From: DEATH FENNEC To: ALL Subject: More Problems. Date & Time: 05/06/91 23:29:23 Message Number 16601 There is a problem that \i would like everyone to try to answer for me. I am going to be leaving for California ina couple of weeks, but I am not all that sure that I want to go. I love Lisa, and I am afraid I will losa her. She will be here, and I will be in California. I don't have the slightest idea what  I can do. I want to get out of this damn state, and into California, BUT, I do not want to leave Lisa here. I had said that I loved her, and I do, but I really want to get outa this state. Anyways, can someone help me out here, before I make the wrong decision? Please? /| Death Fennec -- Artist ;> =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Hey! Date & Time: 05/07/91 00:08:13 Message Number 16603 >No prob. Thanks. Yes, I'd like to know the origin of your Mine's kinda interesting too. Wanna hear it? L8R! Knight Owl =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/07/91 00:12:18 Message Number 16604 What defines God as any gender? Well, look in the bible. There's /tons/ of references. *]:) =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: ALL Subject: Dinosaurs Date & Time: 05/07/91 00:18:16 Message Number 16605 Has anyone seen Dinosaurs, a new TV show? If so, waddaya think of it. It's a cross between The simpsons, the flintstones, and the Honeymooners . I, for one, like it a lot. =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/07/91 16:27:05 Message Number 16607 CD> She? What defines God as any gender? Sex organs?? Well, I thought it would be disrespectful for me to call God "The Divine It," so I used the gender-neutral "She." //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/07/91 16:30:06 Message Number 16608 I doubt that. Religious discussions can be logical and intelligent. Not everyone will agree with the conclusions, that's all. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Birth Control Date & Time: 05/07/91 16:31:14 Message Number 16609 Okay. I'll grant the "spiritually enlightening" part of Tantric Yoga. But, from what little I know of the subject, it's not supposed to be sexually stimulating for the man. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Relationships Date & Time: 05/07/91 16:34:05 Message Number 16610 CD> If we were to free ourselves from limiting beliefs... ...we wouldn't believe anything, and would get ourselves killed at the next traffic light. All beliefs are limiting in some sense; let's free ourselves from USELESS beliefs, not "limiting" ones. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: ALL Subject: Pres. Quayle Date & Time: 05/07/91 16:38:29 Message Number 16611 Just curious: Do y'all have anything to say about George Bush's heart problem last weekend? And should the nation be preparing itself for President Quayle? //Dragonfly// =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Relationships Date & Time: 05/07/91 17:48:10 Message Number 16612 DF>She who has "loved" the most is useless to your definition of love. DF>One can give away all the love you "have" -- and still find more love DF>to give. Not one who has "loved" the most is useless -- but one who loves too many people in the certain manner of which I refer to is useless... And yes, you can give away all the love you "have" and still find more love to give, **PROVIDED** that you are loved in return. If you recieve no love in return, then yes, your love will wither away. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/07/91 17:53:01 Message Number 16613 CD>She? What defines God...? Oh, shit...you hadda ask *him*. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: GOD's sense of Date & Time: 05/07/91 17:54:30 Message Number 16614 CD>bird that comes in for a landing... Gooney bird. =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: KNIGHT OWL Subject: Hey! Date & Time: 05/07/91 17:56:27 Message Number 16615 Ok...about 5 years ago, I was in the Army...and I owned an Apple //e. (Actually, I owned two...a Korean manufactured clone called a Banana -- no kidding.) Well, I was the only one over there with a genuine //e. (A rarity overseas.) And I was also the only one who knew the damn things inside and out (including a smattering of machine language and techniques) and I was literally the expert on Apples for all of Yongsan Compound (the equivalent of an Army post). I was cracking software left and right...but I needed a handle. Well, my rank at the time was Specialist E-4, and I was a specialist at Apples, so I took the handle The Specialist...and I left my handle on all the software I broke... CRACKED BY THE SPECIALIST. As a matter of fact, if you went to Korea, you might find some of my work. The reason my stuff caught on so well was because at the time, Apple was switching DOS's. They provided a utility with ProDOS to convert DOS 3.3 to ProDOS, but almost none of the games would work with it. (ProDOS, by the way, was far, FAR superior to DOS 3.3; a game to load under 3.3 would load in half to quarter of the time under ProDOS.) So, there was a demand for games converted to ProDOS, and I filled it. And my stuff caught on, and people were bringing stuff to me for conversion to PD. Games esp. =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Pres. Quayle Date & Time: 05/07/91 22:31:46 Message Number 16616 ...for President Quayle? There's not enough room in Canada for us to "prepare" ourselves for him......sssssssssssssssssssssNICKER . . sssssssssssssSnakeByte . . =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/07/91 22:34:01 Message Number 16617 >>gender-neutral "She." In most languages the gender nuetral is masculine (probably explaining the Him rather then Her reference majority). I'm not saying that God should be referred to with one or the other...just with respect either way, if you 'believe'<-----talk about a generalization!!!!...sorry SnakeByte . . =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: KNIGHT OWL Subject: Dinosaurs Date & Time: 05/07/91 22:37:48 Message Number 16618 Dinosaurs..... Yeah! Good plot, nice story, good insinuations (ie- "when we decided to NOT eat our young..."hehe), great costume work (Jim Henson would be impressed)....more of a rubberized Honeymooners then anything else. It is decent television..........ARGH!!!! Did I say that?!?!?!?! =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: KNIGHT OWL Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/07/91 22:40:42 Message Number 16619 >>look in the Bible. There's /tons/ of references. Look in the history books at how many people thought Joan of Arc was a man. She did it because she knew people wouldn't follow her if they thought otherwise......think about it. =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Relationships Date & Time: 05/07/91 22:43:16 Message Number 16620 >>>limiting beliefs.....(???) Like the 'limiting belief' that if I lay in the fast lane of I-75 at 2am in black clothes that I might get a boo-boo??? >>love who we love... I always thought you're supposed to love yourself before you could love others....sounds rather boring. =========== From: TURTLE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Morality. Date & Time: 05/07/91 23:18:14 Message Number 16622 >Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Yeah. Too bad it's inadequate. I still maintain that "As it harms none, do as thou wilt" is more sophisticated and more generally useful as a moral code. There are too many things the Golden Rule doesn't cover that are still immoral. =========== From: TURTLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Whoops... Date & Time: 05/07/91 23:19:45 Message Number 16623 T>Unless you count George Will. TS>Isn't he that asshole editorialist? Yeah. He's also a raving fanatic about the English language. IMHO, the man is a loon. =========== From: TURTLE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Love and Posets Date & Time: 05/07/91 23:22:38 Message Number 16624 >A poset is a partially ordered set...set theory...set attributes... >etc...etc...etc... Damn, I thought I was excessive when I started applying chaos theory to interpersonal relationships. You know, you could have stated the same thing much more easily if you'd tried. =========== From: TURTLE To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Buscaglia Date & Time: 05/07/91 23:25:01 Message Number 16625 >...probably much as I like a Bugs Bunny cartoon now and then (but not >too often!!) Hey! Don't go knocking Bugs, now...good little furries know that Tex Avery is God. Given the choice, I'd much rather spend the afternoon watching old Bugs Bunny reruns than, say, dining with Mr. Buscaglia... =========== From: TURTLE To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Relationships Date & Time: 05/07/91 23:27:05 Message Number 16626 > ...and rarely become constipated! [LOL] You have no sense of reverence at all, do you? Heh heh. =========== From: TURTLE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Pres. Quayle Date & Time: 05/07/91 23:28:37 Message Number 16627 >....President Q--yle? Hey, don't EVEN use that phrase in my vicinity! I get the shakes whenever I think about addressing Danny as "Mr. President"... =========== From: TURTLE To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Relationships Date & Time: 05/07/91 23:30:12 Message Number 16628 >If you recieve no love in return, then yes, your love will wither away. Agreed...but what does that have to do with the ability to love more than one person at a time? It is also possible to /be/ loved by more than one person at a time. While I see, and agree with, your point that if you start loving everyone around you, or if you love easily, that love doesn't mean very much, that /doesn't/ mean that you must therefore love only /one/ person for the love to have meaning, it means your love should be an uncommon commodity. To extend your own plutonium-vs-dirt metaphor, if you got /two/ handfuls of plutonium that don't suddenly make it as worthless as dirt... =========== From: TURTLE To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Pres. Quayle Date & Time: 05/07/91 23:35:15 Message Number 16629 >There's not enough room in Canada for us to "prepare" ourselves... [LOL] That has got to be one of the funniest things in living memory. Like, welcome back, dude! You should drop in more often. =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: Hey! Date & Time: 05/08/91 00:22:50 Message Number 16633 Hmmm.... Quite an interesting origin of handle... Here's my story... My original handle was Night Owl, simply because I love the nighttime. I sometimes stay up 'til 5 or 6am, though the average crash-time is around 3:30 or so). Well, I have come out of many periods of hardship, poverty, and anything else life can throw at me. Since it took strength to survive these times and didn't wanna change my handle too much, I thought of Knight Owl. 'What is a Knight Owl? you ask? Well, it's something that stays up at weird hours and can pretty much survive anything. L8R! Knight Owl PS Have you read HACKERS? =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/08/91 00:31:38 Message Number 16634 S> .... Joan of Arc....... Touche' I see what you mean... L8R! Knight Owl =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: ALL Subject: *--* Date & Time: 05/08/91 00:36:49 Message Number 16635 Did you hear that Bo Jackson signed a new contract? He's gonna be the batting coach for the LAPD. =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/08/91 13:03:07 Message Number 16636 CD> She? What defines God...? TS> Oh, shit...you hadda ask *him*. Come on, now. You didn't REALLY expect a Cantinflas-type answer to that one, now did you? //Dragonfly// Well... okay. Maybe I should have rambled. =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Pres. Quayle Date & Time: 05/08/91 13:05:55 Message Number 16637 Canada? Personally, I'd try to flee as far as possible from the U.S. I mean, I can imagine "Ohh... now what does this red button do?" //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/08/91 13:07:24 Message Number 16638 >...just with respect either way, if you 'believe.' I certainly DO 'believe.' Born-again (well, three-times born) Christian. As well as being the False Prophet of the Aardvark. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: TURTLE Subject: Morality. Date & Time: 05/08/91 13:09:31 Message Number 16639 > Yeah. Too bad it's inadequate. I still maintain that "As it harms > none, do as thou wilt" is more sophisticated and more generally > useful as a moral code. There are too many things the Golden Rule > doesn't cover that are still immoral. Actually, I was thinking over "four levels" of morality: Crowley: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." Wicca: "As it harms none, do as thou wilt." Buddhism: "Do not do unto others what don't want them to do unto you" Judaism: "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." (I consider Wicca and Buddhism approximately the same moral law, one stated positively; one negatively.) I'm not sure what "sophisticated" would mean, for a moral code. If you mean "knowing" or "worldly-wise," I would disagree. (Of course, this depends on how one defines to "harm another." For example, eating beef in India would "harm" no other person, so would be allowable under Wicca -- but would not be "worldly-wise.") If you mean "intellectually appealing," I can't argue in manners of taste. Again, I'm not sure how you'd define "useful" for a moral code. Any action allowed (nay, required) by the Jewish law would be allowed by Wicca -- but not vice-versa. Therefore, if your definition of "useful" were based on freedom to choose, it would be more "useful." If you were to refer to how people think of your moral character, the Jewish one would probably make people think more highly of you. I'm kind of surprised at your phrase "There are too many things the Golden Rule doesn't cover that are immoral." The biggest difference between the Wicca rule and the Jewish one is permission versus requirement. I believe that if the Jewish moral code does not cover a certain immoral act, then neither would the Wicca one. Any comments from y'all? //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: TURTLE Subject: Whoops... Date & Time: 05/08/91 13:32:33 Message Number 16640 BTW, what's IMHO? //DF// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: TURTLE Subject: Love and Posets Date & Time: 05/08/91 13:33:09 Message Number 16641 Yes, but I didn't try. =========== From: SCOTT STEEL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Say how? Date & Time: 05/08/91 17:01:38 Message Number 16642 TS> And they haven't proven CONCLUSIVELY that AIDS cannot be transmitted TS> via SALIVA. DFy> Do you have any medical documentation backing you your position? That's a pretty silly question, do ya think? If there were medical documentation the back up EITHER position, we'd know for sure now wouldn't we. =========== From: SCOTT STEEL To: TURTLE Subject: Say how? Date & Time: 05/08/91 17:06:43 Message Number 16643 T> But isn't jealousy mediated by the lizard