooms that are better than this. 238 I would like very much to go back to Parkrose and continue 239 my education there. I don't like Corbett High at all. 240 241 242 Tron 243 ---------- 244 P.S. As of class of '86, I am class of '87. 245 ---------- 246 To: Black hole enthusiasts From: Tron Re: Black holes (duh!) 247 I do agree that black holes exist. But, how does it generate 248 a gravity field that strong? My teacher tells me that is spins 249 two ways at once and spins very very fast. But, take that same 250 theory and put it on earth. If we could make a ball spin at 251 about 500,000,000,000 rpms it should generate a gravity field. 252 No? I am just wondering. If the above isn't true, then what causes 253 such a strong gravity field? 254 255 256 Tron 257 ---------- 258 *************************************************************** 259 1) there is no "sound" in space because there is no air 260 to carry the vibrations - try it, put a buzzer in a jar and 261 then pump a vacuum, just see if there are any vibrations transmitted! 262 2) swords in space: try shooting a gun (any gun) and then see 263 if you have any air to breathe when the bullet pierces the hull! 264 ***********Grey Ghost****************************************** 265 TRON:^= 266 267 THE SYSM IS MY CALL LETTERS... IT STANDS FOR "SYSTEM MANAGER". IT WAS THE 268 PASSWORD TO THE MAIN USER I.D. FOR 269 THE COMPUTER SYSTEM AT REYNOLDS H.S. 270 271 AFTER TWO WEEKS IN THE CLASS (COMPUTER MATH I), THE TEACHER BECAME THE STUDENT 272 AND I BECAME THE TEACHER. I KNEW SO MUCH ABOUT COMPUTER HARDWARE (DIGITAL ELECT 273 RONICS) AND PROGRAMM^@ING, THAT I WAS 274 PUT IN CHARGE OF THE SYSTEM-FIXING ANY PROBLEMS THAT MAY COME UP. 275 I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED WITH COMPUTERS DIRECTLY FOR FIVE YEARS, THE LAST OF wHICH 276 I LEARNED DIGITAL ELECTRONICS. IT WAS EASY BECAUSE I HAVE A GOOD BACKGROUND 277 IN ANALOG ELECTRONICS. 278 JUST RECENTLY I FORMED MY OwN COMPANY (YES, AT THE AGE OF 15). IT IS CALLED 279 'PROTRON DATA SYSTEMS'. I SELL SOFTWARE AND HARDWARE THAT I OR MY FRIENDS DESIGN. 280 SOON I PLAN TO START MARKETING COMPUTERS AND VIDEO GAME MACHINES BY MAIL-ORDER. 281 282 283 THE SYSM...DAVID GREENMAN. 284 285 286 ======================================== 287 From: Tron To: David Greenman Re: things 288 289 I would be interested in trying out that thing at Renoylds 290 High. But, don't leave the number and I.D. number on here for 291 prying eyes to see. Leave it for me on the PMS at 245-2536. 292 If you don't want to, thats okay. Also, I am one to design 293 my own computer time-sharing system. I want to build one but 294 I don't know much about electronics. Could you help me? I have 295 another freind who might. Thanks...... 296 297 298 ^I Tron 299 ---------- 300 Also, I am also forming my own software company. I call it 301 "SOFTSTUFF". It supports the following machines 302 TRS-80 Model I and III 303 TRS-80 Color Computer 304 Heathkit H-89 305 Vic 64 and Vic 20 306 Apple II and Apple IIe 307 That is all. That isn't many. Maybe we can merge together to 308 form a stronger one. I am VERY VERY good at bookkeeping and 309 control organization. I am going to take a 2 year algebra course 310 in my freshman year. By the way, I am going to get myself a 311 TRS-80 Model 16 with a hard disk (as soon as I get enough money. 312 I currently have $18 and am working on $10,000.). I plan to 313 pick berries this summer. Well, why don't you think about it 314 and we will discuss it around. See ya! 315 316 Tron 317 ---------- 318 To: All concerned From: Tron Re: e=mc2 319 320 I am one to challenge Einsteins theory because I just don't 321 see any evidence that supporst his famous formula. Well, I may 322 be making a complete fool of myself, but I just thought I'd 323 express my opinion. 324 Take a spaceship and put it into space. Thrust it out 325 in one direction. Continue to do so. There is NO objects or 326 friction to stop it. So, if so, you should be able to thrust 327 faster and faster (assuming that you have enough fuel) until 328 you eventually hit the speed of light or even exceed it. According 329 to the formula "E=MC2", he states that Energy = Mass times the 330 speed of light. If this is true, then he means to tell us that 331 light is mass. But, mass is always solid. Not necessarialy to 332 the naked eye but is still solid. ^[That means that I am being shot with 333 tons of mass every second. So, the spaceship should become light. 