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Apollo BBS Archive - November 4, 1988
Message: 4611
Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: W. Yellowstone
Date: 10/31/88 Time: 21:25:35
Been there many times ......
Used to hitch hike to West Yellowstone from Bozeman. Would spend the weekend
there and hope I would get a ride back to Bozeman in time for my next class.
Did quite a bit of cliff climbing in Yellowstone. Yellowstone holds the
famous cliff that I fell off of ...... the very same cliff that ended my
cliff climbing career.
Anyone care for a tour? $500.00 .......
Even went to the 'Woodstock' of the West in West Yellowstone only to
find out that the locals canceled the event ..... Boo Hoo. Very hard
hitch-hiking at that time. My beautiful legs were the only things
that got me to Bozeman in time for classes.
The only cliffs I climb now are ...... well you know .......
Message: 4612
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Last....
Subject: Sandy Lies
Date: 10/31/88 Time: 23:03:24
She can't even spell Bozeman, and she claims to have gone to school there.
Message: 4614
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Sandy/yellowstone
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 09:08:16
I once petted a bear somewhere in Yellowstone in the part that is in
Wyoming. My husband almost had a heart attack and wanted to spank me! That's
OK - he's just jealous. I have a hand that has petted a Hippo - a Tiger - a
Lion - Ostrich and a Condor! There used to be this zoo in Calif. that you
could get fairly close to the animals. Once I was caught in the elephant
house petting one of them. I had climbed over a chain across the entrance. I
thought they were going to throw us out. My husband didn't speak to me the
rest of the day for that one. Now, all the zoos protect the animals from the
humans! Bah! Once, we lived in a remote section of Escondido Calif. and two
rattle snakes were in our donkey's pen. Whitey captured them and put the in
a cage. I wouldn't leave them alone - kept poking my hand in there trying to
touch them (to say my hand touched a rattler too!) - so he had to let them
go far away from the house. Yeah - I know I'm strange! All animals facinate
me and I want to 'touch' them. =+= ANN =+=
Message: 4615
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Chris
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 09:39:11
Chris..in the real world when you go [V]ote, there are no such
things as "Non-Of-The-Above" choices on the ballots...
I am getting a little fed up with you complaining on EVERYTHING!
As I was doing it..I UPLOAD the [V]ote as it is sent to me by the USERS,
EXACTLY as they worded it.
*=* SYSOP Cliff *=*
Message: 4616
Author: $ Gary Jones
Category: Politics
Subject: last
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 13:11:42
Cliff, I won't "get" to vote for DeConcini *or* DeGreen or the other two
political freaks, since I don't live in that congressional district. How
about a choice for "I can't vote because.......?"
Message: 4617
Author: $ Gary Jones
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Soviets/getting high
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 13:13:54
Stating that "everyone" wants to get high is wishful thinking. If the
average Soviet citizen were polled on whether he/she wants to get high on
anything, the results would not be unanimous by any means.
Message: 4618
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: Answer/Gary
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 13:49:18
I did NOT write the [V]ote.... When someone sends me a question
they want asked... I post it EXACTLY as they send it to me. Whom am I to
edit their questions... If you don't like the question...then use the option
bort...and do not [V]ote!
I do understand however.....
*=* SYSOP Cliff *=*
Message: 4619
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Jones
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 18:23:55
Arizona has more than one congressional district.
Message: 4620
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Politics
Subject: votes
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 18:43:25
If you don't [V]ote, though, you can't see the score.
Message: 4621
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: last...
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 19:59:01
If I don't post anymore [V]otes, you can't see the score either.... So What!
*=* SYSOP Cliff *=*
Message: 4622
Author: $ Chris Neal
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Cliff
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 21:18:53
Why are you in such a bad mood anyways? I made it has a SUGGESTION and I
would also like to see the rest of my 'complaints'. I try to make
suggestions, not COMPLAINTS...
I am sure that when someone came up with the [V]ote idea it wasn't a
COMPLAINT then, and saying something to IMPROVE something already in
existance makes is a SUGGESTION!
