Apollo BBS Archive - October 4 - 5, 1989



Mail from Michael Kielsky
Date: 10/03/89  Time: 23:24:50

Are you still in the locksmithing business?  Do you work anywhere near the 
South-East Valley (i.e. Pointe @ South Mountain area)?  If so, give me a
call tomorrow at 869-xxxx (work) or 431-xxxx
7(home).  If my wife is home, just tell her you're a locksmith acquaintance
of mine.  I need 5 locks rekeyd and possible a dead-bolt installed.

Thanks.

Mike
[A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
 1:I'll call.

Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 61392
Author: Michael Kielsky
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: all sorts of stuff
Date: 10/03/89  Time: 22:13:35

RE:  Rally.  Sorry Cliff, I guess I just didn't notice you.  I was trying to
pay attention to what was going on, on the airwaves (I was volunteered to
help out with security, yellow armband and all).  Anyway, the rally went
well and the report in the Republic on Sunday was suprisingly accurate and
even-handed.  Quite a contrast to their coverage of the first rally.

RE:  Bob T.  That was a decent bunch of posts.  I especially liked the part
about "You shall love the Lord with all your heart, with all your soul, and
with all your might."  The ORIGINAL source for that is of course Deuteronomy
Chapter VI, Verse 5.  It is also contained in the most important prayer of
Judaism, the Shema (taken directly from Deuteronomy VI, starting at Verse
4).  And your quote "You shall love your neighbour as yourself" is obviously
the Golden Rule.  It is taken from Leviticus Chapter XIX, Verse 18.  A
famous Rabbi, years before Jesus' time, by the name of Hillel, was once
asked by an unbelieving scoffer to condense all of the teachings of Judaism
while he stood on one foot.  Rabbi Hillel thought for a moment, and
responded "Whatever is hateful unto you, do not do it unto your fellow; this
is the whole Torah, the rest is explanation."  I guess emulation is a
sincere form of flattery.  I say stick with it Bob, you know you're on the
right track!

RE:  God creating evil.  Well, that seems simple.  God created everything,
so God created evil.  Anything less would leave God no longer the Creator.

Message: 61394
Author: Mike Carter
Category: Answer!
Subject: Jeff Beck
Date: 10/04/89  Time: 03:10:41

Sorry about that ol chap, you seem to be spinnning in orbits around
Jupiter... a result of some line noise I was experiencing.
(Cheap 2400 baud modems)
Your definition of malapropism must be different from Websters. Simply
put, the sentence in question ;"Just because you don't know God will not
make the "determination" he doesn't exist."
(1) In context with your random comment, this sentence is perfectly
understandable. It would take less than a 8th grade education to 
understand it. 
(2) There are no -sound alike misused words there.
To understand this simple sentence, one must first have a knowledge of
the word "determination". If anyone was misusing words, it was you in your
original post. A clearer and more concise word in place of it would have
been ;" We have already *considered*..."
As for Neanderthals, you can find them on a variety of AM stations talking
about football and other such sports. This by no means forces me into
a pro or con postion regarding Neanderthals.
As for the D.E.A flogging Neanderthals with football horses, well,
you can lecture the borrowed modem for that, just don't try and lecture
me. I'm laughing too hard anyway.

Message: 61395
Author: Mike Carter
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Polls
Date: 10/04/89  Time: 03:24:43

All of the crew down where I work including myself, all voted
unanimously to vote down the stadium issue.
Looks like it lost by a wide margin.
Speaking of Neanderthals...these guys are a role model for the slot.
On any given work day, if the topic isn't the boss or the wife, it's
sports. Not that I have anything against sports. Not at all. I love
to watch both football and baseball. I was on the State team in
Australia as their pitcher. I like sports. But when the hobby goes
in further than winning strategies, upsets, and both brilliant and
stupid moves, then it becomes Neanderthal talk. By reference, it's
the start of the talk where what I mentioned trails off. 
The volume adjustment on their voices is cranked up so high that they
drown out the water chiller pumps for terminal 3 with various
exclamations about parent-hood and their vast vocabulary of four letter
adjectives that are interjected by more colorful adjectives.
About 20 seconds into Neanderthal talk, fists start to pound the
(insert desk top material here) , the audio output is into the
overdriving stage with clipping and square wave harmonics , tongues
begin to turn blue and the eyes close, the brain stops functioning
but the mouth is going full blast into next Christmas. That's neanderthal
talk. Add beer and you have Cro-magnon.
        -Mike