334 Anyone have their say? I just thought I'd enlighten this system 335 up with a very interesting subject. But, I still think Einstein 336 was a complete genius. 337 338 Tron 339 ---------- 340 ----- 346 Probable-Possible, my black hen, 347 She lays eggs in the Relative When. 348 She doesn't lay eggs in the Positive Now 349 Because she's unable to postulate how. 350 -- Frederick Winsor 351 ----- 352 HUH? 353 ----- 354 I got a question. Why do scientists use "c" to represent the 355 speed of light? 356 357 Tron 358 ----- 359 IS THAT ANOTHER CHICKEN JOKE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? 360 yoke yoke yoke yoke yoke yoke yoke yoke yoke yoke yoke yoke yoke yoke 361 >>>>>>> Sir Innkeeper, gaze back into the past: scroll 605 <<<<<<< 362 363 TRON: 364 YOU ARE CLOSE, CONSIDER THAT THE MAXIMUM SPEED THAT A REACTION 365 CAN HAVE IS THE SPEED OF LIGHT (NOTE THAT THIS IS A CONSTANT AND 366 FIXED AS THE MAXIMUM SPEED WITHIN THE UNIVERSAL REFFERANCE.) THEN 367 CONSIDER WHAT YOU WOULD USE FOR PROPULSION TO GO FASTER. THIS IS 368 THE REAL PROBLEM. THE OTHER ASPECT IS THE INCREASING APPARENT MASS, 369 THAT BEING THE FASTER YOU GO THE MORE ENERGY THAT IS REQUIRED TO 370 MAKE YOU GO EVEN FASTER DUE TO YOUR APPARENT MASS INCREASING WITH 371 SPEED. ALL THIS COMES TOGETHER AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT WHERE YOUR 372 APPARENT MASS BECOMES INFINITE AND YOU REACTION CAN PUSH YOU NO 373 FASTER. NOW IF YOU COULD FIGURE OUT A WAY TOCONTERACT THE INCREASING 374 MASS AND FIND A PROPULSION SYSTEM THAT CAN REACT FASTER THEN LIGHT. 375 THERE IS NOTHING PREVENTING YOU FROM EXCEDING THAT BARRIER. 376 ***** CISTOP MIKEY ****** 1 JUN 83 ******************************** 377 THEY HAVE EARS BUT THEY DO NOT HEAR THEY HAVE EYES BUT THEY DO NOT SEE. 378 THE SOUND IN THE MOVIES IS NOT GENERATED VIA SOUND WAVES TRAVELING 379 THRU SPACE THIS IS OBVIOUS POPYCOCK. IT IS THE RESULT OF REGENERATED 380 SOUND VIA ELECTROMAGNETIC OR VISUAL TRANSLATION. I FAIL TO SEE YOUR 381 PROBLEM YOU ARE SAYING SOMETHING IS IMPOSSIBLE WITHOUT SEEING THE 382 MULTITUDE OF POSSIBLE ANSWERS. THINK! HAVE SOME DEGREE OF IMAGINATION! 383 ****** CISTOP MIKEY AGAIN *************************************** 385 **==**==**== 386 387 A few notes to ponder. First, why not use 'C' for the speed of light. It 388 is sure shorter then saying 'Speed of Light.' It is just consistent with 389 one of the first scientist, and it has been carried on ever since. Right 390 Mikey? Right. Good luck in challenging Einsteins theory. I have spent 391 a few hours studying the concepts of it, and I can see that you haven't 392 spent even a few minutes. Not knocking you, but how do you expect your 393 spaceship to get moving the speed of light? Gravity? (If you think 394 that that is a good answer, your right, but wrong.) Einstein at no time 395 says that light=mass. I'm not sure where you picked that one out of. 396 It is like a Centriod, massless, density=0. I suggest you look into a 397 couple books written on the subject, and you will see what I mean. 398 You will see the light, so to speak. Anyhow, I am not knocking 399 anyone, just trying to prove some points. Frederick Winsor was a 400 wise man^[Q! Also, scientist might use 'C'(though, not necessarily) 401 to represent it as a constant. Ya know, if everyone uses their 402 imaginations, we are going to get into a lot of B.S. I think 403 some facts(not rock hard ones) should be shown. Oh, and Mikey, 404 I still find it hard to agree with your concepts on gunpowder. 405 Let's leave it at this: Star Wars used swords to put both men 406 on the screen at the same time, and to show more action...the 407 heat of battle^[Q! Okay? Fine. Grey Ghost, your right. Try that 408 experiment, and you will see. Anyway, we gone, bye-bye. 409 410 Zeus, watching the heavens for aliens... 411 412 9:00 am, on this first day in June, 1983. Bingo. 