The bad thing about the Vote right now is that not many people
particapate(sp) and atleast I expressed an interest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
----------=============*******>CHRIS<*******=============------114/18.8
Message: 4623
Author: $ Chris Neal
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: $TATU$ Voting
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 21:21:37
I think tthat there should be a 'Does not apply' catagory for ALL votes.
----------=============*******>CHRIS<*******=============------114/18.8
Is this better?????????????
Message: 4624
Author: $ David Burkhart
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Vote
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 21:35:13
Hey, how come Pete Wilson wasn't listed?
That's who I plan to vote for.
Gary: what do you mean you don't live in that district? This is a SENATE
race, you bozo. I don't live in the state, so I can't vote for them, but if
you live in Arizona, you can.
Message: 4625
Author: $ Todd Reese
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Ann
Date: 11/02/88 Time: 11:51:07
I hear you've had your hands on a lot of snakes.
Message: 4626
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: The Vote
Date: 11/02/88 Time: 22:41:07
Burkett also forgot to list George McGovern
Message: 4627
Author: $ Ralph Blehm
Category: Politics
Subject: Pay
Date: 11/03/88 Time: 06:24:22
Bush owes the taxpayers of the U. S. about a years pay.
He has not been doing his job since he started to run for
office, so he should not be paid for a job undone.
Dukakis owes the state of Massachusetts his pay for the
same reasons.
Senators and Congressmen get paid for being in
Washington, but take time away from their office to go on
speaking tours, which they get paid for. That is double
dipping.
If we were absent form our jobs for the length of time
our elected officials are, we would not get paid, and perhaps
would not have a job. That is all but J. T..
=)) SHOOT THEM ALL RALPH ((=
Message: 4628
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Ralph/last
Date: 11/03/88 Time: 09:02:00
I agree with that 100% - also what you macro said! Ha. =+= ANN =+=
Message: 4629
Author: $ David Burkhart
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Ralph
Date: 11/04/88 Time: 00:36:57
Of course he's been doing his job. He's been doing it more than ever, since
he's gone to every event that a Vice President might have some duty to
attend. He's also constantly been in contact with the White House, in case
anything happens. And his only other duty is to break ties in the Senate,
and he's been available for that.
Message: 4630
Author: $ Ralph Blehm
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Last
Date: 11/04/88 Time: 05:39:08
If that is all he has to do then he is very much overpaid.
Ralph
Message: 4632
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Vice Presidents
Date: 11/04/88 Time: 07:46:23
It is said that a woman gave birth to twin boys.
One left home, and the other became vice-president.
Neither has ever been heard from since.
Message: 4633
Author: $ Todd Reese
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Governors of Mass.
Date: 11/04/88 Time: 12:44:35
It's also said that when Michael Dukakis' immigrant mother gave birth to
him, the doctor pronounced him a boy. Young Mike immediately yelled at the
doctor, "Don't label me!"
Creative Corner Bulletin Board command:$C
Message: 1134
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: last...
Date: 10/29/88 Time: 21:54:16
He uses Mopar... he ain't all bad!
*=* SYSOP Cliff *=*
Message: 1135
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Review/Critique
Subject: NASA ART SHOW
Date: 10/30/88 Time: 09:00:32
The Mesa Southwest Museum (834-2230) has a wonderful, if somewhat
small, exhibit of paintings from NASA's art collection. It'll be on display
through January 15th, 1989.
It's a must see for all space junkies! Well worth the drive, even
from the west Valley.
Message: 1136
Author: $ Alan Hamilton
Category: Answer!
Subject: Rod
Date: 10/31/88 Time: 08:45:44
Wherever I go, there I am.