brain?? Ironic, yesno? Grrrrrrr....... =========== From: SCOTT STEEL To: SAAVIK Subject: DINK? Me?? Date & Time: 05/08/91 17:30:48 Message Number 16644 SA> heheheee. Get him a nice T-Bone... I was thinking more on the lines of a rump-roast myself. (snicker) =========== From: SCOTT STEEL To: SAAVIK Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/08/91 17:32:26 Message Number 16645 SA> how else could I go without so easily in situations like home but SA. not work. Simple. Less stress at home, or, at least, stress that you can deal with with less difficulty. =========== From: SCOTT STEEL To: THE SPECIALIST Subject: DINK? Me?? Date & Time: 05/08/91 17:41:33 Message Number 16646 SS> But the next time you get lonely, I'll buy you a steak to cuddle SS> up with. TS> just make sure you warm it up first. I could use body-butter to warm it. =========== From: TURTLE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Morality. Date & Time: 05/08/91 19:51:26 Message Number 16647 DF>[Moral preaching] Well, let's take this one step at a time. Of the four moral codes you mentioned, the Wiccan "As it harms none, do as thou wilt" and the Buddhist "Do not do unto others what you would not have them do unto you" are /not/ the same. The difference is fairly subtle, but I'd still expect someone who spends as much time as you do contemplating this sort of nonsense to grasp it. All the other codes (except Crowley's, which is hardly a "moral code") govern /specifically/ the way you behave toward other people. They make no mention of any action and do not pretend to cover any action that does not directly impact on other people. The Wiccan code does. Also, the other codes (this is the subtle distinction) prohibit /doing things TO other people/ which you would not have done unto you. The Wiccan code prohibits doing /anything/ which harms others. Even incidentally; even indirectly. While the others can /by extension/ be considered to prohibit those actions which might harm people incidentally, they do not /specifically/ prohibit those actions; they only tell you not to do something which you wouldn't like someone else to do to you. If you do something which doesn't involve others directly and hurts others only incidentally, you are not "doing unto" others what you wouldn't want done unto you. There are many people in this country who consider themselves good, upstanding Christians, who in their conduct to others obey the Golden Rule, who still dump CFC's into the air, bury toxic waste, etc. The Wiccan rule /specifically/ forbids these actions. By "more sophisticated" I meant "more complex; more subtle and well- developed". That should not have been that difficult to figure out... =========== From: TURTLE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Whoops... Date & Time: 05/08/91 19:59:42 Message Number 16648 >BTW, what's IMHO? In My Humble Opinion. =========== From: SHANDRA To: OPUS Subject: My Move.. Date & Time: 05/08/91 20:56:28 Message Number 16649 I look over at the insane little 'morph as he walks by. "Oh, no you don't," I say, as I run quickly after him and drag him back into the bar. "There's no town out there. In fact, there's nothing else on this island. You planning to swim somewhere?" He doesn't really seem to notice; in fact, he barely seems aware of what's going on around him. "Dammit, this is too weird." I sigh and sit the confused little morph in the nearest seat, watching for his injured behind as I do so. "You," I say, "stay out of trouble! I don't like babysitting." Returning my attention to more important matters, I say to Tampa, "You remember that little problem we had a few years back, when Ice Boy sent some of his people over to try to move in on the Den? I think it might be a good idea to go into the storage shed and uncrate some of the firepower they were packing. It's probably unnecessary, but I've got this feeling, like we might be needing it soon." =========== From: ROBERT To: SCOTT STEEL Subject: Hey, dude... Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:05:08 Message Number 16650 ...you need to post in the Hidden Room soon, you know?? =========== From: SAAVIK To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Huh-uh Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:15:27 Message Number 16651 Drf>... the next thing you should have done is said something like, "I've laid out my feelings. What are you really feeling?" We talked.... I told him how I felt, He told me how he felt.... =========== From: SAAVIK To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Birth Control Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:17:06 Message Number 16652 Tantric Yoga sounds like a bummer for the guy....... and also sounds like a lot of work... besides, I don't know too many men who could concentrate that hard on anything but the sex.... =========== From: SAAVIK To: CRYSTAL Subject: Energized Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:18:24 Message Number 16653 Hey, when ya got a new peice of furniture, ya gotta let go and talk about it.... sometimes a new peice of furniture can make you feel a whole lot better about the whole house... =========== From: SAAVIK To: CRYSTAL Subject: Huh-uh Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:19:47 Message Number 16654 I did. I talked, I screamed, I cried.... I couldn't stop crying.... I talked some more, I cried some more.... now I'm just numb.... but he has really been trying to understand and to make things better.... I just wish this numbness would go away..... =========== From: SAAVIK To: TURTLE Subject: Energized Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:27:24 Message Number 16655 Are you running a home for wayward picks???? Geez, you even end up with all the homeless yo yo's in the universe. =========== From: SAAVIK To: TURTLE Subject: Huh-uh Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:28:42 Message Number 16656 Yeah, yeah, I know there are some wrongs that are definately wrong no matter how you look at it... what I meant to say, is that there are always two sides to every issue.... and if you can see both sides.. you have a better picture.... =========== From: SAAVIK To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:37:33 Message Number 16657 Thanks for the encouragement on my cutting down on smoking. I can say that I'm still doing pretty well, I am down to about a half a pack a day on the average..... =========== From: SAAVIK To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:38:43 Message Number 16658 CD>What I get is that religious discussions, by the very nature, cannot be "intelligent", or "logical"..... There's too many theories and different beliefs out there.... and not enough iron clad fact... everything falls back to faith.... I just don't have enough facts or knowledge of different religions to speak of it...... and I absolutely hate being 'preached' to.... =========== From: SAAVIK To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: GOD's sense of Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:41:59 Message Number 16659 CD> What's that bird that comes in for a landing and flops like a whale? I dunno, but God must have been in an especially good mood when he made those lizards who stand on the hind legs and run.... I die laughing whenever I see that on TV =========== From: SAAVIK To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Relationships Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:44:28 Message Number 16660 CD>..if each of us were able to free ourselves from limiting beliefs, we could let ourselves be who we more deeply are..... Amen!!!!! But society simply won't allow that.... =========== From: SAAVIK To: DEATH FENNEC Subject: More Problems. Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:45:58 Message Number 16661 Why are you going to California? Is there something there for you? Perhaps if it is only for a short while, you can take that time to evaluate your feelings for Lisa.... =========== From: SAAVIK To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Pres. Quayle Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:48:18 Message Number 16662 President Quayle? Now there's a nightmare waiting to happen... or so I understand from all the news..... he seems to frighten the media. =========== From: SAAVIK To: SCOTT STEEL Subject: DINK? Me?? Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:54:41 Message Number 16663 SS>I was thinking more on the lines of a rump-roast myself. (snicker) Urg..... Once upon a time, that was actually my nickname.... Rump roast. Long story, stupid ending.... never mind.... =========== From: SAAVIK To: SCOTT STEEL Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/08/91 21:56:11 Message Number 16664 Yes, but is nicotine addiction actually related to stress... or is it just the oral fixation of smoking that makes us want a cigarette when there is more stress... ??? I actually smoke less when I am depressed.... more if i am busy, like talking or typing.... or on the phone. =========== From: SAAVIK To: SHANDRA Subject: Tama Date & Time: 05/08/91 22:00:54 Message Number 16665 Tampa eyed Shandra a moment, considering her suggestion. "Yes, I think you're right." She snapped her fingers at Jarvis, knowing that he hated when she did that. Reluctantly, Jarvis set down the tumbler he was shaking and stepped out from behind the bar. "Yes?" His voice was lined with irritation. "I want you to have some of the boys go over and bring those crates of firearms over here." Seeing the shadow cross Jarvis's face, Tampa lowered her voice another notch. "The less said the better, but I think we may have some problems... better safe than sorry." "But.." Jarvis started to complain. "Just do it." Tampa cut him off and turned away without waiting for his reply. 'Damn, I wish Korelyan was here.' she thought to herself as she scanned her eyes over a pair of newcomers entering the bar. Anyone here could be dangerous.... with so many strangers coming and going.. even with Louis checking them at the door, all it would take was one well placed explosive device.. =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: ALL Subject: 100 years old Date & Time: 05/08/91 23:46:06 Message Number 16666 ThFig Newton was 100 years old today. (just something to add to your collection of useless trivia...) =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: SCOTT STEEL Subject: Say how? Date & Time: 05/09/91 11:06:32 Message Number 16668 >That's a pretty silly question, do ya think? >If there were medical documentation the back up EITHER position, we'd >know for sure now wouldn't we. No, I don't think it's a silly question, and I still don't. There's a lot we can do on this board, mulling over concepts. But when our conversations reach the real world -- and things which affect our lives -- then I like to have a corroboration with the real world. Also, even if there's medical documentation backing up a position, it ain't necessarily so. Only over time and a fair amount of experi- mentation can we know whether something works or not. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: TURTLE Subject: Moral philos. Date & Time: 05/09/91 11:15:29 Message Number 16669 T> [Moral preaching] Well, let's take this one step at a time. I never stated that the Wiccan "As it harms none, do as thou wilt" and the Buddhist "Do not do unto others what you would not have them do unto you" were the same. I said they were "approximately the same..., one stated positively, one stated negatively." Your argument seemed to shove together the Buddhist position with the Jewish one: the Jewish rule makes NO mention of prohibiting anything. Only the Buddhist one does. Even still, your argument seems to be: The difference between the Wiccan rule and the Buddhist rule is that of indirect versus direct harm. The Buddhist rule only prohibits direct harm to others; the Wiccan rule prohibits any action that can, directly or indirectly, harm another. Sounds like a good summary? You yourself destroy that argument. "If you do something which doesn't involve others directly and hurts others only incidentally, you are not 'doing onto' others what you wouldn't have done unto you." In other words, indirect harm is also part of the Buddhist rule. (The difference, as I see it, is that the Wiccan rule promotes activity, and supports the human will. The Buddhist rule promotes passivity, and makes no mention of the will.) I see the Jewish rule as the superior one. If you saw a child about to drown, only the Jewish rule would ask you do save the child. Inaction could be justified in Wicca: the child is harming herself, you are not harming the child. The Buddhist rule is worse: you are not doing anything to worsen the child's problem. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: SAAVIK Subject: Huh-uh Date & Time: 05/09/91 11:43:38 Message Number 16670 >We talked.... I told him how I felt, He told me how he felt.... Glad to hear it. Hope the two of you reach a good compromize. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: SAAVIK Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/09/91 11:48:20 Message Number 16671 >I am down to about half a pack a day on the average..... Keep up the great work! Sounds like you'll be able to make the big plunge REAL soon. (Try thinking about what you'll GAIN from quitting cigarettes: how good food will taste, how much better your lungs will feel, how you won't have to step outside every so often. Think that you'll be much more "kissable" to your husband, think about the money you'll save, think about what you'll do with the extra years on your life.) //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: SAAVIK Subject: Pres. Quayle Date & Time: 05/09/91 11:53:47 Message Number 16672 >He seems to frighten the media. He seems to frighten the world! He's not a bad person, but he doesn't seem to have the strength of character needed to be President. His Senate record was undistinguished: he tended to be a party main- liner. But, he's good-looking, and he won't upset Bush's plans. (Ya know, I'd recommend Gov. Wilson of California for Bush's running mate in '92. Just in case anyone's curious.) //Dragonfly// =========== From: DEATH FENNEC To: SAAVIK Subject: More Problems. Date & Time: 05/09/91 14:09:21 Message Number 16673 I already know my feelings for her. I love Lisa, and I want to be with her for as long as possible, but there is nothinig really here for someone like me. I need to get away from Florida, BUT NOT AWAY FROM HER. She is the only thing that is standing in my way. My feelings for her are great, and I do not want to lose her. I Love her, but I still want to go ... I talked with her Yesterday, and she was very depressed, and so was I. Only I guess that I have too much feelings for her, bec- ause I was CRYING over it. I just sat and cried for awhile. I want for her to go, too, but that will not work. I have already tried asking if it could be possible to work, but until Ken Sable and I are financially set, then I do not think that she should be coming out. I Love Her So ... /| De(pressed)ath Fennec -- ;> =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: KNIGHT OWL Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/09/91 17:20:28 Message Number 16675 C'mon, you & I & everyone knows that God isn't any gender: it's our language that forces a gender on any sentient being (real or imagined). =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: God's gender Date & Time: 05/09/91 17:21:59 Message Number 16676 Hmmm...can God reproduce him/her/it/self?? Without another God?? =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/09/91 17:23:21 Message Number 16677 I doubt that. Religious discussions can only be based on subjective beliefs, so that the "logic" is always flawed by "beliefs assumed to be factual". Not only will "not everyone will agree with the conclusions," not everyone will agree with the original assumptions! =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Tantric Sex Date & Time: 05/09/91 17:25:15 Message Number 16678 I understand that the man's sexual feelings go well beyond "normal" sexual feelings (UNLESS the act is done primarily FOR the sexual feelings, and not for the Enlightenment)..... =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Relationships Date & Time: 05/09/91 17:28:45 Message Number 16679 Word play: wanna define "love" for us? And who said that ALL our beliefs are limiting? Are we afraid to examine those which really may be so? =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: TURTLE Subject: Buscaglia Date & Time: 05/09/91 17:30:45 Message Number 16680 Heheheh....perhaps me too.... =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: TURTLE Subject: Reverence Date & Time: 05/09/91 17:31:22 Message Number 16681 Heheh....hey, I may join a really clean Jewish group; they meet at Temple Bon-Ami....... (arrgggh) =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: SAAVIK Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/09/91 17:34:38 Message Number 16682 Great; keep it up: it's worth the hassles.... Someday, IF I end up dying of a smoking-related disease, I'll feel good knowing I might have helped in a very small way, by encouraging a few others to quit.... =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: SAAVIK Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/09/91 17:37:12 Message Number 16683 Agreed. Therefore, let us go on to other subjects. (God willing).... :) =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: SAAVIK Subject: Running Liz's Date & Time: 05/09/91 17:38:14 Message Number 16684 Heheheh....I know what you mean: those guys are a riot!! I can't figure out how they keep from falling either backward or forward!! =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: SAAVIK Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/09/91 17:39:14 Message Number 16685 Society sure fights it. E.g., family is better than non-family, drug use=drug abuse, prurient materials are bad (and non-art), heros must kill (or direct the killing of) others...etc.... Yet, especially when we're young, we can keep from getting sucked in... =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: ALL Subject: CYA Date & Time: 05/09/91 17:53:49 Message Number 16686 Welp...gonna go to PA for a week, so all messages after this will not have thier responses read for a week. Just so you knew... =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: KNIGHT OWL Subject: Hey! Date & Time: 05/09/91 17:58:50 Message Number 16687 Hmmm. Yes, I think that I had heard you tell Saavik that [about your handle]. No, I haven't read HACKERS. What's it about? =========== From: THE SPECIALIST To: TURTLE Subject: Whoops... Date & Time: 05/09/91 18:03:56 Message Number 16688 DF>BTW, what's IMHO? T>In My Humble Opinion. Humble? HAH! =========== From: OPUS To: SHANDRA Subject: Humph! Date & Time: 05/09/91 19:18:07 Message Number 16689 "Babysit", Kheblan exlcaims, "You treat me as if I'm insane!" "Well the least I can do it go out the the shed with Tampa, I do have a little experiance with heavey and light arms, and it has been so long since I've been in a fight," Kheblan chiprs, then comes to his sences, "Excuse me, but your expecting someone to attack here??? Hmm, If I recall I got bitched at when I first came here because I mentioned the word violence , well anyways, I'll help Tampa, and take a load off your back, 'babysitting' wise..." =========== From: OPUS To: SAAVIK Subject: Explosives Date & Time: 05/09/91 19:22:33 Message Number 16690 "A while back a freind of mine in the service was an explosive specialist, he had the best nose on all of FurBell Station 34.2.1a. A little of his couldn't couldn't help but rub off on me, I'd be glad to sniff the place later on if you'd like me too, that is, after I go help 'the boys'. Just tell me what you think." Kheblan rattles on, and on, and on... =========== From: TURTLE To: SAAVIK Subject: Energized Date & Time: 05/09/91 21:23:04 Message Number 16691 >Are you running a home for wayward picks???? Not intentionally, but sometimes it sure seems that way. >Geez, you even end up with all the homeless yo-yo's in the universe. And that isn't all. The newest member of our happy little family is a gigantic pair of black cyberpunk glasses that look like they belong on one of the random thugs in "Bladerunner." No trace of an owner can be found for them, either. Come to think of it, I'm not terribly sure how the damn teletype machine ended up in my attic, either. =========== From: TURTLE To: SAAVIK Subject: Huh-uh Date & Time: 05/09/91 21:25:29 Message Number 16692 >...what I meant to say, is that there are always two sides to every >issue... Now there's dipolar thinking for you. Most reasonably interesting issues have far more than two sides to 'em. Trying to see /all/ the sides is likely to give you the clearest picture of the situation. =========== From: TURTLE To: KNIGHT OWL Subject: 100 years old Date & Time: 05/09/91 21:28:08 Message Number 16693 >ThFig Newton was 100 years old today. Whose Fig Newton? Lord knows I've found some stuff in the fridge that's going on a couple of decades, but damn, I ain't never found anything that's /that/ old... =========== From: TURTLE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Moral philos. Date & Time: 05/09/91 21:30:25 Message Number 16694 >You yourself destroy that argument. I certainly do not. I can see where you arrive at that conclusion, though; you did not correctly understand the sentence which you quoted back. That sentence supports, not demolsihes, my argument. Please go back and re-read it. Your point about the drowning child is well taken; only the Golden Rule /mandates/ that you take action to save the child in that situation. Obviously, none of the rules we are discussing is in and of itself a complete moral code. You can't really put an entire system of ethics into a single sentence; I still believe that the Wiccan effort is more broad and hits closer to the mark than the Golden Rule, however. =========== From: TURTLE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Compro--huh? Date & Time: 05/09/91 21:34:07 Message Number 16695 >Hope the two of you reach a good compromize. "Compromise." (Heh, heh, heh.) That reminds me in an offhand way though of an article by Douglas Hofstadter about compromise; it's not always the appropriate solution to a problem. If Jimmy and Sammy are arguing about dividing a cake, with Jimmy saying he wants half of it and Sammy demanding all of it, a rational person would not say, "Okay, now you two compromise. Jimmy can have one-third of it, and Sammy can have two- thirds." It's dangerous to assume that compromise is the solution to a problem you don't have any direct knowledge of; people have an annoying habit of believing justice must lie halfway between two opposing points of view, and in reality t'ain't always so. =========== From: TURTLE To: DEATH FENNEC Subject: More Problems. Date & Time: 05/09/91 21:38:02 Message Number 16696 >I already know my feelings for her. Have you looked at them objectively? It can't hurt; if you two really love each other then your trip won't end that, but it /will/ give you a chance to step back and look at your feelings a little more clearly. Hey, it couldn't hurt.................. =========== From: TURTLE To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Tantric Sex Date & Time: 05/09/91 21:40:06 Message Number 16697 >I understand that the man's sexual feelings go well beyond "normal" >sexual feelings (UNLESS the act is done primarily FOR the sexual >feelings...) Sounds like a whole new twist on the concept of 'recreational sex.' You know, this idea is beginning to intrigue me... =========== From: TURTLE To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Reverence Date & Time: 05/09/91 21:42:49 Message Number 16698 >...Temple Bon-Ami........ >(arrgggh) You said it. =========== From: TURTLE To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/09/91 21:44:04 Message Number 16699 >Yet, especially when we're young, we can keep from getting sucked in... Yeah, but those who /don't/ then spend a good deal of time harassing, abusing, or otherwise molesting those who haven't accepted the whole ball of wax; there's something in there that says that not only are society's conventions a good thing to have, but intolerance of other conventions is equally important. Grr... =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/09/91 22:37:03 Message Number 16700 >C'mon, you & I & everyone knows that God isn't any gender... Really? There've been a bunch of religions where the gods were EMPHATICALLY of gender... >It's our language that forces a gender on any sentient being (real >or imagined). And there are religions which say God isn't sentient. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: God's gender Date & Time: 05/09/91 22:40:10 Message Number 16701 >Can God reproduce him/her/it/self?? Without another God?? Well, if She couldn't reproduce, that means She wouldn't be omnipotent, right? But, personally, I think She's waiting for the Perfect Mate. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/09/91 22:41:30 Message Number 16702 I agree completely that not everyone will agree with the assumptions. But "logic" -- to me, at least -- does not deal with the assumptions, only with how the assumptions are put together. For example: The Armadillo is God. All armadillos are purple. ------------------------------- God is purple. Completely correct logic: but most people would disagree with both assumptions and the conclusion. This is what happens in religious discussions. Logic might be flawless, but assumptions are shaky. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Relationships Date & Time: 05/09/91 22:45:42 Message Number 16703 >And who said that ALL our beliefs are limiting? I did, and still stand on that. All beliefs are limiting. We should only throw out useless beliefs. >Are we afraid to examine those which really may be so? No. But give me an example of a non-limiting belief first. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: TURTLE Subject: Energized Date & Time: 05/09/91 22:49:29 Message Number 16704 >Gigantic pair of black cyberpunk glasses... Hmmm... ask Fennic if he borrowed them from a school chum. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: TURTLE Subject: Huh-uh Date & Time: 05/09/91 22:50:25 Message Number 16705 >Trying to see /all/ the sides is likely to give you the clearest >picture of the situation. Yes, but only insects have enough eyes to do that. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: TURTLE Subject: Moral philos. Date & Time: 05/09/91 22:58:03 Message Number 16706 I don't see how your sentence ("If you do something which doesn't harm others directly and hurts others only incidentally, you are not 'doing onto' others what you wouldn't want done unto you.") could be taken to mean ANYTHING but both direct and indirect harm is prohibited. Changing the topic slightly, you said, "You can't really put an entire system of ethics into a single sentence." My question: Do you feel you can put an entire system of ethics into English? Is ethics completely describable? I agree that the Wiccan rule is more broad than the Jewish rule. I also agree that Crowley's rule is more broad than the two of them. So what? Which of the two comes "closer to the mark," of course depends on your full system of ethics: I'm sure the two of us would disagree on a huge number of points on what's ethical. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: TURTLE Subject: Compro--huh? Date & Time: 05/09/91 23:06:18 Message Number 16707 Douglas Hofstadter stole the idea from Raymond Smullyan. Fine. May I substitute the word "agreement"? //Dragonfly// =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: TURTLE Subject: 100 years old Date & Time: 05/10/91 07:00:41 Message Number 16708 T> Who's Fig Newton? Nobody, it's the fig-filled cookie made by Nabisco. L8R! Knight Owl (also available in strawberry & blueberry, I think...) =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: ALL Subject: New & Improved! Date & Time: 05/10/91 15:13:10 Message Number 16709 Call Ye Olde English Den! It's up 24 hours a day, running on C-net. supporting 00-1200 baud. The # is 493-8401 (This is an unpaid non-political announcement) On-line games!!!!!! =========== From: OPUS To: ALL! Subject: Uhh.. Date & Time: 05/10/91 18:48:11 Message Number 16710 I sat down the other day and had a strange idea, I figured I would share it with you. Everyone has certain traits that seperate him/her from other hims/hers. (Hair Color, Eye Color, Height, etc...) So I asked myself, I wonder in color perception is differnt to people, and since it is impossible to describe colors (How do you tell a blind person what red looks like?) we may never know, here is my idea. Everyone views colors differntly from everyone else, For Example let'sgo down to the three basic colors Red, Blue, and Yellow. Now I was wondering, How do I know that my yellow isn't your Blue, and your red my blue? If you are brought up that grass is GREEN you'd always think green was the color of grass, but I might see grass to be a differnt color, but I would still think it was Green since everyone has me it is green. So, this means, that some people may see the world in the reverse of what I, or anyone else, perceives it to be. The same concept can also be applied to White and Black.. So did ANYONE understand what I'm trying to say??? I sure would like to answer this some day, before I pull ALL my hair out! =========== From: SAAVIK To: DEATH FENNEC Subject: More Problems. Date & Time: 05/10/91 19:23:06 Message Number 16712 Well, as long as you love each other... then you can work around the distance for a while.. you can draw her pictures and send her poetry in the mail. And if finances allow, you can call her, and she can call you. If the pain is too great of being away from her.... you can always come back... but I'd give it a chance if I were you.. you may find that you really like California. =========== From: SAAVIK To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Reverence Date & Time: 05/10/91 19:26:05 Message Number 16713 CD>...a