413 414 **==**==**==**== 415 416 Tron: "c" as the speed of light derives from the Latin word 417 "celeritas" (speed). E=m*c^2 is part of the theory of relativity 418 but not the part that says you can't exceed lightspeed. Even if 419 I grant that you can accelerate past the speed of light, it will 420 take you about 1 year at 1 g acceleration (that's gonna take 421 LOTS of fuel!!) as measured aboard ship (I'm using special 422 relativity, not general so this isn't accurate), but to me 423 sitting back at home it would take an INFINITE amount of time! 424 Also by my measurements your ship would have a length (in the 425 direction of travel) of 0 and an INFINITE mass! The formula is 426 quite simple: (time on earth)/(time on ship) = 1/tau 427 mass of ship as measured on earth = (mass of ship)/tau 428 length of ship as measured on earth = (length of ship) * tau 429 tau = SQR( 1 - (velocity of ship)^2/c^2) 430 Oh, by the way if you are going away from earth at .9c and I'm 431 traveling toward earth (along the same course line) at .9c we 432 AREN'T approaching each other at 1.8c! At "high" speeds you 433 don't add speeds that way instead: 434 Relative velocity = (v1+v2)/(1-(v1+v2)/c) 435 If you think the results of these formulas are weird, you should 436 see what happens if you try figuring things out without them! 437 (you see the bit about the speed of light being the same- no 438 matter what speed you are travelling was an EXPERIMENTAL result 439 & these formulas turn out to be the ONLY way to have that result 440 without things getting TOTALLY fouled up. Things get strange 441 but there aren't any outright contradictions) 442 ___________________________Leonard__________________________ 443 As to sound in space, true a vacuum won't transmit sound waves. 444 BUT, I suggest that instead of a bell in that vacuum jar, you 445 try a firecracker (or if it is a BIG vacuum chamber - a stick 446 of dynamite!) you WILL get sound waves. BECAUSE THE EXPLOSION 447 SUPPLIES AN EXPANDING WAVEFRONT OF GASES!! Also, due to the 448 lack of resistance the fireball will expand faster & any lack 449 of symmetry will be due to irregularities in the explosion. 450 Most explosions will be roughly spherical. Oh, don't get me 451 wrong, I doubt that you could hear an explosion at any great 452 distance in space, but it IS possible. 453 As to gunpowder, would you believe that you can fire a gun in 454 a vacuum? You can, but in free-fall it could be more dangerous 455 to you than your target (recoil, y' know). The sword is a far 456 more practical close combat weapon than most people realize. 457 As Heinlein once said, "close fast on a man with a rifle and 458 he's in trouble, close fast on a man with a sword and you'll 459 get spitted like a roast goose". Swords went out for close 460 combat ONLY because they take too much skill & training for a 461 modern military force. (I know, I've been practicing on and off 462 for several years & I'm still an utter novice). It takes YEARS 463 of training to turn out a decent swordsman. (the FORCE must of 464 helped Luke!) I suspect that part of the reason for the swords 465 is the same reason the the US military still has swords (as 466 part of some dress uniforms) -- TRADITION! 467 ____________________________________________________________ 468 To: All From: Tron Re: e=mc2 469 470 As I stated before, I think that if you had the right 471 equipment and fuel, you could eventually exceed the speed of 472 light. But, take sound into account. There is no actual speed 473 of the waves that are sent out. If so, what are they? Light speed 474 is supposedly only attained by light istelf. I just don't see 475 how speded or sound could be limited if there is no friction or 476 blockades. Just like numbers; they go on and on and don't have 477 a specific ending. Really, nothing has an end if you think about 478 it. Also, does anyone have a good explanation of time and mass? 479 I been thinking real hard (it hurts too!) and couldn't come up 480 with any good ones. 481 482 Tron 483 ---------- 484 HUH? What do you mean "no actual speed of the waves sent out"? 