/
/ * / Alan
* *
Message: 1139
Author: $ Todd Reese
Category: Kontest
Subject: Halloween
Date: 10/31/88 Time: 12:48:49
____ ___
( ) / \
/\ ( ) | |
/ \ (____) __ | | _
/ \_ /\ / \| |/ \
/ \ / \ | | | |
____/ \__/ \_____________| | |_________
| | ____|
_/| |____ |
< ^|/ -Ow ow owwww | |
/\ / | | |
|| / | | |
||/ | | |
|______|_, | |
| |
Happy Halloween from the Desert | |
Message: 1140
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Review/Critique
Subject: Todd/your drawing
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 09:13:16
Very good! Why don't you draw here more often. Didn't know you had so much
talent. However - you were a little late for the Kontest fellow.
Loved your coyote! =+= ANN =+=
Message: 2253
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Up Yours
Subject: Rod
Date: 11/02/88 Time: 22:26:39
But Rod, when all the Christians you hate so much leave into eternity
with God their (and your) creator, he'll be giving you exactly what you
want in the first place!
Total , eternal abscence of anything to do with him or his creation.
To put it bluntly, you'll be left with a huge mass of souls with likes
similar to yours.
Only you'll have to go about doing without anything good from God.
Sounds like a pit of fire to me.
-mike
Message: 2254
Author: $ Chris Neal
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: The Prince of Darkne
Date: 11/02/88 Time: 23:40:46
I saw _The_Prince_of_Darkness_ again, and every time you watch it it gets
better. After watching it, if you sit back and say, "What if this is really
true?". The movie is portrayed SO LIFELIKE that it really isn't funny!
----------=============*******>CHRIS<*******=============------114/18.8
Message: 2255
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Question ?
Subject: Chris/movie
Date: 11/03/88 Time: 09:11:19
The Prince of darkness - is that the one about the old church and the devil
in the basement trying to get into the world? He almost makes it through the
mirror? If so - I've seen it three times. It's OK. I liked the Omen series
better though. I just saw the Unholy - it was fair - the demon wasn't so
hot. They could have done better on the makeup - he looked like a rubber
model! Any comments on other pictures? =+= ANN =+=
Message: 2256
Author: $ Chris Neal
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: Ann/Movies
Date: 11/03/88 Time: 14:40:19
I haven't seen teh _Unholy_ yet. Have you seen
_The_Senventh_Son_of_the_Seventh_Sun_? I haven't but I heard it was good.
_The_Princess_Bride_ was kinda of stupid but it was funny at points. I have
_Hellraiser_, but haven't watched it yet... The movie _The_BIg_Easy_ was
your basic everyone knows everyone else 'Cop Movie'.
----------=============*******>CHRIS<*******=============------114/18.8
Message: 2257
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: Chris/movies
Date: 11/04/88 Time: 06:38:53
One movie I rented recently was E.T. and that was thoughly enjoyable. I wish
the movie makers would take more note that a movie like this brings in the
moolah - yet there is no violence or sex. It had a couple of flaws however.
Here again it shows kids have more sense than adults. And it showed 'good
teenagers'! Hahahahahah - is there such a thing? See you later =+= ANN =+=
Message: 2258
Author: $ Todd Reese
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: Prince of Darkness
Date: 11/04/88 Time: 12:48:31
Cheap horror flick. A poor production by John Carpenter.
There is no further discussing it.
Message: 2259
Author: $ Chris Neal
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: Ann/Movies
Date: 11/04/88 Time: 13:44:45
Yeah, my dad bought it for my two little sisters for about 16.99. He also
bought Cinderella 19.99.
----------=============*******>CHRIS<*******=============------114/18.8
Message: 2260
Author: $ Todd Reese
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: last
Date: 11/04/88 Time: 15:42:47
Yeah, I'll bet. He bought Cinderella for YOU, didn't he?
Bulletin Board command:$C
Message: 55017
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: Rod #55015
Date: 10/29/88 Time: 21:56:04
I find myself actually agreeing with Rod on Politics.... Naaaaa
*=* SYSOP Cliff *=*
Message: 55018
Author: Apro Poet
Category: Tales & Tall Stories
Subject: Tru Fax
Date: 10/29/88 Time: 22:37:23
Jefferson, Indiana's *Evening News* reported that Thomas
Bond, a Louisville, Kentucky, man, was found shot in the
parking lot of Clark County Airport. Bond, according to the
paper, was listed in serious condition at Humana Hospital.
