Apollo BBS Archive - September 1989

Apollo BBS Archive - September 22 - 23, 1989

Message: 61140
Author: Tom Weller  Note:  ***This is me.***
Category: Answer!
Subject: Mike Carter
Date: 09/21/89  Time: 14:23:04

Christians are some of the world's biggest puppets.  That's a fact.

Message: 61141
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: John R.
Date: 09/21/89  Time: 16:18:18

Re:  "Your religion bothers me not because I secretly agree with it, but
because I despise fatuity, hypocracy, pernicious hoaxes, mindless obesance,
primitivism, neurosis, psychosis, mindless fear and awe, unnatural and
deleterious inhibition, the persecution of the innocent, theft from the
gullible and weak, bullies, obscurantists, liars, cheats, swindlers, and
pettiness."

You can find all the above anywhere human beings gather.  It is not just in
religion.  To use religion as the whipping boy for all of life's problems is
illogical.

Message: 61142
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann
Date: 09/21/89  Time: 16:20:14

Re:  "They sent the $40 back, but fined us over $60 for sending too much."

As incredible as it sounds, it also is typical of our government.  I would
check with a tax friend before I sent in the money.

Message: 61143
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Tom W.
Date: 09/21/89  Time: 16:22:07

Re:  "Christians are some of the world's biggest puppets."

Why do you say that?  I don't follow you.  I'm a Christian, and I didn't
think I was a big puppet.

Message: 61144
Author: Mike Carter
Category: Answer!
Subject: John Ross
Date: 09/21/89  Time: 18:20:03

Re: "One cannot be all powerfull, all wise etc"
You contradict yourself there. If God was not capable of so much as one
facet of anything, he could not be termed all powerful. The mere fact
that his capabilities are there donot in anyway nullify being perfect.
AGain, you brush over the facts with a wave of your own icon of ignorance
and in doing so write contradictory statements and assertions.
One cannot be guilty of anything until a crime is committed. You somehow
twist Gods abilities into a conviction. I have the ability to commit
a crime, yet I refuse to. Somewhere you're missng this.
"How can Gods love for man be unconditonal if it depends on mans love fore
God?"
Gods love for man is not dependant on mans love for him. Read this line
again.
God loves man no matter what. God wont be sending anyone anywhere.
YOu send yourself there...be refusing him...he cannot force you into
heaven. SO he simply doesn't pick you up. He leaves you where you
want to be..without him and he leaves you to it.
Even if some of the purists vehemently claim God punishes you eternally,
this doesn't make it what will happen. God will have absolutely nothing to
do with those who don't want him. It's mans insane desire for revenge that
leads to tales like this one. 
Your definition of perfect conflicts with mine, Websters and the rest of
creation. Nothing I can do about that. Not my problem.

IF you figure simply having the capability to effect error makes one
imperfect...then please clarify what your imagination has to say about
what is perfect.
YOur assertions regarding evil and good are false logic to the max.
IN my field of science, I require a reference to make measurements with
equipment and mathematical computations. If something is two volts positive,
I require the use of ground zero to measure it with. If something is
negative, in order to know what negative is, I require again, the reference
of zero. Your misled ideals of Good without evil cannot exist on this Earth.
Without a measuring stick, a standard and a set of reasons, one cannot
possibly determine what is Good if one doesn't know what is bad.
If you were born in pain (by our standards now) and lived your whole life
in a stasis of constant pain, no changes, no fluctuations, you would never
feel it. Scientific study easily proves the bodies ability to adjust.
(Adjustments require measuring sticks).
 
Try it yourself sometime. Take a voltmeter to a wall socket. Leave one
of the leads unhooked and free. Plug the other into the HOT side of the
plug. WHat you measure is nothing. NO change. ANy change effected on the
meter are a result of the stray AC field. Perhaps a few microvolts.
If you lived on a 600,000 volt power line, you would'nt get shocked until
you touched something at a different potential. Good without evil can
only exist in one place. Heaven. Heaven contains no evil and never will.
WHy? Because God put us here to make the choice between good and evil