485 Also ANY particle with zero "rest mass" travels at the speed of 486 light and CAN'T TRAVEL ANY SLOWER! Re-read what I said about 487 time-rates YOU might make it to light speed, but the rest of the 488 universe would have died during the last millisecond before you 489 reached it! I'm afraid that the slowing down of time at high 490 speeds has been measured, so it isn't just theory. However theory 491 DOES allow for things travelling faster than light! The catch 492 is that anything travelling faster than light can't slow down 493 to light-speed! Some people have suggested that it might be 494 possible to "go around" the "light barrier" instead of thru it. 495 A good analogy is the function: y = 1/x 496 If you graph it you will see that it approaches the Y-axis from 497 both sides BUT NEVER GETS THERE! 498 If you want I'll make a list of books, articles & formulas and 499 post it here. But I suggest that you find out what formulas 500 (such as E = Mc2) mean before you discuss them. Just knowing 501 what E, m & c mean doesn't mean you know what the FORMULA means! 502 _________________________________Leonard_______________________ 503 Yes I know. I had a science teacher that told me that when light 504 passes through glass, it slows it down some. I have read two 505 books about the theory of relativity and also did a research 506 paper on it. Is the above true about light? 507 508 509 ^I^I^I Tron 510 ---------- 511 512 Milady of dragons, 513 Ahhh you honor me with your music of words and color. A marvelous 514 and joyfully resplendent land do you depict outside of this Inn. 515 The land not as barren as once it was with the ravages of warfare 516 overflowing from the desputes in this Inn. Your touch has brought 517 beauty and light where befor there was nought. Though often it seems 518 futile in the attempt to maintain a lighter mood in the tavern. 519 Maybe an improvement can at least be made. A tavern should be for 520 joy and relaxation and not for war. Without this release there 521 is no escape from the presures of life without. 522 ** CISTOP MIKEY Innkeeper of the Backwater Inn ** 2 JUN 83 ** 3:30PM ** 530 532 533 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 534 Tron, 535 Your confusion about gravity can be relieved by understanding that 536 the gravitational force is only a function of the mass of an object. 537 It might be possible that an object spinning at a rate such that the 538 outer surface approached the speed of light. Since the mass increases 539 dramatically as the velocity nears 'c', this could increase the 540 gravitational field. 541 The most obvious proof of the e=mc^2 formula is in the development 542 of nuclear energy and weapons. The conversions of nuclear particles 543 to energy helps keep your lights (and your computer) on in Corbett. 544 ^I^I^I^IAnalog Alan 545 {}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{} 546 MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM 547 548 I agree that sound would be a great way to supply a space fighter pilot some 549 feedback on what is going on around him. And also makes for better theatre. 550 STAR WARS is space opera, not science fiction. Blade Runner was science fic- 551 tion. (GHOD, do I love STAR WARS!!! I, II, and III!!!) It was said repeat- 552 edly that the light sabre was the TRADITIONAL weapon of a Jedi Knight. So 553 what if it's out of date? (a crossbow is out of date and will kill you 554 deader than dead, at long range, silently...) In close action, a sword is 555 a very effective weapon, at medium and long range, forget it. Remember 556 Indiana Jones versus the Swordmaster in Red??? (think of the poor guy, a 557 lifetime of practice, constant training, careful attention to detail, good 558 agent, slowly building up a professional practice, and just at the peak of 559 his earning years, BAM! future shock! there ain't no justice...) 560 I agree about space explosions, they won't look like what we see in 561 the movies. Blowing up a very large object like a death star or a planet 562 is going to be a very slow process. But who cares! ONE MORE TIME!!! 563 564 the Phantom Glitch 565 just high on RETURN!!! 