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Apollo BBS Archive - November 18 - 25, 1989
Message: 62241
Author: Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Mike/store wars
Date: 11/18/89 Time: 13:50:02
Well, the ad did claim that the products represented both regular and sale
priced items. Of course, it did not state the ratio...
Message: 62242
Author: Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Dean/puzzles
Date: 11/18/89 Time: 14:10:00
Well, I am not suffering any delusions about the purpose of logic puzzles.
However, this does not invalidate my complaints about the absurd framing of
these puzzles. If the purpose was to randomly select from equally qualified
applicants, then a puzzle becomes superfluous. If not, then the
puzzlemaker must endeavor to be fair to all. After all, one doesn't
design school tests so that some students cannot solve the problems, while
others can.
Furthermore, if qualifications fall outside the scope of these puzzles, why
does the text of Zak's puzzle plainly state that "The person who had to
choose one of the three applicants for the job devised a test to see which
of the three was smartest." ? Information given in a logic puzzle should be
logically consistent. It is possible to design logic puzzles in a manner
that eliminates these contradictory elements.
As for my "two assumptions too many":
(1) The assumption that those responsible (for the test) wanted it to be so,
even though they are using a logic puzzle instead of any realistic method.
-- The whole process of administering a logic puzzle (or any other kind of
TEST) implies the need to cull applicants by their wit; this necessitates
fairness for the test to have any meaning. If it was a random choice, no
test would be necessary. Furthermore, your phrasing implies that logic
tests are somehow an invalid or unrealistic means by which to test
applicants; at a certain stage in the examination of applicants, this is by
no means necessarily the case.
(2) That those responsible did, in fact, come up with a fair puzzle. This
is not a herculean task, given the artificiality and complete freedom to
manipulate elements which a logic puzzle designer has.
If the puzzle was a puzzle, then there would by definition be a legitimate
means of winning (which there was). If the puzzle was fair, then each
contestant would have the same chance, based on external factors, of winning
(which they did not). The front player could not logically conclude that
the puzzle was fair and at the same time conclude that it had no solution.
Furthermore, it is really us, and not the imaginary players, which are
called upon to solve the puzzle. We start with the assumption that there is
in fact a legitimate puzzle to be solved (that there is a solution). We
then work with a meta-puzzle -- which contains the puzzle which the players
faced imbedded in the text of a larger puzzle (more information). It is
necessary that the meta-puzzle be logically consistent, not merely the terms
of the pseudo-puzzle (a puzzle for non-existent players).
Message: 62244
Author: Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Dean/Strunk
Date: 11/18/89 Time: 14:32:36
The book has been revised several times since Strunk's death. The edition I
have, which is coauthored by E.B. White, was published in 1979. It is a new
edition, not merely a reprint. Not having seen Todd Reese's answer, I could
not comment on its style. Of course, I doubt Mr. Reese was attempting to
write good prose, anymore than I was. The point is not whether the answer
could be given without using any masculine pronouns -- obviously it can,
awkward as it may be to repetitively refer to asexual entities -- but that
it is perfectly acceptable (and perhaps even stylistically preferable in
certain cases) to use masculine pronouns to refer to individuals of
indeterminant sex; and that one cannot infer a sexual bias from such usage.
Message: 62245
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: last
Date: 11/18/89 Time: 17:02:21
You know, Dean, she's right.
Message: 62246
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: In search of
Subject: Puzzles
Date: 11/18/89 Time: 17:41:45
All this puzzle-talk is interesting, but I think it's time to move on to a
new puzzle. Here is a somewhat easier one:
There is a bum in downtown Phoenix who just *loves* cigars.
Unfortunately, he has no money. However, he often finds cigar butts in
gutters-n-such, and sometimes, when a craving hits, he spends hours
searching for these butts. One day, he manages to find a grand total of 25
cigar butts!
It takes 5 butts to make a full cigar.
The question is, that night, how many cigars does the bum smoke?
(Assuming he uses what he found.)
The first correct answer wins...a cigar.
Message: 62247
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Answer!
Subject: Zak
Date: 11/18/89 Time: 19:37:46
Out of 25 cigar butts he first makes 5 cigars. Then out of the five cigar
butts left, he makes one more cigar. The answer then is 6 cigars. But man,
I would sure hate to have to smoke that last cigar!
Message: 62248
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: sigh
Date: 11/18/89 Time: 20:22:07
That was too easy. Too bad Bob posted it on the main board, or we could all
have a cigar, courtesy of Zak.
Message: 62249
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bob
Date: 11/19/89 Time: 00:19:56
Job well done. When do you want your cigar?
Message: 62250
Author: Penile Member
Category: Sex & Love
Subject: Zakey
Date: 11/19/89 Time: 00:54:23
I thought you said your sister was highly intelligent.
Message: 62251
Author: Penile Member
Category: Sex & Love
Subject: Zak: Duuuuuuuh!
Date: 11/19/89 Time: 01:00:27
That's an easy one.
Message: 62252
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Zak's latest
Date: 11/19/89 Time: 06:07:40
I won't even try to answer that, since the prize is a cigar, and if there's
anything I detest more than cigarette smoke, it has to be that foul, filthy,
absolutely obscene smell of cigar smoke.
If Iwere to answer it, I suppose the answer would be none, since the bum
would either be sleeping that night, or some other cigar loving bum would
have killed him off for the loot. (Just something silly to lighten the
load.)
Message: 62253
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Question?
Subject: Paul
Date: 11/19/89 Time: 08:27:17
Why are you constantly giving us commercials on how much you hate smoking?
You have been injecting it into non-related posts. Could you lighten up just
a tad? Geeze. -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 62254
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: last/Ann on Paul
Date: 11/19/89 Time: 09:00:50
Paul and I will 'lighten up' if you will quit 'lighting up'!
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*
Message: 62255
Author: Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Zak's butts
Date: 11/19/89 Time: 13:31:49
That was an interesting puzzle, and despite what others have said, was not
immediately apparent to me. Perhaps I shouldn't have said that...
Anyway, I was too late. More!
Message: 62257
Author: Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Zak/62245
Date: 11/19/89 Time: 13:41:44
Cute.
Actually, I'm a hermaphrodite, so feel free to use your choice of pronouns.
(There goes James Hawley's "spore" theory.)
Message: 62258
Author: Jeff Beck
Category: My Dinner with...
Subject: Chaos
Date: 11/19/89 Time: 14:08:16
"Early in his (Benoit Mandelbrot) time at IBM . . . he came upon a practical
problem of intense concern to his corporate patron. Engineers were
perplexed by the problem of noise in telephone lines used to transmit
information from computer to computer. Electric current carries the
information in discrete packets, and engineers knew that the stronger they
made the current the better it would be at drowning out noise. But they
found that some spontaneous noise could never be eliminated. Once in a
while it would wipe out a piece of signal, creating an error.
Although by its nature the transmission noise was random, it was well
known to come in clusters. Periods of errorless communication would be
followed by periods of errors. By talking to the engineers, Mandelbrot soon
learned that there was a piece of folklore about the errors that had never
been written down, because it matched none of the standard ways of thinking:
the more closely they looked at the clusters, the more complicated the
patterns of errors seemed. Mandelbrot provided a way of describing the
distribution of errors that predicted exactly the observed pattern. For one
thing, it made it impossible to calculate an average rate of errors -- an
average number of errors per hour, or per minute, or per second. On
average, in Mandelbrot's scheme, errors approached infinite sparseness.
His description worked by making deeper and deeper separations between
periods of clean transmission, and periods of errors. Suppose you divide a
day into hours. An hour might pass with no errors at all. Then an hour
might contain errors. Then an hour might pass with no errors.
"But suppose you then divided the hour with errors into smaller periods of
twenty minutes. You would find that here, too, some periods would be
completely clean, while some would contain a burst of errors. In fact,
Mandelbrot argued -- contrary to intuition -- that you could never find a
time during which errors were scattered continuously. Within any burst of
errors, no matter how short, there would always be periods of completely
error free tranmission." (is this true?) "Furthermore, he discovered a
consistent geometric relationship between the bursts of errors and the
spaces of clean transmission. On scales of an hour or a second, the
proportion of error free periods to error ridden periods remained constant.
