Apollo BBS Archive - October 1989

Apollo BBS Archive - October 2 - 3, 1989



Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 61348
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Religion
Subject: Thornburg
Date: 10/01/89  Time: 22:10:37

It doesn't say unborn babies are going to heaven. In fact, it says they
won't.  Is 'perish' equivalent to 'hell' to you?  If not, what does one have
to do to go to hell instead of 'perish' as John says?

Message: 61349
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: More Thornburg
Date: 10/01/89  Time: 22:11:55

Gee, I guess this time it is *you* who is putting limits on God's power.

*Of course* he could create people with free will who would never choose
evil.  What's wrong with your thinking?  Ever met a goody-two-shoes?

Message: 61350
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Baptist gunfights!
Date: 10/01/89  Time: 22:12:37

I just heard on the news that a deacon in a Baptist church shot two others
(dead?) with a handgun.  Good thing it wasn't an assault rifle.

Message: 61351
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Chit Chat
Subject:  Farts SIG
Date: 10/01/89  Time: 22:13:39

Phew!  I'm glad I don't qualify.  Please, Cliff, next year make it for those
over 36, and in '91 for those over 37 ...

Message: 61352
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Politics
Subject: Cliff
Date: 10/02/89  Time: 06:16:48

 You're right Cliff. I have found nothing to like about Evan Mecham. He has
cost the people of this state more money for nothing delivered than any
other single individual ever has, and STILL doesn't know when he's beat.
 If we were to adopt some of his "don't spend until you've got the money"
plans, ASU west would still be a vacant field, as well as some other
projects that have been built on a lease-purchase agreement, and when and if
the state ever did get around to building them, they would cost 3-4 times as
much as they are costing us.
 104 & 105. I don't have my booklet with me, but if those are the props
dealing with the state retirement funds, they are the only props that
benefit at least some of the little people, and are worthy of a yes vote. If
they are the ones dealing with the purchase and preservation of historic and
other sites, it is another case of the government digging yet deeper into
our pockets for money that should come from private interests. If you (and I
use the generic "you") want to restore and preserve a 100 year old building,
that's great. Go for it! Just don't do it with my money, because frankly, I
couldn't care less about so-called "heritage". Besides, one of the buildings
that is on the list for restoration just happens to be Terry Goddard's home.
(Cute, eh?)

Message: 61353
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Beck on Johnson
Date: 10/02/89  Time: 06:19:10

 I think I would call your hitchiker a liar, since Paul Johnson is only in
his very early thirties at the most, and would be too young to have a son in
that age group.

Message: 61354
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bob/praying
Date: 10/02/89  Time: 09:24:04

Catholics do not pray to dead people. They pray to people they fully believe
are in Heaven and close to God and Jesus - to ask their help - to be an
intermediate between them and God. Oh yes, they pray to God too, but lets
face it, we need all the help we can get! Ha. -=*) ANN (*=-
P.S. I do not know what 'Letters of indulgence' means - forgot. Clue me in.
Purgatory is just a stopping off place to work off those venial sins so you
can be pure to go to Heaven.

Message: 61355
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bob/Rod
Date: 10/02/89  Time: 09:26:48

Rod is right Bob - the Bible did come from the Catholics of ages past. In
fact, they were the ONLY religion for centuries. Wouldn't you indeed then
say that they are the only true religion and all of the rest of you are
worshiping at the wrong alter? Heh heh. -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 61357
Author: Evilest Indulgence
Category: Politics
Subject: MLK day
Date: 10/02/89  Time: 11:18:23

Do you think that the people of the state should get to vote on whether
there should be a MLK holiday?

Message: 61358
Author: Evilest Indulgence
Category: Sex & Love
Subject: Homosexuals
Date: 10/02/89  Time: 11:21:12

Why is American society so intolerant?

Message: 61359
Author: $ Gary Jones
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: last
Date: 10/02/89  Time: 12:30:18

Why not?

