Apollo BBS Archive - September 1990

Apollo BBS Archive - September 4, 1990

Mail from John Cummings
Date: 09/04/90  Time: 16:29:48

        Wow! We do have different values! You state that if a creator lets
ANY of his creatures suffer, he is a demon-monster! 
        But, I maintain that a creator who makes creatures who are UNABLE to
use free will, then he makes robots or computers, not human beings. And if
he makes humans and gives them free will, then there will be pain,
suffering, wars, killing, etc. There is no way around it.
        Therefore, lets try a little syllogistic question, to wit: either
there is a creator, or there is not, okay? Now, IF there is a creator, then
he must be one who makes people with free will and the ability to choose
war, pain, agony, etc., as is apparent from observation. Do you agree? Can
we agree upon IF there is a creator, then this is what he creates?
        This is not a trap, I'm just curious.
        Also, tho I do not claim to be the brightest kid on the block, I
know a lot of strong-minded, non-gullible believers What about them?
        Thanks for your thoughts--please continue.    --John C.--

Mail to John Cummings
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 00:39:37

If there was some enormous power who had the capability to create what it
wanted then I doubt if it would create the human condition in the first
place.  If it did then I would have to say that this power was primlarly
evil.  Why, you ask?

Because it would have to enjoy the suffering that is on this planet because
there is so much of it.  In fact there is more suffering than happiness and
it has always been so.  

If this creator was capable of knowing the past, present and future and also
knows each individual creation it made then it would also have to know if it
was capable of using what you call free will.  It would also have to know
that a certain percentage of what it created would land in eternal
punishment, without god, as you put it.  It would have to know this if only
one of its creations landed in that situation and therefore what you say is
ridiculous.  You are also saying in effect that god made people for eternal
punishment.  And consider this:  The norm is for humans to be basically
unhappy so they go through life finding one hardship after another then when
they die, a certain percentage will continue to find unhappiness, for
forever no less.  

What type of monster are you thinking of?  Besides why would an entity that
was capable of creating something create beings like us?  We are grossly
ugly and would never be capable of being good company for such a being.  -R
Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 69164
Author: $ Sandi Marlin
Category: War!
Subject: Rod/Iraq
Date: 09/03/90  Time: 18:56:30

I bet if you ask the Kuwaitis, thay aren't too excited about getting
swallowed by another stronger country. That's not the way you'd expect a
civilized country to act, no matter what the reason. I mean, it'd be nice to
have a beach in Arizona, and Mexico has a lot of problems anyway, but you
don't see the US annexing Mexico, do you(they have oil there too I think).
There is no way around the situation. Iraq had a debt. Iraq had an argument
with Kuwait. Kuwait couldn't defend itself. So Iraq helped itself. It could
just as easily take the United Arab Emirates and other small relatively
helpless countries in the middle east. Now you can argue whether America
should appoint itself policeman(in theory, this is supposed to be the whole
world smacking Iraq across the face and telling it no), and there is some
vested interest, both in economic matters and future safety.
Iraq knew perfectly well that it's, well, just kinda sorta illegal to take
over countries and it was going to have answer to the UN and the rest of the
world. (Oh, gee, maybe no one'll notice) They started it, knowing full well
the probable consequences of their actions. They seem to be ready to go to
war over it. They had nothing more than even more dishonorable economic
intentions at heart as a motive.
And you think we're 100% the bad guy?

Message: 69165
Author: $ Sandi Marlin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rod/Arabs
Date: 09/03/90  Time: 19:00:41

Speaking for myself and probably for most of the people you're arguing with
on the matter on this board, I have nothing personal against Arabs in
general or Iraqis in particular. Like during the Cold War, people
attacked Russians in general when the average Russian wasn't too enthused
over what the government was doing and was probably a perfectly nice human
being. When I speak of "the Iraqis" I'm talking about the ones who have say
in such matters, like the ones who thought it was am appropriate idea to
annex an independent country to absolve a debt...

Message: 69166
Author: $ Sandi Marlin
Category: War!
Subject: Rod/Iraq
Date: 09/03/90  Time: 19:05:31

I don't think too many people want to go to war, least of all the people
over there. Even other Arabs have tried and failed to reach a diplomatic
conclusion to the conflict. It basically comes down to the fact that Hussein
refuses to give up his prize and the rest of the world refuses to let him
get away with it. Considering that Hussein started it, Hussein committed an
international illegal act, and he refuses to back down, the rest of the
world is justified in censuring him. If no diplomatic solution is found and
war occurs, it can be put on Hussein's doorstep. He is the aggressor and any
war that happens will be his fault.