. . . Engineers had no framework for understanding Mendelbrot's description,
but mathematicians did. In effect, Mandelbrot was duplicating an abstract
construction known as the Cantor set. . . To make a cantor set, you start
with the interval of numbers from zero to one, represented by a line
segment. Then you remove the middle third." (Question: how can the term
'middle third' be applied to infinity?) "That leaves two segments, and you
remove the middle third of each. . . that leaves four segments, and you
remove the middle third of each -- and so on to infinity. What remains? A
strange "dust" of points, arranged in clusters, infinitely many yet
infinitely sparse. Mandelbrot was thinking of transmission errors as a
cantor set arranged in time.
"This highly abstract description had practical weight for scientists trying
to decide between different strategies of controlling error. In particular,
it meant that, instead of trying to increase signal strength to drown out
more and more noise, engineers should settle for a modest signal, accept the
inevitibility of errors and use a strategy of redundancy to catch and
correct them. Bursts of error had always sent the engineers looking for a
man sticking a screwdriver somewhere. But Mandelbrot's scaling patterns
suggested that the noise would never be explained on the basis of specific
local events."
Message: 62261
Author: $ Spaz Brown
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Beck/Chaos
Date: 11/19/89 Time: 22:27:08
I like it.
HB
Message: 62262
Author: $ Spaz Brown
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Pascal/sisters
Date: 11/19/89 Time: 22:28:20
Heather or Hazel could also have been born on Leap Day and be real sisters.
Then, one's numerical age would be one-fourth of her chronological age and
they could be the same.
HB
Message: 62264
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: In search of
Subject: Penile Member
Date: 11/20/89 Time: 00:30:09
What a dick.
Message: 62265
Author: Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ms. Brown/last
Date: 11/20/89 Time: 00:45:08
Hmmm... the key phrase was "the same age (give or take a few minutes)."
Minutes are a form of chronological, not numerical measurement. If their
ages *could* be a few minutes apart, it would have to be their chronological
ages. If they both had the numerical age of 11, but one was chronologically
44, they could not be "a few minutes" apart, even if one had been born at
11:59 p.m. on leap day, and the other had been born at 12:01 a.m. the day
after a leap day, since they would be different years and thus would be over
half a million minutes apart in age.
It was a nice try, though.
(Ever seen Siskel & Ebert's "At The Movies" ? Just imagine Ebert standing
there in front of that newspaper delivery van with his arms folded across
his chest Il Duce style and that ineluctibly smug expression on his face.)
Message: 62266
Author: Issey Miyake
Category: War!
Subject: Lorem ipsum
Date: 11/20/89 Time: 03:37:09
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam
nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat
volutpat. Ut wisi enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exerci tation
ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis
autem vel eum iriure dolor inn hendrerit in vulputate velit esse molestie
consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat nulla facilisis at vero eros et
accumsan et iusto odio dignissim qui blandit praesent luptatum zzril delenit
augue duis dolore te feugait nulla facilisi. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet,
consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut
laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat. Ut wisi enim ad minim veniam,
quis nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut aliquip ex
ea commodo consequat. Duis autem vel eum iriure dolor in hendrerit in
vulputate velit esse molestie consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat nulla
facilisis at vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio dignissim qui blandit
praesent luptatum zzril delenit augue duis dolore te feugair nulla facilisi.
Nam liber tempor cum soluta nobis eleifend option congue nihil imperdiet
doming id quod mazim placerat facer possim assum. Lorem ipsum dolor sit
amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt
ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat. Ut wisi enim ad minim
veniam, quis nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut
aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis autem vel eum iriure dolor in
hendrerit in vulputate velit esse molestie consequat, vel illum dolore eu
feugiat nulla facilisis at vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio dignissim qui
blandit praesent luptatum zzril delenit augue duis dolore te feugait nulla
facilisi. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed
diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat
volutpat. Ut wisi enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exerci tation
ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis
autem vel eum iriure dolor in hendrerit in vulputate velit esse molestie
consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat nulla facilisis at vero eros et
accumsan et iusto odio dignissim qui blandit praesent luptatum zzril delenit
augue duis dolore te feugait nulla facilisi. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet,
consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nunummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut
laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat. Ut wisi enim ad minim veniam,
quis nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit lobortis nisl ut aliquip ex
ea commodo consequat. Duis autem vel eum iriure dolor in hendrerit in
vulputate velit esse molestie consequat, vel illum dolore eu feugiat nulla
facilisis at vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio dignissim qui blandit
prasent luptatum zzril delenit augue duis dolore te feugait nulla facilisi.
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy
nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat. Ut
wisi enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exerci tation ullamcorper suscipit
lobortis nisl ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis autem vel eum iriure
dolor in hendrerit in vulputate velit esse molestie consequat, vel illum
dolore eu feugiat nulla facilisis at vero eros et accumsan et iusto odio
dignissim qui blandit praesent luptatum zzril delenit augue duis dolore te
feugait nulla facilisi.
Message: 62268
Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Miyake
Date: 11/20/89 Time: 03:53:24
Clothes your mouth.
Message: 62269
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann
Date: 11/20/89 Time: 05:35:25
Commercials are those things in radio and TV for which sponsors pay. THe
information I provide on the evils and inevitable results of nicotine
addiction are not commercials. They are testimonials to those things I know
about the filthy habit that had me enslaved for some 34 years, and of which
I am now, THANK GOD! free.
Just so you are able to recognize the difference.
And why just pick on me? Cliff has at least as much to say against the
addiction as I do.
Message: 62270
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff on me & Paul
Date: 11/20/89 Time: 08:13:41
You mean the two of you will insert your non-smoking messages into
non-related messages because I continue to smoke? Why? Doesn't make a bit of
sense. Doesn't make me want to quit or will. To each his own and 'viva La
Difference'! -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 62271
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Issey
Date: 11/20/89 Time: 08:16:30
What was that you said? It's Latin to me. -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 62272
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Paul/last
Date: 11/20/89 Time: 08:19:56
I picked on Cliff too.
Re: testimonials ... they can be turned off like commercials!
You'd better be careful - that soap box of yours is getting weak from all
that standing on it. (snicker)
* Smile - your on Candid Camera! * -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 62274
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: Sex & Love
Subject: Leonardo da Vinci
Date: 11/20/89 Time: 18:35:33
[from _The World of Leonardo_, by Robert Wallace and the editors of
Time-Life Books, 1981.]
Apart from his artistic chronology, there are very few fixed dates
that can be used to pinpoint Leonardo's activities in the decade of his
twenties. One document, of April 8, 1476, when Leonardo was nearly 24, may
or may not have some significance in his personal history, but it has loomed
large in later analyses of him and cannot easily be overlooked. The
Florentine rulers, as one means of holding power, maintained a box called
the *tamburo* outside the Palazzo Vecchio, or town hall. Into this box one
could drop anonymous accusations, which were investigated if and when
witnesses came forward to testify before the police. On the date in
question, the *tamburo* was found to contain a charge that Leonardo and
three other young men had engaged in homosexual acts with a 17-year-old
artist's model named Jacopo Saltarelli. The charge may have been motivated
merely by spite; the accuser was never identified, no witnesses presented
themselves and although the case went to court a second time two months
later, it ultimately came to nothing. Today, one's inclination is to
ignore the whole affair. But the circumstances of Leonardo's life, his
comments on sex and his attitude toward women [or lack thereof] will not
quite permit this. The charges will come again to mind.
...Perhaps the most dramatic change in attitude toward Leonardo's image
occurred early in the century when the artist fell under the heavy,
humorless scrutiny of Siugmund Freud. Working with what he took to be
historical facts, Freud in 1910 produced his celebrated essay *Leonardo da
Vinci, and a Memory of His Childhood*. In it he conjectured that Leonardo,
lacking a father image in the first years of his life, had more-than-normal
erotic relations with his mother, the peasant Caterina; and later on, when
he was brought into his father's household, Leonardo received extreme
affection from his childless stepmother. Freud also placed great emphasis
on a childhood dream or fantasy recorded by the artist himself, involving an
erotic encounter with a large bird which alighted on Leonardo's cradle.