The story appeared under the headline "Louisville Man Is
Found Dead at Clark County Airport."
This sentence appeared in the *Los Angeles Times*:
"Engineers surveying for a railroad in northern Turkestan
have uncovered the skeleton of a massive saurian (lizard)
that must have passed away 5,000,000 years ago last Friday."
A clipping from an unnamed Pennsylvania newspaper reported
that "Superintendent Patton, of the Pittsburgh Division of
the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad, has given notice to the
shopmen of this division of the B&O that drunkenness will be
sufficient grounds for dismissal as well as the dismissal of
all other employees."
Highfields Home, a nursing facility in Newent,
Gloucestershire, required the daughter of a deceased
ninety-three-year-old man to pay his last month's rent
because the rules say residents who want to leave must give
one month's notice, *Today*
So if Silly Putty comes in an egg, what does Serious Putty
come in? A little briefcase?
Those police doctors just couldn't seem to understand how
important it is to conserve gasoline. I mean, why else does
anyone drive around town in reverse?
Don't you just hate it when you have to sue a guy for
wrapping his face around your fist and then he has the gall
to file a countersuit? Especially after letting him pay for
his stupid bodywork. Especially after you went to all the
trouble to shove his car onto his own side of the earth in
the first place.
I think we could all learn a lot from a debate between
Charles Manson and Peewee Herman on Geraldo's show.
I think we should continue the policy of referring the
most serious problems to the guys who "frankly find the whole
situation amusing."
So this guy wants to sell me some slightly-used fireworks.
Waddaya think?
Message: 55020
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Politics
Subject: Taranto
Date: 10/30/88 Time: 03:07:58
There are two major flaws in your argument. First, there is no more reason
to expect the Democrats to wise up after this Republican landslide than
there was after the last one or the one before that. They still believe
that America is on a temporary selfishness kick and will come back to them
and beg their forgiveness anytime now.
Second, you assume (due to what might be called the Republican conceit)
that Americans are not interested in economic and personal freedom and that
they are well aware of the Libertarian platform, but would rather have more
government control instead.
If Americans really were distressed by "permissiveness" (implying
that all aspects of life should be judged upon by government and then some
of them "permitted" if the government feels like it) then every last
one of them would have signed up to be Republicans and voted for Pat
Robertson for President. If there are "Reagan Democrats" there is a reason
why they are not "Reagan Republicans", and that reason could very well be
that they are voting for the lesser of two evils in order to get economic
relief, while remaining Democrats out of disagreement with the Republican
party's social conservatism and religious influences. In this case they are
more in agreement with the whole thrust of the Libertarian Party than either
of the others.
As the Libertarian Party becomes more visible and attracts more people,
they will have an influence on the party. If they find a few of its
positions as unpalatable as you do, then the platform will naturally evolve
from year to year as the makeup of the party grows to encompass a larger
segment of the population and a wider range of experience. An American who
prizes personal and economic freedom has the chance to do something about
it right now, by bringing the party up to that point where other people
will know what it stands for and see that it is moving in the right
direction and worth consideration.
The existance of a party which advocates the maximum freedom possible
for each of us can only be a benefit, even if it does not become the party
in power.
See You Later
Dean H.