WHy couldn't we have just stayed and been born in heaven?
If you can't figure that one out then you haven't been reading my posts.
You need to read about it in the bible actually. It's more concise
and gives a clearer image of the reasons.
As far as your ineptness at logic and reason go, the height of supreme
ignorance is to think you yourself could make a better world and have
it work. Unless you were born yesterday, that's called utopia.
Man has failed miserably countless numbers of times at it.
Yet I read that you stand above all, even God and pass judgement on
creation and him as unworthy of "meddling in the act of creation.."
I think you were born yesterday.
Do you have the answer to life , the universe and everything? Can you
answer all questions, now, in the past and future? If you could
do one millionth of all that, you'd be worth more than any 500 billion
minds put together and would still fall into insignificance, less than
the tinyest grain or flake of sand on the largest beach when compared
to Gods wisdom. Yet he still loves us.
What's funny is that you attempt to stand above him and pass judgement
on him and all of his creation..including yourself.
No, your logic is plainly and patently flawed and to assert otherwise
..especially to assert your ideas are better and pass judgement on what
is...is the epitome of mans folly. Pride.
No two men think alike. No two scientists have the right answer...
so don't beg me to swallow Darwins horsepuckey either.

Message: 61147
Author: Mike Carter
Category: Answer!
Subject: Tom W.
Date: 09/21/89  Time: 18:53:00

Re: ..."That is a fact."
 
What is a fact to you, son? What defines a fact? Is a fact a whimsical
conjecture of instant prattle or a culmination of evidence with
a sprinkling of imagination?
 
Obviously you're trying to be a puppet master pulling the strings
on people to get a reaction. Do it enough and your puppets
in life will come back to haunt you.
 
Go belch lies about blacks down in south Phoenix. Or do you preferr
the spinless comfort and chiken brained luxury of remaining
irresponsible for your actions?
 

Message: 61148
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Me
Date: 09/21/89  Time: 19:07:45

I'm a ramblin', gamblin' man.

Message: 61149
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Question?
Subject: Last?
Date: 09/21/89  Time: 20:27:44

        Explain James.....???

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 61150
Author: Thomas Hart
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: DCI '89
Date: 09/22/89  Time: 00:22:52

  So, did anyone watch the 1989 Drum Corps Int'l World Championships on
PBS last Sunday?

Message: 61151
Author: Tom Weller  Note:  This is me***
Category: Answer!
Subject: Mike Carter
Date: 09/22/89  Time: 00:34:18

You accuse Darwin of being a poor scientist but at least he had an
open mind.  He didn't go by a book, he wrote one.

You talk about 'getting facts' but the only facts you have are from
the most senseless and ambiguous book ever written.
I think it was pointed out very well that those who totally deny God's
existence will find themselves in hell.  And you say that God is
incapable of and does not practice evil.  What?  Does He have a
henchman take care of all the dirty business?

You also state that to kill another person would be wrong, morally
evil and quite in error.  I guess this doesn't include wars or being a
part of the military whose sole doctrine is based upon turning its
members into  efficient killing machine.
Being a non-puppet, as you say, means that God cannot force anything
upon you.  What about by threat of eternal damnation if something is
not done?  You wouldn't call this force?  What do you call it, Mike?

Message: 61152
Author: Tom Weller  Note:  This is me ***
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Information
Date: 09/22/89  Time: 01:26:42

In Phoenix there are many different faiths.  Here is a list for your
information.  These are Headings only.

              Apostolic, Assemblies of God, Baha'l, Baptist, Baptist
American, Baptist Bible Fellowship, Baptist Conservative, Baptist Free
Will, Baptist General, Baptist General Conference, Baptist
Independent, Baptist Missionary, Baptist National Convention of
America, Baptist National Convention USA Inc., Baptist Primitive,
Baptist Southern, Bible, Bible Missionary, Church of the Brethren,
Buddhist, Calvary Chapel, Catholic, Catholic Eastern, Catholic Roman,
Catholic Ukrainian, Charismatic, Christian, Disciples of Christ,
Christian Reformed, Christian Science, Church of Christ, Church of
God, Church of God Anderson Indiana, Church of God Cleveland
Tennessee, Church of God in Christ, Church of God of Prophesy, Church
of God Oregon Illnois, Church of God Pentecostal, Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saints, Church of the Brethren, Church of the
Nazarene, Community Church, Congregational United Church of Christ,
Divine Science, Eastern Orthodox, Eckankar, Episcopal, Episcopal
American, Episcopal Reformed, Evangelical Covenant, Evangelical Free,
Foursquare Gospel, Free Methodist, Friends, Full Gospel, Gospel,
Holiness, Independent, Independent Fundamental, Independent
Fundamental Churches of America, Interdenominational, Islamic,
Jehovah's Witnesses, Jewish, Lutheran, Lutheran ELCA, Luthern
Evangelical Synod, Luthern Wisconsin Evangelical Synod, Mennonite,
Metaphysical, Methodist, Methodist African Episcopal, Methodist
Christian Episcopal, Methodist Free, Methodist United, Metropolitan
Community, Missionary, Mormon, Moslem, Nazarene, Non-Denominational,
Orthodox Eastern, Pentecostal, Pentecostal Church of God, Pentecostal,
Church of God of America Joplin Missouri, Pentecostal Holiness,
Pentecostal United, Presbyterian, Presbyterian Reformed, Presbyterian
USA, Quaker, Reformed in America, Religious Science, Reorganized
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Science of Mind, Seventh
Day Adventist, Spiritualist, Unification, United Church of Christ,
Unity, and Wesleyan.