really clean Jewish group; they meet at the Temple Bon-Ami.... I like the really COOL Jewish group across town; they meet at the Temple Bon-Jovi.... Sorry, it was there, I hadda say it. God will get me for that I'm sure. =========== From: SAAVIK To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/10/91 19:28:08 Message Number 16714 Arg, some days I'm back sliding and smoking more... but i'm keeping it down as much as I can.... Something deep down inside of me just isn't ready to give it up yet... =========== From: SAAVIK To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Running Liz's Date & Time: 05/10/91 19:29:29 Message Number 16715 Those lizards are FAST!!! But they look so stupid! Like a cross between a chicken and an iguana. Do you watch the discovery channel by chance? They really have some good programming. =========== From: SAAVIK To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/10/91 19:31:25 Message Number 16716 I can't believe how intense Peer pressure is.... I mean, Wow. I remember it being bad when I was in school... but it seems to have gotten a lot worse. I don't think you can blame Everything on society... I think the Media promotes a lot of that. =========== From: SAAVIK To: TURTLE Subject: Energized Date & Time: 05/10/91 19:35:20 Message Number 16717 If I recall, Scott Steel used to call you a Babe Magnet.... could it be that the sunglasses and the Yo yo and all the other aquired stuff misunderstood and thought you were a junk magnet?? Well, it was just a thought. =========== From: CRYSTAL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/11/91 00:30:54 Message Number 16719 DrF> Try thinking about what you'll gain from quitting cigarettes.... Yes, all that is well and good, but their is still nothing better than a good cigarette. Your X smoked * CRYSTAL * =========== From: TURTLE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Moral philos. Date & Time: 05/11/91 01:08:14 Message Number 16720 If you do something which does not harm anyone directly and harms others only indirectly, you are not 'doing unto' others what you would not have them done unto you. That means: If you do something which harms others only indirectly, you are not doing unto others what you would not have them do unto you. The part you are not interpreting correctly is the clause 'you are not doing unto others...' What I am saying is this: If you do that which harms others only indirectly, you are not doing anything UNTO OTHERS; you are doing something which is not directed at other people but which involves them only incidentally. You are not 'doing unto others what you would not hav them do unto you'; you are not violating the Golden Rule. If you re-read the sentence again, you will see that in interpreting it as you are you are losing the negation in the last clause. >Do you think you can express a complete set of ethics in English? That's an issue that has nothing to do with what I was discussing, and frankly I'm not that interested in getting into a discussion on semantics and linguistics. Sufice it to say that I don't think there's anything terribly mysterious about ethics, or even anything intrinsic- ally different from any other complex belief sets. I certainly don't see any reason why a complete set of ethics can't be stated in any particular language you care to name. =========== From: TURTLE To: KNIGHT OWL Subject: 100 years old Date & Time: 05/11/91 01:17:52 Message Number 16721 KO> Who's Fig Newton? That's not what I said. I said, 'Whose Fig Newton'? You said the Fig Newton was 100 years old; I know /I/ don't have any that old, and was wondering if maybe /yours/ was. =========== From: TURTLE To: OPUS Subject: Uhh.. Date & Time: 05/11/91 01:19:11 Message Number 16722 The idea you state about color perception is hardly a new one; I came up with it independantly many, many years ago, and it wasn't new then. That question also came up in a college neurophysiology class I had a few years back. Suffice it to say there's a certain amount of physio- logical evidence that suggests color perception does not differ all that radically between individuals, and we'll leave it at that...unless you want me to dust off the old notes and let you have 'em... (heh, heh) =========== From: TURTLE To: SAAVIK Subject: Energized Date & Time: 05/11/91 01:22:48 Message Number 16723 >If I recall, Scott Steel used to call you a Babe Magnet.... Yeah, and he still does, and he's not the only one. I wish everybody /couldn't/ recall, actually. >...thought you were a junk magnet?? I AM a junk magnet! Trouble is, that stuff isn't junk. I dunno, it just works out that way. =========== From: SCOTT STEEL To: KNIGHT OWL Subject: Dinosaurs Date & Time: 05/11/91 01:50:46 Message Number 16724 I watched Dinosaurs tonight, as a matter of fact, I thought it was pretty funny. (The episode where the husband was going to throw his mother-in-law in the tar pit.) =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: TURTLE Subject: 100 years old Date & Time: 05/11/91 13:47:28 Message Number 16726 I thought about the way I posted that... only it was too late. Let's put it this way: The Fig Newton cookie has been in production for 100 years. Better? Newton is a town in Massechusetts, I believe. =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: TURTLE Subject: junk Date & Time: 05/11/91 13:54:23 Message Number 16727 What ever happened to that Yo-Yo? Did ya sell it to Duncan Donuts? (I know, it was a bad pun...) [grin] =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Buddhist Morals Date & Time: 05/11/91 14:40:33 Message Number 16728 I don't think you quite have the Buddhist moral position down very well; one of the problems is that Buddhism is like Christianity in that there are dozens - hundreds! - of Buddhist "churches" (organized groups). For instance, one group (well, probably alot more than one) believes that one should not kill, or cause to be killed, any living thing. Dick Gregory had (has?) this position. He eats only "parts" of vegetable matter -- nuts, fruits, etc. From about 8 years of research, my sense is that most Buddhists believe that if the results of any action are "bad" (and if one knows this), the action is wrong, and a good Buddhist would not perform that action (Karma and all that). An interesting aside is that the 10 Commandments are supposedly God's word on what one should not do. In Buddhism (or at least some groups), there are almost exactly those same 10 "commandments", but they are prefaced by: A Buddhist has no reason to: 1 - Kill 2 - Slander 3 - (etc.) Nontheless, with Buddhism arising from a very "old" civilization, the moral precepts tend to be (in my opinion) rather well-followed.... =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: TURTLE Subject: Tantric Sex Date & Time: 05/11/91 14:51:50 Message Number 16729 It is, apparently, an incredible experience - and for reasons beyond sex. The "peak experience" is supposed to be a new relationship to "existence"...I've only met one person who practiced it, and he said not to even CONSIDER it unless one is serious about Enlightenment... hmmm.... =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: TURTLE Subject: Reverence Date & Time: 05/11/91 14:53:48 Message Number 16730 Didn't like that Temple Bon-Ami, eh?? Ok, well watch it: I'm now attending a really tough Italian church: Church of the Double Cross... =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: TURTLE Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/11/91 14:54:47 Message Number 16731 Yeah, it's tough to stay free from social pushes....but it's worth it: I've seen some succomb, others transcend...... =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/11/91 14:56:17 Message Number 16732 There aren't many religions left which believe in "the gods", and of course, that wasn't the issue. And "sentient" definitions are certainly not the issue. =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: God's gender Date & Time: 05/11/91 14:57:51 Message Number 16733 Maybe it's YOU!!! =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/11/91 14:58:27 Message Number 16734 Re logic, no, what you gave was not correct "logic" - it was correct logical processing. I consider logic the skill of determining correct conclusions from correct assumptions ("correct", or "proven", or "provable").... When we talk of purple Gods or armadillos we're recreating, not having a "logical discussion"... =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Relationships Date & Time: 05/11/91 15:00:51 Message Number 16735 Beliefs which don't limit our view of what is possible, e.g., that humans have the capability of reaching goals we currently don't think we can reach.... =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: OPUS Subject: Colors Date & Time: 05/11/91 15:04:03 Message Number 16736 Re colors, not easy to "prove" that my perception of green is the "same" as yours. But I don't think that carries over to, say, white and black (since "luminence" is a variable which we can, at least on some level "measure" - i.e., we agree that there is more "brightness" to white than gray)... =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: SAAVIK Subject: Reverence Date & Time: 05/11/91 15:06:19 Message Number 16737 Heheheh.....just don't get involved in any oppresive religion, like Our Lady of Perpetual Responsibility..... =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: SAAVIK Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/11/91 15:07:14 Message Number 16738 Stay with it: experience the experience of giving it up...... =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: SAAVIK Subject: Discovery Chann Date & Time: 05/11/91 15:07:47 Message Number 16739 I watch it occasionally: kinda tough for my ol' tv to get channel 1... but if I "detune" it enough, I can sorta get it... =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: SAAVIK Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/11/91 15:08:45 Message Number 16740 I think that the media is a part of "society". Society ain't an independent thing: it's a "conglomeration", and we, each of us, play our part in it as well! No one of us can control it, but we can take responsibility for doing our creative best to aim its values in what we think are good directions. I remember a number of musically proficient friends who got some excellent musical insights when high (usually grass); should we negate those insights by saying "Drugs Are Bad", "Don't Think: Just Say No"...???? Yet no one (or few) of us will change those social beliefs, and they probably _won't_ change until other factors on this crazy planet change as well.... =========== From: OPUS To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Brightness. Date & Time: 05/11/91 19:03:00 Message Number 16741 Evertone agrees that white is bright, and black is dark, but if you were always pointed to soemthing that was black and told that is was bright since the moment you were born you'd assume that it was bright, and I would assume it was bright, but if I was to go into your body, having prvious knowledge of what is "bright" and what is not, I'd think that you saw the world in reverse of what I did, since black would be dark to you, but your black would be my white, so it'd be light to me! Oh well, I doubt anyone every did, or every will figure it out. =========== From: RAT To: OPUS Subject: STRANGENESS Date & Time: 05/11/91 19:22:47 Message Number 16742 When people right messages like the one about briteness, it kinda messes up my brain and makes me smell badly.(I mean spell badly).If possible, please DONT RITE MESSAGES LIKE THAT ANYMORE!! THANK YOU, {a messed up} rat =========== From: TURTLE To: KNIGHT OWL Subject: 100 years old Date & Time: 05/12/91 00:19:10 Message Number 16744 >Newton is a town in Massechusetts [sic], I believe. Well, actually, the town is "Newton Centre." The Newton Centre Z-Node (a /very/ large Remote Z-System and MSTF member system) is there, along with Jay Sage, professor at MIT and big-time Z-System developer/hacker/ enthusiast. =========== From: TURTLE To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/12/91 00:22:32 Message Number 16745 >When we talk of purple Gods or armadillos we're recreating, not having >a "logical discussion"... Or, as Mark Twain put it, "faith is believing what you know ain't so." I've seen religious discussions that are put together in the same way as logical discussions, but there's always gonna be that leap of faith buried in there somewhere....try as you might to conceal it.... =========== From: TURTLE To: OPUS Subject: Brightness. Date & Time: 05/12/91 00:25:39 Message Number 16746 You can call 'bright' anything you want to, but that doesn't change the perceptive qualities of it. If you have always used the word 'bright' to refer to dark objects, that doesn't mean your world would be th reverse of someone who did not; it just means you use different words for the same phenomenon. =========== From: TURTLE To: RAT Subject: STRANGENESS Date & Time: 05/12/91 00:27:07 Message Number 16747 >...please DONT RITE MESSAGES LIKE THAT ANYMORE!! Or write them, even?? =========== From: SAAVIK To: TURTLE Subject: 100 years old Date & Time: 05/12/91 10:19:22 Message Number 16749 Fig Newton is 100? Ewwww, I wouldn't eat anything /that/ old... I've heard that Twinkies have that kind of shelf life.... but I don't think I'll put that theory to the test.. =========== From: SAAVIK To: OPUS Subject: Uhh.. Date & Time: 05/12/91 10:26:14 Message Number 16750 You bring up an interesting point... take color blind people for instance. Colors cannot be described with words, they must be viewed. If a blind person from birth suddenly regained their sight... they would not know that Green was the color of grass.... but they would be able to see the grass.... and the color... just not know what it was called. =========== From: SAAVIK To: CRYSTAL Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/12/91 10:29:21 Message Number 16751 Um, Crystal.... I beg to differ.... ther ARE better things than a good cigarette.... but they are even better when followed with a Good Cigarette, eh? =========== From: SAAVIK To: TURTLE Subject: Energized Date & Time: 05/12/91 10:32:00 Message Number 16752 Maybe the sunglasses just popped over to check out Crystals new couch. =========== From: SAAVIK To: SCOTT STEEL Subject: Dinosaurs Date & Time: 05/12/91 10:32:56 Message Number 16753 "Not the Mamma, Not the Mamma" Bang Bang Bang... (sigh) it was all to familiar... hehehe. Actually, I found that show annoying somehow. =========== From: SAAVIK To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Reverence Date & Time: 05/12/91 10:35:53 Message Number 16754 Our Lady of Perpetual Responsibility? Sounds boring... hey! That sounds like my life!!!!!! Do they pass out peanut butter sandwitches and milk instead of bread and wine? =========== From: SAAVIK To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Reverence Date & Time: 05/12/91 10:37:19 Message Number 16755 And when they pass around the offering plate, do people put in clipped coupons instead