Apollo BBS Archive - September 1990

Apollo BBS Archive - September 5, 1990

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Message: 6674
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Answer!
Subject: Jeff/4-wheel
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 23:42:19

Just mud.
   See You Later,
      Dean H.

Message: 6675
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Idea for thought
Subject: Jeff/Phenomenalism?
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 23:52:17

  It seems to me that to infer that our statements regarding sensory data
are wrong is to infer some systematic interferance with our efforts to
discover the truth. I find that harder to swallow than the relatively
straight forward idea that sensory data, and statements thereof, can be
judged on their own merits.
  I do have some skepticism about modern physics, but I am not sure if that
is due to the effects you described, or my own failure to grasp something. I
suppose that could be the whole foundation that much of it rests on, the
fact that no outsider can positively identify it as baloney.
   See You Later,
      Dean H.

$tatus Club Bulletin Board command:EC

You chose Chit-Chat

Subject:Physics

Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
 1:If you learn everything about physics from a book then you have missed what 
 2:has yet not been discovered.  Sometimes it is better to start out anew and 
 3:from the looks of it, the both of you, Dean and Jeff have grasped the 
 4:understanding of what time really is.
 5:
 6:Keep going.
 7:end

Edit command:S

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$tatus Club Bulletin Board command:R6676

Message: 6676
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Physics
Date: 09/06/90  Time: 01:35:00

If you learn everything about physics from a book then you have missed what
has yet not been discovered.  Sometimes it is better to start out anew and
from the looks of it, the both of you, Dean and Jeff have grasped the
understanding of what time really is.

Keep going.

$tatus Club Bulletin Board command:JN

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X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:$C

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Message: 4194
Author: $ Sandi Marlin
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: freckles
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 01:38:38

Speaking strictly for myself, I hate my freckles because they make me look
even younger and unsophisticated than I really am. Without makeup, I look
like a fifteen-year-old farm girl from Kansas or something, and that's not
quite the image I want to project for myself...

Message: 4195
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Up Yours
Subject: Beau Dog
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 03:26:29

That was a baaaaaah-d joke.

Message: 4196
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer !
Subject: Roger/taunts
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 03:29:48

Of course it is game playing.  Who are you, Mr. Maturity (or perhaps I
should say Modern Maturity)?  I don't think you are in any position to throw
stones, given the fact that you have been regaling us for the past three
days with stories of your masterbation fantasies regarding certain "baby
faced" pouting actresses.

Message: 4197
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer !
Subject: Roger/learned
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 03:38:01

Yes.  I learned that the best way to shut up some snotty fool is to make him
eat his words.  In light of your braggadocio regarding your vast formal math
experience and your peerless memory, and consequently, your condescending
remarks about my lack of formal education, I found your ignorance of
fundamental concepts (i.e. limits) and your inability to distinguish between
geometric concepts and physical entities, rather incongruous (and somewhat
amusing).

Message: 4198
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer !
Subject: Roger/big brown eyes
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 03:40:46

Well, perhaps a cow or a springer-spaniel might be more to your liking; they
have even bigger brown eyes.

Message: 4199
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: Melissa on Jeff
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 07:14:55

Re: putting money together to get him an enflatable doll ----
hahahahahahhahahahhahahahhahahhahaha. Good one girl! -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 4200
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: Doggy
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 07:17:18

Hahahahahahahahahahaha - iflatable sheep???!!! - hahahahahahha./ Boyee are
all of you comedians today or what?
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahaah
 
                               -=*) ANN (*=-
How about an inflatable female Godzilla? Oh lord, this list could be long.
Jeff - I think you started something.

Message: 4201
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: Rod on Jett
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 07:18:35

"You'd sure like to 'plank her'????" Hahahahahahahahahahah. Youse guys and
gals got me in stitches today! -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 4202
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: freckles
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 12:36:28

but it is one that millions of 40+ year-olders spend billions of dollars
to obtain. If you've got it, flaunt it !!!

Message: 4203
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Answer !
Subject: jeff/game playing
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 12:37:37

too bad. you should go to school and learn something.

Message: 4204
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: jeff/learning
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 12:39:12

I repeat. Go to school.                            

Message: 4205
Author: $ Sandi Marlin
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: roger/freckles
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 20:36:51

Yeah, but no one takes me seriously, I look like a little kid if I don't
have my hair right or makeup on. I suppose when I'm 35 and still getting
carded, it'll be amusing but now it's not so fun...

Message: 4206
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Re-BuTTal
Subject: Roger
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 20:56:48

"Go to school and learn something."
 
