NUMBER OF LINES: 628 1 If you are in need of help, you need but ask.... 2 ************************ REMOVED: 18 APR 83 ************************ 3 Welcome to BWMS (BackWater Message System) Mike Day System operator 4 ************************************************************ 5 GENERAL DISCLAIMER: BWMS IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY INFORMATION PLACED ON 6 THIS SYSTEM. 7 BWMS was created as an electronic bill board. BWMS is a privatly owned 8 and operated system which is currently open for use by the general public. 9 No restrictions are placed on the use of the system. 10 It is intended that the system be normally used for messages and 11 advertisments by the users. As the system is privatly owned, I retain the 12 to me. Additionally because of the limited size of the system, it will be 13 periodically purged of older messages. (only 629 lines of data can be saved) 14 The saved information will be cycled to drive 'B' while the information on 15 drive 'B' will be archived, and a fresh disk will be installed in drive 'A'. 16 To leave a message, type 'ENTER' and use ctrl/C or break to get out 17 of the enter mode. The message is automaticly stored. 18 If after entering the message you find you made a mistake, 19 use the replace command to replace the line. 20 To exit from the system, type 'OFF' then hang up. 21 Type 'HELP' to see other commands that are available on the system. 22 ======================================== 23 24 IT IS REALLY GREAT THAT ONE STATEMENT ABOUT THE THINGS HAPPENING IN THIS 25 26 ------------ 27 Is the prior message a comment on the users, or the discs??? 28 ----------- 29 Ethics that cover only some situstions are no ethics at all, just excuses. 30 There is more than one definition of "good, right, just, moral, true." 31 A real truth does depend on who said it, it stands by itself. 32 As to titles of the various philosophical schools, who gives a g--- d---? 33 It doesn't affect us, but laws (passed by governments) do. Our own ideas 34 may conflict, and we have in the US some freedom of choice, but all the 35 garbage from Agora, et al still ignore the simple thruth we live in a real 36 world, we didn't build, and it contains other people, with there own ideas. 37 Absolute truths may exist, but our studies of physics, astromnomy, etc. 38 implies we will never know them, just approximations. (These are the simple 39 situations, much simpler than the human mind.) Mathematics gives us 40 'absolute truths', but only in the context of a small, specially defined 41 micro-world. 42 Why do I harp on conflicts? Because they are a very real part of life. 43 One person alone on an island is free from all social conflicts, but 44 we are not one alone, we are together 3 1/2 billion strong. We can reduce 45 conflicts, we must, but ignoring them doesn't make them go away. 46 If you can't cope with conflicts why do you argue with us? This is an 47 example of a conflict. Your absolute truths are true only in your own 48 small world, and not the real world. Unfortunately, you also live in the 49 real world. 50 The question of self interest vs altuism has again surfaced, at a gut 51 level it may be denyed that altruism can exist, but it is commonly seen, 52 both in humans, and in animals, so it must be real. It can be in the 53 interests of an individual to commit suicide, because his interest can 54 include others. Are we only individual? I doubt it, we are a social 55 animal. (Of course without others ethics and morals are pretty meaningless 56 anmyway.) 57 ==================================B.A.D.====0015==3-29-83=========== 58 (later) OK, so as not to be only poking holes into other's ethics, here's 59 mine: do what is in the greatest good for the greatest number of people, 60 with the least harm to the least number. Of course this requires the 61 defining of good and harm, and here is where the stickiness comes in. I 62 believe that most of the time we all agree on good and evil, so it isn't 63 usually important, but a valid ethic must cover everything, so here goes: 64 consider the total effect of your action, not just now, but its entire 65 echo throughout following history, and if it seems to hurt people, it isn't 66 ethical. What is acceptable harm changes, though, and is defined by society. 67 What is good is also, and it is therefore necessary to know what society 68 wants, and needs 69 The correct actions will not always be the same when applied to different 70 people, though: children are treated differently from adults. (When do 71 consider one an adult is a hairy point.) What someone wants and what he 72 needs may differ, so consider needs, not wants if there is a conflict. 73 Consider also that your act may change their desires and therefore your 74 future ethics. Harm carries more weight than good, so be careful abut 75 hurting someone. If there is a balance, choose your self first. Remember 76 "they" are people too, even if their desires are different from yours. 