The above list represents 99 different beliefs.  I'd like to put one
of each of the ministers into a room for a day.  They could talk until
they were blue in the face but when they depart and go their separate
ways, each will think they have the 'key to the kingdom'.

This list is for Phoenix only.  If someone were to make a list of all
the different religions in this country my buffer would not hold it. 
Then make a list of all of the religions of the world and one would
need a hard drive to hold all the names.

Message: 61154
Author: Harold Darwin  This is me ***
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: last
Date: 09/22/89  Time: 01:28:39

I believe there are two separate atheist organizations in this entire
country.  They have the same doctrine.  Man evolved.  It would be
difficult for an atheist to have a disagreement with another atheist on
this matter. Unlike people who need religion, atheists and agnostics
are not puppet material.  People who need books or persons to tell
them how to think are having their strings pulled.  

Message: 61156
Author: Paul Morgan
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bob T.
Date: 09/22/89  Time: 01:48:30

True,those qualities are not unique to religion.  But religion certainly can
be defined by those qualities -- when it manifests itself in the extreme
form which Mike and others practice.  
For that matter, so can Dianetics, Spiritualism, etc., etc.

Message: 61157
Author: Paul Morgan
Category: Answer!
Subject: Mike Carter
Date: 09/22/89  Time: 01:56:22

If a computer was capable of making an error, no one would refer to it as
perfect, whether or not it actually made any error. If God is capable of
anything, as you say, then he is capable of creating beings with free-will
who do not have the capacity for evil.  Either God is omnipotent, and can do
ANYTHING as you say, or he is not.  Personally, I have doubts about the
validity of the concept of omnipotency.  Can God create a rock too heavy for
himself to lift?  Perhaps you begin to see some of the paradox involved in
the concept of omnipotency.
If a man has the capacity to be evil, then he is not all-good.  He may never
actually DO any evil, but he is still morally flawed.  God must obey the
same dictates of logic.
 
It is not necessary to have evil to enjoy good.  I don't need to be killed
in order to enjoy living.  I don't need to experience unpleasant odors in
order to enjoy pleasant odors.  What you are implying, in fact, is that evil
is a constituent of good, and therefore, evil is good in the sense that it
allows the existence of good.  Surely, you see how inane this is?
 
I think we have reached an impasse in our communication.  That is to say, I
put forward valid, well reasoned arguments, and you ignore or twist them --
anything, in fact, but reply to them.  So indulge yourself to the max in
your next response; I probably won't reply.

Message: 61158
Author: Mike Carter
Category: Answer!
Subject: Last chance
Date: 09/22/89  Time: 03:16:08

(1) God created logic and therefore is not bound by it.
(2) Without knowledge of death, life cannot be defined
(3) Perfect: per.fect 
    (a) To finish or complete, so as to leave nothing wanting.
    (b) Complete in all respects; without defect or omission; sound;
        flawless.
Your pretense: Since God gave beings free will, he is therefore imperfect.
 
My Pretense  : God created an uncontrollable being within a small box
               under controlled conditions. This does'nt make God in any
               way imperfect.
(4) No, I have never implied evil is a consituent of good. You did.
(5) To experience an odor, one must know the difference between what is
    and what isn't an odor..ergo..you cannot experience a nice odor
    without a basis to judge it on. Ever notice how a room or house smells
    different when youfirst walk in?...only to have the sensation fade
    away after a given period of time? Ergo...the measuring stick.
 
True, we have reached an impasse. Your definitions of logic contradict
known physics and physical laws (re-read volts-vs-ground).
You fail to grasp the essence of what God is by attempting to force
human values on him. Your evaluation criteria are too limited to go further
into philosophy and hence your claims that I'm twisting things..you simply
can't grasp them is all. God wont ignore you if you seek him in earnest.