Message: 61396
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Religion
Subject: Ann/statues
Date: 10/04/89  Time: 05:47:13

 As much as I try to stay out of these merry-go-round debates, I couldn't
resist commenting on your post concerning the worshipping of statues.
 I have occasion quite often to pass St. Louis the King (King of what?) RC
church on 43rd Ave & Missouri. THere is a large statue, I think of Mary,
resident on the front lawn, and many times I have seen people bowing before
that statue, genuflecting before that statue and, it is assumed, praying to
that statue. If that isn't idol worship, I never saw any better example.
 If, as the Bible clearly states, the follower of Christ has the indwelling
Holy Spirit in residence, I fail to see the need for all the statues, beads,
meaningless words learned by rote memory, etc. If we can talk to the real
thing, why settle for less, especially stone, cement and/or jewelry?

Message: 61397
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann/games
Date: 10/04/89  Time: 05:51:35

 WEll, thanks to the wisdom of the Phoenix voters, we won't have to worry
about subsidizing major league baseball in Phoenix! Prop 1 went into the
trash basket yesterday, just where it belonged!
 Hockey is an excellent spectator event for those who enjoy blood sports,
but it has failed twice in Phoenix in the past, and I would be surprised if
the current attempt went anywhere. We are still a city who will not support
a loser, and a championship team is highly unlikely considering the
competition.

Message: 61398
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Politics
Subject: Election results
Date: 10/04/89  Time: 06:03:40

 For the most part, my confidence in the wisdom of the voters of Phoenix has
been bolstered.
 Prop 1 is trashed (Hallelujah!), 106 went down, as it should have, and 200
passed by a wide margin. The mayor and council will have to settle for all
they can steal, since we won't be doubling their salaries any time soon.
 It seems as though the props concerning monies for purchase and restoration
of historic places passed, but what the heck. We can't win them all. I still
think such things should be privately funded.
 As to the mayoral race (?), I don't like Goddard, but he was pretty much a
given, considering his competition was one man who is still covered with
Mecham mud and another who probably has trouble walking and chewing gum at
the same time, at least in the political arena. Oh well, at least Terrible
Terry can't throw too much of our money away without asking.
All in all, a good election.

Message: 61399
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Religion
Subject: Bob/kneeling
Date: 10/04/89  Time: 07:25:33

What would you think of the very same people if they were kneeling in front
of a statue of Jesus and praying? Idol worship? Hardly! Many people talk to
their dead loved ones too, but that isn't idol worship either. They just
believe those that have crossed over can hear them. Catholics revere Mary
because she was the mother of God. Why not? That makes her pretty special
doesn't it? Maybe she does have the power to intervene for you. Who knows?
Prove she doesn't! That's the way it is with religions - each other think
the other is wrong. But who's right? You can't prove the Catholics are wrong
anymore than they can prove you wrong - or the Baptists, Mormons,
Lutherans, etc. Also remember, ALL of these religions SAY they got their
belief's from the Bible and can open it and find what the want to prove it.
                              -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 61400
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Religion
Subject: Bob/religions
Date: 10/04/89  Time: 07:28:33

I will get the Encyclopaedia out and find out the info on the first church.
I don't think Peter was made Pope during his life time. Ha. That IS
Catholic! But they claim to be the first church. It's funny, when I joined
the Lutherans, they also claimed the same thing. -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 61401
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Religion
Subject: Paul/statues
Date: 10/04/89  Time: 07:36:37

I too do not see any need for other people to pray too. At one time I did
and it was VERY comforting though. If I was ill or asking for something, it
made me feel pretty safe to have a bunch rallying for me in my name. Of
course, I always talked to God first. Of all the things about the Catholic
church I like the most - would absolutely be the MOST comforting is the
'Last Rites'. -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 61402
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Paul/Hockey
Date: 10/04/89  Time: 07:41:31