77 Although basically democratic, I don't believe people are created equal, 78 or remain equal. I am smarter than most, but my musical talents are less, 79 and everybody has some more or some less of some ability than others. 80 These differences rank people, but the rank changes depending on what is 81 needed. In the jungle physical strength was vital to survival I would 82 lose there) For a typist or computer operator strength isn't critical 83 or for most technological jobs, but smarts are, so I win here over the 84 gorilla. I also rate my friends more highly than those I don't know, but 85 since I must consider all time, this isn't critical in most decisions. 86 Therefore: I believe crime is wrong, it hurts people, I feel we should 87 pay taxes(my, my, wasn't that what atarted all this) because we can benefit 88 (all citizens) from wht taxes pay for; war is wrong unless forced by greater 89 evil, but if it is needed, do it. If there is a conflict that has no easy 90 choice, but is like one that will appear in the future, then make a decision 91 that can be lived with, it will allow future generations to make the same 92 decision, and if it is known what is right then maybe the problem can be 93 avoided the next time. 94 95 A voted choice is not necessarily best, because many people choose what looks 96 best now, and don't look at the total effects, or its effects in the future. 97 In fact growing up is largely learning to look at things in a wider light 98 than " I want that candy now!" and putting the money into the bank, so it 99 can buy solid food nest week. We treat children differently because they 100 aren't able to choose for themselves. We hire experts to do things we 101 can't easily do for ourselves, and this includes run the government, but 102 we adults must watch what they do and tell them what we want. We have 103 our good government because we teach our children to behave, and as 104 long as everybody does, we cna allow a little freedom. 105 Note that this democratic ethic does not include being good to minorities, 106 except in that they get the same treatment as everybody else. I don't 107 believe in paying someone for something my parents did to his parents, 108 either. But it is in the greatest good to eliminate poverty, because this 109 leads to crime, and deprives society of the possible benefits of the poor's 110 ablities. We are after all, a society. The greatest good for the most. 111 Enough 112 =============================================B.A.D.==================== 113 B.A.D. 114 You really should look into Metalaw. From your opinions as expressed 115 above, I think you would agree with much of it & be able to find 116 better rules than some of those currently proposed. I note that 117 you started with the 2nd principle of Metalaw and went on from 118 there. 119 ___________________________F - I W______________________________ 120 121 IT;'t aiyd o uslvs n hsicue u h oenet u OFF 122 123 THERE HAS BEEN SOME GREAT IDEAS AND OPINIONS ON THE BOARD ABOUT LIFE 124 THE BOARD HAS REALLY COME ALIVE WITH THE IDEAS AND OPINIONS EXPRESSED 125 AND PEOPLE ARE GETTING INVOLVED,IT SEEMS THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE AWAKE 126 OUT THERE.THE INTER-ACTION IS GOOD. I PRESENTED SOME IDEAS AND GOT SOME 127 RESPONSE AND SOME OF IT HAS CHANGED MY ATTITUDES ANDA LITTLE MORE INSIGHT 128 AS TO WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE THINKING.I STARTED WITH A POLITICAL SEED AND 129 NOW WANT TO ENTER ANOTHER ONE-THE WASTE THAT OUR SYSTEM CREATES EVERY 130 DAY----RECYCLING----WE PRODUCE A FAST AMOUNT OF WHAT WE CALL WASTE-BUT 131 IN THAT WASTE-THERE IS MATERIALS THAT ARE IN SHORT DEMAND-IT IS EASY TO 132 THROW OUT BUT WE COULD REALLY REUSE MOST OF OUR BY-PRODUCTS.INSTEAD OF 133 HAVING LAND FILLS-LETS START A RECYCLING SYSTEM THAT CAN START AT HOME 134 WITH SEPERATE CANS OR THE "DUMP"-THIS IS WHERE THE JOBS COME IN AND 135 FOR SOME REASON-THERE WAS SOME PROBLEM WITH MY MACHINE OR MODEM OR THE 136 BOARD SO I WILL CONTINUE-HAVING A SYSTEM OF CONVEYOR BELTS WITH A CENTRAL 137 COLLECTION SITE,WHERE IT COULD BE PROCESSED AS TO METAL,GLASS,PAPER, 138 CONTINUED 139 WE PRODUCE MOUNTAINS OF WASTE BUT WE CAN REUSE MOST OF IT-SEPERATING 140 EVERYTHING WITH CONVEYOR BELTS AT ANY CENTRAL SITE WOULD PUT A LOT 141 OF PEOPLE TO WORK AND ANYTHING LEFT COULD BE USED AS FUEL FOR METHANE 142 DIGESTERS WHICH IN TURN COULD BE USED TOWARD POWER GENERATION FOR 143 THE SYSTEM IT SELF,TOWARD A INTERGRATED SYSTEM THAT CAN BE COMBINED 144 WITH OTHER SYSTEMS.IT MAY SOUND UN-PRACTICAL TO SOME BUT TAKING THE 145 BASIC IDEA AND PEOPLES PARTICIPATION-IT WOULD WORK WILL ON A LARGE 146 SCALE AS IT DOES FOR THE SMALL GROUPS INVOLVED AROUND THE COUNTRY 147 NOW.AND YES-I WOULD WORK MYSELF IN THE DUMP SITE BECAUSE I HAVE WORK- 148 ED IN A SIMILAR SITUATION,WHERE THEY WERE DEALING WITH NEWSPRINT AND 149 CARDBOARD BUT THE MASSIVE AMOUNT OF OTHER THINGS THAT WHERE PASSED 150 OVER IN THE PROCESS IS WHAT OPENED MY EYES TO WHAT COULD REALLY BE 151 DONE WITH OUR DISCARDS. 152 ANY COMMENTS OR IDEAS???????????????????????????????????????????????? 