Message: 69167
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Answer!
Subject: Paul
Date: 09/03/90  Time: 21:35:43

Most of the children that are "protected" by CPS are not the ones pointing
fingers at their parents.  Most are under the age of 13.  Most are reported
by teachers, other relatives, or neighbors.  The unfortunate thing is that
many are not reported.  And those children that are taken from their parents
don't understand why and end up in a foster home, lonely and unable to trust
anyone.  
I don't know what the solution is but CPS does offer some good services
through free counseling.  What seems to work best is when the child can go
to someone they trust ( a school nurse or friend) and just get out of the
house some how.  Unfortunately (again), the parent has to sign a form to
allow the child to leave and be emansipated and they usually don't sign and
then no one can do anything for the kid.  Not even counseling.  
And the kids don't all want to see their parents behind bars.  Like I said,
many are so used to their way of life they don't see anything is wrong and
they still love their parents.  When they do see something is wrong, they
can't (legally) do anything about it.  And if they want to prosucute, it is
VERY hard to supply evidence, especially in the cases of repeated sexual
abuse.  
No, Paul, I don't think what is sad is the system but that the system does
not work and that there are so many innocent children that are abused.

Message: 69168
Author: $ Steve MacGregor
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Beck/Infinitesimals
Date: 09/03/90  Time: 22:12:43

  Are you saying that infinitesimals are not real?
  If so, then explain how it is possible to get from one point to another in
a finite amount of time, when there are an infinite number of points between
the two that you have to go through.
 
         ____nhnnn__________   We all live in a yellow subroutine

Message: 69169
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Russian Tobacco
Date: 09/03/90  Time: 22:55:13

I wonder if it would be worthwhile for me to stock up on Marlboros and take
a brief trip to Moscow.

You think?

Message: 69170
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rod / Hussein
Date: 09/03/90  Time: 22:59:21

If you would like to know more about Iraq and Saddam Hussein, I have a
friend of mine who was born and raised in Iraq, in Babylon. He is a good
source of information about Iraq.

Of course, he fled from Iraq several years ago to escape religious
persecution (he's a Christian). But he still loves his native country even
though he is now an American citizen. He keeps up on a lot of what is going
on in the Arab countries through Arabic newspapers and magazines.

Message: 69171
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Things
Date: 09/03/90  Time: 23:08:15

Gosh, everything has been simply
Outstanding lately! No opportunity to
Dial in lately, but that's because I've been busy.
 
I like my new job, co-workers are
Simply stupendous!
 
Now that my wife has started working
Once again, we should be able
To start getting back on our feet, financially.
 
Dunno if anyone cares, just thought I'd
Enter in a message before bed
And let you know I'm still alive!
Daryl...signing off.

Message: 69172
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Steve/infinitesimals
Date: 09/04/90  Time: 02:20:35

You make my point for me.  After reading all of my messages on this subject,
you still do not distinguish between MODEL and REALITY.
 
Nobody passes through an infinite number of points in reality.  Nobody
passes through ANY points in reality.  THERE ARE NO POINTS IN REALITY. 
POINTS ARE A MATHEMATICAL ABSTRACTION.
 
You are confusing actual motion with an analytical model of motion.  In your
model, where, for instance, one must pass through half the distance before
one passes across the whole distance, and previously, must pass through a
quarter of the distance and before that an eighth, and so on ad infinitum,
the sum of the partial distances is the limiting sum of a convergent series;
in this manner the sum of an infinite series is finite.  Each of these sub-
intervals contains an infinite number of points.
 
But that is a description of an abstract model; not a description of
physical reality.  There are an infinite number of *points* on a number
*line*, an infinite number of both on a 2-D *plane*, and an infinite number
of all three in mathematical three-space.  There are no points in reality. 
There are no lines in reality.  There are no planes in reality.  OK?