Yes, a classical attempt to intimidate your opponent into silence when your
arguments relevant to the issues are flawed.
First, I fail to understand what this has to do with the subject of sexual
badinage, mature or otherwise.
Second, it is clear from our discussions that school is neither a necessary
nor sufficient condition for learning.

Message: 4207
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Answer !
Subject: Shezz!
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 23:05:17

Gone to two days and this is the board with the most messages!  
Help!

X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:EC

You chose Cosmos-Chatter

Subject:Physics/school

Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
 1:If Einstein had believed everything taught him then perhaps he wouldn't have
 2:went out of textbook range.  Or maybe his wife wouldn't have.
 3:
 4:The only thing I've fuck an inflatable sheep with is an inflatable dick.
 5:Smoke that.
 6:end

Edit command:S

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X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:R4208

Message: 4208
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: Physics/school
Date: 09/06/90  Time: 01:39:31

If Einstein had believed everything taught him then perhaps he wouldn't have
went out of textbook range.  Or maybe his wife wouldn't have.

The only thing I've fuck an inflatable sheep with is an inflatable dick.
Smoke that.

X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:JN

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*=* End of the Universe Bulletin Board entered *=*

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Message: 1468
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Jeff
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 23:58:37

  I was a teenage Plasmatic.
   See You Later,
      Dean H.
*(

End of the Universe Bulletin Board command:EC

You chose Chit-Chat

Subject:Dean/Jeff

Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
 1:I was a teenage mutant.
 2:end

Edit command:S

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The message is 1469

End of the Universe Bulletin Board command:R1469

Message: 1469
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Dean/Jeff
Date: 09/06/90  Time: 01:40:27

I was a teenage mutant.

End of the Universe Bulletin Board command:JN

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Message: 1929
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Answer!
Subject: Last
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 23:03:37

I just think there are people too vunerable to handle critism that let
themselves wide open to it.

Late Night Bulletin Board command:JN

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Message: 69192
Author: Carl Fulves
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: R. Williams/WW II
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 01:19:19

We could have bombed the railroad lines leading to the camps.  We didn't. 
We could have bombed the camps themselves.  We didn't.  To say that it would
have killed people is adding nothing.  They were killed anyway, as were the
ones who followed; and these numbered far more than those who would have
been killed by bombing raids.  Besides, what kind of quality of life did
those people have anyway?  You are always saying how one should not be
afraid of death, and how you would rather die than live in misery.  Is this
a serious philosophy, or merely cheap rhetoric?  To say that they would have
built more camps is not to state a fact, merely a speculation.  Besides, we
bombed their industries; would you argue that this was wrong simply because
they might build more?

Message: 69193
Author: $ Sandi Marlin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rod/500 years
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 01:34:32

No, I don't think it'd be right but I suspect 500 years ago there would've
been no one to help out small countries. That's probably why there weren't
many small countries in those days, because the big countries were doubly
invincible in comparison.

Message: 69194
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Question?
Subject: Peter/breakdown
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 03:18:36

Public & Free Bulletin Board command:EC

You chose Chit Chat

Subject:Sandy

Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
 1:Wasn't five hundred years ago about the time the white man invaded the 
 2:America's?
 3:
 4:Wasn't a hundred or less years ago about the time the U.S. invaded Mexico 
 5:(Arizona/California and took by force the land you now are on?
 6:
 7:Wasn't several months ago the time when the U.S. invaded Panama in order to 
 8:keep the real estate in the hands of a suitable person?  Granada?  Cuba?  
 9:
10:It is a way of life that has been played ever since animal first appeared on
11:this planet, however unfortunate.
12:
13:The points you make are logical in that if the U.S just laid down all of its
14:arms, bombs and planes included then it wouldn't be two weeks before a 
15:military nation came knocking at our door.  War and conquest is a fact of 
16:life.
17:
18:It is not the intelligent animal who pursues peace with all but that day may
19:be a while in coming.
20:
21:end

Edit command:D18

Edit command:D18

Edit command:L1

 1:Wasn't five hundred years ago about the time the white man invaded the
 2:America's?
 3:
 4:Wasn't a hundred or less years ago about the time the U.S. invaded Mexico
 5:(Arizona/California and took by force the land you now are on?
 6:
 7:Wasn't several months ago the time when the U.S. invaded Panama in order to
 8:keep the real estate in the hands of a suitable person?  Granada?  Cuba? 
 9:
10:It is a way of life that has been played ever since animal first appeared on
11:this planet, however unfortunate.
12:
13:The points you make are logical in that if the U.S just laid down all of its
14:arms, bombs and planes included then it wouldn't be two weeks before a
15:military nation came knocking at our door.  War and conquest is a fact of
16:life.
17:
18:

Edit command:E15

15:military nation came knocking at our door.  War and conquest is a fact of
Find text:is a
Replace text:are a

15:military nation came knocking at our door.  War and conquest are a fact of
Find text:

Edit command:L1

 1:Wasn't five hundred years ago about the time the white man invaded the
 2:America's?
 3:
 4:Wasn't a hundred or less years ago about the time the U.S. invaded Mexico
 5:(Arizona/California and took by force the land you now are on?
 6:
 7:Wasn't several months ago the time when the U.S. invaded Panama in order to
 8:keep the real estate in the hands of a suitable person?  Granada?  Cuba? 
 9:
10:It is a way of life that has been played ever since animal first appeared on
11:this planet, however unfortunate.
12:
13:The points you make are logical in that if the U.S just laid down all of its
14:arms, bombs and planes included then it wouldn't be two weeks before a
15:military nation came knocking at our door.  War and conquest are a fact of
16:life.
17:
18:

Edit command:E5

 5:(Arizona/California and took by force the land you now are on?
Find text:California
Replace text:California)

 5:(Arizona/California) and took by force the land you now are on?
Find text:

Edit command:S

Saving message...
The message is 69225

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Message: 69194
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Question?
Subject: Peter/breakdown
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 03:18:36

Are we to assume then that neither the homosexual nor the quadraplegic was a
white male?  I believe that Robert Mapelthorpe was homosexual AND a white
male.
 
Assuming that none of the other categories overlap, we see that Helms has
publically accused only six people of creating obscene art.  One would
expect that, if, as you say, his charges of obscenity were minority
oriented, he should accuse more than six people out of the tens of thousands
of artists supported by the NEA, of obscenity.  But according to your own
chart, he has only made this accusation against a single homosexual out of
all of the other NEA supported homosexual artists.  He has only made this
accusation against a single hispanic...
And what of black people?  Are we to infer from their absence on your list
that Mr. Helms' alleged prejudices against minorities do not extend to
blacks?  Surely, if he were motivated by prejudice against minorities, he
could, given his status as a good old boy of the south, have concocted some
obscenity charges against blacks?
 
As for a comparison of NEA fundings vs. S&L bailouts, two wrongs do not make
a right.

Message: 69195
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Question?
Subject: RADAR
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 03:24:45

As I understand it, radar works by shooting radar waves, which travel with
the speed of light, timing the interval between their transmission and their
return (via bouncing off of an object), and dividing the product of this
interval and the speed of light by two to get the distance of the object. 
But if the object were a short distance away, say, fifty feet, given that
the speed of light is some 186,000 miles per second, the timed interval
would be in the neighborhood of 102 billionths of a second.  How is it
possible that such an interval is timed by ordinary equipment, much less by
the pre-computerized equipment of WW II days?

Message: 69196
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Roger/rain
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 04:46:45

 The rain here in Peoria was horizontal also, since it was being pushed by
some 80mph winds. Lots of water in the streets, many streets closed,
including sections of Grand Ave. and the B.C. Freeway. As of this moment it
is raining pretty hard again, and I have to drive the Red Cross medical van
today. Oh FUN!

Message: 69197
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: tornado?
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 04:49:18

 The reported tornado in N. Phoenix on Monday was repudiated by the weather
bureau. According to them, tornadoes originate in the clouds and come down.
This one went up from the ground. It was designated by the eggheads at the
weather bureau as a (are you ready for this?) gustnado. Now there's a new
one for ya!

Message: 69198
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Answer!
Subject: Melissa
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 04:56:05

 I recall quite well at least one case on the west side where two children
were taken from the parents on absolutely nothing more than the say-so of a
5 or 6 year old neighbor who had made some remarks about the father. This
case was well publicized and even got the attention of the state
legislature. There were no, repeat NO interviews or even questions asked of
the parents. CPS simply walked in and removed the children, who incidentally
were very happy at home, and the parents had to go through literal hell to
get them back. WNitness after witness, friend after friend swore that the
family unit was strong and there was no sign of abuse at all, but none of
that swayed the good bureaucrats of the CPS from their sworn "duty" to the
children. You may have seen another side of this organization, and that's
good, but as long as it can generate horror stories like this one, something
drastically  needs to be done.