Message: 61360
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rod/Bible
Date: 10/02/89  Time: 12:41:59

Re:  "The Bible that you use came from the Catholics of ages past."

Where did you hear that?  The Bible I use has nothing to do the the group
called the Roman Catholic Church.  Actually I use a number of different
translations in my studies, but mainly the NAS & the NIV.

Message: 61361
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Dog
Date: 10/02/89  Time: 12:54:39

Re:  "In fact, it says they won't.  Is 'perish' equivalent to 'hell' to
you?"

John 3:16 says that unborn babies won't go to heaven??

I don't think we are communicating here.  I guess that I could agree that
"perish" is more or less equivalent to "hell".  What I'm afraid of here is
that you will somehow twist this around to say something I didn't mean.  I
can perceive an attitude in you that is hostile toward God and Christianity
as you understand it, which is sure different than I understand it.  I think
your purpose here is to ridicule and harass.  This is not a general
discussion between people who could each learn from the other as it should
be.  As long as you insist that God says that all unborn babies go to hell,
you are beyond any help I can give.  

Message: 61362
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Dag
Date: 10/02/89  Time: 12:59:58

Re:  "What's wrong with your thinking?"

Since you disagree with me, I'm sure you think my thinking all screwed up.
I'm not perfect, but I don't see a problem with my logic or thinking.  Maybe
you could rephrase your questions.  Sometimes I do have a problem when
people talk to me in a condescending manner.  

Re:  "Ever met a goody-two-shoes?"

Probably.

Re:  "it is *you* who is putting limits on God's power."

In what way?

Message: 61363
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Dog
Date: 10/02/89  Time: 13:06:29

Re:  "a deacon in a Baptist church shot two others
(dead?) with a handgun"

If you are evaluating or judging God by the actions of people who are
obviously unbalanced, I can see why you might hate him.  But is that
logical?  Would you evaluate or judge the leader of a country in the same
way because some of his citizens are wicked?  Would you think it fair if
someone judged you in the same way if some of your progenies turned out to
be wicked?

Message: 61364
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann
Date: 10/02/89  Time: 13:10:05

Re:  "Catholics do not pray to dead people."

Spoken like a true Catholic Ann!  Catholics also deny worshiping statues of
Mary, etc. (idols).

But even though I disagree with the RRC, I do not want to get started on
this.  I doubt if it would lead to any good.

Message: 61365
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann
Date: 10/02/89  Time: 13:11:17

Re:  "the Bible did come from the Catholics of ages past. In
fact, they were the ONLY religion for centuries."

Where do you guys get this stuff??

I disagree on both statements!

Message: 61366
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Dog? Hostile??
Date: 10/02/89  Time: 13:27:01

        I have never know this mild mannered dog to ever growl so much
before.  I don't know what has come over him since on all previous occasions
he has been what I would call a friendly licker that never bites.  Maybe
B-Dog has caught rabies or something.  In person he is a wagger.... or was
that juggler?  No matter...same thing!

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 61367
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Answer!
Subject: Dog
Date: 10/02/89  Time: 15:54:53

I have decided to make some statements concerning salvation because of the
religious chit chat that has been going on lately.  My purpose is to clarify
what I believe and what I think the Bible says.  I am not an expert on the
Bible, and I have had no formal schooling, but I have read the Bible cover
to cover a number of times and have studied it for years.  There are a lot
of things the Bible does not say.  Many situations are not even addressed. 
In these cases I make an evaluation based on the context of similar subjects
and the character of God.  Some of my beliefs may seem unorthodox, because
they are based on what the Bible says and not on what religious
organizations say.  These statements are very condensed and simplified; it
is hard to cover all the Bible says on salvation in a few short posts.  All
quotes are from the NIV Bible.

John 5:24  "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who
sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from
death to life."

I think these verses tells us that anyone who hears and believes the gospel
(good news) will not go to hell but will go to heaven.