Coupling this with remarks of Leonardo such as "the act of procreation and
everything that has any relation to it is so disgusting that human beings
would soon die out if there were no pretty faces and sensuous
dispositions," Freud concluded that in all likelihood Leonardo was a latent
homosexual who sublimated his inclinations in his voracious seeking after
knowledge.
In his analysis, Freud made the error, surprising in a scholar, of
accepting material in the widely read book by Dmitri Merejkowski, _The
Romance of Leonardo da Vinci_, a work of almost unadulterated fiction. In
addition Freud used an erroneous translation of Leonardo's notes, in which
the bird in the childhood fantasy was rendered as "vulture." Using this
mistranslation as a point of departure, Freud then embarked on a lengthy,
involved discussion of ancient Egyptian sexual-religious beliefs concerning
vultures. After noting that the Egyptians had worshiped a motherly,
vulture-headed goddess named *Mut*, Freud asked solemnly: "We may question
whether the sound similarity to our word 'mother' (*Muther*) is only
coincidental?"
The proper translation of the word is actually not "vulture" but
"kite," a bird of the hawk family common in Europe, and thus Freud's
excursion into the lore of vultures becomes quite irrelevant. Beyond that,
Freud was unaware of the true chronology of Leonardo's paintings and
therefore made some gross blunders in trying to relate his own psychological
observations to the works of art which he discussed.
Freud himself was dubious about the ultimate value of his essay -- "I
would not like you to judge the certainty of our other results by this
sample," he later wrote, and if he were now alive he might well withdraw or
greatly revise it. The work has been repeatedly attacked and disparaged by
later scholars, psychiatrists and art historians, with considerable
justification. However, parts of Freud's analysis remain as valuable
contributions to any study of Leonardo. Notably, Freud enabled others to
see the complex, looming genius as a human being, flawed or fallible as the
case may be.
Message: 62277
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Vote
Subject: ... so far ...
Date: 11/20/89 Time: 19:09:31
looks like 13-9 to me... with nobody either fitting the 'adulterer'
category, or feeling that one of the other categories is a better
description.
Message: 62278
Author: Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Zak/Leonardo
Date: 11/20/89 Time: 20:13:59
Thanks for the interesting posts. So far, then, it appears that theories of
his homosexuality are based on wholly unsubstantiated, anonymous charges,
his disdain for sex, and the ravings of a quack.
I would be curious to know more about this "erotic childhood dream" of a
bird which Leonardo supposedly recorded. Specifically, were the "erotic"
elements infered or explicit?
Message: 62279
Author: Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: 62266-67
Date: 11/20/89 Time: 20:31:16
Curious. The text repeats itself six times, with the single exception of a
unique sentence between the second and third iteration. Some of the words
are definitely Latin, some are definitely not. Of course, I do not know
Latin, but I am not aware of any Latin words that start with "w" or "zz", or
which end in "ing", or end in "sl", &c., &c.
Furthermore, many of the conjugations and declensions seem incorrect (I
base this observation solely on the examination of a Latin (classical)
dictionary), and I am not sure that the words taken together form any
meaningful clauses.
What is it? Nonsense? A concealed message? The work of a semi-illiterate
Latin student? And why six iterations? To conceal the unique sentence?
Seems unlikely. I intend to submit it to a Latin scholar for translation,
and failing that, examine it for concealed messages by means of simple
concealment, transposition, substitution, or some combination; assuming,
that is, that my interest does not wane in the interim.
Message: 62280
Author: Ray Jones
Category: Hard/Software
Subject: floppy drivs
Date: 11/20/89 Time: 22:17:08
Anyone got an old 360K floppy drive they want to find a new home for?
Leave me a message on the board, I'll check back later.
Thanks
Message: 62281
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Zak
Date: 11/20/89 Time: 22:25:35
Re: When do you want your cigar?
I'll pass, thanks.
Message: 62282
Author: Elizabeth Danforth
Category: War!
Subject: Miyake/Lorem ipsum
Date: 11/20/89 Time: 23:17:25
Ahah! I can't swear that the acres of "Latin" in 62266-67 don't have some
other antecedents, but I recognize it nevertheless...
Letraset's Body Type!
As a once-upon-a-time magazine editor, I occasionally (rarely) needed (but
used) blocks of nonsense type with which to mock-up advertising copy or
whatever else. At a quick scan, it looks like the real article (so to
speak!) but is swift and simple.
Am I wrong?
Hope I don't win a cigar...
~
Aside from that, greetings all; I'm new at this. Hope I'm not stepping on
someone's toes, but the "Lorem ipsum" just looked a little too familiar...
Message: 62283
Author: $ Steve MacGregor
Category: Answer!
Subject: Last
Date: 11/21/89 Time: 01:36:08
Yeah! That's it! I knew I'd seen that stuff before; it looks like Latin,
and even has a few genuine Latin words, but is actually gibberish. Just
like the sentence "Foring mests larry no granning sunners in the rones"
looks like English, but means nothing.
========= Pascal #(u,u)# Yawn! MacProgrammer =========
P.S.: Der Schmirrenhorst zerwaldet sich zum drossten am Pfintingschaft.
Message: 62284
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Thornbob/cigar
Date: 11/21/89 Time: 02:59:10
Whew! I'm off the hook...thanks.
Message: 62285
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann's addiction
Date: 11/21/89 Time: 05:18:49
As long as you want to continue to exercize your right to destroy a fine
person who Cliff and I consider a friend, (I am presuming to speak for Cliff
here), then Cliff and I will continue to exercize or first amendment right
to speak out against that particular form of suicide.
We love you, and would like to see you around for many years to come. After
all, if we can't harrass you, then who?
Message: 62286
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann/my soap box
Date: 11/21/89 Time: 05:22:17
Don't worry about my soap box weakening, Ann. It is well supported by strong
beams of facts and figures, as well as popular opinion. Your suicidal
minority is getting smaller all the time, in case you hadn't noticed. Why
not join the clean air gang, and give your lungs, heart and the rest of your
body (along with ours) a break?
Message: 62287
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Paul
Date: 11/21/89 Time: 08:00:58
It's nice to be loved! It's also nice of you to think of my welfare. I won't
argue anymore, so go on with your testimonials/commercials - I'll listen.
-=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 62288
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Paul on box
Date: 11/21/89 Time: 08:03:04
Remember dear, all of us have 'soap boxes'! Heaven help you if I get on one
of my many!
You know, I may cruise your neighborhood after all!!! Ha. -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 62289
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Zak
Date: 11/21/89 Time: 08:07:27
Thanks for the posts on Leonardo. Very informative. I never did like Sigmond
much though. At times I got the impression he was more of a fanatic than the
people he talked about. Perhaps he is right in his analysis of Leonardo.
Who knows? -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 62291
Author: George Howe
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Death of a Hard Driv
Date: 11/21/89 Time: 23:22:01
I am a former smoker. I quit mostly because I couldn't breathe when
I woke up, or when I climbed stairs, or hardly anytime. Also, I smoked
nonstop when at my keyboard. Not long ago my 10 meg became a 9 then a 7
then a 6 meg. Guess what? The insides where covered with the residue from
you got it, cig smoke. Still, we oughta give smokers a break. Eventually
they will all die and the rest of us will be happy! So let 'em commit slow
suicide.
Message: 62292
Author: George Howe
Category: Answer!
Subject: Adultery
Date: 11/21/89 Time: 23:23:17
I vote for #5
Message: 62293
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: War!
Subject: Columbus holiday???
Date: 11/21/89 Time: 23:47:23
[The following is from the book, _Legends, Lies & Cherished Myths of
American History_, by Richard Shenkman, 1988.]