Message: 69199
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Peter on the arts
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 05:03:56

 While I don't believe in racism or discrimination for any reason, nor do I
believe in censorship, since it is simply one set of beliefs against
another, I also do not believe in public funding for things that should be
strictly privately suported. This includes the arts as subsidized by the
NEA, sport stadiums or arenas, amphitheaters, or anything else that should
either succeed or fail by the laws of supply and demand. If such functions
cannot stand on their own merit, without taxpayer funding, then they should
fall. With all due respect, Peter, and I wish you nothing but the best, your
art studio, Jerry Colangelo's new downtown arena, Zef Bufman's amphitheater
or the proposed baseball stadium are doing me absolutely no good at all.
They don't particularly interest me, they don't benefit me
financially,nothing. Why, then, should 68 cents, $1100 or even one red cent
of my limited income go to help support any of them?

Message: 69200
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Answer!
Subject: Carl on death camps
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 07:10:19

You said - "Besides, what kind of quality of life did those people have
anyway?" 
 
It wasn't the quality - it was the hope for the future and that's about all
they had - a future of a better quality as long as they were alive. Are you
suggesting that we should have killed them ourselves because they were going
to die anyway???? If I'm not mistaken, thousands were in those camps when we
occupied them and they lived on didn't they? -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 69201
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Pauley on Gustnado
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 07:12:27

'Gustnado' is the same gobble-do-gook as the 'Monsoons' are - no such things
at least in the valley. -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 69202
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Question?
Subject: The sysop
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 07:27:15

Where is our beloved Mighty Sysop hiding? He hasn't been on for days.
                         -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 69203
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Daryl/artists
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 12:30:59

I don't consider artists undisciplined children because I know we don't pay
any of our artists, including musicians, according to their value to
society. 

Message: 69204
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Answer!
Subject: RADAR
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 12:33:31

102 nanoseconds is a long time today.

Message: 69205
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Paul/rain
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 12:34:27

It's extremely humid again today. I can see the clouds building up to
the east. I suspect we will get more rain. Sigh.

Message: 69206
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Answer!
Subject: Beloved SysOp
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 20:16:40

        Here I am Annie!    Geee, I did not know I was the 'Beloved SysOp'.
Anyway, I have been out of your way for the past week or so...  I see the
board survived without me just fine.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 69207
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann/69200
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 20:49:19

The thousands in the camps at the time of liberation were not the thousands
in the camps at various times prior to liberation.  Very few people survived
for any appreciable time once they were in the system, and the number who
actually survived internment throughout the war was very small indeed.  Any
"hopes for the future" were generally unfilfilled, and millions could have
been spared, in all likelyhood, if we had made it clear that such places
would not be tolerated but would be destroyed.  Of course, if we had made a
clear moral stand to begin with, including the most horrific retribution
guaranteed for those who would participate in such atrocities, they most
likely would not have occured, at least not on such a scale or with such
formal planning.  As someone else pointed out, the world was tested for its
reaction, and the world was apathetic.  They Nazis did not start out with
the kind of program they ended with; oh, they probably had that in mind, but
the point is that they implimented it little by little, testing how their
victims, the countrymen of the victims, and the rest of the world would
react.  It is a typical pattern with bullies.  A bully does not ordinarily
walk up to a perfect stranger and beat them up.  They test the attitude of
those who might oppose them, including the attitude of the potential victim,
and after certain escalations have taken place with certain results,
violence is carried out.

Message: 69208
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Roger/RADAR
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 20:52:04

That doesn't answer the question.  The question is, how could suc

Public & Free Bulletin Board command:EC

You chose Chit Chat

Subject:Jeff/Nazi

Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
 1:People don't go around bombing prisoner of war camps.  I would imagine that 
 2:many of the prisoners had hope for the future as Ann pointed out.  If they 
 3:heard through the grapevine that the German military was in trouble from 
 4:fighting too many fronts then that reason would give many of them hope.  The
 5:ones who gave up hope probably died (many of them; the ones who were not 
 6:gassed) from having gave up.  Sure death is a good thing but it is not my 
 7:right to say when someone is to die and I doubt if Roosevelt wanted to be 
 8:know as a person who killed masses of people in order to spare them another 
 9:kind of death.  The popular theory seems to be to stay or keep someone alive
10:(unless they be a cat, dog or other species) for as long as possible.  
11:Roosevelt did the only thing he could.
12:
13:And the Americans and allies wiped out every rail line and locomotive it 
14:could but are you implying that those going to the death camps were left 
15:without harm on purpose?
16:
17:Course we could have zoomed in from satellite using our (can tell the rank 
18:of a soldier entering the Kremlin) camara and determined just what was 
19:taking place.  Nothing like first hand information is there?
20:
21:The only delibrate {sceme that Roosevelt and his staff we accused of that I 