153 154 THANK YOU FOR THE SPACE ON THE BOARD. 155 156 --------------------------------------THE O.J. KID. 3-29-83----------- 157 ====================================================================== 158 TO O.J.KID, I've often said to technophobes that if you want to be 159 paranoid about technology, you should be scarred shitless everytime 160 you see a flush-toilet. The Japanese and Chinese have understood for 161 centuries that it is insane to flush waste into our natural water 162 system rather than re-cycle it. 163 To HUMBUG: It's not a conclusion; it's a factual observation. The fact 164 of your participation stands once again re-affirmed by you--and once 165 again as you read this (to take delivery of this silver bullet). We're 166 trading ideas here. You don't seem to understand the practical im- 167 portance of ideas. If there are things wrong in the world, you can 168 treat causes or symptoms. Some may choose to remedy symptoms "within 169 ten miles of their own house". I applaud such para-medics. I have such 170 skills and spent years practicing. But when medieval practitioners like 171 you are applying leeches to people who show symptoms of blood-loss trauma, 172 then it becomes paramount that we raise the level of knowledge in our 173 medical practitioners. There is urgency for people who REALLY care. 174 People like you should be jolted into seeing that you're killing people 175 with leeches rather than helping them. 176 "Electronic shouting match between a masked elite". You have insight! 177 We're pioneering a new communication media here. The annonymity adds 178 extra spice. There should be one of these BWMS in every community! 179 Standby: the personal computing revolution is moving so fast that there 180 soon probably will be. MIKE, ya wanna git rich? Dubious distinction, 181 HUMBUG? Would you prefer that the annoying world of ideas be left to 182 the public school brainwashing and that BIG BROTHER take care of you? 183 To B.A.D.: When people's definitions of GOOD, JUSTICE, MASS, ENERGY 184 conflict, then claims are "tested" against reality. Some claims are 185 discovered wrong (eg, yours). There ARE absolutes. They span reality; 186 not your own little subjective micro-world. If you say there are no 187 absolutes, then you are laughable because you're uttering one. If you 188 say that we should not seek simplicity (ie, clarity) then you are 189 laughable because you are uttering a very simplistic (and absolute) 190 proclamaton. 191 You're a mental retard who walks up to us on a 747 after takeoff and 192 says, "Airbourne flight by man is impossible in principle". When I 193 mash your face against the port-hole you say the view of the earth 194 below is just a subjective illusion in my own micro-world. 195 To repeat, Ethics interprets conflict situations, it doesn't ignore 196 them. If you think my view of absolute truth is not true in reality, 197 then our recourse is to consult reality thru analysis and experiment. 198 That is what discourse is for; that is how knowledge grows. I not only 199 live in the real world, I think in it. Can you say the same? I am coping 200 with the conflicts in your ideas quite well, thank you. You are beginning 201 to sound like MOON-U, the broken record, however. Why do I argue? 202 You're an intellectual punching-bag. And you're losing air. 203 You say we should keep an open mind; but you hand us a 44-Magnum and 204 tell us to blow a hole in our head. You say some of us have our head 205 in the sand, but you continue to invite us into your ethical torture 206 chamber. I'm merely warning others that there is quicksand under your 207 welcome-mat. 208 ===========AGORA CADRE (Merlin screams; his mountain explodes!)=========== 209 -------------------------------------- 210 211 SEEING THE SITUATION THAT MANY PEOPLE, INCLUDING PEOPLE I WORK WITH ARE 212 THAT THERE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT WORKING AND MANY OF THESE PEOPLE 213 HAVE HOMES AND FAMILIES TO TAKE CARE BUT NO JOB AND/OR RESOURCES AND 214 THIS LEAVES ANY PERSON IN A HELL OF A POSITION-IS THERE TO MANY PEOPLE 215 FOR THE FEW JOBS OUT THERE? I WOULD LIKE TO TALK ABOUT A IDEA THAT IS 216 BEING USED IN OTHER COUNTRIES WERE PEOPLE ARE HELPING EACH OTHER OUT BY 217 SHARING JOB HOURS-INSTEAD OF WORKING 40 HOURS AS ONE PERSON-YOU START 218 SHARING TIME/HOURS WITHIN A GROUP SO OTHERS HAVE A CHANCE TO BE PRO- 219 DUCTIVE AND MAINTAIN SOME SELF-WORTH AND THEIR FAMILIES AND ENTER-ACT 220 WITH THE PEOPLE THEY WORK WITH-A LITTLE MORE FREE TIME FOR EVERYONE 221 INVOLVED. ANY SYSTEM , ANYWHERE CAN PRESENT A PROBLEM(S)BUT IT'S THE 222 NOT SOMETHING WE CAN OVERCOME IF WE DEAL WITH IT AND EACH OTHER TO 223 MAKE THINGS WORK FOR ALL INVOLVED. 