Christopher Columbus's achievements were so great that people have been
willing to believe almost anything about him, no matter how fantastic.
Nothing is better known, for instance, than the story that Columbus
convinced people the world is round, not flat. "Before Columbus proved the
world was round," the *Encyclopaedia Britannica* reported in an
advertisement for the publication in 1961, "people thought the horizon
marked its edge." Continued the *Britannica*: "Today we know better."
"Indeed we do," one critic has remarked. The authority of the
*Encyclopaedia Britannica* notwithstanding, it was Aristotle who proved the
world is round, pointing out during an eclipse that the earth casts a
spherical shadow on the moon. Plato popularized the concept. By Columbus's
day it was taken for granted. The story giving Columbus credit for the
discovery did not even surface until after he had died.
The person mainly responsible for the myth was Washington Irving. An
obscure writer had mentioned it before, but it was Irving who popularized
the story in a dramatic and embellished account. The story appeared not in
one of Irving's works of fiction but in what was billed as a biography of
Columbus.
In Irving's account, Columbus, in need of funds for his trip to the
Indies, goes for help to the sages of the University of Salamanca, whom he
tells about his "theory" that the world is round and that the best way to go
east is to sail west. The "simple mariner" argues for his theory with
"natural eloquence," in a plea, "as it were," for "the cause of the new
world." Unfortunately Columbus is turned down, the sages being deaf to this
entreaty for the exercise of reason and light. Irving laments the outcome
but observes: "What a striking spectacle must the hall of the old convent
have presented at this memorable conference!"
As prizewinning historian Samuel Eliot Morison remarks, the story is
"pure moonshine." Although Columbus did meet with the professors of
Salamanca to try to obrain backing for his trip, the "sphericity of the
globe was not in question." According to Morison, "the issue was the width
of the ocean." The professors thought Columbus had underestimated the width
of the ocean. They were right.
A companion story, just as well known, is that Columbus finally got the
money needed for his ocean trip after Queen Isabella had pawned her jewels
to finance the venture. Not true. Although the queen offered to sell her
jewels if that proved necessary, it did not; the voyage was paid for with
government funds.
More controversial is Columbus's reputation as the "first" European
discoverer of America. Determining "firsts" is often a matter of serious
dispute, but in this instance it is not. While Columbus was the first
European whose explorations of America had any consequences, he was
definitely not the first to explore the New World. The first was a Norseman
of whom practically no one has ever heard: Biarni Heriulfson (sometimes
Bjarni Herjulfson), whom Morison has dubbed "Number One, indubitable
European discoverer of America."
Biarni is said to have discovered America by accident. According to
Norse sagas, Biarni sighted what is now known to be North America A.D. 985
(or thereabouts), when he was sailing from Iceland to Greenland and was
blown off course. After Biarni, other Norsemen made voyages to America.
Most notable was the famous Leif Ericsson (son of Eric the Red), who, some
fifteen years after Biarni, is thought to have established a little
community called Vinland or Newfoundland. The Vinland settlement is said to
have lasted about a dozen years until the Norsemen were finally driven off
by hostile Indians.
For many years Columbus's defenders discounted the Norse claims in the
belief that they did not hold up under close scrutiny. Archaeologists could
not find any evidence that Norsemen lived in North America. And Leif's
statement that grapes grew abundantly in Newfoundland (hence the name
Vinland) was demonstrably untrue. Grapes don't grow in Newfoundland at all.
In the early 1960's, however, the remains of a Norse settlement were
discovered in northern Newfoundland at a place called L'Anse aux Meadows.
And it turns out Leif had been mistranslated, linguists taking him to mean
grapes when he meant berries, which are in abundance, just as he said.
Columbus, of course, is still commonly regarded as the modern
discoverer of America, but not by everybody. Some believe John Cabot
deserves the title. Cabot claimed to have landed on Nova Scotia in 1497, a
full year before Columbus touched the New World, but he kept such poor
records the claim has forever remained in dispute and cannot now be settled.
A second voyage to America, in the summer of 1498, is similarly in doubt.
But if Columbus may deserve to be called the first modern discoverer of
America, he probably shouldn't be embraced uncritically. For while he was
undoubtedly a great man, he wasn't necessarily a good man. Unbeknown to
much of the public, he was directly responsible for the deaths of thousands
of Arawak Indians on Haiti. One historian even believes Columbus should be
thought of not as a hero but as a murderer.
His first encounter with the Arawaks could not have gone better. He
himself wrote that the natives on the island "are so naive and so free with
their possessions that no one who has not witnessed them would believe it.
When you ask for something they have, they never say no. To the contrary,
they offer to share with anyone."
Columbus, however, did not reciprocate the Indians' kindness. Under
pressure to bring back riches to Spain, he required Indians over fourteen
years old to make regular contributions of gold. Indians who did not
comply, according to historian Howard Zinn, "had their hands cut off and
bled to death."
Those Indians who weren't killed were often enslaved and shipped to
Spain. On one trip, 500 Arawak men, women, and children were loaded onto
ships bound for the Old World; during the voyage 200 died. Far from feeling
guilty about the practice of slavery, Columbus boasted about it. "Let us in
the name of the Holy Trinity," he wrote, "go on sending all the slaves that
can be sold." Within two years of Columbus's arrival, says Zinn, half of
the 250,000 Indians on Haiti had died "through murder, mutilation or
suicide." Under Columbus's Spanish successors the mistreatment continued.
In 1515 there were just 50,000 Indians left. In 1550 only 500 remained. By
1650 there were none.
Yet such is the desire for heroes Columbus will probably always be
revered. Morison says he ought to be, for although he had his faults, "they
were largely the defects of the qualities that made him great..." Haiti's
Arawaks might feel different. But they aren't around to protest.
---------------------------------------
The preceding was entered as argument against people who think that Columbus
is more deserving of a holiday than Martin Luther King, Jr. You're all bent
out of shape because MLK had extramarital sex, but the systematic murder of
thousands of Indians is no big deal? I'd like to know from people like Bob
and Cliff, why is a Columbus holiday necessary at all? (If you need your
memory refreshed, Bob: In message 61884 you stated that Columbus is more
deserving of a holiday than MLK.)
Message: 62298
Author: $ Spaz Brown
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Zak
Date: 11/22/89 Time: 02:34:03
You know, I'm beginning to get the idea that you spend a lot of time
reading.
Of course, it could just be my imagination.
HB
Message: 62299
Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: last
Date: 11/22/89 Time: 03:14:05
Naw, he just has a hand-held scanner.
Message: 62300
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann/cruising
Date: 11/22/89 Time: 05:32:02
You are welcome to cruise on over here anytime Annie. Just leave the poison
elsewhere. (smile)
Message: 62301
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Zak
Date: 11/22/89 Time: 06:55:41
Interesting Columbus posts. Another myth shattered. He sounded like a beast.
Under the light of this imformation, we should do away with 'his' holiday
altogether.
I remember being so disappointed to find that George Custer was not a true
hero either. When in school, we were taught he was and revered him as one of
the true American heros. My husband was born and raised very close to the
famous 'last stand' area - he picked up arrowheads from that battle as a kid
- he was also taught the same thing. Well Custer turned out to be an
egotistical mass murderer that went against orders for his own
glorification and managed to get his men slaughtered. Strange though, there
are people back there that still think him the hero. -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 62302
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Spaz
Date: 11/22/89 Time: 09:23:49
You have a good imagination.
Message: 62303
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: The SYSOP Speaks
Subject: T-Day!
Date: 11/22/89 Time: 12:36:57
EVERY-ONE.... Have a great and bountiful *T* Day!
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*
Message: 62304
Author: $ Gary Jones
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Columbus
Date: 11/22/89 Time: 13:02:09
So when _did_ MLK discover America?
Message: 62305
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Spy Magazine
Date: 11/22/89 Time: 13:39:39
Winona Ryder is on this month's issue of Spy. She's in a Christmas elf
outfit, holding a lighter in one hand and an American flag in the other.
The cover says, "Buy this magazine or we'll burn this flag."
Zowie.