22:am aware of is allowing Pearl Harbor to be bombed in order to gain support 
2 lines left
23:from the American people to enter the war in Europe and the East.
1 line left
24:                                                Rod

Edit command:S

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The message is 69226

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Message: 69208
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Roger/RADAR
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 20:52:04

That doesn't answer the question.  The question is, how could such timings
be carried out with ordinary modern equipment (i.e. RADAR guns), much less
with pre-computerized WW II vintage equipment.  102 nano-seconds was not a
long time then, nor is it now for normal equipment, or if it is, I would
appreciate it if someone would explain how.

Message: 69209
Author: $ Mad Max
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Germany
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 21:09:41

Yes I agree, that why it is good that we intervened in saudi arabia.
       THE
M M A D   M M A X
  M M A D   M M A X
    M M A D   M M A X

Message: 69210
Author: $ Mad Max
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Vocabulary
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 21:11:17

Hey Jeff, I have to look up that word in the dictionary before I answer to
that.
       THE
M M A D   M M A X
  M M A D   M M A X
    M M A D   M M A X

Message: 69211
Author: $ Mad Max
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: School
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 21:25:19

Michael If your talking about Mrs Janet Miller the math instructor, yes i
have a class by her, intermediate algebra.
thanks again for recomending this school, it's great.
       THE
M M A D   M M A X
  M M A D   M M A X
    M M A D   M M A X

Message: 69212
Author: Michael Kielsky
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Radar/GCU
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 22:15:14

When it comes to radar, one usually measures not the time interval, but the
shift in frequency which comes from motion, either of the radar emitter, or
the radar reflector.  The amount of shift in frequency is dependent on the
speed and direction of travel of the observer or subject.  Radar was only in
experimental use during WWII.  It did not become very functional until the
fifties.

GCU: No, I was talking about Mrs. Barbara Miller, who probably teaches math
and computer science.

Re: Bombing the Concentration Camps.  Yes, many people would have died, but
more would likely have been saved.  Bombing the railroad tracks and roads
leading to the concentration camps would also have served that purpose. 
Rebuilding something that is destroyed requires resources which are scarce
during a war, and might likely have been placed on a lower priority.  This
would have slowed the killing, saving thousands, perhaps millions of lives.

But in fact, the allies were very aware of the true nature of the
concentration camps, and made a conscious effort to avoid bombing them or
their transportation systems.  Several books detailing this essential
conspiracy (one of many during that war) have been published.  Roosevelt was
personally responsible for ordering the U.S. military to not destroy the
camps.  This, along with the turning away of the St. Louis, which carried
refugees who later ended up in the camps, makes Roosevelt culpable.

Message: 69213
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Politics
Subject: Paul, NEA, etc
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 23:01:59

Paul - Fine.  So you hear of one situation (which I'm sure you know all of
the facts to) and that means that all the children it has helped is canceled
out for this one incident?  I agree that it should never happen, but neither
should a child be raped, especially by their own parents.  I want to help
change the system to help the children.  What you are suggesting is bring
down the only system in Arizona that can help them.  Children are already
unrepresented.  
 
I don't think the government should fund art.  It also seems to go against
what being an artist is about; starving to build character and all that.
Besides, it creates an atmosphere where artist compromise what they really
want to create so that they can get funding.  
Major double plus ungood.

Message: 69214
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: JB/Radar
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 23:24:28

Mike Kielsky made the right comment (what is interesting in speed guns is
the red/blue shift -- this is what determines relative speed of the gun and
the thing the gun's waves hit).  Just measuring the time delay would give
one the distance.  Using two such units, one could do some triangulation and
determine position as well...

Message: 69215
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: NEA
Date: 09/06/90  Time: 00:21:44

  Did anybody else see James Taranto on MTV's The Week In Rock, commenting
on the funding contraversy? He said that Mapplethorpe and the rest of the
artists who were taking tax money to create art most people would object to
were 'thumbing their noses  society'. I think he was right.
   See You Later,
      Dean H.

Message: 69216
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Politics
Subject: Debate
Date: 09/06/90  Time: 00:24:53

  How about that Democratic Governor's debate tonight? If Goddard had hired
a stooge to debate him in order to make him look good he could not have done
any better. Moss even held up Hitler as source of inspiration for
educational policy, based on the effectiveness of his armies. Moss wants to
tax and spend just as much as Goddard does, but sounds like an idiot
besides.
   See You Later,
      Dean H.