Message: 61159
Author: Mike Carter
Category: Question?
Subject: Harold Darwin
Date: 09/22/89  Time: 03:32:00

"Man evolved". ......into what?
On the basis of evolution..if man evolved...he must be evolving..evolution
states that it is the process of adaptation. Adaptation is the limited
response of an organism to a stimuli. 
Hence, if man evolved, why is he on the fastrack to destruction?
"People who need books or persons to tell them how to think are
having their strings pulled."
My my. I suppose you WROTE the book on Darwinian theory and adaptive
mutation. If the last 15 posts that contain Darwinian propoganda aren't
the result of someone reading and swallowing his story hook line and sinker
then we must have Darwin himself posting to this board.
 
It's the folks who cling to material facts who are pulling their own
strings... those who question religion and criticize are thinkers...
those who question religion and criticize it and find God through it all
are indeed the free of will, independant thinkers who know the truth
and how to go about finding it...they're not the type to stop once
confronted with the incomprehensible and gaffaw and turn their backs.
 
That's why atheists and agnostics will find little to argue about on the
topic of religion. They just pull each others strings to affirm the unknown
and in their ignorance, turn away. The folks who have found God argue
endlessly about interpretation..because each found God in their own
personal way. Amusing at least. Throw away predjudice, search in honesty.

Message: 61160
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Religion
Subject: Mike Carter
Date: 09/22/89  Time: 06:06:50

 For the past few days, we Apollo seems to have been plagued by a few dolts
whose sole pleasure in life seems to be maligning that which they
persistently refuse to understand.
 I have had the urge to jump in and climb aboard the debates, but you have
been doing sich an excellent job of presenting the case for Christianity, I
think I'll just sit back and enjoy. God bless you and yours, Mike. Keep the
faith.

Message: 61161
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bob on taxes
Date: 09/22/89  Time: 06:42:05

Actually, it's our accountant's fault - he told us what we owed and we sent
it. Unfortunately, the IRS did not give any details. -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 61162
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Question?
Subject: Mike
Date: 09/22/89  Time: 06:50:31

You don't believe in Evolution or that mankind is evolving? Just curious.

I too am enjoying you posts. -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 61163
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: JT/Rambling/Gambling
Date: 09/22/89  Time: 06:51:30

So - does that mean you've been to Atlantic City? Please elaborate.
                            -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 61164
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Religion
Subject: Tom Weller
Date: 09/22/89  Time: 08:36:18

        I don't see 99 different beliefs....  But I do see ONE "God" in that
list.  Some do pray a little different, but having free will lets us do
that.  However, from your talks with Mike Carter, I can see that is way over
your head.
        Speaking of the number 99....  How many names are you going to log
in under?  Yes, I see....   But you are the SAME person anyway...right?
So why can't Christians have many names?  I'm Episcopal by the way.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 61165
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Paul Morgan
Date: 09/22/89  Time: 08:50:55

        You are right there, you need not be killed to enjoy living.  But,
the threat of death is there, and you KNOW it... so you don't stand in the
middle of Bell Road during rush hour...  Do you?
        You also don't need to kill a person to feel the evil... you do know
that is there as well...  
        If man was created just to be good and never to be evil...  he would
not have the full spectrum of experiences to choose from.  He would NOT have
true FREE WILL.  His strings would really be pulled then.
        I'm afraid you have things backwards.   I have found Mike Carters
posts to be full of facts that are easily understandable.  Yours on the
other hand, contradict your oun posts, and show a logic that is flawed.
I did have a good laugh reading them however...  You sound a lot like Rod
Williams.  (another funny guy?)

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 61166
Author: Bill Zebub
Category: On the Lighter Side
Subject: Mike Carter
Date: 09/22/89  Time: 15:17:32

Simon says, SNIFF!!

Message: 61168
Author: Bill Zebub
Category: On the Lighter Side
Subject: KUPD this AM
Date: 09/22/89  Time: 15:39:36

KUPD planned to assemble 30 guys at Porky's (2 blocks north of Camelback at
43rd ave.), wearing nothing but red underwear, and forming a human La-Bomba
chain, which would then move along Camelback.    This sounded like just the
sort of lame gag I might enjoy, so I hastened over there, prepared to march
down the street in nothing but red underwear (and possibly shoes).  They had
already given out all the pairs, but it hardly mattered.  With one
exception, everyone was wearing all their clothes, with the underwear on the
outside of their pants.  Even the exception was wearing a T-shirt, and red
bikini style briefs -- not the lacy Fredrick's style thing that KUPD had
given out.  All they did was march them two blocks and bring them back
again.  The whole thing was billed as though it were some sort of wild,
kick-ass adventure, but it was in fact pitiful.  Most disappointing.
There also looked to be considerably less than the "thirty" people the DJs
claimed.