Message: 62306
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Annie
Date: 11/22/89 Time: 15:34:19
Re: "Interesting Columbus posts. Another myth shattered. He sounded like a
beast"
Yeh, we all know how famous Richard Shenkman is. He is so well known,
never tells a lie, never bends the truth! We can just call everybody a lier
and depend on Richard Shenkman to tell us the truth. Get real.
Hmmmmmm. It would be interesting to see what Richard Shenkman has to say
about MLK.
Message: 62307
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Zak
Date: 11/22/89 Time: 15:35:59
Re: "Buy this magazine or we'll burn this flag." "Zowie"
Well, did you buy it Zak??
Message: 62308
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: War!
Subject: Bob
Date: 11/22/89 Time: 18:14:31
Richard Shenkman may not be a household name, but there is no reason to
conclude that he'd purposely bend the truth about Columbus. All his
research seems to be in order, and there is no indication that he had any
political motivations for writing his book.
MLK does not get coverage in Shenkman's book. By the way, I was in
Waldenbooks today, and looked at Abernathy's autobiography. He devoted all
of 2.5 pages to the discussion of MLK's extramarital sex life. I hope that
doesn't contribute to the sales of his book. Apparently MLK was involved
with a black senator or something, and while they were together, another of
MLK's mistresses was looking for him. When MLK returned, the 2nd mistress
knew he'd been with a first, and they got into a big fight in Abernathy's
hotel room. MLK allegedly pushed her, and she left, so he called out, "Come
back! Come back!" But she didn't come back. This all happened a few days
or so before MLK was murdered.
Technically, I bought the December issue of Spy, because I have a
subscription. But there was no conscious decision to save the flag from
fiery destruction. Let's just say that the money you saved me by not
wanting a cigar went into the cost of the magazine; that way, you indirectly
partially saved an American flag somewhere! Congrats, Bob! Zowie!
Anyway, I think that if you check historical documents you'll find
that the things Shenkman says about Columbus are true. He's no "lier"(sic).
Message: 62309
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: Bulletins
Subject: FILM SIG
Date: 11/22/89 Time: 18:21:02
Y'know, the film sig is doing pretty well; it already has as many
messages as the Phantom Zone. (And they're scrolling off like rolling
glue...)
So, if you want access to the Film Sig, just send Cliff a note. (Even
if you don't want access, send Cliff a note.) And we'll see you...AT THE
MOVIES!
(Any message now, JT is going to tell me to shut up. I can feel it.)
Message: 62310
Author: Jeff Beck
Category: News Today
Subject: Mike Carter
Date: 11/22/89 Time: 20:36:32
Could he have been the "The Wiz" mentioned in the article on hackers in this
week's New Times? He used to use that handle, and it also describes him as
an American brought up in Australia. It mentions some Carteresque personal
wars, and mentions that "he invented the demon dialer."
So then, is there another pugnacious, bombastic hacker/programmer from the
outback calling himself "The Wiz" living hereabouts?
Message: 62311
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: News Today
Subject: last
Date: 11/22/89 Time: 22:21:19
No, everything in the article seems to fit:
"I'd come up with the Demon-Dialer," laughs the onetime computer wizard
*extraordinaire*, who swears he's quit hacking. "It would ring someone up
every five seconds. When [Dave Pratt] would answer, he'd hear this demonic,
hideous-sounding voice: 'Death to those who oppose ze mad speech
synthesizer.' Pratt finally got on the air and begged us to stop. That was
our idea of a little fun."
Now in his late twenties, the Wiz swings his black Reeboks onto a desk
at a City of Phoenix office, where he works in - yup - computers. The only
thing colorful about this soft-bellied guy is the city patch on his drab
green shirt.
It's hard to tell how much of what he says is true. In that way, he's
no different from any hacker who's ever gabbed to an interested stranger --
especially one from the media.
The Wiz portrays himself as a reformed creature of the night, whose
nonstop hacking has given way to marriage and a full-time job. But his days
of wild hacking never stray far from his memory, and he recites his hacking
philosophy machine-gun style.
"When you're on your computer," the Wiz says, "you feel safe, secure,
anonymous. You can't get that feeling anywhere else. You're in your own
little world with your own little computer. It's a superior feeling."
[If that isn't Mike Carter, what is?]
"Sitting right there at a keyboard," he says, making a fist, "you have
a lot of power. I was living it -- the whole thing. We used to make a lot
of beautiful stuff, useful stuff. I'd sit there creating for hours, for
days -- creating!"
To the Wiz, "creating" meant a number of things, such as inventing the
Demon-Dialer software or just hacking into someone else's computer for fun.
Those were good times.
"Now," he complains, sounding like someone's dad, "all you get is some
shithead brat who's just interested in causing a bunch of havoc."
An American who grew up in Australia, the Wiz says he got hooked on
computers as a high school student.
"When I was a kid, I played with diodes and capacitors," he starts. "I
build radios. I loved listening to voices so far away. I'm different than
a lot of hackers because I love to read and write -- mostly science fiction
stuff. And when computers came along, they grabbed me by the throat."
The Wiz returned to the United States in 1980 and enlisted in the Navy.
He aspired to be a fighter-pilot, but he got paid to work on computers. He
and a few buddies had a field day with the sophisticated machinery.
"We played with a program," he says, "so it'd appear that an ICBM was
coming back to blow our base out of the water. It wasn't supposed to be
able to do that. We could program ICBM's to skywrite for us. Never got
caught, either."
This was the early 1980s -- at the dawn of the
computers-are-for-everyone age. Computers, not girls, were #1 to the Wiz
and his hacking sailor pals.
"We'd hack into someone and would duplicate their computer games," he
says. "After we did that, we'd send them a snide message -- 'You have been
cracked by...' We were also breaking long-distance codes --
phone-phreaking like crazy, talking at the government's expense for hours at
a time. Then *WarGames* came out. It suddenly was in vogue to be a
hacker."
...The Wiz invented the Demon-Dialer... "I was hacking until I
dropped," the Wiz continues. "Then, my girlfriend saw a report on CNN about
kids in New Jersey getting busted for breaking into a government computer.
The camera panned in on the evidence. There was my Demon-Dialer. Someone
probably had hacked it off me and copied it. Whoops. I disappeared for a
while."
He didn't lay low for long. The Demon-Dialer was such a hit among the
hacker set that the Wiz had become something of a cult figure, atop what
Paul Saffo says is a three-tier structure.
...The Wiz says he started getting a deluge of "chat requests" from
around the country -- other hackers leaving notes for him on computer
bulletin boards that are the hackers' forum for exchanging news. "They all
wanted the Demon-Dialer. They were little soldiers trying to impress you,
give you little tidbits. They'd make you feel like you're God. I'd tell
them, 'I can grant you any wish you want.'"
[The rest of the article talks about *Neuromancer* and cyberpunks, etc.]
Message: 62314
Author: $ Peter Petrisko
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: NEW TIMES
Date: 11/22/89 Time: 23:53:56
New Times also did a write-up of the underground computer game "Mormonoids
From the Deep". If you'd care to order this game (for the Macintosh), write
to:
Robert Carr 2210 N. 9th St. Boise, Idaho 83702.
$7 for the game disk, $3.50 for the sound disk OR $10 for both.
(the sound disk expands the amount of sound effects from 48K to 437K, but
isn't necessary to play the game. It requires an external drive or hard
disk to use.)
By the way, readers of BURNING TODDLERS knew about "Mormonoids From the
Deep" a full 9 months ago! Sure, New Times is free... IF you don't mind
waiting nine months for your information.... (A new BT will be out within
two weeks...)
Message: 62315
Author: $ Peter Petrisko
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: MIXED UP
Date: 11/22/89 Time: 23:57:45
(at Cliff's request.....)
MIXED UP - a two person exhibit featuring mixed media work by Jeff Falk &
Janet de Berge Lange will have an OPENING RECEPTION on Sunday, Dec. 3rd at
8pm.
The opening will feature a performance art piece by Jeff Falk, a poetry
reading by Paul Waldman, plus the sounds of the Midnight Funk Association.