Message: 69173
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Melissa/CPS
Date: 09/04/90  Time: 05:21:48

 Sorry to say this dear, but I'm afraid that you may hve your blinders
adjusted a bit too tight where CPS is concerned.
 If all you said was true, it would be another matter entirely, and CPS
would be totally justified in all their actions.
 However, the facts seem to be that CPS does indeed remove children from
their families, without parental consent, and does place them in foreign (to
them) environments, and the parents have to go through hell to get them
back. All this at times without a shred of real evidence of abuse other than
the say so of a neighbor, or even a neighbor's child.
 I agree that it is a sad situation indeed when innocent children are
abused, physically, emotionally or otherwise, but the term is being too
liberally spread to include parental actions that are not abusive, but
disciplinary or corrective, and a governmental system that intrudes on the
privacy of family values and purposes is in definite and dire need of
improvement or abolition.

Message: 69174
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: models and reality
Date: 09/04/90  Time: 05:39:20

In considering what would constitute a description of actual motion, it
should be noted that one cannot make use of quantitative terms.  Thus,
I might describe a real motion by stating a description such as "the man
moved from the front door of his house to his car in the driveway."  The
instant, however, in which quantitative descriptive terms were brought in,
however, the statement would no longer describe real motion but an abstract
model of it.  For example, quantifying the previous description, one might
say "the man moved thirty feet."  But this is a description of a model of
reality, not reality itself.  For what some people do not seem to realize
is that all quantitative concepts, such as distance, time, and so forth,
are purely abstract concepts.  There is no physical entity called a "foot";
there is no physical entity called a "minute."  
Now, Roger has in the past maintained that while the conventions
themselves are arbitrary (i.e., feet vs. meters...), they must in fact be
measuring something real.  He would maintain that time not the measurement
itself, but rather, something being measured.  He would maintain that
distance is not the measurement itself, but something real undergoing
measurement.  He does not understand that this is false, because he is not
consciously aware that he is considering models, and not reality, when he
makes such assertions.  This is because it is second nature for his mind to
translate reality into models of it; so much so that he is often not even
aware of this translatory process.  
 
(CONT.)

Message: 69175
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: models and reality 2
Date: 09/04/90  Time: 05:40:19

When I say that time is the measurement of the temporal interval between two
occurring events, Roger says, no, time is what is being measured between the
events. When I say that distance is the measurement of the spatial interval
between two physical objects, he replies that distance is what is being
measured between those objects.  In each case, however, he has, without
even realizing it, translated reality into abstract models; models in which
physical entities are represented by points, points which have been
incorporated into a metric grid of some sort, so that they might be defined
analytically in terms of coordinates.  It should be understood that he
does this both in the consideration of time and in the consideration of
distance; in the former case, events are the points, in the latter, objects.
It should now be clear that distance does not measure; distance is a
measurement; the measurement is the spatial interval. Ditto for time. This
is confusing, because linguistically, we ordinarily consider the measured
and the measurement to be two different things, and not only that, but
we have been taught that what is measured is necessarily real.  But, in
the sense in which I have been discussing, we do not measure things; we
apply measurements to them, or more accurately, we apply measurements to
the symbols of real things in our abstract models of reality.  To say that
the conventions of measurement are arbitrary units, should be to realize
that measurement is an analytic concept applied to analytic models.  But
most often, this is not the case; people do not make the step from "it
doesn't matter how you slice it" to "all such slicing is artificial because
it is arbitrary."

Message: 69176
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: an explanatory note
Date: 09/04/90  Time: 05:41:34

It might be observed, then, given these definitions, that a statement
such as "time is the measurement of the temporal interval between two
occuring events" is redundant, since the measurement in this case *is*
the "temporal interval."  
 
And this is so.  Why should it not be?  ALL true analytical statements
are tautologies; surprise, surprise!  This one is only more obviously so
than some others.
 
Consider the statement "red is a color."  This is no less redundant than
the previous statement.  For the sense of the concept of color is contained
in the sense of the concept of red.  The predicate "is a color" adds
no meaning to the subject "red" whatsoever, since it is implicitly
contained therein.  We might just as easily say "red."  We add "is a color"
simply because we are creating a definition, and by explicitly stating
what is implied in one symbol, we have defined it in use.  

Message: 69177
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: dry heat ?
Date: 09/04/90  Time: 07:48:46

It rained extremely hard in North Scottsdale last night. Many trees were
struck by lightning with numberous large branches laying in the street. When
the storm came rumbling into my neighborhood, the rain was more horizontal
than vertical and whipped around in near-circles. I heard there was a
tornado at Central and Union Hills. Anyone else get a lot of rain ?