Message: 61169
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: J.T.
Date: 09/22/89  Time: 17:09:07

Re:  "I'm a ramblin', gamblin' man."

Did you win the lottery or something?

Message: 61170
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Darwin
Date: 09/22/89  Time: 17:11:54

Re:  "He didn't go by a book, he wrote one."

That's interesting.  If everyone didn't go by anyone else's book, but
wrote their own, what an interesting world this would be.  Interesting
probably is the *wrong* word here.

Message: 61171
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Tom W
Date: 09/22/89  Time: 17:15:12

Re:  "In Phoenix there are many different faiths."

It would seem from your list that most of the different names are Christian
faiths.  There is a reason for various church buildings being called by
different names.  It would be quite confusing if all Christian churches had
the same name.

Message: 61172
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Darwin
Date: 09/22/89  Time: 17:19:42

Re:  "Unlike people who need religion, atheists and agnostics are not puppet
material."

First of all, I thought you were dead.  Maybe it is one of your ancestors
I'm thinking about.  You know that the real Darwin thought Cheeta was one of
his ancestors.  Hmmmm?

Anyway, atheists only use their belief as a crutch.

Message: 61173
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Paul M.
Date: 09/22/89  Time: 17:24:01

Re:  "when it manifests itself in the extreme form which Mike and others
practice."

Well, I'm sure that Mike and I do have some differences, but I also think we
agree on a whole lot more.  But, I don't find those negative qualities you
listed in my church.  To be sure, my church isn't perfect, but whose is? 
And I'm sure that Mike would say the same about his church.

What point are you trying to make?

Message: 61174
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff
Date: 09/22/89  Time: 17:27:16

Re:  "You sound a lot like Rod Williams.  (another funny guy?)"

Speaking of our resident atheist, where is he anyway?

Message: 61175
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Answer!
Subject: Cliff
Date: 09/22/89  Time: 17:50:24

OK, I'll tell my tale, if you'll give a listen.  I was born lonely, down by
the riverside.  I learned to spin fortune-wheels and throw dice.  I was only
13 when I had to leave home; I knew I couldn't stick around, but had to
roam.

Message: 61176
Author: Mike Carter
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Addendum
Date: 09/22/89  Time: 19:34:25

WHen ADam and EVe lived in the Garden of Eden, they knew nothing of
our references of what we call "Good" and "Evil". All there was
was God and life on Earth. They had no other needs...did not age
they were a flawless creation. The Flaw as it were, was the act of 
temptation from Satan who tempted them to eat of the fruit of knowledge.
The temptation was "To be like God"...only Satan left out the rest.
The Sin..the act of disobedience, was generated by the free will of
Adam when he took a bit of the "apple". Adam then became aware and found
that he was naked and was ashamed. God created a situation of perfect
harmony and free will...the price of which was mans downfall from grace
due to Satan tempting Eve. Satan himself was close to God, then cast
out of grace and heaven for sinning against God..trying to lead a rebellion
of sorts. IN human terms.
Those who claim God created sin miss the point. It isn't the means which
is sinfull, it's the act. A chunk of wwod isn't evil until it's used
in a sinfull manner..like bashing someone's head in. 
Yet the agnostic view doesn't seem to understand this. MOst liberals
don't either..like gun control for instance. Fear of the gun itself
commiting the crime. If it wasn't guns it'd be bow-n-arrows. ALl the
way back to stones. WHere do you draw the line? DO you say an object
of creation is flawed because it can be utilized in evil ways or
do you say the *ACT* of utilization in an evil manner is the cause
for sin? 