224 225 --------------------------------------THE O.J.KID-------------------- 226 OFF 227 OFF 228 HAVING STATED MY OPINIONS,QUALIFIED THEM,REQUALIFIED THEM, AND 229 GROWN BORED WITH THE ONGOING DEBATE OF PHILOSOPHY, I WOULD LIKE 230 TO THANK MIKE FOR THE DISK SPACE,B.A.D. FOR THE INPUT ( OTHERS TOO), 231 AND CERTAINLY AGORA FOR THE PROVOCATION. ALTHOUGH YOU SLING SHIT, 232 SPEAK IN GENERALITIES, AND ARGUE WITH AMBIGUOUS TERMS, YOU 233 ARE CONSISTANT. AND YOU SPEAK YOUR MIND. I LIKE THAT. I MAY 234 NOT AGREE WITH WHAT YOU SAY OR HOW YOU SAY IT, BUT AT LEAST TYOUR 235 NOT LATHARGICLY DISINTERESTED. PEOPLE SPEEK, WRITE, BETTER WHEN 236 PROVOKED. THANKS FOR THE INSPIRATION. SIGNING OUT ON THIS SUBJECT, 237 HAVING SAID ALL IVE TO SAY, MORE THAN ONCE, TO AVOID SOUNDING 238 REPETITIOUS, HASNT IT ALREADY BEEN DISCUSSED TOO MUCH, WHAT MORE 239 IS THERE TO SAY,............................ SPAM-THE HERITIC 240 /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 241 OFF 242 ======================================================================= 243 TO SPAM and other Philosophy Phreaks: Try "Introduction to Objectivist 244 Epistomology" by Ayn Rand. It's a Mentor Paperback. I've seen it at 245 B.Dalton(Wash.SQ) and at Powels Books downtown. Adeau. 246 ================AGORA CADRE============================================ 247 TO AGORA: 248 YOU CLAIMED THERE ARE ABSOLUTES. NAME ONE. 249 YOU CALLED ME A LOT OF MO_ (SORRY, I CAN'T GET THE BACKSPACE ON THISTING TO WO 250 THIONG TO WORK WITH THIS SYSYTEM) OF NAMES, BUT THAT MEANS NOTHING. 251 I SUSPECT THE SAME OF YOU. 252 253 254 THE PROBLEM WITH JOBS IS MOSTLY THAT THE COMPANIES FOIND IT CHEAPER 255 TO LAY PEOPLE OFF THAN TO KEEP THEM. JOB SHARING EXISTS, BUT MOST 256 COMPANIES DON'T LIKE IT, BECAUSE IT IS TO EXPENSIVE: BOTH WORKERS 257 WORK LESS HOURS, GET LESS PAY (SAME PER HOUR RATE), BUT EXPECT THE 258 SAME FRINGE BENEFITS, LIKE MEDICAL. THESE ARE ABOUT 1/3 OR THE TOTAL 259 COST OF AN AMERICAN WORKER. 260 THE PROBLEM WITH RECYCLING IS THE SAME: IT COSTS TOO MUCH. WHEN IT IS 261 CHEAPER TO RECYCLE WE WILL, BUT IT ISN'T. BY THE WAY, COSTS INCLUDE 262 BOTH THE VISIBLE DOLLARS, AND ALL RELATED COSTS, LIKE UNPAID LABOR, 263 THE GAS YOU SPEND GETTING YOUR BOTTLES TO THE RECYCLER, ETC. BEER CANS 264 SENT BACK LOOK GOOD UNTIL YOU ASK HOW MUCH EACH PERSON SPENDS ON KIT. 265 (THERE GOTTA BE A BACKSPACE SOMEWHERE ON THIS THING!!!) 266 CAN'T FIND IT. 267 --------------------------------B.A.D.--------3-29-83---1854PM------ 268 TO F-IW: 269 YOU SPEAK OF METALAW. I STOPPED READING THE LIT ON PHILOSOPY A LONG 270 TIME AGO, BECAUSE 1. MOST OF IT WAS THE SAME THING OVER NAND OVER, OR 271 RREFUTATIONS OF THE SAME AND 2. VERY LITTLE OIF IT PERTAINED TO REALITY. 272 BACK THEN METALAW MEANT SOMETHING LIKE 'THE RULES OF FORMING LAWS', BUT 273 SOMEONE HAS OBVIOUSLY REUSED THE WORD TO MEAN SOMETHING DIFFERENT. 274 WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY METALAW? 275 +++++++++++++++++++++++B.A.D. (AGAIN)++++++++++++++++++++ 276 H@ 277 IKE 278 HI< MI[E 279 I FYNALLY GGT TI ME (O TRY BW]S> 280 I SEL] TO BE BETTING TRASX 281 *********************************************************** 282 A FEW THOUGHTS ABOUT RECYCLING... 283 RECYCLING CAN BE PROFITABLE. THE CURRENT PROBLEM WITH RECYCLING AS 284 YOU ARE CURRENTLY DEFINING IT (I.E. TAKING THE STUFF BEING THROWN 285 IN THE CITY DUMP AND TRYING TO REUSE IT) IS THAT THE RAW VIRGIN 286 MATTERIAL WE USE TO GENERATE THE TRASH IS CHEAPER TO PRODUCE THEN 287 IT IS TO TRY TO RECOVER THE STUFF OUT OF THE TRASH HEAP. 288 THIS HOWEVER IS NOT TRUE IN ALL THINGS. THERE ARE MANY BUSINESSES 289 OUT THERE THAT ARE DOING EXTREMLY WELL RECOVERING RARE METALS FROM 290 OLD ELECTRONIC GEAR. THERE ARE MANY MORE RECYCLING OLD USED EQUIPMENT 291 BACK INTO THE MARKET AS WELL. IN MANY CASES THE WHOLE CONCEPT SHIFTS 292 AND THE OLD MATERIAL CAN ACTUALLY BECOME FAR MORE VALUABLE THEN IT 293 WAS ORIGINALLY AS IN THE CASE OF ANTIQUES. 294 A GOOD WAY TO START IS TO REANALYIS THE WHOLE CONCEPT OF RECYCLING. 295 CASE IN POINT: DIESEL FUEL IS PRODUCED FROM THE WASTE LEFT OVER FROM 296 PROCESSING FOR GASOLINE. THIS WASTE USE TO BE THROWN AWAY. AS THE 297 VOLUME OF GAS PRODUCTION PICKED UP IT BECAME DIFFICULT TO FIND 298 WAYS TO GET RID OF THE STUFF. SO THE OIL COMPANIES REFINED IT SO MORE 299 AND CAME UP WITH DIESEL FUEL. SINCE THE PRICE OF THE ORIGINAL VIRGIN 300 MATTERIAL (CRUDE OIL) WAS ALREADY PAYED FOR THRU THE GAS, THE PRICE OF 301 THE DIESEL FUEL ONLY NEEDED TO TO BASED ON THE ADDITIONAL REFINERY COSTS. 302 AS TIME WHENT BY DIESEL FUEL BECAME MORE POPULAR DESPITE THE DIFFICULTY 303 IN USEING IT IN ENGINES. IN HIGH VOLUME USE ENGINES IT WAS WORTH IT 304 BECAUSE OF THE LOWER COST OF THE FUEL. WHERE IT REALLY GOT HEAVY USE 305 THOUGH WAS AS HOME HEATING FUEL, AGAIN BECAUSE OF THE COST. AS THE PRICE 306 OF CRUDE OIL WHENT UP THE REFINERS HAD TO ADJUST THE COSTS. SINCE THEY 307 COULDN'T ADD IT ALL ONTO THE PRICE OF GASOLINE, THEY STARTED SHIFTING 308 PART OF THE CRUDE COST TO THE DIESEL FUELS. AS A RESULT DIESEL FUEL 309 HAS SHIFTED IN CONCEPT FROM BEING A WASTE RECOVERY PRODUCT TO BEING A 310 VIRGIN REFINED PRODUCT. 