Message: 69178
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Roger on rain
Date: 09/04/90  Time: 09:19:22

We got a lot! More than I've seen since we've been in the area in 6 years.
51st ave was flooded curb to curb and that has never happened since we've
been here. Our back yard was almost entirely flooded - in another hour, if
the rains hadn't of let up, it'd been right at the back door! I know we got
over three inches because the pool filled up at least that much. I heard the
Airport only got a trace of rain too! Weird! Talking to a guy on the JCCS
BBS this morning - he said there was indeed a small tornado hit around the
Union Hills area. -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 69179
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: ann on rain
Date: 09/04/90  Time: 09:40:37

We got more rain than I've seen in a long time, too. The water from the wash
feeding in from Shea Blvd was flowing so fast culvert couldn't handle the
flow with the consequence that the main street (Arabian Trail) turned into a
river, nearly flooding the houses on the corner. At least it disappears
quickly. At 9:00 pm the flood was but a trickle and this morning there were
mounds of "kitty litter" washed from the yards of our neighbors.
Fortunately, we have grass in our front yard, so it greened up just a bit
more.

Message: 69180
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Answer!
Subject: Paul
Date: 09/04/90  Time: 11:03:02

It is very rare and extremely difficult to get a child taken away from their
parents.  In the cases were that occurs, there have had to have been at
least two different interviews with the children and family.  
I don't think it is I who am wearing the blinders.  I have seen CPS's work
first hand while working with CASA  (Center Against Sexual Assault) and most
of the mother's there were complaining that CPS or the state could not do
anything to protect their children from the abusive father (or mother as the
case may be, but I never say any children in that situation). 

Message: 69181
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Answer!
Subject: Rain
Date: 09/04/90  Time: 11:03:35

Yes.  It rained buckets at our house.
Oh, and by the way.  Does anyone want a rabbit?

Message: 69182
Author: $ Sandi Marlin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: storms
Date: 09/04/90  Time: 17:16:05

It looked terrifically threatening, with turquoise colored clouds and all
down here in Central Phx. Unfortunately, it never got around to raining
much, just enough to get the dust on my car wet.

Message: 69183
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Storms
Date: 09/04/90  Time: 18:56:39

I had problems getting into a shopping mall parking lot since it was all
full of water.  Seems the puppet heads who made the place thought it was a
good I idea to have the lot slope down in the middle.  I don't know why,
since there was no drainage there or anything.
This other lot was full of mud.
(The first was at Northern and 43rdAve, the second 43rd and Thuderbird)

Message: 69184
Author: Red Dwarf
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rain?
Date: 09/04/90  Time: 20:04:04

  No rain here in Tempe... not a drop. A little dust...

 *ORIGIN - Lister's Starship - Tempe - 731-9538 - 24hour madness

Message: 69185
Author: $ Peter Petrisko
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: ART FUNDING
Date: 09/04/90  Time: 20:42:36

     Average amount paid by a federal taxpayer for NEA funding: 68 cents
     Average amount to be paid by each taxpayer on  S&L bail: 1100 dollars
  
     Racial/gender breakdown of artists publicly called "obscene" by
Sen. Jesse Helms:

homosexuals - 1
hispanics   - 1
quadraplegics - 1
women - 3
white males - 0
  
     If I were an aging southern white male, like Jesse Helms, I wouldn't
want these groups expressing themselves either, I suppose.  
  
     The issue ISN'T "obscenity" or public-funded art.  "Obscene" just makes
a sensational smokescreen to cover up the real threat.  The threat is
minority voices finally speaking out in this white-male society.  That's the
real threat to people like Helms.
     The NEA won't be discontinued.  Instead, "compromises" will be made. 
Meaning, any artist wanting funding in the future will have to agree
(probably in writing) to tow the acceptable line.  All opposing/questioning
voices will be denied funding.  Is this patriotism 90s style, or racism the
old fashion way?

Message: 69186
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: NEA funding
Date: 09/04/90  Time: 20:48:22

can an artist be really free if she is dependent on the government for
funding ? If the gov't spends the funds, doesn't that give the gov't 
power over the recipient of those funds ? Wouldn't it be better if we 
were asked to contribute as private citizens to underwrite artists ?