I know it has failed in Phoenix and never understood why. It would seem the
perfect spot - it's hot and nothing would be more pleasant than to go to an
ice rink. It's fast paced and exciting.
I do not think it is anymore of a 'blood' sport than football is! With
hockey, it's illegal - with football, it isn't! -=*) ANN (*=-
P.S. But I'm glad to know that this sort of thing like the stadium has been
put to the vote of the people. I'd like to see us voting on more things than
letting our politicians decide what is good and bad for us.

Message: 61403
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Vote
Subject: In today's paper
Date: 10/04/89  Time: 07:44:15

I scanned the paper but couldn't tell if Skip Rimsza won or not. They had a
check by his name that depicted the winner, yet they had one by the
incumbents name too. It was close, but Skip was clearly ahead.
                      -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 61404
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rod/RRC
Date: 10/04/89  Time: 10:09:33

Re:  "The Roman Catholic church is the largest and oldest church within
Christianity."

Thanks for the info Rod.  Did it say anything about when the Catholic Church
was first founded?  I know the Catholics claim Peter founded it, or
something like that, but I remember reading somewhere once that it was
really founded 4 or 5 hundred years after Peter.  I have a friend who is a
historian with a penchant for this sort of thing.  I' check with him and let
you know what he says.

Message: 61405
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Michael
Date: 10/04/89  Time: 10:12:37

Thanks for the kind words!

Message: 61406
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Paul
Date: 10/04/89  Time: 10:15:53

Re:  "statue, I think of Mary, resident on the front lawn"

I drive down 43rd quite often and have seen the very same thing.

Message: 61407
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann
Date: 10/04/89  Time: 10:19:48

I want to reply to your post 61399 off line and upload it.  My reply would
take up too much time on line.

Stay tuned to this same station for another exciting chapter in the life and
times of the RRC!

Message: 61408
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann
Date: 10/04/89  Time: 10:25:09

Re:  "I do not think it is anymore of a 'blood' sport than football"

Well, if a football player should beat another player over the head with the
football, not much blood would be shed as compared to a hockey player
beating another player over the head with a hockey stick.

If I had to choose between a football and a hockey stick to be beat with, I
would choose the football.

Why anyone would want to beat me with a football is beyond me?

Rod might want to beat me with my Bible?  Hmmmmm.

Message: 61409
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Religion
Subject: Bob
Date: 10/04/89  Time: 12:27:05

Re: the origin of Catholic - here is what (some) my encyclopedia says ....
 
"CATHOLIC CHURCH (Gr.,=universal),the body of Christians, living and dead,
considered as an organization. It is common for Christian groups to identify
their particular churches (exclusively or not) as the Catholic Church. The
word Catholic was first used c.110 to describe the church by St. Ignatius of
Antoich. In speaking of the time before the Reformation, Catholic is
technically used to mean orthodox. (i.e. those excepting the degrees of
Leo 1 and the council of Chalcedon). Today in English it usually means the
Roman Catholic Church. Protestants use the words in their original sense to
designate the Christian Church taken as a whole."
 
"ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH: Roman Catholic is a 19th century coinage and merely
serves to distinguish the Church from other churches that are Catholic."
 
"Roman Catholics may be simply defined as Christians in communion with the
Pope. To belong to the Church one must accept as factually true the gospel
of Christ as handed down by the Popes." (me - that is why they consider
Peter the first Pope and abide by what he has written.)
 
"CHRISTIANITY: Among religions, Christianity is unusual in it's penchant for
organization. Christian groups, or churches are of two types - traditional,
having an unbroken tradition since ancient times, and reformed, aiming to
restore a primitive state of Christianity. Of the first type, are the two
largest churches, the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Eastern as well as the
Armenian Church. Most of the reformed churches originated in Western
Christendom. (see Protestantism)". (me .. the above tells me that the
original church was Called Catholic - then the Roman Catholic and then the
branches came into being - one of which you probably belong. When I was a
Lutheran, they stressed the point that they are Catholics - having gone back
to the original faith before the Roman Catholics took over.)
 
From WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY: "CATHOLIC: Universal, general, all-inclusive. Of
the Universal Christian Church; of the Christian Church as a whole. One who
accepts the creeds received in common by all sects of the universal
Christian Church. CATHOLICISM: The system of doctrine, discipline and
worship held in common by all denominations of the universal Christian
Church. (me - note no mention of Roman Catholic!)
 
I could not find who the second Pope was - it would certainly be interesting
to found out. My encyclopedia is small. My point is - you are a Catholic
whether you know it or not. (grin!) So, what statue are you going to pray
to?                  -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 61411
Author: Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: malapropisms
Date: 10/04/89  Time: 15:28:21

Spinning in orbits around Jupiter?
 
A malapropism is any rediculous misuse of words, not necessarily one which
involves a confusion between similar sounding words.
 
I must admit, however, that you have a point about Neanderthals and AM
sports discussions.

Message: 61412
Author: Steve Cochoran  ***THIS WAS ME
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Lawyers
Date: 10/04/89  Time: 21:32:08

Dear Reader,

        Two out of every three lawyers in the world live and work in the
United States.

Message: 61413
Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: statues
Date: 10/05/89  Time: 03:06:54

The statues are merely symbolic. When a Catholic prays while near a statue,
he is praying to the entity, not a hunk of marble.

Message: 61414
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Religion
Subject: Ann
Date: 10/05/89  Time: 06:26:47

 In response to a couple of psts from you to Bob (even though he is doing a
great job of holding his own), you continue to defend the practice of
praying in an attitude of worship before statues. Let me just say that yes,
if I saw someone praying to a statue of Jesus, I would consider it idolatry,
simply for the reason that if they need a piece of stone or cement to put
them into an attitude of prayer and/or worship, then the statue is the
object of their worship, and not the Christ who loved them enough to die for
them, and to defeat death, the final enemy of sinful man, by his
resurrection.  You also refer to Mary as the mother of God, which is
strictly a Roman Catholic error, totally unsupportable by any stretch of
Scripture. Mary was a willing vessel, an obedient servant, who was kept pure
by God for a specific purpose, since the redeemer of mankind had to be pure
and spotless from birth, and unstained by sin of any kind. The purpose of
this, and it is very plainly readable in the Bible, was to fulfill
completely the ancient Hebrew laws concerning sacrifice. The string that led
from Moses to Jesus began with the sacrifice of a lamb without spot or
blemish for each sin of every individual in the nation of Israel, and went
from there to the sacrifice of a lamb for a household, a lamb for a house
for a year, a lamb for the sins of the nation for a year, and then, finallym
the perfect sacrifice, the perfect lamb of God, spotless from the foundation
of the world, the one sacrifice for all the sins of mankind, past, present
and future, forever. Somewhere in that great, overall plan of God, Mary fit,
in a very important, but very small way. Certainly not Mother of God/Queen
of h

Message: 61415
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann/blood sports
Date: 10/05/89  Time: 06:29:03

 I have never seen football players go for the jugular on such a regular
basis as the hockey players do at every game. The violence in hockey seeme
to ba an inherent part of the game, whereas in football it is secondary to
moving the ball towards a score. Quite a difference, it seems to me.

Message: 61416
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Politics
Subject: Rimza
Date: 10/05/89  Time: 06:30:31

 Skip Rimza will have to run in yet another, runoff election with the
incumbent, since a majority (more than 50%) of the vote is required, and
neither candidate got one. The runoff will probably be sometime next month.

Message: 61417
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Religion
Subject: Ann/Lutheranism
Date: 10/05/89  Time: 06:37:20

 In an earlier post, you claimed that the Lutheran church of your youth
claimed to be the first church.
 I doubt that you clearly understood something you were told there, since I
was born and raised in the Lutheran church, and was confirmed after 2 years
of confirmation school, in which I was taught all of the precepts, concepts
and organization of the Lutheran church. The Lutheran church came into being
only AFTER Martin Luther posted the papers now known as his 95 theses on the
church door at Wittenburg, Germany. Afte this, he left the Roman church,
where he had been a monk. The church that bears his name was founded some
time after that, and thus would have no claim to being the oldest church.
 Neither, for that matter, does the Roman church have any right to that
claim, since it had it's beginnings several hundred years after the death
and resurrection of Christ, and after many churches had been founded in just
about all parts of the then known world.