566 567 HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 568 ----- 569 Hey, without sound, dogfights in space would be any fun! 570 ----- 571 ============================================ 572 Yes, Tron, you merely display your lack of knowledge when you discuss 573 relativity. Though I didn't major in physics in college, 1.5 years of 574 it helped. I don't claim to understand any of the finer points, but 575 I do know one thing: Relativity is consistent and is capable of 576 accurately predicting behavior in the real world. Those people who 577 claim to see 'contradictions' are usually just comparing a prediction 578 of relativity with 'good old common sense,' which usually turns out to 579 be Newtonian physics. Newton's physics is still taught in school 580 because it is still an excellent description of the world at low speeds. 581 Try to compare the two near c, and 'contradictions' occur. And if you 582 trust your intuition too much, you conclude that relativity is wrong. 583 ^IOne of the earliest examples of an observation explained with 584 relativity is the precession of the orbit of Mercury. This orbit isn't 585 exactly circular, and the point at which it is nearest the Sun moves 586 a tiny amount every year. By Newtonian physics this can't happen: All 587 forces are central. But it does happen. Originally this was 'explained' 588 by postulating the existance of a planet inside the orbit of Mercury, 589 but when relativity was discovered the cause was obvious. 590 ^IThe predictive value of a theory is a good test of its correctness. 591 Other predictions, such as light bending in response to a nearby mass, 592 clocks speeding up or slowing down while in motion, particle trajectories 593 in accelerators, and others have proven relativity to be nearly perfect. 594 Of course, some corrections may need to be made, but you'll need at 595 least 15 years more of school before you can even appreciate the 596 inaccuracies, let alone determine the solutions. 597 ................................................. 598 TRON, 599 While all that is said about relativity is relatively correct (sorry), do 600 keep in mind that it is all based on current beliefs by the people saying 601 it is so. There once was a time when it was impossible for a train (or 602 other vehical) to travel faster then 25 MPH because it would kill the 603 passengers. They were good mathmatics behind it too. Of course this turned 604 out to be not so. How about the ideas of the Earth being flat? Or that 605 it is the center of the universe? All of these ideas were accepted by 606 the people when the notion was popular, and in all cases there was the 607 proper proof that the concepts were correct. What about the 'law of gravity' 608 what goes up must come down, well.... except when you reach escape velocity. 609 opps... I might also point out that the orbit of Mercury is not fully 610 explained by relativity. There are still some minor aspects about it that 611 they have yet to explain. They are working on some gravity theories to 612 try to explain them (among other things). The other thing to keep it 613 mind is that the things themselves don't change, only the forces involved. 614 That is as you aproach the speed of light and your mass approaches 615 infinity, this doesn't mean you become physically infinate in size, 616 only the forces involved are reaching infinity. There is a big difference 617 here, although not to the scientists who only care about the forces. 618 What I am saying is don't give up hope because someone has painted 619 a door on a brick wall and said that you can't open it because it is locked. 620 Instead explore the possibilities to get past the brick wall some other 621 way. This is how each new concept we know is found, INCLUDING RELATIVITY! 622 By the way, the speed of sound is simply based on the medium through which 623 it is traveling. Since of couse it can't travel through a vacuum (oh god 624 here we go again..) since by that structure there is nothing for it to 625 travel through. If you were to send a blast wave at say 1/2 the speed of 626 light, and there was a sound wave with in it traveling at 400 MPH, how 627 fast is the sound traveling? A. 1/2 the speed of light? B. 400 MPH? 628 C. 1/2 the speed of light +400 MPH? D. 1/2 the speed of light -400 MPH? 629 ** CISTOP MIKEY RUNNING FOR COVER ** 2 JUN 83 ** 10:39PM ******************