311 NATURAL GAS IS THE SAME HERE, WHEN AN OIL WELL IS DRILLED, SOMETIMES 312 THERE IS A LARGE AMOUNT OF METHANE TRAPPED IN THE OIL RESEVOIR. THIS 313 USE TO BE VENTED TO THE AIR AND BURNED AS WASTE. INFACT WHERE IT IS 314 TOO INSUFFICIENT AN AMOUNT TO TRAP, OR WHERE THEY ARE NOT ABLE TO 315 RECOVER IT FOR SOME REASON THIS IS STILL DONE. AGAIN HERE IS A WASTE 316 PRODUCT THAT HAS SHIFTED TO BEING A VIRGIN MATERIAL. 317 SO YOU SEE, THE IDEA IS TO CHANGE YOUR VIEW, DON'T LOOK UPON IT AS 318 WASTE, RATHER LOOK AT IT AS A SOURCE OF RAW MATERIAL TO PROVIDE A 319 NEW AND EXCITING PRODUCT TO ADD TO THE MARKET PLACE! 320 *** CISTOP MIKEY WITH SOME THOUGHTS ON RECYCLING *** 30 MAR 83 ******* 321 IN RESPONSE TO B.A.D. 322 THE WHOLE IDEA OF RECYCLING IS THE STATE OF MIND YOUR IN(MIKEY HAS A 323 POINT IN MIND)IT DOESN'T COST ANY MORE TO RECYCLE THAN IT DOES TO 324 THROW IT AWAY-THERE IS GOING TO BE OVERHEAD IN ANY OPERATION-IT'S 325 INHERANT IN ANY OPERATION-I JUST DON'T SEE THE NEED TO THROW AWAY 326 WHAT CAN BE REUSED-WHERE DO ALL THOSE NATURAL RESOURES COME FROM 327 AND IN WHAT MATTER ARE THEY OBTAINED????????THIS COUNTRY ALONE USES 328 AROUND 1/3 OF ALL RESOURCES ON THE PLANET AND WE WANT MORE AS WE 329 FLY DOWN THE ROAD AND PITCH IT.SOMEWHERE IN THERE, SOMEONE LOSES- 330 THE COUNTRIES THAT UNWILLINGLY PROVIDE THOSE RAW MATERIALS-IN THE 331 FORM OF FOREIGN AID(IS THIS A CALLING CARD OR INVITATION)TO "HELP" 332 SMALL AND GROWING COUNTRIES MANAGE THEIR RAW RESOURCES SO THEY 333 DON'T GO TO WASTE. I CAN LOOK AT THE WORLD SITUATION AND IT SEEMS 334 LIKE IT'S A FREE FOR ALL-TAKE WHAT YOU WANT IF YOU HAVE THE POWER 335 AND LEAVE THE REST A MESS IN THE DUST. 336 ------------------------------------------THE O.J. KID.-3-30-83--- 337 WEVE HEARD SO MUCH,TO MUCH IN FACT,ABOUT HOW THE JAPANESE CAN TAKE 338 OUR SCRAP IRON AND STEEL,RECYCLE IT, THEN SELL IT BACK TO AMERICAN 339 INDUSTRY CHEEPER THAN WE CAN DO IT OURSELVES. THIS IS NOT AN EXAMPLE 340 OF "CHEAP LABOR" PER SAY, AS IT IS OF A GROUP OF PEOPLE REALIZING 341 THE WORTH OF "TRASH". THERE ARE OF COURSE OTHER FACTORS INVOLVED, 342 BUT THE MAIN POINT IS THAT AN INDUSTRY HAS FOUND A WAY TO DO SOMTHING 343 WE HAVNT SEEN COST EFFECTIVE. WHY CANT WE DO THIS???? 344 TIM 345 //////////////////////////// 346 347 348 I would be a cash buyer of two VIC-20's in clean, unmodified condition if 349 offered soon for something near $65 (more if desired accessories are included). 350 Leave message here. HUMBUG, trying to enter marvelous electronic frontiers! 351 HI MIKEY-I WAS WONDERING WHAT SIZE DISK YOU USE FOR BWMS-I WANT TO 352 CONTRIBUTE A BOX OF DISKS FOR THE BOARD BECAUSE I THINK THE OPPORTUNITY 353 THAT YOUR PROVIDING IS GREAT BECAUSE ONE SHOULDN'T TOW THE LINE-I'M 354 MORE THAN WILLING TO SHARE IN SOMETHING THAT BENIFITS A LARGE NUMBER OF 355 PEOPLE. LEAVE A MESSAGE ON THE BOARD OR I WILL CALL YOU LATER IN THE 356 EVENING.............................................ONE FOR ALL AND 357 ALL FOR ONE.............................THE O.J.KID....3-30-83........... 358 TO: THE O.J.KID THANKS FOR THE DISKS THEY WILL HELP REDUCE THE LOAD 359 ON MY SUPPLY. 360 ...... CISTOP MIKEY OF BWMS ................................................. 361 BAD 362 WOULD YOU CALL THIS CONSIQUENCIALIST,UTTILITARIANISM? I WOULD BE 363 INCLINED TO AGREE WITH YOU REGARDLESS OF YOUR LABLE.,,,SPAM,,,,, 364 /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 365 LIKE FAR OUT. FOR SURE FOR SURE. LIKE GAG ME WITH A GARDEN RAKE. 366 TAKE AWAY MY BIRTHDAY, PUNISH ME WITH A BAD HAIRDOO, BUT GIRLFRIEND 367 "GET OFF MY DRESS"!!!!!!!! LIKE STICK IT UP YOUR VALLY GOON UNIT!! 368 # # & $ ( """ ) # &&&&&&& 369 HAVE I ENTERED? IT'S DARK IN HERE -- I'M GROPING. 370 FROM RAGMOP1 373 TO MIKEY 374 BY THE TIME I GOT TO THE OFFICE SUPPLY-EVERYTHING HAD 375 BEEN SOLD THAT OF BEEN OF USE AFTER MY BROTHER LISTED 376 THE GOOD BUY ON DISKS ON VARIOUS BOARDS BUT WAS ABLE TO 377 PICK UP A BOX OF DISK WHICH I WILL LIST-I KNOW THERE NOT 378 THE SIZE YOU NEED BUT IS THERE SOMEONE YOU KNOW THAT CAN 379 USE THIS SIZE AND TRADE YOU FOR A BOX IN THE SIZE YOU CAN 380 USE? "BUD" BRAND FLOPPY DISKS-8 INCH BFD 34,BOX OF 10 381 DOUBLE DENISTY/SOFT-SECTORED. 382 -----------------------------------THE O.J.KID...3/31/83.... 383 DN 200 384 385 TO: O.J.KID YES, IN FACT I USE THE 8" ON ANOUTHER COMPUTER 386 SYSTEM. WHICH OF COURSE MEANS I WOULD PUT THE NEXT DISK BUY TOWARDS 387 THE 5" INSTEAD OF THE 8". 388 ............ MIKEY CISTOP BWMS OF .................................... 389 Sorry, Mike, but diesel is not a converted waste product from making 390 gasoline, but it is is just another thing that can be made out of oil. 391 Exxon et al can make either, though it is true that more diesel can usually 392 be made from one gallon of oil. The oil companies "crack" the oil to 393 get more light products like gas or diesel. The arab states usually throw 394 out the natural gas in their oil, because it is too far from any big 395 market, and are just now going into liquifying it and shipping this to 396 Europe and the US. Liquified gas is however very dangerous, and they are 397 having trouble finding places to store it near civilized markets. The 398 fires of this wasted gas being burned is easily visible from orbit. 