John 3:16-18  "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.  For
God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save
the world through him.  Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but
whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not
believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

Again, if we believe the gospel, we will go to heaven.  If you refuse to
believe, you are condemned and will go to hell.

Acts 16:30  "He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be
saved?"  They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be
saved--you and your household."  

The principle applies to everyone.  Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you
will go to heaven instead of hell.

Commentary:
Are you saying that all one has to do is just believe in Jesus Christ,
believe the gospel and they will go to heaven?  Yes.

It sounds too easy; it sounds too good to be true.

That's why it is called the "good news".

Does that mean we can just continue to sin all we want and still be saved? 
No.  Once you are saved, you will be changed.

2 Corinthians 5:17  "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new
creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"

Once changed, you will have a desire to do the things that please God.  You
can still sin and do wicked things, but you will feel bad about it.  If you
can sin against God and not feel bad about it, you have not been saved.

Romans 6:1  "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace
may increase?  By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any
longer?"

What if we do sin?  What should we do?

1 John 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive
us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

What about babies and others who do not have the capacity to "hear and
believe"?  Do they go to hell?

The Bible does not specifically say.  It is almost as if God were saying,
"You be concerned about your soul; I will take care of the souls of babies
and others."

I cannot believe for a moment that Jesus, who said,

Matthew 19:14  Jesus said, "Let the little [children] come to me, and do not
hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

would not have a special plan to cover babies and others.

Consider what David said when his baby died shortly after birth,

2 Samuel 12:22-23  He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted
and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the
child live.'  But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him
back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

In the last sentence David is saying he would see his child again in heaven.

God is not some evil monster as some would like to portray him.  He only
asks two basic things, that we love him and our fellow man.

Matthew 22:36-40  "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 
Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all
your soul and with all your mind.'  This is the first and greatest
commandment.  And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."  

I would encourage anyone, whether you agree or disagree with the above, to
read the Bible and see what it says.  Don't believe what I tell you; don't
believe what others tell you.  I'm continually amazed at what people claim
the Bible says.  Read it for yourself!  Try starting with the Gospel of
John.  I welcome questions and comments.  If you want to argue, don't
bother.*

Message: 61372
Author: Jeff Beck
Category: Question?
Subject: Savage on Johnson
Date: 10/02/89  Time: 17:26:58

SPLAT!!
 
Obviously he was a liar.  Did you actually entertain the notion that he was
telling the truth?  There was no need to calculate ages in order to
determine this.
 

Message: 61373
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Thornburg
Date: 10/02/89  Time: 19:04:19

Well, it is clear to everyone that you neither listen nor want to hear any
more.  I will consider wasting my time for just one last try to get you to
pay attention.  I've killed a tree printing off your last bunch of messages.

Message: 61374
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Religion
Subject: Bob T. /Dog?
Date: 10/02/89  Time: 19:26:00

        GREAT posts and well said Bob... Only a compleate moron would not
understand what is said in those few verses.  I can't see where the
unbelievers get hate and anger from...  They must fear truth.

        B-Dog... So you "Killed a tree PRINTING them"....  Did you by chance
READ them as well?  Are you having a problem?  Give me a call, sounds like
you are about to crack.  I want to help if I can....  Neither Bob nor I wish
you harm.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 61375
Author: $ Robert Knee
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Religion
Date: 10/02/89  Time: 20:26:23

I am fed up with pointless religious arguments.  It has already been
determined that God does not exist, although this being America, you are
free to continue believing in him if you so desire.  So why beat a dead
horse?  Let's talk about something more productive, say football.

The Phoenix Cardinals are very disappointing.  They couldn't even beat the
San Diego Chargers!  What can ya do?

Message: 61376
Author: Mike Carter
Category: Answer!
Subject: Last
Date: 10/02/89  Time: 20:39:23

If you're fed up, then why post? Just because you don't know God will
not make the "determination" he doesn't exist. Nor do Radio waves.
Whu beat a dea horse with the Cardinals?
If you want pro-neanderthal discussion, go to the games.