of money? =========== From: SAAVIK To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/12/91 10:37:58 Message Number 16756 CD>...experience the experience of giving it up.... I'll smoke to that! Sorry, its just one of those backsliding days. =========== From: SAAVIK To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/12/91 10:39:26 Message Number 16757 Yeah, but the Media influences society as a whole.. How many times have you heard about a court case, then a few months later, TV makes one of those annoying Made for Television movies about it and changes everyones view of the whole incident. They only put in the facts THEY want to put across, they can completely destroy the facts with fiction of their own liking... The the bit about the Atlanta Child Murders... the TV movie made the guy who was arrested look like an innocent victem of the law. =========== From: SAAVIK To: TURTLE Subject: 100 years old Date & Time: 05/12/91 10:43:35 Message Number 16758 T> Actually, the town is "Newton Centre". ..... along with Jay Sage, professor at MIT and big-time Z-System developer/hacker/enthusiast. Is there anyone that the shelled one /doesn't/ know? =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: OPUS Subject: Brightness. Date & Time: 05/12/91 11:43:23 Message Number 16759 No, your perceptions wouldn't change if bodies were switched. Just the words to describe 'bright' and 'dark'.... =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: TURTLE Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/12/91 11:44:59 Message Number 16760 I agree completely (which makes for a lousy debate!) =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: SAAVIK Subject: Perpet. Respons Date & Time: 05/12/91 11:46:32 Message Number 16761 Heheheh....no, you gotta cook for everyone else there! Heavy stuff.... =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: SAAVIK Subject: Reverence Date & Time: 05/12/91 11:47:09 Message Number 16762 hahahaha..... The Church is made of cement of course.... =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: SAAVIK Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/12/91 11:47:47 Message Number 16763 Heheheh....yeah, I know what you mean... But seriously (folks), being a HEAVILY addicted smoker is NOT fun, nor is it cheap, nor is it safe. I salute ANYone who can give it up. =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: SAAVIK Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/12/91 11:49:51 Message Number 16764 That can happen, but (I believe) not often. I guess the "bottom line" is, how can we _ever_ know the "facts"...they have to be communicated from SOMEplace, and (as in crimes and other misdemeanors) often the only ones who _know_ the truth won't tell it! =========== From: KYARA TOKYO To: ROBERT Subject: Moving along Date & Time: 05/12/91 13:53:54 Message Number 16765 Kyara lets Robert massage her shoulders and relaxes herself so that he will not be able to sense her slight tension. She closes her eyes and moans softly. She mumbles, "My sword has been in my family for generations. I am an only child, so I was given the sword when my father died." =========== From: RAT To: TURTLE Subject: STRANGENESS Date & Time: 05/12/91 17:50:30 Message Number 16766 r>...please DONT RITE MESSAGES LIKE THAT ANYMORE!! T>Or write them, even?? I don't even want you to right them!!!!! By the way, how do you skip a line when you're writing a message? I've been dying to know my entire life. =========== From: OPUS To: SAAVIK Subject: Colors Date & Time: 05/12/91 18:52:55 Message Number 16767 They would porbably know green was the color of grass, but they wouldn't know for example, that ugg, my Prodify book is Oragne, or something uncommon like that. It seems to me, if we can have color blind people, why can't we have People Who See Colors Differntly People? =========== From: OPUS To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Hmm.. Date & Time: 05/12/91 18:55:37 Message Number 16768 Well if my black looked liek white to you, and your nlack looked like white to me, then our perceptions WOULD be changed, and our ideas of what is light or dark would also be reversed. Here's an example, let's say your brain is programed like this: With ColorThatISaw do If X length of Light Waves then color = Blue; If Y length of Light Waves then color = Green; May I should rephrase that. Learned Colors = Green, Red, Blue With Color That I Saw do If X length of light wave then color = 1; If Y length of light wave then color = 2; Now, If you saw Color 1, then you saw what you have been told is green. So, let's say someone else has If X length of light wave then color = 2; If Y length of light wave then color = 1; What you are told are the colors (Green, Red, Blue), haven't changed, but the way that person B's brain figures them out HAS chnaged, now why can't it be possible? BTW, did the above example make any sence at all? =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: CRYSTAL Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/12/91 21:48:09 Message Number 16770 C> Yes, all that is well and good, but their is still nothing better C> than a good cigarette. Not even sex? //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: TURTLE Subject: Moral philos. Date & Time: 05/12/91 21:50:06 Message Number 16771 T> If you do that which harms others only indirectly, you are not doing T> anything UNTO OTHERS; you are doing something which is not directed T> at other people, but which involves them only incidentally. And you later say that you're not interested in getting into a d discussion on "semantics and linguistics"? I was considering "unto" as a synonym of "to." (By the way, if you must refer to the rules by metals: the Buddhist rule, "Do not do...what you would not have them..." is called the Silver Rule. The Golden Rule drops the "nots" -- and is therefore quite different.) I see your point, though, how "unto" implies not doing anything which directly hurts others, but allows for the possibility of doing things which indirectly hurt others. To change the topic, no, I DON'T believe all of ethics could be stated completely. There's too much situational ethics that's necessary in the world to define ethics. If you accept the commandment: "Thou shalt not murder," I'd ask you to define murder. Is killing in self- defense murder? What about animals? And how does one define self- defense? The circle goes on. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Buddhist Morals Date & Time: 05/12/91 22:07:34 Message Number 16772 (This is what you get for not quite understanding what was being discussed.) Your note was, well, appreciated, though it was way off the mark. One of the sayings of the Buddha, which applies quite well to Western ideas, was the so-called "Silver Rule": "Do not do unto others what you would not have them do unto you." Turtle and I were debating about the differences between Buddhism's "Silver Rule" and the rule the Wiccans believe ("If it harms not others, do as thou wilt."). This kind of splintered from a conversation about which simple moral rule, if taken alone, would lead to the "best" -- and most useful -- morality. We weren't at all trying to set down either the complete Buddhist, Wiccan, or Judaic moral philosophies. Just which "base rule" came the closest to morality. About your "interesting aside:" You might find it interesting to check out the 10 Commandments, and figure out how many of them are of the form: "Thou shalt not..." (Hint: Not one of the first five commandments are negative. They all command you to DO something.) And at least four of the commandments could NOT translate over to Buddhism, even if they wanted to. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: God's gender Date & Time: 05/12/91 22:21:37 Message Number 16773 DrF> ...personally, I think She's waiting for the Perfect Mate. CD> Maybe it's YOU!!! Hee hee hee! ;> Well, I don't like to admit it, but I'm much more interested in Her only begotten Daughter. (She's cute!) //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/12/91 22:34:43 Message Number 16775 CD> I consider logic the skill of determining correct conclusions from CD> correct assumptions ("correct" or "proven", or "provable") Well, we disagree on the definition of logic. I consider logic to be a kind of computer -- utterly incapable of determining what's applyable to the real world, but able to make good judgements, given good data. Also, I take issue with your idea: "correct" or "proven". How do you know when something is "proven"? I prefer the concept of "useful" to describe the world. Scientific theories change as new data enters. (Newton's laws of motion are still extremely "useful" theories -- even though they've been "proven" wrong.) //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: TURTLE Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/12/91 22:42:37 Message Number 16776 > I've seen religious discussions that are put together in the same way > as logical discussions, but there's always gonna be that leap of > faith buried in there somewhere.... try as you might to conceal it.... O H , P L E A S E ! ! ! Spare me, Turtle. I thought you were much more intelligent than that. Do you REALLY think it's possible to have a discussion -- ANY discussion -- without some sort of faith? Even if it's called a "shared world view" (which presupposes that reality exists, and that we usually perceive it correctly) there's a leap of faith. There was a leap of faith when you sat down on the chair you're sitting in. (Even if you've sat in it thousands of times before, inductive reasoning proves nothing.) All of mathematics depends on "leaps of faith." And frequently, mathematicians disagree about those "leaps of faith," or axioms. Because all physical sciences depend on mathematics, those leaps of faith find their way into just about everything. Well, what's the difference between these mathematical axioms and religious axioms? Only one thing: verifiability. There's nothing wrong with leaps of faith. Period. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: SAAVIK Subject: 100 years old Date & Time: 05/12/91 22:51:26 Message Number 16777 S> Is there anyone that the shelled one /doesn't/ know? Yes, but she's not important. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: RAT Subject: STRANGENESS Date & Time: 05/12/91 22:52:57 Message Number 16778 R> By the way, how do you skip a line when you're writing a message? R> I've been dying to know my entire life. "My entire life"? Wow. If you were born after the first BBS's went up, we can excuse a few typos here and there. Anyway, how to skip a line. Hmmm... Pressing doesn't seem to do it. Neither does anything in the Edit menu seem to help... Hmmm... In fact, I don't think there's ANY way of keeping the computer from stopping when you type a completely blank line... Maybe if those lines just seem blank, and actually contain invisible text? Naaah. //Dragonfly// =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: RAT Subject: skipping lines Date & Time: 05/13/91 00:05:06 Message Number 16779 If you wanna skip a line, just hit the space bar and then return. Like that, hehehe... L8R! Knight Owl =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: OPUS Subject: Hmm.. Date & Time: 05/13/91 00:08:21 Message Number 16780 >BTW, did the abov example make any sense at all? yeah, It's kinda like dyslexia, only w/ colors. =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: ALL Subject: Enter Wesley Date & Time: 05/13/91 13:09:41 Message Number 16781 "Yeee- haw!" The hovercraft skipped above the ocean at over a hundred fifty kilos per. Long black hair whipped behind the goggled smiling face. The one-man hovercraft, emblazoned with the UraniCo 2100 trademark, skipped among the Florida islands. He was hot, and he knew it. Within a mile of the Tampa Radiation belt, his Geiger counter started beeping incessantly. He veered to the east, away from the island which was once a city. Some of the smaller islands there had natives trying to get his attention. He just laughed and went onward. He had heard from some older folks about the Den of Decadence: a place where nothing ruled except force. He was going to show them a thing or two! He was pretty good at karate -- he just got his green belt. He could take care of himself. He finally got to the ruins where the Den was located. Remembering the map, he wound his way until he got to the Den, and parked the 'craft. =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: ALL Subject: Wesley Date & Time: 05/13/91 13:23:26 Message Number 16782 I don't want to write the part between the guards of the place and Wesley. Here's his stats: Wesley is, simply, a spoiled brat. His parents own UraniCo, the largest supplier of uranium in the world. (They're centered in New Atlanta, though most of their mines are elsewhere.) He is, of course, armed with three knives: one in each boot, and one strapped under his left sleeve. They shouldn't be too hard for the guards to find, but he'll be REAL upset when they're taken from him. He is fifteen years old, and looks it -- though he THINKS he looks older. He has long, black hair, dark brown eyes, and is one hundred percent human. One of the more unusual items he's carrying is a 'coonskin hat with a nice, long tail. This will figure more prominently later. He has a fake I.D. saying he's twenty-one (though I doubt that will be used.) And the hovercraft is of a model that it's REAL easy to pick the locks and take off on... //Dragonfly// =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: OPUS Subject: Light Date & Time: 05/13/91 19:08:24 Message Number 16785 We gotta be careful here cause we're talking about two different things: one is color, the other (which I'm focusing on) is white vs. black. White is brighter: brightness is light intensity. We can objectively determine white from black by its intensity.... =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: God's Daughter? Date & Time: 05/13/91 19:11:59 Message Number 16786 Hmmmm....how old is..."She"?? =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/13/91 19:12:39 Message Number 16787 One has the same problem with "useful" as with "correct" or "proven": in fact, ANY concept which relates to absolutes (and "useful" - having "value", does relate to absolutes). And Newton's laws were not "Proven wrong": they were just shown to be "local" rather than "universal" in their validity (and they're USEFUL!!) =========== From: CRYSTAL To: SAAVIK Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/13/91 22:17:45 Message Number 16788 S>but they are even better when followed with a Good Cigarette. eh? As usual you are once again correct. * CRYSTAL * =========== From: CRYSTAL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/13/91 22:22:21 Message Number 16789 Drf>Not even sex? Ok so I stand corrected. But I am sure their is someone in this world who has had a better cigarette then sex. * CRYSTAL * =========== From: TURTLE To: SAAVIK Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/14/91 00:37:31 Message Number 16792 >.... ther ARE