A $2 donation is requested at the door. GALLERY X. 800 W. Madison.
420-9390.
Message: 62316
Author: $ James Hawley
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Carter
Date: 11/23/89 Time: 00:36:28
Invented the demon dialer? That's a little hard to swallow...
Message: 62317
Author: Lawrence Wilson
Category: Bulletins
Subject: Tax Sales bring $$$$
Date: 11/23/89 Time: 00:51:33
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Message: 62318
Author: Mike Carter
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Of demons and dilers
Date: 11/23/89 Time: 03:17:16
Excuuuuse me, but I''l just take the 5th and a looong vacation.
Message: 62319
Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
Category: Question?
Subject: last
Date: 11/23/89 Time: 03:26:37
Will you autograph my New Times?
Message: 62320
Author: Jeff Beck
Category: Sex & Love
Subject: Peter Petrisko/B.T.
Date: 11/23/89 Time: 04:35:18
Speaking of "Burning Todlers", here's a potential story for your
controversial magazine (it is controversial, isn't it?):
Every Sunday in the personals section of the Republic want-ads, there is an
ad placed by an organisation calling itself the "Arizona Power Exchange."
The ads typically run lines like "The story of O., the story of U." and "Was
9 1/2 Weeks too short for you?". There is a phone number, which reaches a
long recorded message. It turns out that the AZ Power Exchange is a sort of
club for S&M freaks (as well as D&S%0`nd bondage). It is not the prurient
appeal that makes it so ideal for your magazine (if I understand your
mindset, infered from your requests for a pathetic but sincere Elvis
impersonator), but rather the irony of their attitude. Listening to the
tape is like listening to June Cleaver announcing a tupperware party. A
woman describes the organisation and its activities in librarian tones,
inviting the public to open house meetings, making terrible bourgeois jokes
("bring your turkey to our Thanksgiving dinner, but don't forget the ropes")
about subject matter which does not lend itself to apple pie humor, and just
generally trying to convince you how normal it is to whip people with birch
rods.
Message: 62321
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Politics
Subject: Ann/Columbus
Date: 11/23/89 Time: 07:10:25
If Columbus sounds like a beast, Ann, it is only because by
today's standards ALL people were beasts 500 years ago. In light
of the times in which he lived, Columbus behaved in a perfectly
respectable -- even exemplary -- manner.
Now, that is not to say that some of the things he did were
not deplorable. If the information Zak posted is true, Columbus
did indeed commit some horrendous acts. But, just as Zak has
argued in the case of Martin Luther King, Jr., that cannot
diminish his achievements. Regardless of which European actually
first set foot on the "New World," it cannot be denied that
Columbus' journey was the first to have a truly historic impact.
Who knows? Maybe someday people will look back on those who
smoked as beasts for having slaughtered so many non-smokers. :)
BTW, I agree with you that the holiday situation should
remain as it currently is. Aside from racists and Italian-
American organizations (not that the two should be lumped
together except in this regard), the only group I can imagine
sincerely wanting holidays for both MLK, Jr. and Columbus is
state employees. I think they just want an extra day off, just
as I would if I were a state employee.
Message: 62322
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Entertainment/Movies
Subject: Peter/Gallery X
Date: 11/23/89 Time: 07:10:57
Peter, is your gallery one of those being subsidized by the City
because it's having to move for Mr. Colangelo's new playground?
Message: 62323
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bobby
Date: 11/23/89 Time: 08:33:18
Re: Shenkman --- I doubt that he elaborated very much regarding Columbus. I
have read other things about him and that rings pretty true. He really
didn't discover America and he was cruel to the indians - as most
'discoverer's were at that time in history. I just feel MLK did more and he
certainly wasn't a mass murderer. -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 62324
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bill
Date: 11/23/89 Time: 08:44:49
I agree with you re: the MLK holiday and the state employee's wanting
another day off. They have enough already! I also resent the pressure put to
us - blackmail is the word. As much as I admire him - I don't think a
holiday in his honor is the answer and to take Columbus day out. He might
have been a beast, but he did help to get this country started.
Of course, the solution to all this is very simple .... forget the holiday
... if you admire the man, then follow his advice .. forget prejudice and
bigotry. (Not aimed at you personally Bill) Treat all your fellow men as you
want to be treated. See ... simple! -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 62325
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Talk about a sham!
Date: 11/23/89 Time: 09:00:04
Forget the word sham - it should be fraud! And did we get a dose of it last
night! About a week ago my husband answered the phone and a guy told him he
had won $35,000! He said because he had ordered something from a certain
company over the phone, that his name was put into a pool and each month
they draw names and that person is the winner! He said he would call him
later in the week to tell him the details. My husband took this as another
'commercial' type call - they were going to try to sell him something, etc.
Well, he did indeed call back and this was the sham .....
They wanted him to take $7,000 out of our Mastercard and send it to them
last night and the check for $35,000 would be delivered at 10:30AM on
friday. This $7.000 was suppose to be their fee for processing the thing.
(vague) My husband went along with him - said he didn't know if our
Mastercard was that high - the guy then told him that was OK - if he could
just send a percentage of it - $1,500 and they could get the rest out of the
$35,000 check when he got it! He gave him a name and address to send it to
some place in Indianapolis. My husband also told him he didn't know if there
was $1,500 left on M.C. either - the guy said they had a place they could
process it to find out how much we had left on it. (This late at night??)
And that if he didn't send it that night - it wouldn't get here until
monday and by that time, they might have taken him off the list!!! I
listened in on the extention and this guy sounded real slick - a
professional! He said he'd call back in a half hour to see if he had made up
his mind. My husband called the police dept. which were no help at all -
said it must be a sham because it sounded too good to be true. He
... said to call the Better Business and report it. I think we should let
the phone company know myself?! This morning my husband called Indianapolis
and there is no such place of business as this man stated. He is also
suppose to send a 'disclaimer' that my husband is suppose to sign stating he
doesn't want the money. I have a hunch he will recieve no such paper.
It all sounded SOOOO legitimate and a less alert person might have been
fooled. It all boiled down to him wanting us to send $1,500 to some unknown
company in the middle of the night so we could get $35,000 in return!
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Boy, what will they think of next?
Anyway - beware! -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 62327
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: All
Date: 11/23/89 Time: 09:07:09
Have a wonderful Thanksgiving! Save room for the pie. -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 62328
Author: $ Gary Jones
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann/sham
Date: 11/23/89 Time: 09:36:19
Sounds like a scam to me. Too bad you can't get the postal authorities
involved, they could do something.
Message: 62329
Author: $ Gary Jones
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Thanksgiving
Date: 11/23/89 Time: 09:37:08
Happy Thanksgiving to all authorized personnel.
Message: 62330
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Thanksgiving
Date: 11/23/89 Time: 09:56:46
Let us all be thankful that we are not suffering the fate of the Albanian
Mormons.
Message: 62332
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Zak
Date: 11/23/89 Time: 16:41:31
War? It doesn't take much to set you off does it Zak.
Re: "that he'd purposely bend the truth about Columbus"
Well, excuse me! Why is it so difficult for me to accept the word of an
unknow like Shenkman and call every other historian a liar. I guess the
whole world is out of step but Mr. Shenkman. If you want to dance to
Shenkman tune fine, I'd rather not.
Message: 62333
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Annie
Date: 11/23/89 Time: 16:51:51
Re: "He really didn't discover America and he was cruel to the indians"
Well, I heard that he really did discover something. And I heard that he
was a nice guy. So I guess "my heards" are just as good as "your heards".
And what difference does it all make, huh?
Hope you had a good turkey day Annie!
Message: 62334
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Answer!
Subject: Holidays
Date: 11/23/89 Time: 16:56:40
Here's how the US of A should handle the holiday issue.
Establish a set number of holidays a year. But instead of naming them after
people give them numbers. Like number 1 through number 10. Then anyone can
celebrate any particular person they like. Voila! Nothing left to argue
about. It's so simple.