Message: 69187
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Peter on NEA
Date: 09/04/90  Time: 21:47:10

    Peter, trying to compare what the individual taxpayer pays to fund the
NEA to what the taxpayer is paying to bail out the S&Ls is like comparing
apples to oranges. They have absolutely nothing in common.
    As for your "racial/gender" breakdown of artists tagged by Helms as
'obscene,' again I think you are clutching for straws. You are trying to
make a discrimination case where there is none.
    What does being quadraplegic, or or Hispanic, or homosexual or female
have to do with one's artistic ability (or lack thereof)?
    Peter, the issue IS obscenity. Government funding for an exhibit of
homoerotic art, or for a photograph of a crucifix submerged in urine, is the
the issue. The smokescreen is created by those who want to try to make this
what it's not, such as a racist or sexist or discriminatory case.
    You try to make NEA funding to be a right. It is a privilege. And with
any privilege comes responsibility. If an artist doesn't like the boundaries
that the NEA might set up, then he or she is free to NOT APPLY FOR IT. There
are other avenues for funding, and there are plenty of artspaces willing to
open their doors for such artists.
    You ask if it is a question of racism or bigotry. Ask Andres Serrano why
he used government money to photograph a crucifix submerged in urine. Yes,
I'd be interested in finding out also, Peter.

Message: 69188
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Roger on Peter on NE
Date: 09/04/90  Time: 21:57:09

    Those are some good questions, Roger. Why do artists feel they need to
thrust their outstretched palm to the government? And why do they have to
complain like undisciplined children when the government refuses to fund
their 'artistic expressions' of their personal sexual tastes or religious
hatred?
    I have no problem with people expressing themselves however they wish.
But I certainly do not wish to spend a single penny to fund an artist that
expresses him/herself in a manner I consider to be repulsive.
    Why not add a second box to the IRS 1040 form, allowing each citizen to
check a box if they wish, which would contribute $1 to the NEA if they want-
ed to. I would most likely contribute, as I have seen a lot of good art,
music and television programming that has been funded in part by the NEA.
But if I felt that the NEA was being abused, I had the choice to refuse to
support it come the next tax year.

Message: 69189
Author: Michael Kielsky
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Various stuff...
Date: 09/04/90  Time: 22:40:34

Red Dwarf:  Hardly worth arguing with someone who takes a suggestion and
replies with personal insults.

Mad Max: Remember, I recommended GCU.  Have you met Mrs. Miller or Mr.
Thompson, yet?

Re: Hitler's Germany.  Hitler used various means, including illegal methods,
to gain power in Germany.  Their first try came in 1923, in the Munich
Beerhall Putch.  The coup was put down, as the military would not come to
his side.  Hitler spent barely over a year in prison, on a 6 year prison
sentence, during which time he wrote "Mein Kampf".  Anyone reading this book
would have clearly seen Hitlers plans to exterminate the Jews and other
minorities, and occupy most of Europe.  Through various parliamentary
procedures, and through some illegal scheming, Hitler finally came to power
in 1933.  Immediately, the first concentration camp was openend, and the
first opponents of his dictatorship were put there. Increasingly minorities
were openly attacked by Nazis, culminating in Kristallnacht in 1938, during
which many Jews were killed in their homes, businesses and synagogues.  Many
homes, businesses and synagogues were burned and destroyed, and many Jews
were taken to concentration camps.  The gassing and mass killing of
concentration camp victims began in 1939, following the opening of
additional camps in Poland, after it had been seized.  The world was fully
aware of these events, and President Roosevelt was begged time and again to
order the bombing of the murder factories.  He refused, and millions died.

Message: 69190
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Sandi/Iraq, etc.
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 00:51:58

If Hussein's action would have taken place 500 years ago would it be okay
then?  If he became strong enough and went ahead and took over Saudi Arabi,
and Jordan would that have been okay too?

We are speaking of 500 years ago.

Message: 69191
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bombing of factories
Date: 09/05/90  Time: 01:03:15

If Roosevelt had bombed the murder factories then millions more would have
been killed.

If you had the decision to make what would you do?  If you bomb them then
you are killing the prisoners.  If you do destroy them with bombs then the
Germans would just build another and again fill it with prisoners just
hoping you'd bomb that one too.  You'd be doing their jobs for them, so to
speak.

The Americans got to the death camps as quickly as they could.  All of our
strategies weren't always correct but that is the way it is.  If we made
every decision correctly then we could have liberated them sooner but that
is just not the way it works.