399 400 Another answer to waste is not recycle, but reduce the waste in the 401 beginning, by being more efficient. For example, here we get beer in 402 glass or metal cans, in europe they also use cardboard with only a thin 403 film of plastic inside and out for waterproofing. You have to be careful 404 of these things, they will melt if scratched and put in water, but use 405 a lot less energy to make. although glazed slick paper is not recyclable, 406 it uses less wood to make in the first place, and less energy to make and 407 print on it, and less ink. We really don't need that fancy expensive 408 box 6" by 10" that that 3" by 4" VIC cartridge came in. 409 One reason the Japanese can reuse or scrap iron better than we, is their 410 more modern steel industry. The US steel industry has just gone ahead 411 with the old way so long they are obsolete, lose money, and can not afford 412 to upgrade,lose more money, etc. They are not the only ones doing this: 413 how many american shoes do you see?, or cameras?, or TV's, or??? 414 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~B.A.D.~~~~~Apr 1,1983~~~~03:55 am~~~ 415 ========================================================================= 416 To B.A.D.: I think a very good first step toward good communication is to 417 tell like you see it. I do. You should too. I use strong anology for 418 impact. Nothing wrong with names when they encapsulate the truth. 419 Probably the best candidate for an absolute is Ayn Rand's statement: 420 "Existence exists", this absolute is an axiom--you must use (or exemplify) 421 it in some way in order to even try to disprove it. If you're interested 422 in other absolutes, see the Rand book I referenced above. 423 I read with interest about re-cycling. One thing I've often wondered 424 since starting a business here in OR several years ago is why aren't there 425 any good electronics surplus outlets around here. In Dallas, I used to 426 go to the Rondure Co. where they have whole warehouses full of older, 427 out-of-commision computers at drastically reduced prices. They also had 428 military surplus electronics. This is one kind of recycling that should 429 become even more interesting as these millions of personal computers hit 430 the used and over-the-hill status. 431 =================AGORA CADRE===========01APR83--1509==================== 432 ON THE SUBJECT OFF REUUSING OLD OR WORN OUT THINGS 433 GREAT IDEA BUT AS STATED BEFORE THE COST IS WHAT PEOPLE ARE AFRAID OF 434 FOR INSTANCE WOOD WASTES,GRASS,LEAVES 435 TAKE THEM TO THE DUMP APPROX.$12 FOR A PICKUP TO ONE OF 436 THE RECYCLING CENTERS $1 TO $3 437 DOLLARS A YARD 438 COSTS TO THE RECYCLING CENTER 439 APPROX.$135 HR TO CHIP TREES & LIMBS 440 MULCH-APPROX.$6 A YARD 441 THIS INCLUDES MOST OF YOUR OVERHEAD & LABOR 442 BUT MOST PEOPLE EITHER BURN OR TAKE TO A VACANT LOT. 443 BUT THE IDEA OF RECYCLING IS GOOD BUT THINK OF THE COST TO 444 EITHER SET UP A PLACE TO DO IT AND IF THE PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO DO THE WORK OF 445 THE INITIAL WORK OF SORTING AT HOME 446 OFF 447 EXIT 448 449 450 OFF 451 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 452 AGORA: You never did go away, as you once promised. Prompted by your 453 last missile to or at me, I rescind my apology to you. Keep writing 454 your stylized verbage, and people will come to know just what you are! 455 HUMBUG 456 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 457 ABOUT THE DIESEL FUEL AND SUCH, YES DIESEL FUEL USE TO BE REFINED FROM 458 THE WASTE CRUDE. BECAUSE OF THE VOLUME NEEDED IT IS NOW REFINED DIRECTLY 459 FROM THE VIRGIN CRUDE AS I STATED TO GET THE VOLUME UP. BUT WHAT I WAS 460 TALKING ABOUT WAS THE ORIGINAL REASON FOR IT EXISTANCE, WHICH WAS TO USE 461 THE CRUDE WATSES. MOST PEOPLE THINK THAT THE CRUDE IS REFINE IN ONE SHOT 462 INTO ONLY ONE THING, AND THE WASTE IS THEN DISCARDED. THIS IS SIMPLY NOT 463 TRUE. AS MANY AS 10 OR MORE PRODUCTS CAN BE REFINED FROM THE OIL AT ONCE. 464 WHAT OFTEN HAPPENS HOWEVER IS THAT THEY WILL CONCENTRATE ON ONE PARTICULAR 465 PRODUCT (SUCH AS GAS OR DIESEL) IN ORDER TO GET A HIGHER VOLUME. THIS DOES 466 REDUCE THE EFFICIENCY OF THE OVERALL REFINING HOWEVER. EVEN THE WASTE FROM 467 THE FINAL REFINEING IS PUT TO USE THOUGH. IT IS USED IN SUCH THINGS AS 468 FERTALIZER, AND TAR (WHERE DO YOU THINK THAT GOOY STUFF FOR THE ASFALT MIX 469 COMES FROM?). 470 IF YOU ARE REALLY INTERESTED, I SUGEST YOU TAKE A TOUR THROUGH A REFINERY 471 IT IS VERY INTERESTING. 