Message: 61418
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Religion
Subject: Paul/statues
Date: 10/05/89  Time: 07:24:46

If someone were praying to Jesus in front of His statue, I doubt He would be
as critical as you are!
I think Mary is the Mother of God and I don't think she is the Queen of
Heaven. -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 61419
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Paul/football
Date: 10/05/89  Time: 07:31:58

Gads man! The intire game is nothing but rough play! The point is to
multilate your opponent(s) as best you can. I.E. where it takes one man to
pull one man down - ten will pile on top of him after he's down! I think
it's a sport that was created so that man can go back to his primaevel ways
which is violence and get paid for it! 
Lets face it - the fans like rough play - fights! Wrestling is one of my
favorites. Ha. I didn't say I didn't like blood sports! Baseball IS my
favorite and there are few fights - but when there is, I love it!
Do you remember the old Roller Derby? Talk about blood sports!
                         -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 61420
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Religion
Subject: Paul/Lutheran
Date: 10/05/89  Time: 07:40:26

When the Lutherans told me they were the first church, they meant they went
back to the teachings of! I belonged to the Missouri Synod Lutherans.
Why do you assume I didn't understand? I belonged to that church for four
years - went to Bible study three times a week and taugh Sunday school. I
find when I don't agree with you, you label me as 'not understanding'!
Re: no one has the right to claim they they are the oldest church. (their
teachings) .... what then, WAS the first church? You are quick to condemn,
but slow to explain. -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 61421
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: News Today
Subject: In today's paper
Date: 10/05/89  Time: 07:53:19

For all of you that believe in the Bible word for word - here is a little
tidbit ---- "New genetic evidence has strengthened the claim that all people
alive today are decended from one African woman and suggest that the woman
lived 140,000 years ago"! Doesn't that put a little kink in the belief that
man was made by God first and then Eve? Kind of like the old question, 'what
comes first, the chicken or the egg'?

Something else I found out that surprised me and I found it in all places
in the Dear Abby column ....  seems there is only 250,000 case of Aids world
wide! Considering the world population, that is a drop in the bucket! From
the news media's stand point, it is a fast growing epidemic that subtlly
suggests that it will wipe mankind off the face of the earth eventually. I
bet more people world wide gets polio more than they do Aids. 

Sad news - the wonderful race horse Secretariat had to be put to sleep at 19
because of a painful hoof disease. He won the Triple Crown in 1973. I think
he was the last to do so. I'm not sure on that though. Anyone know?
                           -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 61422
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Religion
Subject: Churches
Date: 10/05/89  Time: 10:41:46

        Don't take this wrong...  But I as a rule, do NOT like Churches!
They are buildings.... The Catholics have the most expensive churches even
in poor communities.  Church buildings seem to be a business and are a form
of Idol worship to me.   All one really needs is the Bible....  and maybe a
simple place to meet with others to pray together
        Some small communities are bled dry to errect a fancy building...
I find something very wrong with that!
        
        I grew up in Fall River, Massachusetts... Catholics EVERYWHERE!
They pray to charms, statues, pictures on the wall.....and here in Arizona,
they even will pray to a Yucca Branch!
        
        Now the exception:  I have been to some very plain Churches. 
Nothing more than a room with chairs or benches to sit on.  We would talk
about the Bible...and what it ment to us.  We were not made to feel guilty
about the need to fill the offering plate when it was passed around. 

        To undersatnd the Bible and accept Jesus into your heart is all one
needs.  To me, that is a CHRISTIAN!