Message: 61377
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Knee theology
Date: 10/03/89  Time: 06:38:13

 While we are at opposite ends of the spectrum concerning God, we do agree
concerning the Bidwell bunch.
 I hate (not really) to be an I-told-you-so, but I said over a year ago that
the Cards would fail in Phoenix, if for no other reason than Phoenix would
not support a loser. I think the home opener, with some 30,000 vacant seats,
sort of proved my point. A losing team, combined with Bidwell's greed, will
spell their doom.
 And today is the day we have the opportunity to say a resounding NO!!! to
Terrible Terry's bid for a $100 million dollar baseball fiasco.
 One of the best arguments I have heard against prop 1, interestingly enough
came from a couple of proponents of the stadium. Two arguments, actually.
One said, when asked about private funding for the project, that it had been
attempted without success for over 3 years. If the smart money won't go for
it, why? Because it is obviously a loser. So then, why should we support it?
Again, it was said just yesterday on KFYI, that the stadium, once built,
would LOSE about $5 million a year! This sounds like a contradiction of the
rosy picture that Goddard and Garagiola paint, doesn't it?
 I can hardly wait to get to the polls this morning!

Message: 61378
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bob/Catholics
Date: 10/03/89  Time: 07:35:26

They do not worship statues either. This is a missconception of all
non-Catholics and continues to persist.
I am a former Catholic. I never worshipped a statue in my life. Ha.
               -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 61379
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bob on Catholics
Date: 10/03/89  Time: 07:40:32

I could be wrong, but wasn't the first religion that broke away from the
original Catholic church Lutheran? (Martin Luther?)
What was then the first religion if it wasn't Catholic? I think it started
out Catholic and then became Roman Catholic. That's when the trouble
started! Still going on! -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 61380
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Paul/games
Date: 10/03/89  Time: 07:45:57

I think Phoenix is too hot for either football or baseball. Can you imagine
going to a base ball game in July? I wouldn't. Now hockey is another story!
                         -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 61381
Author: Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: beating DEA horses
Date: 10/03/89  Time: 10:11:49

Why indeed? Please forgive my ignorance, but, being a new user, I'm
fascinated by the vast assortment of malapropisms you employ.  What does the
sentence "Just because you don't know God will not make the "determination"
he doesn't exist." mean?  What is a Radio, as opposed to a radio?  And I'm
rather puzzled by this sentence, too:  "Whu beat a dea horse with the
Cardinals?" Who, is Whu?  A Chinese national?  Is he beating the dea (or is
that DEA...it's so difficult to tell, given your capricious use of
capitalisation) horse with members of a sports club, or a flock of birds?
I'm puzzled by the use of the interrogative tone in this sentence.  Is the
question rhetorical?  I don't recall a previous reference to this Whu chap.
Also -- what, precisely, is a "pro-neanderthal" (ah, elusive grammar)
discussion?  And who is taking the anti-Neanderthal stance?

Message: 61382
Author: Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Sysop on B-Dog
Date: 10/03/89  Time: 10:18:44

Yes, the warning signs are all there.  It's obvious he's close to a nervous
breakdown...
 
Beau Dog!  Get help before it's too late!  And stop fearing truth.  You know
that scientific rationalism is just a rediculous attempt by the immoral to
escape the just wrath of the Almighty.
 

Message: 61383
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Vote
Subject: MLK day
Date: 10/03/89  Time: 11:06:56

This was just a quicky [V]ote... I am not sure what the numbers prove.
I would have rather had seen a Yes & No [V]ote on this subject.
But here are the results anyway.

Only Arizona residents need [V]ote this one:

Recently the State of Arizona got its own "King Holiday"....  What best
fits your thoughts on this:

[A]  We needed it, and I am for it!
[B]  We did not need this holiday.
[C]  We could have picked a better person to honor than M.L.K.
[D]  We needed it, but I don't like the way it was implemented (Greed)

[E]  I am not going to [V]ote this question!  (sulk)

Poll results to date:
[A] 6    [B] 4    [C] 6    [D] 3    [E] 4

----------------------------------------------------------------------
The NEW [V]ote is: Did you go to the polls and [V]ote in the OCT 3rd
election?