better things than a good cigarette.... Like the ability to breathe. >...but they are even better when followed with a Good Cigarette, eh? No. Kissing a smoker is like licking an ashtray ...isn't "good cigarette" an oxymoron? =========== From: TURTLE To: SAAVIK Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/14/91 00:39:18 Message Number 16793 >Yeah, but the Media influences society as a whole. And society influences "the Media." What's your point? "The Media" is not this big, mysterious conglomerate that's out to tell you what to think or anything like that; "The Media" is a bunch of people who call it like they see it. "The Media" is your local newscaster, you know? You ever write anything to describe something to someone else, well, you're "The Media" too. If someone writes a bad made-for-TV movie, it's not "The Media"'s fault, it's the fault of the guy who wrote it. Since you're down on "The Media," though, lemme ask you this: If "The Media" didn't tell you about corruption in your school board or asbestos in your drinking water, who the hell would? =========== From: TURTLE To: SAAVIK Subject: 100 years old Date & Time: 05/14/91 00:43:19 Message Number 16794 >Is there anyone that the shelled one /doesn't/ know? Um...Kim Basinger? =========== From: TURTLE To: RAT Subject: STRANGENESS Date & Time: 05/14/91 00:45:25 Message Number 16795 >By the way, how do you skip a line...? You put a space on the line. The blank line right above this one isn't blank; it's got a space in it. You just can't see the space, that's all. =========== From: TURTLE To: OPUS Subject: Colors Date & Time: 05/14/91 00:46:29 Message Number 16796 >...if we have color blind people, why can't we have People Who See >Colors Differently People? Color-blind people have a physical problem with the receptors in their eye or in the circuitry that processes color information in the optic chiasm or the brain that results in information from some of the color receptors not getting processed correctly. As a result, some of the color information is missing. If the system works, it works the same way in every member of a given species. If part of the system doesn't work, you get color blindness or some other visual defect. Very simple, no? =========== From: TURTLE To: OPUS Subject: Hmm.. Date & Time: 05/14/91 00:49:26 Message Number 16797 >[Programming examples] When someone tells you that color X is called "blue," it does not have any effect on the /way/ you perceive that color. It doesn't matter /what/ sound you attach to that color, you perceive it in a given way that's totally unaffected by the color's name. If you told a baby that red was called "blue" for his entire life, he'd still SEE it as red; he'd just use a different pattern of sounds to describe it, that's all. =========== From: TURTLE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Buddhist Morals Date & Time: 05/14/91 00:52:10 Message Number 16798 >...at least four of the commandments could NOT translate over to >Buddhism... Yeah, the damn silly ones that don't have a whole lot of bearing on the way one interacts with the real world ("Thou shalt have no other god before me," etc.) The /useful/ commandments are pretty much universal, simply because it's difficult to build a society without them. =========== From: TURTLE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/14/91 00:54:53 Message Number 16799 >Well, what's the difference between these mathematical axioms and >religious axioms? Only one thing: verifiability. Oh, please. I thought you were more intelligent than that. That is exactly what I was talking about. If I drop a hammer and expect it it fall, that is a "leap of faith" of a completely different order than if I drop dead and expect god to be waiting for me when I'm through. I fail to see how your argument has any bearing on a discussion of the intrinsic differences between religious debates and other types of debates. =========== From: SHANDRA To: OPUS Subject: Humph! Date & Time: 05/14/91 01:03:36 Message Number 16800 Oh, God. Just what I need. "You stay right there," I tell the tailless 'morph. "The last thing I need right now is someone who's playing with a few cards missing handling a gun around me. Capische?" Lordy, that'd be just fuggin' great...this guy loose with a gun in the middle of a firefight. "Besides, I'm not sure that anything is going to happen. I just want to be ready if it does, you know?" My tail flicks up over my shoulder; I catch myself starting to chew on its tip again and coil it firmly around my waist. "I think I'm going to go outside and take a look around," I say to Tampa. "This little screwball must've come from some- where, and the more I think about this the more I bet there's a number o people who're probably really anxious to find him again. My guess is that he's AWOL from a merc outfit. Maybe the bunch that did that New Panama job, maybe not. Either way, if they want him back in a bad enough way we might find ourselves with a problem." I shrug, and walk toward the door. "And you," I say, pointing at the little morph, "STAY PUT!" I walk outside, tail lashing behind me. =========== From: ROBERT To: KYARA TOKYO Subject: Moving along Date & Time: 05/14/91 01:13:37 Message Number 16801 "Yes, I rather imagine that it has been," Robert says. "I expected you might quite like to have it back. Did you know that in ancient times the Japanese believed a samurai's sword contained the samurai's soul? I imagine your soul has quite a history, little ronin." He slides Kyara's robe off her shoulders as he continues, "I would like to visit Japan again. It's a pity that events have made that impossible." He continues to massage her back, then after a pause says "Perhaps you should lie down so I can continue this properly." =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: God's Daughter? Date & Time: 05/14/91 07:55:01 Message Number 16802 >Hmmm... how old is... "She"?? Why, Charles! I thought you knew that a gentleman never asks a woman her age. (hee hee!) //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/14/91 07:56:50 Message Number 16803 >One has the same problem with "useful" as with "correct" or "proven": >in fact, ANY concept which relates to absolutes... Huh? I thought "useful" would NOT relate to an absolute. There may be many "useful" theories which can explain an event: proving which one was "correct" would be nearly impossible. No absolutes necessary. >And Newton's laws were not "Proven wrong": they were just shown to be >"local" rather than "universal" in their validity (and they're USEFUL!) Something is "proven wrong" when a counterexample is found. At speeds approaching light, force does NOT equal mass * acceleration. But, very few people want to worry about the infinitessimal correction Einstein's laws give when we're dealing with, say, the speed a car is going. Newton's laws are a fantastic example of what I'm talking about. They provide an extremely accurate picture of the world, for some world views. BUT -- at really large speeds, or really small distances, it breaks down, horribly. (If Newton's laws were true, for example, every atom would be radiating light.) //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: TURTLE Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/14/91 08:10:29 Message Number 16804 >...isn't a "good cigarette" an oxymoron? Hey! If someone wants to commit suicide through nicotine, let them. If they think the feeling they get from smoking is worth the loss of their lungs, they have every right. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: TURTLE Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/14/91 08:13:09 Message Number 16805 >If "The Media" didn't tell you about corruption in your school board >or asbestos in your drinking water, who the hell would? Your local BBS friends! Oops, forgot. We're part of "The Media," too. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: TURTLE Subject: Buddhist Morals Date & Time: 05/14/91 08:15:01 Message Number 16806 >Yeah, the damn silly ones that don't have a whole lot of bearing on >the way one interacts with the real world ("Thou shalt have no other >god before me," etc.) The /useful/ commandments are pretty much >universal, simply because it's difficult to build a society without >them. Manifest Bullshit (tm) to two points: The second, and easiest, first: It's very easy to build a society without all the remaining six commandments. Capitalism as a system is based around breaking the tenth commandment: "Thou shalt not covet." Now, on to your first point: Again, complete and utter bullshit. How one views God has a great bearing on how one interacts with the real world, especially if you feel that doing well will bribe God into a better place in Paradise (or get you out of Torment.) If you feel that certain actions (dying in a jihad, going to a certain building every Sunday, not eating pork) will bribe God further, you will also do those things. Those first four commandments put the real power behind the last six. Very simple, no? //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: TURTLE Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/14/91 08:28:36 Message Number 16807 >That is exactly what I was talking about. If that's true, I apologize. It sounded to me, especially from the comment, "I've seen religious discussions that are put together in the same way as logical discussions, but there's always gonna be that leap of faith buried in there somewhere....try as you might to conceal it..." that you were saying that the difference between religious debates and other types of debates is that religious debates force a "leap of faith". My point, simply, was that all debates require a "leap of faith". //Dragonfly// =========== From: SAAVIK To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Perpet. Respons Date & Time: 05/14/91 12:52:05 Message Number 16811 Cook? Uhg... I hate cooking, I hate housework.. I should have been born rich... either that, or a man!!!! Um, don't get insulted guys... I'm not insinuating that you all never do any chores or anything.... (cough, cough) =========== From: SAAVIK To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/14/91 12:54:17 Message Number 16812 CD>Often the only ones who _know_ the truth won't tell it! OR they'll sell "their" side of the story to the media or the networks provided that it is reported or filmed from their point of view... pretty shabby I'd say... because some people believe whatever they see on TV.... and Enquiring Minds want to know..... blah. =========== From: SAAVIK To: RAT Subject: STRANGENESS Date & Time: 05/14/91 12:56:32 Message Number 16813 To skip a line... hit return like this then hit your space bar like I did one line 3.... then return. =========== From: SAAVIK To: OPUS Subject: Colors Date & Time: 05/14/91 12:57:36 Message Number 16814 Well, there are different variations of color blind... some people can see certain colors but the shades aren't clear for them... ei... orange and bright orange... ya know.... =========== From: SAAVIK To: OPUS Subject: Hmm.. Date & Time: 05/14/91 12:58:56 Message Number 16815 OP> BTW, did the above example make any sence at all? Well...... it looked too much like math class... so I turned my head as it scrolled down.... :) =========== From: SAAVIK To: CRYSTAL Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/14/91 13:05:21 Message Number 16816 CY>As usual you are once again correct. Naw, that's Turtle who's always right.. I tend to be wrong... but I try like hell to justify it.. Hehehe.... =========== From: SAAVIK To: TURTLE Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/14/91 13:06:58 Message Number 16817 T>Kissing a smoker is like licking an ashtray. Um, not to another smoker... I mean, who'd notice? =========== From: SAAVIK To: TURTLE Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/14/91 13:07:57 Message Number 16818 Ok, ok, ok,..... rephrasing... please stand by.............. Television influences people's views for the good as well as the bad. There are many people who believe whatever they see on TV... if a made for Television movie comes out and shows a story from only one point of view... many people just blindly believe that's how it happened Yeah, the "Media" does keep us informed by giving us the news, the facts ect... but I wasn't knocking the newscasters or the 6:00 newsteam.... I was talking really about the Current Affair types, the shows that show you the story from the angle THEY want... or the angle that the person who they paid for the story WANTS. There's a difference. =========== From: RUFUS To: TURTLE Subject: Whoops... Date & Time: 05/14/91 17:33:32 Message Number 16819 >...unless maybe you count George Will. Aaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiirrrrgggggghhhhhhhh! =========== From: RUFUS To: TURTLE Subject: Energized Date & Time: 05/14/91 17:34:26 Message Number 16820 >I keep finding guitar picks all over the apartment, and I don't even >own a guitar. Maybe one day someone will leave a guitar at your place. =========== From: RUFUS To: TURTLE Subject: Birth Control Date & Time: 05/14/91 17:35:38 Message Number 16821 >That's "come." Cum on, give Dragonfly a break. Aaarrgh...someone club me with a side of frozen beef. =========== From: RUFUS To: DEATH FENNEC Subject: More Problems. Date & Time: 05/14/91 17:41:54 Message Number 16822 If you both really love each other, then a seperation for two or three months should not jeopardize your relationship. You could also write or call frequently. =========== From: RUFUS To: TURTLE Subject: Pres. Quayle Date & Time: 05/14/91 17:46:30 Message Number 16823 >....President Q--yle? Bart said "Don't worry, the secret service has standing orders to shoot Quayle if Bush dies." =========== From: RUFUS To: DEATH FENNEC Subject: More Problems. Date & Time: 05/14/91 17:53:59 Message Number 16824 What is out in California that is not here, other than the west coast furry crowd. I'm sure you could get a fairly decent job here, and the cost of living here is less, and Lisa is here. Sure, it'd be fun to go to California for a little while, but I'd re-consider moving out there at this time. Sure, Sarasota is small, and you may want to escape it, but going to the other coast is a bit of an extreme move (if you plan on making it permanent, which from you messahesges it sounds like). =========== From: RUFUS To: TURTLE Subject: Energized Date & Time: 05/14/91 17:58:27 Message Number 16825 Have you found that rhino in your attic yet? =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: SAAVIK Subject: Perpet. Respons Date & Time: 05/14/91 18:33:32 Message Number 16826 >Cook? Uhg... I hate cooking... I should have been born... a man! Hate ta tell ya this, but men cook, too. Remind me NEVER to try cooking eggplant parmesean again! (While the eggplant parts are frying, ya gotta make sure there's enough breadcrumbs, and cut up the mushrooms at the same time.... and make sure the tomato sauce is coming along nicely. Sheesh!) //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: SAAVIK Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/14/91 