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 61429
Author: Boris Blank
Category: Tales & Tall Stories
Subject: an exercise
Date: 10/05/89  Time: 16:23:06

     Herbert's art gallery was not in a good section of town.  Herbert had
always wanted his own gallery, even if it wasn't more than a storefront. 
"The more industrial, the better," he'd say.  "It's not supposed to make you
feel right at home; it's supposed to make people think."  He found just the
spot, downtown, two buildings down from a homeless shelter.  Gallery Zero.
Bums slept in nearby doorways, in full view of all the aesthetically correct
people who came in for their fix of subculture.
     Though not a confessed art lover, Hector often came to the gallery.  He
enjoyed being among artistic, intelligent people, even if they were only
just playing at being artistic and intelligent.
      Hector didn't mind the transients.  He didn't mind them coming  up to
ask him for money on his way out to the van.  He liked the feeling it gave
him to help someone otherwise helpless.  And he liked to get a little
theistic reaction out of a bum before giving him some money.
     One night, after a loud, abstract show at Gallery Zero, Hector was on
his way out of the gallery, and was feeling pretty high.  A bum saw Hector
getting out the keys to his van and approached.
     "Do you got some money you can give me, man?"
     "Do you believe in God?," Hector asked, with a cocky voice and
devilment in his eyes.
     "Huh?  What...yeah, course I believe in God.  So can you spare some
change?"
     "I'll tell you what.  I'll give you some money.  But you have to do
something first."

     The bleary-eyed bum was getting angry.  "Oh, man.  What...what do you
want?"
     "I want you to say, 'God eats sh*t.'  Then I'll give you some money."
     The bum's eyes widened.  "WHAT?!  Why should I!  No way, no way will I
say that kinda sh*t about God!"
     Hector smiled, shrugged his shoulders and said, "Okay, okay, forget it
then," and started to walk towards the van.
     The bum followed him.  "C'mon, man, don't do this."
     "Those are the rules," Hector said.  "Sorry."
     "Wait...wait."  The bum stood silently for a moment, his eyes closed. 
He sighed.  "Okay, hold on."  He opened his eyes.  "God...eats...sh*t."
     Hector smiled.  "That's better."  He put his hand in his pocket.
     Normally, after a hard day of fixing clocks (for Hector was a
clocksmith), Hector had a buck or two of change in his pockets.  Today was
different.  Hector had only twelve cents - two nickels, two pennies.  He
dropped the twelve cents, along with a little pocket fluff, into the ashamed
bum's outstretched hand.  Hector made ready to make a fast break to the van.
 The bum didn't look at the change until he had already turned around and
started to walk away.  But then he stopped and stared into the gleaming,
useless little coins that had bought insults to God.  "Son of a B*TCH!"
     "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, man!"  Hector started to run.  The bum was
faster.  He almost had the van door open but the bum shoved Hector's face
into the side mirror.  The first thing Hector noticed was the taste of hot
blood.

     Hector was on the asphalt, curling up into a fetal position, all the
while writhing like a snake that had been caught.  The bum was kicking him
in his ribs.  All Hector could do was say, "No...no..."
     "YOU eat sh*t!  YOU eat sh*t!," the bum cried, to the beat of his sharp
kicks.
     Like a messenger from heaven, a police car on patrol pulled up,
flashing lights.  In time to save Hector's life.

Message: 61433
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Answer!
Subject: Bob/Catholics
Date: 10/05/89  Time: 16:54:54

The Catholics of Rome do claim that Peter was the founder.  It is said that
Peter is buried on Vatican Hill.  However no hard proof exists.  It is most
probably something that will never be known by humans.

I believe that Catholic Church of Rome came into existence around 100 A.D. 
This is also around the time, give or take twenty years, when the scriptures
were written.

Do you believe that a person who goes all through life, never being baptised
or accepting that J.C. was the son of God, can enter heaven?

Message: 61434
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Answer!
Subject: Beat over head.
Date: 10/05/89  Time: 16:57:07

        The only bible I would beat over your head would have to be the new,
Nerf (R) bible.  It looks like a real bible but is used to sit on and make
the pews more comfortable during long boring sermons.  -Rod

Message: 61435
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Boris Blank
Date: 10/05/89  Time: 17:00:00

Interesting story.  Is it true?