SO far, of all the opposing viewpoints have underlined a commmon
"paradox". That is...if God created man, a being capable of
innacuracies and evil..then God himself cannot be perfect. 
This is not true both logically and physically. Besides the issue
of Gods existence, Logic has many forms and is a spin-off of
rational thinking. There is no complete, perfect and undenyable logic.
Logic rests upon convention and perceptions. That which we cannot perceive
but exists (radio waves..as a quick one) exist, but before we found a way
to discover them and apply measurement, no logic could define its
undenyable existence. As humans, we grow in many ways. One of them being
in knowledge. WHat we know comprises of beliefs and interpretations.
From a purist viewpoint, each man and woman have their own set.
Therefore..what is really truth if it differs so greatly amoung men?
From our little standpoint in space, we have comparatively miniscule
knowledge of what goes on about us..albeit what makes everything tick.
To blindly deny and refute is to remain ignorant. 
How silly and pompous of us to declare something doesn't exist without
continually searching to prove instead of searching for reasons to deny.
WHat little time we live here gives us poor chances of learning more
than a few grains. Combined efforts work well. But we should see by now
how little we still know..and how much we can learn by searching.
 
No, man isn't evolving..he's becomming complacent.

To fully return to the "paradox". Gods creations instituted sin.
The sin itself isnt a creation but act(s) and inact(s)/tion(s).
God wanted man to love him. Again, differences of ideology on
free will aside, Love cannot be given without out it.
Write a program on a computer that says at regular intervals;
"I love you". It's worthless to you. It's just doing what you tell it to do.
AHh, but when your wife walks to you unexpectedly and wraps her arms
around you and says; "I love you"...now thats special.
Being omnipotent allows God to do anything, if God elected to be evil,
he would cease to be God. Much like if you elect to kill yourself.
We can try and always fail to understand using human interpretation on
what God must be and what he can/cannot do. Like trying to put a
measuring stick on God. It's like trying to put a measuring stick on
infinity. How many sticks will fit into infinity?
Mans attempts at defining God quantitively are miserable exercises
in futility. God encompasses everything. The philosophy of defining
the whole from the part becomes exponentially in error the smaller
the part and the larger the whole. We can't even find a cure for the
common cold...yet we rely upon conjecture to refute the existance
of the Creator. 
Amazing..and to think I relied soley upon this before I finally decided
to find out for myself if God existed or not. Glad I have my own
mind..and the free will to decide to open the doors to the much feared
unknown.

Message: 61179
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Savage
Date: 09/22/89  Time: 22:52:05

It seems to me that there has just been one big Dolt posting on religion in
the past few days, and that is this Mike Carter guy.

Message: 61180
Author: Joseph Campbell  Note:  This is me ***
Category: Answer!
Subject: You guys
Date: 09/23/89  Time: 01:22:21

 The list of Chruch Headings that were posted only met with, "well they
all have the same God".  Very doubtful.

 Your statement would have some credence if Christians had never been seen
or heard going at each others throats over their taught doctrine.  Having
myself, on many an occasion over the years, heard conversations from
followers of many different sects holding diverse beliefs, belittling all
other faiths as followers of Satan or lost sheep.

 I have, to this day, never heard an agnostic or atheist argue over
doctrine.  I don't believe they can.  They are, in all reality, the
freethinkers of this world.

 The Christian is straddled, not only with economic strings but also with
fear of a superpower who man punish him.  Somehow this reminds me, for some
odd reason, of Simon Says or Hypnotic Suggestion.  Allow me to explain.  A
group of 115 people are sitting in a room.  The Speaker says, "Jesus is the
only way to salvation".  Peer pressure starts working on the group. 
Eighty-five to Ninety percent of the people will accept his words while the
remainder will question the statement.  The speaker quickly recognizes those
who agree with his words and knows that he can use them.  He pulls their
strings as he sees fit.  Since he has the majority on his side the others
are dismissed.  They make poor material for what he has in mind.

Message: 61181
Author: Joseph Campbell
Category: Answer!
Subject: Yes, you!
Date: 09/23/89  Time: 01:23:03

 Each person is good for at least 10 percent of their wages.  (If the
average income of 100 people is $20,000 (modest) per person per year then
$2,000 could be expected from each person on a yearly basis.  $200,000 is
enough to support a nice lifestyle while maintaining the front.)  The
speaker need only carry around a Bible and make such statements as, "Unless
you believe in the son, Jesus, you cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven".  The
sheep who bites the hardest are made into Deacons or given other responsible
posts.  The few who raise a question from time to time are kept in the outer
circle as they have a glimmer of doubt remaining.