Message: 62335
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Annie
Date: 11/23/89 Time: 16:59:14
Re: "About a week ago my husband answered the phone and a guy told him he
had won $35,000!"
Some people have all the luck!
Message: 62336
Author: Tim Tam
Category: Entertainment/Movies
Subject: The Little Mermaid
Date: 11/23/89 Time: 19:22:53
Recently I went to see the movie "The Little Mermaid", and was extremely
dissappointed.....
* No sex
* No real violence
* No "Rambo" scenes
* No physical abuse etc.
* No rape scenes
What do you suppose is wrong with Hollywood these days?!
T.T.
Message: 62337
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: Answer!
Subject: Mike Carter/62318
Date: 11/23/89 Time: 19:55:23
Oh, how Charles Keating of you.
Message: 62338
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: War!
Subject: Thornbob
Date: 11/23/89 Time: 20:08:54
Bob, that's an unfair analysis of the situation. I don't think you'd
be calling every other historian a liar if you accepted the words of
Shenkman. Do you think Shenkman made it all up? No, he got the information
from other historians. Can you name one book or historian who gives
a contradictory story about Columbus?
Other sources about Columbus (which validate Shenkman's claims):
Irving, Washington. _The Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus_ (1828;
rpt. Twayne Publishers, 1981)
Morison, Samuel Eliot. _Admiral of the Ocean Sea_. (1942), vol. I.
Morison, Samuel Eliot. _The European Discovery of America: The Northern
Voyages_. (1971)
Einbinder, Harvey. _The Myth of the Britannica_ (1964)
As for me being "set off," I think you're making too big a deal over my
choice of message category.
Message: 62339
Author: Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: The Little Mermaid
Date: 11/23/89 Time: 22:23:00
What about that controversial nude scene where she "accidentally" looses her
shells?
Message: 62340
Author: Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann/fraud
Date: 11/23/89 Time: 22:51:17
The postal service keeps a staff of postal inspectors who investigate mail
fraud. By contrast, the phone company uses its security operatives mainly
to oversee the security of its facilities and to persue clients who don't
pay their bills.
I suggest that, since you have an address to which you are supposed to send
the money, you give this information to the postal authorities. It is
highly unlikely that the con artist is using a post office box, however.
Most likely, it is a private mail drop, which was paid for in cash, by mail,
using an alias, or a network of private mail drops which forward his mail
around to each other in a sort of shell game designed to confuse
investigators. Still, the post office may have some power in the matter.
As for the phone company, you might as well tell them too, though I doubt
that will come to anything. If he calls you back, endeavor to get his
number. A simple way to do this is to feign interest and cooperation, but
say something like "That sounds great, but I'm just leaving for the airport:
I'm attending a convention for a week, etc., can I have your number to call
you when I get to my hotel?" Chances are this won't work, but if the con
man is particularly greedy, it might. The number could help track them
down. Try to get him into YOUR confidence and wheedle as much information
as possible under various subterfuges.
Message: 62341
Author: Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann/more on fraud
Date: 11/23/89 Time: 23:08:11
If and when you or your husband speaks with him, resist the temptation to
speak in an arch tone. Try to sound neither indifferent nor completely
gullible. The idea is to sound as though you are somewhat disbelieving, but
overcome by the prospect of easy money. Put the con man on hold while you
and your husband ostensibly discuss the risk vs. the reward, but make sure
he can "overhear" the conversation -- which culminates in agreement to
cooperate with the con man, and rationalisations of the possible risks.
This is not to say that you should stand 6 inches away from the handset,
speaking in forced and stentorian tones. If you can gull the con man into
thinking he is speaking to ordinary, greedy folks, you just might lull him
into a false sense of security which will allow you to subtly pump him for
information.
Message: 62342
Author: $ Peter Petrisko
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: JEFF/BILL
Date: 11/24/89 Time: 00:34:12
Jeff - Arizona Power Exchange, eh? Please post the number.....
Bill - No, being on 8th Ave., my space won't be affected by the America West
Arena (gee, doesn't that have a nice ring to it?).
Message: 62343
Author: $ Peter Petrisko
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: CARTER
Date: 11/24/89 Time: 00:36:42
Did New Times quote you pretty accurately? I'm just curious as to what
YOU said & what they said you said.... Give us all the dirt, Mike.
Message: 62344
Author: $ James Hawley
Category: Answer!
Subject: Mike
Date: 11/24/89 Time: 00:47:42
I believe that the statute of limitation has kicked in on your crimes if
any...
Message: 62345
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann's scam
Date: 11/24/89 Time: 05:31:21
If they requested sending anything through the mails, and actually did
defraud anyone using the mails, then the postal inspectors could step in.
Otherwise, they can do nothing.
The scheme is so obviously a fraud, and since it involves interstate
transfer of funds, I'm sure that some Federal agency would be interested. If
you have names and box # or some such, the Attorney General's office might
like to look into it.
Message: 62346
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bob on Columbus
Date: 11/24/89 Time: 06:56:55
Naw! It don't make a bit of difference!
I hope you had a good turkey day too Bobby. -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 62347
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Entertainment/Movies
Subject: Tim
Date: 11/24/89 Time: 06:59:08
After reading you review on that movie - I won't go see it! Gads! NO RAMBO
scenes?? Yuk! What's Hollywood coming to? -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 62348
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jeff
Date: 11/24/89 Time: 07:00:48
Re: "What about that controversial nude scene where she accidentally looses
her shells?" --- hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 62349
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jeff/fraud
Date: 11/24/89 Time: 07:08:15
I will call both the post office and the phone company. I cringe to think
this slick character is making money off of unsuspecting people - mainly the
elderly. Speaking of the elderly - my mother-in-law is visiting for
Thanksgiving and we told her the story of the sham - instead of agreeing
that it was a sham - she said maybe it could/was legitimate and we could
lose $35.000 if we didn't send them the money! She finally did agree that it
sounded fishy - but what would have happened if they had called her and she
was alone? She's the type that buys everything from every saleman that comes
to her door whether she needs it or not! She must recieve over 20 magazines
a month!! -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 62350
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jeff/#622341
Date: 11/24/89 Time: 07:09:59
We pretty much did that Jeff. My husband played it real cool - acted
interested and greedy! -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 62351
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Politics
Subject: Ann/Holidays
Date: 11/24/89 Time: 07:40:03
Ann, you are a most confounding individual to discuss things
with. Your opinions seem to change from minute to minute: In
one message you're willing to relieve Columbus of his humanity,
in the next you want to keep the holiday honoring the "beast."
Debating you is like trying to grab Jello.
Extending your "follow his advice" argument would lead us to
cancel all holidays: If the best way to honor a person and the
ideals he or she stood for is to live according to those ideals,
why have holidays at all?
Actually, holidays should serve as important reminders of
the ideals themselves, and, in fact, they did this until the
latter half of this century when holidays began to be thought of
as paid days off. Lincoln's birthday should remind us of the
ideals of freedom and equality the man stood for and the fact
that he began the process of helping all U.S. citizens achieve
them. Labor Day should remind us that our prosperity was built
through decades of hard work and sacrifice. And so on.
It's easy for us to become distracted from these ideals, yet
it's essential that we keep them in mind if we are to preserve
our liberties. Holidays (used to) serve this purpose very well.
Message: 62352
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Entertainment/Movies
Subject: Peter/Gallery X
Date: 11/24/89 Time: 07:41:41
Well, even though I think the arena is a tremendous waste of
taxpayers' money, I hope you'll get some benefit from the
increased foot traffic in the area. -- Assuming rising land
values don't force you out.
And keep posting exhibit announcements. I want to make it
down sometime. Do you have continuing exhibits, or just
occasional performance pieces?
Message: 62353
Author: Hans Glans
Category: Sex & Love
Subject: As I said before...
Date: 11/24/89 Time: 09:23:25
That APEX group is populated with many fat women and men, and ugly women and
men. I have seen many of them. No wonder they need kinks to get their motor
running. What do you expect of a group that charges men, and lets women in
free? Singles club it's not.