Message: 61436
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Alters
Date: 10/05/89  Time: 17:01:20

Well, I have this alter that is made up of dollar bills.  I just sit and
pray to the god of money.  And you know......it works.


Message: 61437
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann
Date: 10/05/89  Time: 17:35:22

Re:  "My point is - you are a Catholic whether you know it or not. (grin!)
So, what statue are you going to pray to?"

Well, according to the definition, I'm a Catholic!  Ha!  But, I'm not a
Roman Catholic!  BTY, the following 3 messages are in answer to your post of
yesterday.

Message: 61438
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann
Date: 10/05/89  Time: 17:42:29

Re:  "What would you think of the very same people if they were kneeling in
front of a statue of Jesus and praying? Idol worship?"

Yes!  According to the Bible it is.  Listen to Exodus 20:4-5

(NIV)  "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in
heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.  You shall not
bow down to them or worship them; - - -"

These verses are part of the 10 commandments.  To bow down to, or worship
anything, idol, statue, etc. is wrong according to the Bible.

Re:  "Catholics revere Mary because she was the mother of God."

Mary *is* the mother of Jesus in his humanity; she is definitely not the
mother of God.

Re:  "Maybe she does have the power to intervene for you. Who knows?  Prove
she doesn't!

She doesn't!  The Bible says so.  

1 Timothy 2:5  (NIV)   For there is one God and one mediator between God and
men, the man Christ Jesus,  

How can Mary be a mediator when the Bible says there is only one?

Re:  "That's the way it is with religions - each other think the other is
wrong. But who's right? You can't prove the Catholics are wrong anymore than
they can prove you wrong - or the Baptists, Mormons, Lutherans, etc.

There are some things the Bible doesn't address, and I suppose anyone can
guess what might be true or false in those cases.  But many denominations
pass their guesses off as fact.

But most of the time the Bible clearly tells us what is fact, and what is
fiction.  So when people tell me, "Mary will be your mediator to God."  I
know it is false.  And when the same group of people keep telling me "facts"
that don't agree with the Bible, I get sceptical about anything they tell
me.

Re:  "ALL of these religions SAY they got their belief's from the Bible and
can open it and find what the want to prove it."

Ok, since Mary (bless her heart) is the main topic here, show me in the
Bible where it says we are suppose to pray to her?  You can't!  It's not in
the Bible!

It's time to separate fact from fiction, and the Bible (if you accept it as
the word of God) is the only standard God has given us.  If you reject the
Bible as God word, it's all moot anyway.

Message: 61441
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rod
Date: 10/05/89  Time: 17:48:41

Re:  "Do you believe that a person who goes all through life, never being
baptised or accepting that J.C. was the son of God, can enter heaven?"

There could be a lot of conditions here so I'D must provide a general answer
to your general question.

If a man goes through his whole life  and continually reject Jesus Christ as
lord, he will not go to heaven.

If by baptism you mean water baptism, water baptism has nothing to do with
going to heaven.

Message: 61442
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: News Today
Subject: Guilty on all counts
Date: 10/05/89  Time: 19:24:32

        Baker is found GUILTY on all count....  GREAT!  I hope they give him
the max sentence.  (one hundred some odd years)  And for stealing money form
those who can't afford it...  I hope he does not go to Heaven this time
around.   Frauds like that give GOOD Christians a bad name.

        *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 61443
Author: Mike Carter
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bob Thornburg
Date: 10/05/89  Time: 19:56:36

Excellent answers. Let the bible speak for itself.
Let not the words of wisdom be spoken into the ears of the foolish,
for they will despise you for it.
Good posts. 

Message: 61444
Author: Mike Carter
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Lawyers in the U.S.
Date: 10/05/89  Time: 20:04:22

RE: "Two out of every three lawyers in the world live and work in the U.S."
 
...along that same thread...
 
did you know that 3 out of every 5 criminals in the world are free and
wandering around in the U.S. ??
(hmmm)

Message: 61445
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Oudin
Date: 10/05/89  Time: 20:10:42

The object of football is not to mutilate your opponents, but rather to run
the ball into their end zone.