18:36:36 Message Number 16827 >...because some people believe whatever they see on TV... and Enquiring > Minds want to know... But... it's in print! It must be true, right? They wouldn't print it if it weren't true, right? Personally, I find most tabloids boring. I could care less about John Candy's sex life. Except, of course, the Weekly World News; I adore the headlines. "Bush Reveals Bigfoot Really Running Country." "Space Aliens Steal Johnny's Homework." "Granny Eats All Her Grandchildren." //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: SAAVIK Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/14/91 18:42:09 Message Number 16828 >Television influences people's views for the good as well as the bad. I've heard of a way to really learn how much information comes from the different forms of the media. Try this experiment the next three weeks: The first week, get all of your news about the world from the T.V. (Any station, any channel) and none from any other source. The next, get all your news from the radio. The final week, just get your news from the newspaper. At the end of those three weeks, ask yourself: Where did I get the most information? //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: RUFUS Subject: Energized Date & Time: 05/14/91 18:45:09 Message Number 16829 >Maybe one day someone will leave a guitar at your place. Naaah. That's not how it works. After the guitar picks, strings starts appearing from mid-air. Then the guitar body, with no finger- board. Then all the other things necessary, except the fingerboard. When Turtle tries to go out and buy a fingerboard, he'll discover that there are none for sale. //Dragonfly// =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: TURTLE Subject: Pres. Quayle Date & Time: 05/14/91 21:38:23 Message Number 16830 >>drop in more often. Drop in is about it. My family life is about as stable as the government of the USSR. We have found ourselves heading in two different directions...literally. Anyway, I'm tired of grieving so I be back, and it feels pretty good. How you been doing? Found that mega-buck job yet???? ..........me neither. hehe =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: KNIGHT OWL Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/14/91 21:40:55 Message Number 16831 I still love the sticker: God is coming....and boy is She pissed!!! Did that on a sign for our department secretary and the director (former director that is...hehe) had her take it down. Said it wasn't in good taste. That was right before he called her in his office to hear him fart 'cause he didn't want to 'waste it'. A real class act....PTUEEWW!! SnakeByte . . =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Pres. Quayle Date & Time: 05/14/91 21:43:29 Message Number 16832 >what does this red button do? I'm worried about what controls the 'finger' that pushes that 'red button'.....very little. Can you see him at the helm for something like Desert Storm......AAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! sssssssssssssssshivers.......SnakeByte . . =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/14/91 21:46:59 Message Number 16833 >False Prophet of the Aardvark.... Ahhhhhhhhhh, reminds me of the time my pet weasel told me to get closer to God by climbing a tree, cutting off the soles of my shoes and learning to play the flute. Hasn't worked yet but I keep trying. SnakeByte . . =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Relationships Date & Time: 05/14/91 21:49:09 Message Number 16834 Love????? Love isn't what makes the world go 'round. Love is what makes the trip worthwhile. I'm one to talk....geeeze. You're asking the wrong person about this with my better half, being the better whole somewhere else. ssssssssssSnakeByte . . =========== From: TURTLE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/15/91 01:12:10 Message Number 16835 >I thought...you were saying that the difference between religious >debates and other types of debates is that religious debates force a >"leap of faith." No, I was saying that religious debates contain or involve a leap of faith that is manifestly different from the "faith" involved in a statement like "If I drop a hammer it'll fall." My dictionary defines "faith" as "Faith, n. Belief that is not based on proof." Semantic quibbling, hairsplitting, and existentialist bullshit aside, I think it's accurate to say the differnce between a logical argument and a religious argument is that the latter will always involve some sort of leap of faith that is inherently unprovable and therefore not subject to rational analysis. Religious discussions can borrow the tools and techniques of logic, but they are not logical. =========== From: TURTLE To: SAAVIK Subject: Perpet. Respons Date & Time: 05/15/91 01:16:29 Message Number 16836 >I should have been born rich... either that, or a man! [Various >sexist remarks omitted] Ahem! Speaking in behalf of all the members of my sex, since everyone knows we're all in a massive, secret conspiracy together, I take exception to that post... =========== From: TURTLE To: SAAVIK Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/15/91 01:19:06 Message Number 16837 T>Kissing a smoker is like licking an ashtray. S>Um, not to another smoker... Yeah...if you smoke I guess you do kind of lose the ability to taste things, don't you? Heh heh. =========== From: TURTLE To: SAAVIK Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/15/91 01:25:45 Message Number 16838 >...I wasn't knocking the newscasters od the 6:00 newsteam... Yes, you were. You were knocking "The Media." The Media is Lewis Grizzard, and the Sarasota Herald-Tribune's reporting team, and the six o'clock newscaster, and your local movie reviewer, and everyone else involved in any way with information media. If some poor shmuck chooses to believe everything he sees on "A Current Affair" or reads in "The National Enquirer," well, that's not "The media"'s fault, it's the fault of the damn fool who swallows it all in the first place. Blaming anyhting on "The Media" or lamenting their impact on "the rest of society" is just plain silly. =========== From: TURTLE To: RUFUS Subject: Energized Date & Time: 05/15/91 01:28:59 Message Number 16839 >Maybe one day someone will leave a guitar at your place. Yeah, and it'll go in the attic with all the other inexplicable stuff I can't identify... =========== From: TURTLE To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Pres. Quayle Date & Time: 05/15/91 01:31:36 Message Number 16840 >How you been doing? Could be better, could be worse. I'm alive; I suppose that's gotta count for something. >Found that mega-buck job yet???? No, but I've been considering a career move...I could deal drugs, or pimp, or sell securities... So what's been going on in your life, anyway? =========== From: TURTLE To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/15/91 01:34:29 Message Number 16841 >...climbing a tree, cutting off the soles of my shoes and learning to >play the flute. Groovy! Can I try too? =========== From: TURTLE To: ALL Subject: Now available.. Date & Time: 05/15/91 02:14:59 Message Number 16842 ...in the download directory, DEN1.TXT-DEN4.TXT. Four files containing the first posts from the storyboard. Download 'em. Check 'em out. Good stuff. =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Pres. Quayle Date & Time: 05/15/91 07:05:37 Message Number 16843 >I'm worried about what controls the 'finger' that pushes that 'red >button....very little. I still don't rest well, knowing Georgie is in the White House. He's still worried that he's perceived as a wimp, so he invades two countries. He's right: he's no longer perceived as a wimp. Just a bully. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/15/91 07:08:06 Message Number 16844 >My pet weasel told me to get closer to God by climbing a tree, cutting >off the soles of my shoes and learning to play the flute. Hasn't >worked yet but I keep trying. It hasn't worked yet? Hmmm.... what tunes are you playing on the flute? And did you bring your weasel along for the experience? The experience works much better if you bring an Aardvark along, but it should give you a sampling of God in Her glory. //Dragonfly// =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: TURTLE Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/15/91 07:11:02 Message Number 16845 >Semantic quibbling, hairsplitting, and existentialist bullshit aside, >I think it's accurate to say the differnce between a logical argument >and a religious argument ios that the latter will always involve some >sort of leap of faith that is inherently unprovable and therefore not >subject to rational analysis. Turtle, do you accept mathematics as rational? Do you consider math to be subject to 'rational analysis'? ALL mathematics -- even arithmetic -- depends on "leaps of faith that are inherently unprovable." They're termed axioms, and frequently mathematicians debate whether axioms should or shouldn't be included. (Different schools of thought use different axioms... even down to logic!) My other argument, that logic is NOT based on the validity of the presuppositions, but is just a 'mechanism' for creating new statements from old, has been said before. Have you ever talked with a true solipsist, or someone who pretended to be one? You can't disprove his/her idea that the world is imaginary because they won't admit any of your assumptions. After you've talked with someone like that, you realize that nearly EVERYTHING you say depends on 'unprovable assumptions' -- even just a shared world-view. //Dragonfly// =========== From: RUFUS To: SAAVIK Subject: 100 years old Date & Time: 05/15/91 16:17:53 Message Number 16846 Some student at MIT (I think it was MIT) put a Twinkie in a time capsule. It'll still be fresh, no doubt. =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/16/91 00:25:15 Message Number 16847 I've seen that sticker before. Long ago, someone posted this in the homor echo: God died for your sins... make it worthwhile. I found it to be in poor taste. Glad to see ya back. L8R! Knight Owl =========== From: DRAGONFLY To: ALL Subject: Random chatter Date & Time: 05/16/91 22:20:23 Message Number 16849 Okay, science fiction fans... What do y'all think computers will be like in twenty years? What do y'all think further miniaturization will do for them? And what new uses for computers can you think of? //Dragonfly// =========== From: MAXIMILION To: RUFUS Subject: Pres. Quayle Date & Time: 05/17/91 01:25:51 Message Number 16850 Well, the problem with that is that good ol' Danny boy is as qualified for the job as anyone else in this country...As it says in the Constitution, the only requirements for becoming president are that you must be at least 35 years old and a natural born US. Citizen. He is "Qualified" to run the country under those two and only those two requirements. -Pete =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: TURTLE Subject: Pres. Quayle Date & Time: 05/17/91 10:08:03 Message Number 16851 >>what's been going on in your life, anyway? Welllllll, seems as if my better half feels as if she'd be a better half somewhere else. We've been through some pretty stiff battles and it appears that we may both loose. We're just kind of occupying space a little further apart then we used to. Shouldn't change the world but it has sure upset my 'balance'..... =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: TURTLE Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/17/91 10:11:50 Message Number 16852 >>>>learn to play the flute..... Hate to admitt it but that line actually came from an album from Fireside Theatre called "How can you be in two places at once when you're not really anyplace at all" or maybe "Don't crush that dwarf, hand me the pliers". Can't remember which one. "How do I get to the airport?" "You can't get there from here."............ hehe =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Pres. Quayle Date & Time: 05/17/91 10:14:56 Message Number 16853 >>>just a bully... I believe that the 'bullies' of the world are actually the worst 'wimps' as well. Anyone who thinks that pushing other people/ countries around makes the rest of us hold them in high regard is not facing reality. Too bad you can't physically pound someone with your brain, there would be some BIG changes in this world. .......Where IS my pocket protector anyway???? hehe =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/17/91 10:18:21 Message Number 16854 >>>what tunes.... Well I start in with some Wayne Newton and slowly evolve into some Stairway to Heaven while softly sing the theme to Gilligan's Island in pig latin.....Why? Isn't that what I'm supposed to be playing????? Don't tell me all the episodes with Maryann and the Skipper were for nothing......geeeeeze =========== From: SNAKEBYTE To: KNIGHT OWL Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/17/91 10:21:40 Message Number 16855 I still love the FarSide that has a game show with God as the challenger and the host is saying "That's right, another 100 points for God and our challenger has yet to score" and God's score is like 120,500 or something like that. That Gary Larson....what a scream. WYSIWYG...unfortunately =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: God's Daughter? Date & Time: 05/18/91 09:46:29 Message Number 16856 Hahahaha....especially GOD! =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: DRAGONFLY Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/18/91 09:47:17 Message Number 16857 No, "proven wrong" is not when a counterexample is found. Newton's laws ARE correct (which is why they're still taught!) in local timespace. There's nothing "wrong" with them in that context: Relativity just jumped to another context. It's much like saying the temperature here is cool (I'm inside), while someone else says "I just saw the weather report: the temperature is 93!") Re "useful", I know you attempted to avoid absolutes, but useful as a concept is still "absolute", in the sense that it is interpreted to mean "absolutely of use"....in fact, "useful" is a poor choice of concepts re theories, because it has the same problems as you find in Newton's Laws: they are true, but only for particular contexts. Same with "useful". And worse, "useful" is a subjective term (tho most people don't use it that way). What is useful to one person (or one theorist) is NOT useful to another. A theory does not have inherent usefulness: people may attempt to find use for one, and in certain circumstances may be useful (but in others may be destructive!)