 People group together out of fear in order to bolster each others
beliefs.  They are taught to look at other sects, especially those with
funny sounding names, as being lost.  After all, what speaker is willing to
give up $2,000?  And if you lose one of your sheep, more may follow.  You
must make your followers believe that you have the true and the best way to
the kingdom.  Also, planned social events help keep the people content. 
Foreign missionaries are a good way to show that a large cash flow is
needed.  People will usually dig deep into their purse or allow a mortgage
to be put on their home in the name of converting a heathen halfway around
the world. 

Message: 61182
Author: Mary Campbell  This is me ***
Category: Answer!
Subject: You mean me?
Date: 09/23/89  Time: 01:24:17

 The fear of death is the biggest cause of converts to a group seeking
answers to the unanswerable.  This is human nature.  Anyway, all the speaker
is doing is playing Simon Says and giving his sheep Hypnotic Suggestion in
order to maintain his lifestyle and to simply survive.  Just like the rest
of us.

 At best it is a business, at worst a cheap con.  The reason for the
existence of such a large, successful market, is because of the great
demand, just like in drugs.  As long as the demand exists so will religion
and so will drugs or anything else that the majority wants or needs.

More simply put, "As long as fear exists so will ways of alleviating it
and there are but many." - Martha and the Vandellas, 1969-1969

Message: 61183
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Dog
Date: 09/23/89  Time: 02:50:51

Re:  "there has just been one big Dolt posting on religion"

When all your logic fails and falls apart, you could resort to name calling.

Message: 61184
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Campbell
Date: 09/23/89  Time: 02:57:12

Re:  "well they all have the same God"

The word was "most", not all.

Your statement would have some credence if Atheists had never been seen
or heard going at each others throats over their taught doctrine.

I have, to this day, never heard a Christian argue over doctrine.  I don't
believe they can.  They are, in all reality, the freethinkers of this world.

You see, I can tell "whoppers" too.

Message: 61185
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Campbell
Date: 09/23/89  Time: 03:01:03

Re:  "People will usually dig deep into their purse or allow a mortgage to
be put on their home in the name of converting a heathen halfway around the
world."

More than the heathen halfway around the world, I am concerned about the
ones here in the US.  The ones who have heard the truth but reject it.

Message: 61186
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Mary C.
Date: 09/23/89  Time: 03:05:53

Re:  More simply put, "As long as fear exists so will ways of alleviating it
and there are but many."

Are you speaking for or against atheism? 

You sound like maybe like Joe's wife, sister, or mother?

Message: 61187
Author: Ron Harper
Category: Entertainment/Movies
Subject: Black Rain
Date: 09/23/89  Time: 03:46:48

Well, it was decent.  Kind of vague, I know, but I'm not particularly
voluble tonight.  I will make a few observations:
 
Quite a number of "Japanese" buildings looked suspiciously similar to
something from a Blade Runner set.  I put Japanese in quotes because, first,
I have never been to Japan nor am I familiar with its modern architectural
forms and trends, especially in factory settings, and two, I am not sure
which parts were actual buildings and which were mere set fronts.
 
Everything seemed awfully smoggy, or was that foggy?  Well, same question;
real pollution, fog machines, or some combination?
 
The driving range scene was funny.  Actual golf courses are rare in Japan,
and getting access to one (at a country club, of course) costs upwards of a
million dollars or more.  The background of applicants is scrutinised.  Most
Japanese, therefore, settle for multi-tiered driving ranges like the one in
the film.  They tend to take them quite seriously.
 
Overall, the film impressed me as surrealistic in tone.  It is hard to
decide, however, how much of this was inherent in the film, and how much was
due to the relatively sleep deprived state in which I viewed the film.

Message: 61188
Author: Ron Harper
Category: On the Lighter Side
Subject: Mike Carter
Date: 09/23/89  Time: 03:47:26

Snarf!!

Message: 61189
Author: $ James Hawley
Category: Answer!
Subject: Last two
Date: 09/23/89  Time: 05:29:11

Was that deprived or depraved?

Message: 61190
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Religion
Subject: B. Dog
Date: 09/23/89  Time: 06:10:18

 It is, of course, your privelege to think what you will about anyone, just
as it is mine.
 Personally, I think that Mike has said more, and made more sense in his
posts on the subject than all those who are too insecure to even use their
real names have said in all of their collective ramblings.
 I have purposely stayed out of the discussion, for two reasons. First, most
of the users are well aware of my position re: Christianity and the Bible as
the WOrd of God. Secondly, Mike has said everything I would have said, and
has a way of saying it much better than I could, and redundancy rarely does
any good.
 If all you have to turn to in time of trouble is yourself, you are indeed
among the poorest of men. If you think that you have human friends who will
sand by you through thick and thin, you are quite naive. Best of luck.
You'll need it. My Bible says that HE (God) is an ever present help in time
of trouble. He has proven it to me, time and time again throughout my
lifetime.
Tell you what. You take Darwin, (he's dead) and I'll take God, who's alive
and well and coming again. Let's meet again in 1000 years and see how we're
doing. OK?