Message: 61446
Author: Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Rod
Date: 10/05/89  Time: 21:14:34

Assuming your question wasn't rhetorical (it may well have been), it seems
obvious enough, from the omniscient narrator, from the dramatic (some might
argue melodramatic...well, let's just come out and say it...overwrought)
embellishments, etc., that it is not true.  It appears to be a morality
tale, whose message is "mess with God and something bad will happen to you."
 

Message: 61447
Author: Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Skip Rimza
Date: 10/05/89  Time: 21:18:32

Sounds like a Martin Short character...a weasely, two-bit, petty-thief.
On that basis, I urge responsible individuals everywhere to oppose him.

Message: 61449
Author: Jeff Beck
Category: Religion
Subject: Nick/statues
Date: 10/05/89  Time: 21:39:31

Why pray "to", a statue if it is purely symbolic?  Why face the statue,
kneel in front of the statue, if one is not, at least to some degree,
directing one's thoughts and feelings toward the statue?  I realise that
Catholics don't see statues as the actual embodiment of the entity they are
praying to, but clearly it is felt that the statue is endowed with some sort
of spiritual essence...or perhaps it represents some spiritual link to the
entity in question...as though this entity was aware of all the statues of
itself and sort of looking down at them all to see who might be praying at
them. All of this seems incredibly psychotic.  Mind you, I'm not singling
out Catholics, or for that matter Christians, or even religious people.  It
just seems typical of a race of beings who are, to one degree or another,
quite insane.  Of course, what would you expect when you take the nervous
system and lower brain functions of an animal and "graft" on brain
structures capable of analytical thought, but largely subserviant to the
lower systems?  Exactly what you see...a lot of creatures responding to
their base motivations with a process of rationalisation. A network of
beliefs and assumptions designed to give legitamacy and rational meaning to
their primitive impulses and responses to the world.

Message: 61450
Author: Michael Kielsky
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Heaven/Hell
Date: 10/05/89  Time: 23:06:39

I doubt that God would be so petty as to banish those who merely disbelieve
J.C.'s divinity, to an eternal life in hell.  Actually, I kindof doubt the
existence of heaven or hell.

And I have always been confused as to exactly how one can reconcile belief
in a deistic trinity with a claim to monotheism?  Isn't that actually
incompatible?

Note:  These are honest questions, not really criticisms.  Any well-thought
out answers will be read and mentally digested.

Michael "I'm the NRA" Kielsky

Message: 61451
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Question?
Subject: Bob/J.C.
Date: 10/06/89  Time: 01:34:18

What if a Jewish person, one who was taught the Torah, rejected J.C. for his
entire life, would he not enter heaven?

Or what if a Christian who was REALLY a dork tried to convert a friend but
instead really turned that person off.  Consequently that person went his
whole life believing that Christians were just a bunch of dorks.  You know,
Bob, it appears that the Christian God does not lend any help to those who
and trying to win converts to Him.  In fact, there are now more agnostics
& atheists on this planet than ever before in history.  Thanks to science.

And do you believe that the Christian God helped out this, a Christian
Nation, in the Viet Namn conflict?  After all, we Americans were fighting
Communists.  What think ye?  -Rod

Message: 61452
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Kielsky/Heaven-Hell
Date: 10/06/89  Time: 01:46:06

I agree with your post.  I also do not believe there exists a 'magic fairly
land' where all good people go, nor do I believe that all bad people go to a
torture chamber.  It's just too melodramatic.

For instance, what if an individual just squeaked by, was just good enough
to make it to heaven, but was not REAL REAL good?  Would that person get the
same heavenly reward as a great, good person?

Or if someone was just bad enough to get into hell, just barely kept from
heaven.  Would that person get the same punishment as a REAL bad person?

And, mind you, according to the story, this reward/punishment is no less
than forever, as if it can be conceived by anyone.  No....there are much
more enlightening books in print and the bible is nothing I would want to
spend my life trying to understand.  Why bother.  It is too bad that all
those living trees had to be killed in order to print all that nonsense.
                                        Rod

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