472 ALSO AS I STATED, NATURAL GAS FROM THE OIL WELLS IS INDEED BURNED OFF AS 473 WASTE WHEN IT CANNOT BE MADE USE OF FOR SOME REASON. YOU WERE ONLY 474 REITERATING WHAT I SAID. THIS THROW AWAY ONLY OCCURS AS LONG AS NO ONE 475 WANTS IT. IN AREAS WHERE NATURAL GAS IS IN HEAVY USE THEY NOW OFTEN 476 DRILL WELLS SPECIFICALY FOR THE PURPOSE OF LOOKING FOR NATURAL GAS. 477 IN OTHER AREAS SUCH AS SUDI AS YOU MENTIONED WHERE THERE IS NO USE 478 FOR THE GAS THEY BURN IT OFF. THIS DOES NOT MEAN IT IS NOT A VALUABLE 479 COMODITY, ONLY THAT THEY HAVE NOT LEARNED TO USE IT. NATURAL GAS IS 480 ONE OF THE NEATEST NATURAL FUELS. IT REQUIRES LITTLE OR NO REFINING 481 IT BURNS VERY EFFICENTLY. IT CAN BE STORED IN CONCENTRATED FORM. AND IT 482 CAN BE SHIPPED TO THE CUSTOMER WITH THE LOWEST DIRECT COST OF ANY 483 OTHER FUEL. THE PROBLEM IS THE INDIRECT COST (I.E. THE PIPELINE). THE \ 484 VERY HIGH SETUP COST IS WHY GAS IS NOT USED MORE HEAVILY. HOWEVER AS THE 485 PRICE OF GASOLINE RAISES NATURAL GAS BECOMES MORE DESIREOUS. THE 486 RUSSANS AREN'T LAYING IN THAT PIPELINE FOR FUN! 487 I STILL SAY THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS WASTE, ONLY NONUSED RESOUCES. 488 ALSO THE WASTE WILL BE RECYCLED EVENTUALLY BY NATURE, IT IS ONLY 489 A MATTER OF WHEN. 490 YOU TALK OF THE NEAT THINGS EUROPE IS DOING TO REDUCE WASTE, WHY NOT 491 LOOK IN YOUR OWN BACK YARD? AMERICANS ARE DOING JUST AS MUCH IF NOT 492 MORE OF THE SAME. NOT TO LONG AGO MILK CAME IN GLASS BOTTLES (BY THE 493 WAY, THIS IS THE 'BEST' WAY SINCE THE BOTTLES ARE REUSED SO THAT 494 THE ONLY ENERGY USED IS IN CLEANING THEM FOR REUSE. THE PROBLEM 495 IS THE PAPERWORK NEEDED TO KEEP TRACK OF THEM.) NOW MILK COMES 496 IN WAXED CARDBOARD CARTONS, AND PLASTIC CONTAINERS. HOWABOUT THE 497 NEW WINE CARTONS OUT OF CALIFORNIA THAT ARE JUST A CARDBOARD BOX 498 WITH A PLASTIC LINER. THE NEW CHEAPER THINER ALUMINUM CANS. THE NEW 499 FOIL POUCHES. WHAT ABOUT THE PLASTIC POUCHES FOR VEGGIES THAT HAVE 500 REPLACED THE OLD TIN CANS? SWANSON HAS BEEN FOOLING AROUND WITH 501 CARDBOARD FOR THIER TV DINNERS. PAPER RECYCLING IS STILL BEING DONE, 502 IT IS MOSTLY VOLUNTER WORK HOWEVER AS IT IS DIFFICULT TO COMPETE 503 WITH THE ESTABLISHED VIGIN PAPER MARKET. YES, RECYLCING IS ALIVE AND 504 WELL, IT IS JUST NOT BEING RECOGINZED WHEN IT OCCURS. 505 ONE PARTING THOUGHT, IF IT WERE NOT FOR WASTE THE SMALL BUSINESS 506 WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO SURVIVE IN TODAYS MARKET. THINK ABOUT IT, 507 THERE ARE SOME VERY DEEP IMPLICATIONS HERE. 508 **** CISTOP MIKEY OF BWMS THE RAVEN ONE ********************* 509 Just a reminder: 510 AMIGO-SUNDAY will be Online 511 Sun Apr.3 for 24hrs 512 -|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|- 513 Agora, thanks for the nothing, using a word to prove itself means, in 514 complex computer terms, 0=0. In any case, what does existance mean? Is it 515 good? I think we were discussing what to do if we existed, but since you 516 are hung up on words, not their meaning.... 517 Waste is the nonuse of something that could have use, it isn't evil by 518 itself, for instance the cloth left when the clothes are cut out is waste, 519 miimizing it is important, not eliminating. Whether we use oil as gas or 520 as deisel doesn't matter, we are wasting a very valuable irreplaceable 521 resource: it is needed as raw material for industry. Glass bottles were 522 very wasteful and costly (energy, transportation, retrevial, 523 breakage, washing, risk of contamination, etc). Paper is cheaper, both 524 in terms of $$$, and in energy. Unfortunately we have no good way to 525 get rid of them after they are used up: home burning is dirty. 526 Most of the carton is paper and renewable, too. Should milk come in quarts? 527 Or bulk, you bring your own bottle to the store? 528 Things will be recycled as soon as it is worth it. The lack of surplus stores 529 has always irked me, too. 530 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~B.A.D.~~~apr 3,83~~~~~~~~ 531 WHAT IS A WEED? A PLANT WITH NO USE. SEEMS THE VIETNAMESE THAT ARE MOVING 532 INTO THE NEIGHBORHOOD HAVE DIFFERENT IDEAS AS TO WHAT IS A WEED, THEY EAT 533 THEM. I SPEND HOURS AND DAYS KILLING MORNING GLORIES, BUT THE @!#$% ACCROSS 534 THE STREET PLANTS THEM AS FLOWERS. SEE ANYTHING SIMILAR HERE?? 535 ?????????????????????????????? 536 WASTE: TO FAIL TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF; LEFTOVER, SUPERFLUOUS; DISCARDED MATERIAL. 537 (FROM WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY) 538 ........................................................................... 539 540 About glass bottles, knowing both the paper industry and the glass industry, 541 i would have to disagree with BAD about them being more wasteful and costly. 542 paper does require large amounts of energy to produce, but most poeple don't 543 see it what they see is the energy used to convert the roll paper from the 544 manufacturer into the final package. What is not seen is the energy used to 545 get the paper to that roll form. growing the trees harvesting them 546 transporting them storing them. processing them into pulp and processing that 547 pulp into the desired paper. there is as much energy used here as in the glass 548 industry. So what is the beef about glass verses paper? simple, glass has an 549 higher people involvment then paper, so you have a higher labor cost. Were 550 you to automate the glass industry as heavily as they have the paper industry 551 things might be different. ANouther aspect to consider is that the paper 552 containers basicly cannot