Message: 61191
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Religion
Subject: Just for Mike Carter
Date: 09/23/89  Time: 06:23:21

"This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of
the flesh.
 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh;
and these are contrary the one to the other; so that ye cannot do the things
that ye would.
 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery,
fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred,
variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings,
murderers, drunkeness, revelings and such like: of the which I tell you
before, as I have told you in time past, that they which do such things
shall not inherit the kingdom of GOd.
 But the fruit of the SPirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness,
goodness, faith. meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and
lusts.
 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." 
Galatians 5:16-25. God bless you.

Message: 61192
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Religious discussion
Date: 09/23/89  Time: 08:16:26

Shut up already!

Message: 61193
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Religion
Subject: Campbell/Superpower
Date: 09/23/89  Time: 09:19:57

        I fear no superpower...  where do you get that crap?   The only one
in fear around here appears to be YOU!
        
        Just how many names are you going to use, before you settle down to
one?  It is hard to get a grip on who we are talking to.   I guess if I were
arguing your view point on God and Christianity, I would be ashamed to use
my real name as well.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

P.S. Your view of Christians from where ever you are looking, is VERY
distorted.

Message: 61194
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Question?
Subject: James Taranto
Date: 09/23/89  Time: 09:31:02

        Hey, while we are at it James (On Religion), Just what are your
beliefs?  Are you a Christian?  Are you an Agnostic?  Are you an Atheist?

        Don't be afraid to answer.....

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 61195
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Religion
Subject: Mike
Date: 09/23/89  Time: 10:07:06

Your discription of Adam & Eve in the Garden is a good one. I have a
question - you said "Adam then because aware and found the he was naked &
was ashamed"! ---- If God made them perfect - they were naked, - why all of
a sudden did he have somehing to be ashamed about? What makes nakedness a
sin, especially if Eve was the only one to see him and she was naked too?
I understand that all of a sudden they knew the difference between good and
evil - but don't understand why something like not having any clothes on is
a great sin. We're born that way as God intended right? Adam & Eve were
perfect without any clothes on, etc. Sounds to me like one of those things
man put in the Bible, not God because he didn't want other men looking upon
his woman! Don't you personally question any of this stuff you read there
in? -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 61196
Author: Matt Clark
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff/names
Date: 09/23/89  Time: 11:20:59

I'm not Campbell, articulate and intelligent though he may be.  You have at
least two people here using multiple pseudonyms.  As I told Mike Carter, the
subject of religion, for time time being, has become jejune as far as I am
concerned.

Message: 61197
Author: Matt Clark
Category: Answer!
Subject: James Hawley
Date: 09/23/89  Time: 11:23:05

Unfortunately, it was deprived.

Message: 61198
Author: $ Robert Knee
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Religion
Date: 09/23/89  Time: 13:54:12

I believed this religious argument was resolved some time ago.  Let us turn
to more edifying subjects.

Message: 61199
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff
Date: 09/23/89  Time: 14:50:20

For the purposes of this discussion, I am a deist.

Message: 61200
Author: $ James Hawley
Category: Answer!
Subject: Psuedonyms
Date: 09/23/89  Time: 15:38:13

The whole problem can be solved if everyone logs in under a different name
every time.  90% of the regular posters on Apollo do it anyway.  People
having two $tatus accounts, $tatus users not even using their passwords. 
It's a wild wild wild world.

Message: 61201
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bob & Paul
Date: 09/23/89  Time: 19:47:05

Don't forget, it was not I who first used 'dolt' in reference to a
participant in the religion discussion.  Also, Bob, I have *not* been a part
of it, so it would be hard for me to 'resort' to name calling.

Praise "Bob" !

Bulletin Board command ( for help):EC

You chose Chit Chat

Subject:last

Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
 1:Yes, praise Bob.
 2:end

Edit command ( for help):S

Saving message...
The message is 61202

Bulletin Board command ( for help):G

Goodbye, Al Perrie
You were on 08:19