Message: 69217
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Edsel
Date: 09/06/90  Time: 00:25:27

   Having finished my study of the Edsel, for the time being at least, here
is some information in case anybody cares.
   In the mid 1950's, Ford Motor Company believed that the one area of the
auto market in which they were least represented, and which had the
greatest growth potential, was the mid-priced market. Their projections for
the economy had this market growing astronomically as rising young
executives and prosperous families demanded vehicles with that extra bit of
style, comfort, and performance to set them apart from the preponderance of
ordinary cars on the road. Ford decided that in order to best position
themselves in this emerging market they should create a separate division
just to serve it, a la Buick and Oldsmobile of the General Motors clan.
   For the launching of this new endeavor the company spent more time and
money on market research, publicity, and product planning than they had
ever invested in any previous launch. The total cost of the program was
estimated at $250 million.
   The publicity campaign was a huge success, up until the car was actually
in the market anyway, so that aspect can hardly be faulted. The media was
played like a fine instrument by the Edsel division's PR men before the
car's introduction, and became a practical extension of the PR department.
Judging from the eagerness of reporters to amplify and echo the slightest
detail about the car before it even existed, Ford's belief that it was
bringing the car buying public just what it wanted seemed highly justified.
Later, the media people who saw and drove the cars in advance of their sale


Message: 69218
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: 2of8
Date: 09/06/90  Time: 00:25:58

to the public were even more confident that it would be a huge success.
But the disaster which soon befell the new car line brings into question
just how wisely the expenditures for market research and product planning
were really made.
   The Edsel's styling is credited with a great share of its failure, but
that view may not be entirely accurate. The car was a bold departure from
the huge, open-maw grilles full of chrome teeth and the huge tail fins
which characterized most of its competition. The clean lines of the Edsel's
scalloped sides and flat rear deck probably did much to kill off the
penchant for tail fins which had swept the industry for years. What did not
catch on, however, was the Edsel's vertical grille. Originally envisioned
as resembling a blade or shield on the car's nose, it was opened up as a
concession to concerns over possible engine cooling problems. The open
quasi-oval shape began to be identified with a horse collar or a toilet
seat, or a more personal orifice as the car's other problems came to light,
and they just didn't look right anymore after that. It became the wrong
look at the wrong time. Ten years later the same front end styling would be
a big success for Pontiac. For the 1959 models the Edsel's grille was
redesigned to eliminate the hollow look, and the odious comparisons, and
the latter treatment does look much more handsome by today's standards. As
with other Edsel fixes, it was already too late.
   Several problems which contributed to the early demise of the Edsel
arose out of management conflicts within Ford Motor Company itself.


Message: 69219
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: 3of8
Date: 09/06/90  Time: 00:26:25

The first mistake was the naming of the car. Great effort was put into
constructing a list of names which the public identified with the qualities
the new car line was to represent. A strong indicator that four of the
names were especially good was provided by the fact that the same four
names were at the top of the lists when two separate research organizations
concluded their surveys. None of these four names won out, even though the
name 'Edsel' had been shown to rate less than zero with the public in every
test. While the name 'Edsel' had a strong identification with style and
good character within the Detroit area, where Edsel Ford had been a well
respected leader of the community, its most common reaction from outsiders
in a word association test had been 'schmedsel' or 'pretzel'.
   Edsel Ford's widow and all three of their sons, Henry II, Bensen, and
William, had vocally opposed the use of Edsel's name on any car. However,
E.R. Breech, Chairman of the Board at FMC, had been calling the project the
'Edsel' since its early beginning when it was internally known as the 'E'
project and a newsman who learned of the 'E' designation publicly submitted
a guess that it stood for 'Edsel'. Breech seems to have felt that naming
the car for Edsel Ford would be a fitting way to honor the late company
president, and that Henry II probably felt the same, if only in secret.
Henry II also had a young son named Edsel. Breech may have felt that
bringing Henry II's unspoken desire to fruition would ingratiate him with
the family and fortify Breech's position in the hostile internal politics
at Ford. In reality, at least some of Edsel's family felt that the company