be recycled. this is because of all the chemicals 553 and bonded matterials that comes as a part of the paper container. It can't 554 be burned because of these matterials and stuff, it can't be repupled for the 555 same reason, so all that is left is to bury it and let mother nature recover 556 it a few million years from now. glass on the other hand like aluminum and 557 steel is one of the easy to recycle materials. in the case of bottles all 558 that needs to be done is to clean them for reuse. no raw resources need to 559 be involved at all. broken and non standard size bottles can be melted 560 down for regeneration just as the metals are. The transportation network 561 is there, its called the distribution network. They are going home with 562 empty loads, so why not ship the empties with them instead. What the 563 bottling industry doesn't like is the expense of traking the bottles 564 this is a people expense not a material expense, but it is most of the 565 cost of the bottle. 566 What about plastic, isn't it basicly just cheap glass? well, yes sort of 567 the problem with plastic is that it is easily contaminated which means 568 it cannot be reused if it is. by chosing the proper plastics for the 569 container this can be avoided but it makes the container more expensive. 570 If you are willing to go this far though you then have the problem of 571 washing them for reuse. with glass you just crank the tempurature of 572 the wash as high as you need to kill the bacteria. with plastic you 573 have to be carfull or you will damage the container. because of the 574 tight controls involved it is usually simpler to throw the container 575 away. What about remelting the plastic for reuse like glass? While 576 this is possible, there are problems here too. FIst plastic has a 577 far higher suseptibility to contamination then does glass. With 578 glass you just skim the contaminates of the surface after the melt 579 with plastic the contaminates often stay dispersed within the plastic 580 which leaves you with a much poorer grade of plastic that cannot 581 be used in the food industry. it could still be used as packing material 582 and such howeverr, or possibly in low grade applications. 583 What about the 'waste' cloth that was mentioned earlier, is it really 584 waste? no, it is used and is used purposefully it is usually reprocessed 585 as filler material or padding. it is not 'wasted'. 586 I know of very little industrial materials that are 'wasted' why throw 587 it away if you can make a buck off it? The people who are sinners 588 when it comes to waste are the consummers you and me. 589 ........... the exwarior ....................................... 590 ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 591 Five people are locked in a room. 592 The five are Agora, Humbug, SPAM, an entity called F-IW, and an exwarrior. 593 The evil genious who locked them in (he thought it was a good idea, one of 594 his best) has explaned over a loud speaker that the only way out is by 595 agreeing on a code of ethics for every-day living that also solves the 596 problem of the room full of contrary individuals in a life/death situation. 597 The evil one will let them out when a code of ethics, not to exceed 1500 598 charactors, including spaces, must be understandable by an individual with 599 a eighth grade education, and is acceptable to the evil one himself. 600 To add spice to the occasion, the evil one turns off the air supply to the 601 room. Not only is time limited, but talking must be kept to a bare minimum. 602 603 Have fun, folks, 604 I know I will... 605 the Phantom Glitch. 606 607 p.s. If a man with a superior code of ethics, encounters a man with a less 608 useful code, and knows that this situation could be easily taken ad- 609 vantage of, what is the correct ethical course? 610 ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 611 THANKS FOR THE TIME ON THE MACHINE... BOB IN ST JOHNS 612 OFF 613 0FF 614 I PUT A IDEA SEED ON THE BOARD ABOUT RECYCLING-THERE ARE THE COSTS 615 INVOLVED AS MANY HAVE STATED-WE CAN'T GET AROUND THIS-MY MAIN PIONT 616 WAS THE PROCESSING OF WASTE, BY PRODUCTS OR ANYTHING ONE MIGHT CALL 617 THEM. THATS WERE THE QOUTE"DUMP"COMES IN-HAVING A CENTRAL PLACE OF 618 COLLECTION SO "IT" CAN BE SORTED AND REUSED AS RESOURCES AND ALSO 619 PROVIDING JOBS. THINGS ALWAYS DON'T TO BE GEARED TO WHAT THE PROFIT 620 MARGIN WILL BE-IF YOU CAN DO ONE THING TO SOLVE ANOTGHER-WHY NOT-EVEN 621 IN YOUR 3 PERCENT OVER THE ACTUAL COST.YOU SEE VARIOUS CITIES RIGHT 622 HERE IN THE METRO AREA THAT DON'T WANT THAT "DUMP"IN THEIR BACK YARD 623 BUT STILL PRODUCE WHAT THEY DON'T WANT-SEND IT SOMEWHErE ELSE AND 624 BURY IT OR REUSE IT?I CAN GIVE A EXAMPLE OF SOMEONE I KNOW THAT 625 COULD MAKE MORE IN A DAY PICKING THRU THE TRASH HEAP IN A DUMP THAN 626 HIS JOB AS A BULL DOZER OPERATOR PLOWING IT UNDER AND THAT WAS ON A 627 LIMITED BASIS.IT'S A PROBLEM WE WILL HAVE AS LONG AS THE MAJOR 628 GROUP OF PEOPLE WE ALL LIVE WITH DO NOT SEE THE PROBLEM AT HAND.WE