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 61384
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Vote
Subject: New [V]ote
Date: 10/03/89  Time: 11:18:33

This is for Arizona, Phoenix residents only....

October 3, 1989 Mayor & Council - Special Election

[A] I did my part and VOTED!  (Now I have the right to bitch)
[B] I was registered to vote in this election....but did not do so!
[C] I live in the VOTE area, but I am not registered.
[D] I do NOT live in the area, so I could not vote.

How do you vote [A-D] or [CR] to abort:$

Poll results to date:
[A] 1    [B] 0    [C] 0    [D] 0

I just posted the above as the new [V]ote...  I did MY part!

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 61385
Author: $ Michael James
Category: Question?
Subject: Cliff
Date: 10/03/89  Time: 13:13:43

How did you vote?

Message: 61386
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Dog
Date: 10/03/89  Time: 14:51:43

Re:  "Well, it is clear to everyone that you neither listen nor want to
hear"

I'm sorry you feel that about it.

Re:  "I've killed a tree printing off your last bunch of messages."

I'm sorry your printer is acting up.

Message: 61387
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann
Date: 10/03/89  Time: 14:58:17

Re:  "I never worshipped a statue in my life."

Neither did I, but then I have never been a Catholic.

I guess it depends on one's definition of "worship".  When I see a person
down on their knees with their hands clasped in the traditional position of
prayer, before a statue of Mary, that fits my definition or worship.

According to good ol' Webster:
Worship - The reverent love and allegiance accorded a deity, idol, or sacred
object.

It seems to fit.

Message: 61388
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann
Date: 10/03/89  Time: 15:02:39

Re:  "What was then the first religion if it wasn't Catholic?"

This is more of a historical question rather than a religious one.  And
history was never one of my strong points.  I'm not sure when the Catholics
came along.  I do not believe Peter knew anything about it.  He was probably
very surprised when he first heard he was the first pope.

Peter, "I'm the what??"  "A pope??"  "What's that??"

Message: 61389
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jeff
Date: 10/03/89  Time: 15:04:13

Re:  ""Whu beat a dea horse with the Cardinals?" Who, is Whu?  A Chinese
national?"

How about this one?  "Do you walk to work or take your lunch?"

Message: 61390
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bob/Information
Date: 10/03/89  Time: 20:35:00

Listed below is information I gathered from the Library at A.S.U.  The
first paragraph is from 'History of Books'.
Even so, few people could read during the Middle Ages, and virtually all
the manuscripts, knowledge, and literature of the ancient world, as well as
the Bible and the great texts of Christendom, were produced and preserved in
monasteries. The great medieval scriptoria reflected the efforts of many
monks working together, as well as the labors of theologians, skilled
illuminators, and scribes.  A remarkable number of copies of works, both
secular and religious, were produced by hand copying.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  The Authority of the Bible.

Protestants have always made much of the Bible, but acceptance of its
authority has not led to unanimity among them. Differing interpretations of
the same Bible have produced the most divided movement of any in the great
world religions, as hundreds of sects in at least a dozen great Protestant
families of churches (Anglicanism, CONGREGATIONALISM, METHODISM,
PRESBYTERIANISM, Lutheranism, the BAPTIST churches, and the like) compete in
free societies.  Attitudes toward the bible in contemporary protestantism
range from belief in its literal truth on the fundamentalist end of the
spectrum (see FUNDAMENTALISM) to extremely free interpretations among
liberal Protestants.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 61391
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bob/last
Date: 10/03/89  Time: 20:37:10

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
TITLE(s):        Roman Catholic church
The Roman Catholic church is the largest and oldest church within
Christianity.

Just thought you'd like to know.  I have some more information on the
beginnings of the bible and I'll have to dig it up.  -Rod