Message: 69220
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: 4of8
Date: 09/06/90  Time: 00:26:54

was the instrument by which Edsel's father, the original Henry Ford, had
beaten the life out of Edsel, and surely did not consider it an honor for
his very name to be given over to it. They had resisted the use of his name
enough already that the PR department had announced that 'Edsel' would not
be in the running and that it should no longer be included in any of the
surveys or naming contests which were being conducted.
   When the final meeting took place to decide on a name once and for all,
all three of the Ford brothers were away and Breech virtually railroaded
the name Edsel through the process. He then contacted Henry II and told him
that it had been a unanimous choice of the Board. He didn't mention that
the board had not been allowed to vote on any other names.  Reluctantly, or
in secret agreement, Henry II did not try to change the decision. Edsel's
widow is said to have slammed her door in the face of the person who
brought her the news.
   The name may not have hurt the car all that much, but it certainly did
not help, and as events unfolded it became clear that Ford's latest
debutante needed all the help it could get. The name became just one more
easy target for detractors. Most people, even today, are not aware that
Edsel was dead for over a decade before the car was named for him, and many
may have imagined that he enshrined his name upon it as an act of vanity.
   Other instances of corporate infighting hurt the car's chances much more
that the mere decision of what to call it. Robert McNamara, later a chief
architect of the Viet Nam war as U.S. Secretary of State, opposed the 'E'


Message: 69221
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: 5of8
Date: 09/06/90  Time: 00:27:23

car from the very beginning. He, as the head of the Ford division was
inclined to build a smaller, cheaper car and saw the 'E' project as a gaudy
waste of time. McNamara was not able to kill the project in favor of his
own plans at the start; E.R. Breech had no interest in small cars; but
McNamara tormented the project all the way, and presided over its final
destruction just two years after it began.
   Ford and Mercury divisions saw the Edsel as nothing but unwanted
competition, and did what they could to nip it in the bud. The Edsel had
been much heralded as a lower priced car than its GM counterparts by the PR
department, but that put it too close to Ford and Mercury prices to suit
many in the company. A price increase went through, and the Edsel, as the
first car introduced for 1958, found itself selling at a higher than
expected price against other maker's subsidized year-end closeouts of 1957
models, including Fords and Mercurys. The total sales in that mid-priced
category were nowhere near what Ford had previously expected either. The
country was starting into a recession, and it seemed that hoopla about big
new cars was a lot more popular than buying them.
   In the initial model year there were four models in the Edsel line.
Those four names which America had favored most in surveys; Citation,
Corsair, Pacer, and Ranger; became the model names.  Due to some
apprehension about being stuck with 'Edsel', the designers played up the
model names, making them more visible than had been the norm on most cars.
This practice is one of many Edsel features which has carried over into


Message: 69222
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: 6of8
Date: 09/06/90  Time: 00:27:51

other cars long after the Edsel's departure. Ranger and Pacer were the
lower priced versions, which would be made by the Ford Division.  Corsair
and Citation were the larger and more expensive models, which would be
manufactured by the Mercury Division.
   Terrible quality control problems plagued the cars at the outset. The
Edsel line was introduced ahead of the rest of Ford's products for 1958,
and was the first to feel the brunt of problems with outside suppliers. A
run of camshafts and pushrods came in which were softer than they should
have been. It took time for this problem to become noticeable, and the cars
were already in the field before it was diagnosed. Some of the Edsel's
special features were also trouble prone, like the popular automatic
transmission selector which was built into the hub of the steering wheel.
   The manufacturing strategy created opportunities for many assembly
problems. There was no pilot production plant for the Edsels, they had been
designed and built first as a few hand made prototypes and then the actual
production was turned over to the Ford and Mercury plants. Those plants did
not have separate assembly lines for the Edsel products, and just threw in
an Edsel after about 60 of their regular cars came down the line. This
practice made the work more difficult, especially since the assembly lines
were speeded up to accommodate the extra load. The shortened work time at
each station, coupled with the nuisance of doing a different piece of work
when that 61st car came along, must have made the Edsels an unwelcome sight
in the plants.  McNamara's Ford division plants were the backbone of the