... ---Hmmm....am I being wordy and obfuscative?? I'm jes' waking up---- =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: SAAVIK Subject: Cooking/housewk Date & Time: 05/18/91 09:56:23 Message Number 16858 Hm, don't like cooking or housework: what dO you like to do to spend the rest of your years??? =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: SAAVIK Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/18/91 09:57:17 Message Number 16859 Ahh, don't be too cynical, now! To me, "media", tho i guess it must include "all" media, is most typically network media/news. I have a feeling that (relatively speaking), it's really not so bad... And what could take its place?? =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: SAAVIK Subject: Media Date & Time: 05/18/91 10:00:01 Message Number 16860 Ahhhh....re last message, "Nevverr Mind"... :) =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Relationships Date & Time: 05/18/91 10:02:30 Message Number 16861 I don't think I'm asking the wrong person about love: your message touches on it pretty well (as far as I can see)....I have a suspicion that love is better experienced than talked about, anyway. :) =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: ALL Subject: Humble Request Date & Time: 05/18/91 10:04:41 Message Number 16862 For a written work, I need to find out the following: any assistance would be greatly appreciated: 1 - About how many Earth years does it take for the galaxy to revolve one time on its axis? (I read it years ago, but can't find it now) 2 - I need to know a couple of "common" Gaelic names (of people): something equivalent to our "John Smith" or "James Jones" Thanks for your consideration (and possible answers!) :) -chas. =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: TURTLE Subject: picnick Date & Time: 05/18/91 10:07:35 Message Number 16863 Yo, I'd like to have the next picnick soon (about 3 weeks): any par- ticular Saturday you think would be a good choice? Please ask around, and let me know: thanks!! =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/18/91 10:33:19 Message Number 16864 So you're aFar Side fan too, eh? I really enjoy that comic. I wonder how Gary Larson things up some of that syuff. t^ (oops!) L8R! Knight Owl =========== From: RAT To: KNIGHT OWL Subject: skipping lines Date & Time: 05/18/91 12:07:30 Message Number 16867 Are you trying to say that I just wrote a message trying to skip lines and using the delete key and that didn't work? Damn. =========== From: RAT To: SAAVIK Subject: spelling Date & Time: 05/18/91 12:09:23 Message Number 16868 s> To skip a line... hit return like this then hit your space bar like I did one line 3.... then return. Oh no! What ever happened to the Saavik Speller? I think you meant on line 3. You better replace the batteries in your spell checker! =========== From: RAT To: RAT Subject: skipping lines Date & Time: 05/18/91 12:13:16 Message Number 16869 Hey rat! Are you having fun talking to yourself? Yeah, I really am. Did you just delete that stupid message you wrote and presses delete a lot? Of coarse! This is getting really boring so I'm going to go. Ok. Bye . Bye. =========== From: RAT To: RAT Subject: skipping lines Date & Time: 05/18/91 12:15:43 Message Number 16870 I think that talking to yourself is kinda stupid. And your loosing friends really fast! I don't want to be your friend anymore. Jerk. =========== From: RAT To: ALL Subject: hi Date & Time: 05/18/91 12:17:24 Message Number 16871 Hey everone! My dog, Bear, wants to say hi! Here he is! t655555e5$">RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRED/ Gf/./}ew`\ dsxl;/sx ./fgcl; =========== From: MAXIMILION To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Humble Request Date & Time: 05/18/91 14:30:25 Message Number 16872 We Well, it depends where in the galaxy you are... Because the outer sections of the galaxy revlove slower than the inner section, it is different. Well, for the earth, it takes about 250 million years for one revolution. Did I get too technical? Nah..I coulda said stuff like Differential Rotation and Density Wave Theory... -Pete =========== From: THE GRUNT To: SAAVIK Subject: Star Trek Quote Date & Time: 05/18/91 21:19:35 Message Number 16873 That's "One Damn Minute Admiral." =========== From: JONBOY To: ALL Subject: back... Date & Time: 05/18/91 22:28:51 Message Number 16874 Jeez... first I get super-busy and then when I try to log on for one little call about a week ago I find out my modem has kaput machen Oh well - I wuz gonna get a new 9600 but decided to operate on that I had first. Hah! I beat the sucker into submission and is functioning again! Brutality wins again! Steve - I ain't been able to catch you clowns in two weeks can is probably the pits too!) I lost yer phone number so I can't call e whole friggin world is coming apart at the seams and and and ARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH --- AAIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!! Ahhh primal scream therapy - such good stuff. Anyway I'm back and I'll have to get back into the swing here. =========== From: JONBOY To: ALL Subject: sale stuff Date & Time: 05/18/91 22:35:54 Message Number 16875 I'm considering selling the following items. Apple II+ computer with: Videx UltraTerm video card (the ultimate) 128K RAM card, printer card, Super Serial card 2 RANA 40 track drives, Keytronics keyboard PCPI CP/M card with 64K RAM Prometheus internal 1200 modem Joystick, paddles, NMI card for software protection etc etc. > 400 disks of software. 12 Mhz XT clone with 20 meg drive, CGA card. Osborne 1 computer with software & manuals. Works! Software & manuals for Osborne Executive computer. Altair 8080b computer - One of the first personal computers! In pieces - but it's all there plus some expansion cards. Vectrex vector graphics arcdae game with many cartridges. This was unique in that it has its' own monitor & sound system. Make offer on all or part of this stuff. Will consider trades like MIDI hardware or software (esp for IBM) or other musical stuff. You can reach me at 355-9761 extension 2058. leave a message if I don't happen to be there. Jon Smith =========== From: TURTLE To: DRAGONFLY Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/18/91 23:17:41 Message Number 16876 Mathmatical axioms do not share any significant relationship to religious faith because even though no sufficiently complex mathmatical system is entirely provable, the system as a whole (a) is self- consistent and (b) the axioms have consequences which are observable and provable. Religious models can sometimes approach condition (a) but not condition (b). This is the sort of semantic hairsplitting I was talking about: no matter how you slice it, there is still a quantifiable, qualitative difference between a leap of fath of a religious nature and a 'leap of faith' that is not religious. Belief in God is fundamentally a leap of faith that by its nature cannot be proven or disproven in any way whatsoever. This belief is quite different in kind from acceptance of a mathematic axiom. Your second point falls into the 'existentialist bullshit' category. Sure, you can argue that nothing outside yourself exists until Hell freezes over, but it doesn't get you anywhere; if your 'imaginary' next- door neighbor throws an 'imaginary' brick at your 'imaginary' head with sufficient velocity, I guarantee you'll perceive 'imaginary' pain. What's more, the phenomenon is repeatable (if he does it again you'll still percieve the same imaginary pain) and verifiable (all your imaginary neighbors will agree that they are all perceiving you lying in a pool of your own blood). Therefore, all such arguments are irrele- vant; the universe behaves as though it were /not/ imaginary, so believing that it is is pointless. =========== From: TURTLE To: KNIGHT OWL Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/18/91 23:27:24 Message Number 16877 >God died for your sins... make it worthwhile. The version of that I've heard is "God died for our sins. Dare we there- fore make His sacrifice meaningless by not committing them?" My favorite bumper sticker along those lines was created by a friend of mine some time back, though: "God had /better/ exist; we pay Him enough to!" =========== From: TURTLE To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: Pres. Quayle Date & Time: 05/18/91 23:30:00 Message Number 16878 >Too bad you can't physically pound someone with your brain... Yeah, that'd be nice. It's too soft and squishy, though. *sigh* =========== From: TURTLE To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Humble Request Date & Time: 05/18/91 23:32:33 Message Number 16879 >...I need to find out the following: ... That's weird. Why? (I'm embarassed to admit, I just realized I don't have a single book anywhere in this apartment that'll answer either question...awwqk!) =========== From: TURTLE To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: picnick Date & Time: 05/18/91 23:39:08 Message Number 16880 Any Saturday is fine with me; I'll see what's groovy (to coin a phrase) with other people is well. It's highly unlikely that the Tampa contingent will be down for a while yet, though... =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: back... Date & Time: 05/18/91 23:41:53 Message Number 16881 >ARRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! [Etc] So, how the hell are you? :) =========== From: TURTLE To: JONBOY Subject: sale stuff Date & Time: 05/18/91 23:43:00 Message Number 16882 You're selling an /Altair/?? You gotta be shittin' me!! I've been into computers almost from the start and I ain't even /seen/ one of them in real life...I thought I was running a museum over here! Yikes... =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: RAT Subject: skipping lines Date & Time: 05/19/91 06:58:57 Message Number 16884 Yes. One more time... When you get to the next line, hit the SPACE bar, then RETURN. like this OK? L8R! Knight Owl =========== From: KNIGHT OWL To: TURTLE Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/19/91 07:04:42 Message Number 16885 T>.... 'God had /better/ exist; we pay him enough to!' Hehehehehe........ =========== From: SAAVIK To: RUFUS Subject: Birth Control Date & Time: 05/19/91 09:25:15 Message Number 16886 RF>....someone club me with a side of frozen beef. Hehe, nice to "meat" you, Rufus.... =========== From: SAAVIK To: RUFUS Subject: Pres. Quayle Date & Time: 05/19/91 09:26:54 Message Number 16887 RF> "Don't worry, the secret service has standing orders to shoot Quayle if Bush dies." A bullet in the bird is worth two in the Bush????? *Oh, Gawd* Did I really say that????? They'd better take a good look at the third in line before they go Quayle hunting.... =========== From: SAAVIK To: DRAGONFLY Subject: Perpet. Respons Date & Time: 05/19/91 09:31:09 Message Number 16888 DF> Hate ta tell ya this, but men cook, too. Ok, I'll settle for being rich then.... I'd only have to cook if I want to... =========== From: SAAVIK To: DRAGONFLY Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/19/91 09:32:43 Message Number 16889 I love reading the highlights on the front of the Tabloids..... ..... how else on ya gonna keep up with where Elvis really is now... UH, let's see, at last count, he was flipping hamburgers in some small town at a Burger King and he planned to sing at the Super Bowl.... .... hmmm, I guess he stepped aside for Whitney Houston though.. You  KNOW what a gentleman he is... =========== From: SAAVIK To: DRAGONFLY Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/19/91 09:35:37 Message Number 16890 DF>(suggesting listening to the TV, the Radio, and the Newspaper and comparing) Well, the radio would lose big time... the news you get there is sketchy at best.... CNN tends to get stuck on a continuing subject and pretty much fast forward through anything else... I'd have to say it would be the newspaper...... but I don't like getting that damned ink all over my hands...(that was a joke).. I actually prefer CNN but I think the Newspaper probably would tell you more "in depth". =========== From: SAAVIK To: TURTLE Subject: Perpet. Respons Date & Time: 05/19/91 09:43:18 Message Number 16891 Yes, Yes, Yes.... I know my comment about men NOT cooking was sexist. It was meant to be sexist..... I was merely taking a "female" hostility out on that message... that's why I said, No offence...... You are all hereby excluded from /that/ post. =========== From: SAAVIK To: TURTLE Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/19/91 09:45:01 Message Number 16892 T>...if you smoke I guess you do kind of lose the ability to taste things.... =========== From: SAAVIK To: TURTLE Subject: breaking habits Date & Time: 05/19/91 09:45:40 Message Number 16893 Continuation of that last message, I hit save by error.... Actually, having smoked On and Off for several years... I really didn't notice any difference... I can still taste quite well... but I have seen smokers who pour salt and pepper on everything they eat to enhance the taste.... but I'm not one of them. =========== From: SAAVIK To: TURTLE Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/19/91 09:47:58 Message Number 16894 T> You were knocking "The Media" Well, Exxxxcuuuuuuuuse me!!!!!! I wasn't, really I wasn't.... I may have said Media but I didn't use the word correctly.... I didn't mean The News people (the reputable news people) Honest Honest.... =========== From: SAAVIK To: RUFUS Subject: 100 years old Date & Time: 05/19/91 09:52:08 Message Number 16895 I had a box of Twinkies here for my kids once.... but the ants got into them, so I tried to feed them to the dogs.... they took one sniff and backed away like it was poison...... hmmm, maybe they read the page long ingrediant label....... =========== From: SAAVIK To: SNAKEBYTE Subject: hung up on GOD? Date & Time: 05/19/91 09:57:52 Message Number 16896 SB> ....I start in with some Wayne Newton and slowly evolve into some Stairway to Heaven while softly sing the theme to Gilliigan's Island in pig latin.... Ah.... You left out a song, that's all... you forgot the theme to the Brady Bunch..... right between Stairway and Gilligan.... if you skip that one..... you're wasting your time. =========== From: SAAVIK To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: Cooking/housewk Date & Time: 05/19/91 10:00:59 Message Number 16897 CD> Hm, don't like cooking or housework: What dO you like to do to spend the rest of your years??? I work for a living.... all day... then I come home and usually end up calling work on my modem and doing it some more... plus I have two kids and a messy husband..... and in my spare time (Hah!) I like to BBS and I raise Cockatiels..... (pant pant pant) =========== From: SAAVIK To: CHARLES DITTELL Subject: beliefs Date & Time: 05/19/91 10:03:25 Message Number 16898 I didn't mean the media as in the news... I used the word in the wrong context.... Will I ever live this down? =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: MAXIMILION Subject: Humble Request Date & Time: 05/19/91 12:14:58 Message Number 16899 Many thanks! That's just what I needed! (Re questions, yes, the the outer portions revolve more slowly - current theories - well, some of them - attribute most of that to "dark matter") Thanks again - chas. =========== From: CHARLES DITTELL To: TURTLE Subject: relig & logic?? Date & Time: 05/19/91 12:18:52 Message Number 16900 Much truth here: tho I'm not sure that belief in God _by it's very nature_ is unprovable. There could be a scenario where God _proves_ him/her-self -- maybe on Channel 4 (Public Access Channel)..:) ===========