Message: 62355
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Question?
Subject: Satalite dish XXXXX
Date: 11/24/89 Time: 12:19:50
Does anyone know how to set up a signal that will wreak havoc on a
mean persons 'satalite dish'? The target is a person who has thrown rocks
though my brothers windows, has broken a $700.00 photovoltaic solar panel.
Broken the tail lights on a car.... and who is very verbal with the
children. Bob has called the police....and they can do NOTHING! This
person has even said he was going to kill Bobs daughter...and the police
said if he does, then they will arrest him, but till then, they can't do a
THING! Bob took down all his Solar panels by the way... a lot of good they
do in his shed!
And every time the police leave.... over the fence comes another
rock! Grrrrrrr
Bob being into electronics would like to just jam this guys satalite
dish from time to time....and when the repair man comes...turn off the jam,
so the guy will be billed for repair to a unit that will always seem good to
the repair man.
This guy also gives beer to the little kids in the area... but the
police can't do a thing since it is his word against theirs. They want
PROOF positive.
Who was it who said 'Police protect people'? ha ha ha hahaha ha ha
And as I understand it...ALL the neighbors have called the police and filed
complaints against this family that has moved in, not just Bob.
If you can help.... send me mail... we will keep your ID top secret!
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*
Message: 62356
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: ACLU
Date: 11/24/89 Time: 12:25:41
I am currently reading a little book on the ACLU that a sometimes
disgruntle BBS user left behind after a GT one night. Is there anyone here
that is a card carrying member of the ACLU? Is there even a stand-up
supporter on this system?
Message: 62357
Author: Mike Carter
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: James on Statutes...
Date: 11/24/89 Time: 16:43:59
1 more year.
Message: 62358
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Answer!
Subject: Cliff
Date: 11/24/89 Time: 17:20:52
I support some of the actions of the ACLU.
Message: 62359
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Question?
Subject: Cliff
Date: 11/24/89 Time: 17:22:20
Well, where is my SIG?
Message: 62360
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: ACLU
Date: 11/24/89 Time: 18:06:23
I support many of their actions.
Message: 62361
Author: Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Peter
Date: 11/24/89 Time: 18:31:15
I don't have the number memorized or written down. I simply called and
listened to their spiel. However, the ad runs every Sunday in the personals
column of the Republic want ads.
Message: 62362
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Question?
Subject: JT on SIG?
Date: 11/24/89 Time: 19:12:45
Just what SIG do you wish to start? And who are your supporting
members? Like I told ZAK... You can start a SIG, but I want at least 5
other $tatus members to say they will support such a SIG.
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*
Message: 62363
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Last
Date: 11/24/89 Time: 19:21:19
I want a SIG called "JT's Personal Domain." My five charter members are
Heather Brown, Nick Ianuzzi, Paul Savage, Peter Cervelli, and David
Burkhart.
Message: 62364
Author: $ Steve MacGregor
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Personal SIG
Date: 11/24/89 Time: 21:02:19
Not much interest in the eign-Language SIG, either.
========= Pascal #(O,O)# Hoot! MacProgrammer =========
Message: 62365
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: JT?
Date: 11/24/89 Time: 21:31:47
Yes..that is well and good... have them send me mail... Just
to name five users is not what I ment. Have David Burkhart and Peter
Cervelli and so forth tell me in personal mail they intend to support and
USE your SIG. All of Zak's supporters sent me personal mail or posted it
publicly...and they were ACTIVE users. I am not trying to give you a hard
time... but I don't like the mockery of my SIG rules.
Same thing goes for MacProgrammer... if you want a eign
Language SIG.... plug it and get support... I believe you have at least
one already in B-Dog!
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*
Message: 62366
Author: $ Robert Knee
Category: Question?
Subject: ????????????????????
Date: 11/24/89 Time: 22:02:20
Is the teleological philosophy correct that one should choose his course of
action based upon what he believes would be best for society as a whole?
Message: 62367
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: Czechoslovakia
Date: 11/24/89 Time: 22:23:25
Is the Communist world collapsing? East Berlin, now in
Czechoslovakia the communist hard liners in government resign. WoW!
One after another, falling like 'Dominos'... or is this a trick?
Already President Bush is talking about HUGE spending cutbacks in defense
spending. Great if that means less taxes and the world is really getting
civilized.... However, this also fits in the 'One World Government' by the
year 2000. To accomplish this feat you realize, the West (us) must lose
some freedom, and the East must gain some freedom. After all, in a one
world government, we the 'Sheep' must be equal.
Beware of Greeks bearing gifts!
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*
Message: 62368
Author: Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Robert Knee
Date: 11/25/89 Time: 01:29:51
It depends what you mean by "best for society." What if society is corrupt
? The general answer is, no.
Message: 62369
Author: Hans Glans
Category: Politics
Subject: ACLU
Date: 11/25/89 Time: 03:00:59
I support few of their positions. They shut their mouths when it comes to
guns, but are right there if a man molests his little girls.
Warped agenda.
Message: 62370
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Politics
Subject: ACLU
Date: 11/25/89 Time: 06:06:24
Sam Steiger made probably one intelligent statement in his long and
unillustrious career. That was that the world would be better off if we
first shot all the lawyers.
I would improve on that statement only by saying that we should start with
Louis Rhoades and his gang at ACLU.
Message: 62371
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: J.T.'s SIG
Date: 11/25/89 Time: 06:08:16
Sounds like good company. I would support it Cliff.
Message: 62372
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: JT's SIG
Date: 11/25/89 Time: 07:27:43
If JT were actually willing to post messages that gave us some
insights into the goings ons back in D.C. -- that is, to actually
discuss issues, as he did in Apollo's glory days -- I'd support
his SIG and be interested in joining.
Message: 62373
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Politics
Subject: ACLU
Date: 11/25/89 Time: 07:28:10
I support the philosophy and overall activities of the ACLU,
though not every specific action it takes.
Message: 62374
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: Hans Glans
Date: 11/25/89 Time: 07:47:54
But guns do not molest or commit crimes. If you are one of those
who think we the people should be disarmed by the government, then you have
a Warped agenda.
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*
Message: 62375
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: The SYSOP Speaks
Subject: JT's SIG
Date: 11/25/89 Time: 07:54:54
Well, I do have four users who have posted in one way or another
that they would indeed support a SIG such as s Personal Domain.
Is there anymore.... I only need ONE more to start things in motion.
They are: Todd Reese, Nick Ianuzzi, Paul Savage, Bill Burkett
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*
Message: 62376
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Savage
Date: 11/25/89 Time: 08:45:34
Steiger also said, "To be or not to be, that is the question."
Message: 62377
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Answer!
Subject: Robert Knee
Date: 11/25/89 Time: 08:45:59
It depends whether you're a deontologist like Kant or a consequentialist
like Barb.
Message: 62378
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bill/holidays
Date: 11/25/89 Time: 11:02:10
Sorry Bill to be so confusing and contradictory. I was only joking about
that beast Columbus and I do not want to see the his holiday taken away,
because even if he was a beast, he did do much in his time.
I'm for holidays - the way you put them. We need to be reminded, your right.
I just did not like how we were blackmailed re: MLK or how holidays are
seemingly nothing anymore but paid day's off. -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 62379
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff/your brother
Date: 11/25/89 Time: 11:10:43
He might try what Whitey did one time to get even --- when he was a kid,
some mean guy shot his dog - saying it killed his chickens. It didn't
because it was a pup and didn't go away from the house. But no matter - the
guy did this sort of thing all the time and the police would do nothing. So
- Whitey just damaged this guy's tires for years afterwards! Just at random,
nothing steady. He'd shoot them - stab them or just let the air out. I guess
this went on until he joined the navy. Also, one time at an un-fairness, he
put limburger cheese on some guys radiator. It actually ruined the car!
You are right - the police won't do a thing until they get proof.
-=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 62382
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff on JT
Date: 11/25/89 Time: 11:51:46
I'm for him having a sig. as long as I have entrence. -=*) ANN (*=-
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