Message: 69223
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: 7of8
Date: 09/06/90  Time: 00:28:22

company financially, and although their quality on Ford products was
excellent, the Edsel cars they turned out tended to be the worst. Edsel
division was denied the right to have any of their own management or
inspectors on site in the plants.
   As the sorry state of quality control was relayed from dealers and
customers to upper management, an attempt was made at reform. Groups of
Edsels off the assembly line were graded for defects and could not be sent
to dealers unless their aggregate problems were below a certain standard.
This still allowed for serious problem cars to be averaged in with others
and delivered. Due to parts shortages and other reasons, it was common for
cars to be delivered to dealers with a list of defects attached to the
steering wheel. Often, the dealer couldn't get the parts either so the car
would be jury rigged in the field or cannibalized to fix other cars. A
group of about 70 cars out of the first ones produced was specially
prepared for use by the automotive press. Edsel division had the cars
checked out and repaired as necessary beforehand to make sure that the
reporters would not find them faulty. Company management was astounded to
learn that the average cost of this procedure turned out to be over a
thousand dollars per car.
   Quality control improved much with the 1959 models, but it was too late.
Sales had never reached profitable levels, and the car had become the
laughingstock of the industry. The media seemed to go all out in reversing
its earlier treatment of the car. From sales in the 60,000 range for 1958,


Message: 69224
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: 8of8
Date: 09/06/90  Time: 00:28:44

the car dropped to the 40,000 range in 1959, and the production lines were
stopped in late 1959 after only a little over 2800 1960 models had been
made.
   By the time the division was folded, some new plants had been built to
produce Edsel parts. With the Edsel out of the way, McNamara was able to
use those plants to quickly gear up to bring out his economy car, the
Falcon. With that logistical jump on the competition, and with great
economic timing, it was a huge success. The Falcon sold a record breaking
400,000 units the first year. Later it would be the basis for the Mustang.
   See You Later,
      Dean H.

Message: 69225
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Sandy
Date: 09/06/90  Time: 01:51:31

Wasn't five hundred years ago about the time the white man invaded the
America's?

Wasn't a hundred or less years ago about the time the U.S. invaded Mexico
(Arizona/California) and took by force the land you now are on?

Wasn't several months ago the time when the U.S. invaded Panama in order to
keep the real estate in the hands of a suitable person?  Granada?  Cuba? 

It is a way of life that has been played ever since animal first appeared on
this planet, however unfortunate.

The points you make are logical in that if the U.S just laid down all of its
arms, bombs and planes included then it wouldn't be two weeks before a
military nation came knocking at our door.  War and conquest are a fact of
life.


Message: 69226
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jeff/Nazi
Date: 09/06/90  Time: 02:04:43

People don't go around bombing prisoner of war camps.  I would imagine that
many of the prisoners had hope for the future as Ann pointed out.  If they
heard through the grapevine that the German military was in trouble from
fighting too many fronts then that reason would give many of them hope.  The
ones who gave up hope probably died (many of them; the ones who were not
gassed) from having gave up.  Sure death is a good thing but it is not my
right to say when someone is to die and I doubt if Roosevelt wanted to be
know as a person who killed masses of people in order to spare them another
kind of death.  The popular theory seems to be to stay or keep someone alive
(unless they be a cat, dog or other species) for as long as possible. 
Roosevelt did the only thing he could.

And the Americans and allies wiped out every rail line and locomotive it
could but are you implying that those going to the death camps were left
without harm on purpose?

Course we could have zoomed in from satellite using our (can tell the rank
of a soldier entering the Kremlin) camara and determined just what was
taking place.  Nothing like first hand information is there?

The only delibrate sceme that Roosevelt and his staff we accused of that I
am aware of is allowing Pearl Harbor to be bombed in order to gain support
from the American people to enter the war in Europe and the East.
                                                Rod

Public & Free Bulletin Board command:UIP

Message to update (68974-69226):69226

Edit command:L15

15:without harm on purpose?
16:
17:Course we could have zoomed in from satellite using our (can tell the rank
18:of a soldier entering the Kremlin) camara and determined just what was
19:taking place.  Nothing like first hand information is there?
20:
21:The only delibrate sceme that Roosevelt and his staff we accused of that I
22:am aware of is allowing Pearl Harbor to be bombed in order to gain support
23:from the American people to enter the war in Europe and the East.
24:                                                Rod

Edit command:E21

21:The only delibrate sceme that Roosevelt and his staff we accused of that I
Find text:staff
Replace text:staff w

21:The only delibrate sceme that Roosevelt and his staff we accused of that I
Find text:staff we
Replace text:staff were

21:The only delibrate sceme that Roosevelt and his staff were accused of that I
Find text:

Edit command:L21

21:The only delibrate sceme that Roosevelt and his staff were accused of that I
22:am aware of is allowing Pearl Harbor to be bombed in order to gain support
23:from the American people to enter the war in Europe and the East.
24:                                                Rod

Edit command:S

Saving message...
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Public & Free Bulletin Board command:G

Goodbye, Rod Williams
You were on 42:27

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>J)
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z/EFVje