Message: 55022
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Sandy/your kids
Date: 10/30/88 Time: 08:18:41
Your little angels are SOOOO good it's unbelievable and it would be hard to
picture them 'foul mouthed' - 'drunk as a skunk' - 'stealing from your
purse' - 'stealing from the store' - 'becoming so self centered' - quitting
school to become a street person ' - and telling you to go to hell when you
ask them to take out the trash! But it can and does happen to the best,
sweetest of kids unfortunately. Remember I told you my grandkids went to
that private church school? - well the paster's son turned out the worst of
the bunch and he was an angel too. The school was very small and out of the
6 boys that graduated with my eldest grandson, 2 went on to be fairly stable
people, went out and got jobs while still going to school, would never do
the above things to their parents and finished school. Bob could be right
about having a father influence around, but I doubt that'll make too much
difference - my daughter, had their father around until they were about 15
years old and it still did no good. Teenagers have been noted for going kind
of crazy in those years - but not like this generation has become. I think
one of the major contributing factor's is the movies of today! I know JT
will not agree with that - but I still believe it. I have 4 major movie
channels and any day of the week I can turn them on and chances are a movie
about some teenager will be on - they build atom bombs - use computer's to
get into government records - fight Rambo type wars and always win - their
parents NEVER understands them and the teen always goes above their wishes
and comes out a hero. The parents are ALWAYS depicted as loud mouthed half
wits that could never understand their children - the father always has a
beer in his hand and the mother is a wimp that
cowtows to her over bearing husband. The kid (knowing whats best) goes out
and does what he pleases and it usually turns out swell for him. This is
sheer fantasy but the kids don't know it if their filled with it day after
day with the movies and TV. Movies such as the Friday the 13th 1 - 7 series.
It depicts kids barely out of highschool - going to some remote retreat with
beautiful girls that 'put' out at the drop of a hat. Of course, the teens
want this - but it also is fantasy. Ditto the movies like Red Dawn - the
Last Star Fighter - Christine - the Lampoon movies - the Nerds movies etc.
etc. No wonder our teens go crazy - they are living 'blah' lives in
comparison - going to school, doing homework and helping around the house!
But that is real life and it only goes on being an adult - working for a
living, cooking and cleaning etc. There are very few Rambo types around. But
teens can't see the difference between truth and fantasy some times - most
adults can. I will always believe the movies have influenced our lives
greatly - look at the difference in the moral's of the stories of the old
movies and the movies of today. =+= ANN =+=
Message: 55024
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Hathaway
Date: 10/30/88 Time: 09:19:43
Libertarianism as an intellectual movement has certainly had an influence.
But in the political realm, most of this influence has manifested itself in
the Republican Party. The Libertarian Party is of trivial importance, and
is likely to remain so.
Your arguments are contrary to fact, and this is not mitigated by your
pathetic attempts at humor. What are the issues that have given Bush a
decisive lead over Dukakis? In rough order of importance: crime, the
Pledge of Allegiance, defense, taxes. Bush's opposition to new taxes is the
only one of these which can be regarded as a libertarian position. On
crime, the most potent of Bush's issues, there is no discernable libertarian
position. The Pledge of Allegiance is symbolic of the "social issues" I
discussed earlier, on which the Libertarian message of permissiveness is
intellectually appealing, but will not sell to voters. On defense, the
Libertarians are much closer to Dukakis than to Bush.
Dukakis has even had some marginal success at opposing Bush's economic
message. Bush's message is still far more powerful, but mostly for
pragmatic reasons: free-market policies have worked wonderfully for the
last eight years, and Dukakis can't run against prosperity.
There is simply no evidence that the American people subscribe to a
radically libertarian ideology, and your argument, which consists of asking
"wouldn't it be nice if they did?" is unconvincing.
Message: 55025
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: Libertarians
Date: 10/30/88 Time: 11:12:23
If it were not for the "permissiveness" issue and the fact that I do
not believe the "INCOME TAX" can be repealed without disastrous results.
I myself would probably support the Libertarian Party. I realize the
current 'War on Drugs' is not working. I also do not understand how the
government and military would work without Income Tax.... Money has got to
come from someplace. The Government/Military is one big employer, and you
are not going to get enough "Voluntary" tax payers... ??
I do like the Libertarians: We oppose all government WELFARE, RELIEF
PROJECTS, and "AID TO THE POOR" programs. All these government programs are
privacy-invading, paternalistic, demeaning, and inefficient.
I do like their platform on "The Right of Property", Freedom of
Communication, Schooling, and even their cute idea of "Non Of Thr Above"
proposal for ballots.
Jim is correct, A lot of what they say makes sence.... BUT, I do
not like Ron Paul...he is a jerk and I just won't buy the "permissiveness"
stand of theirs.
Till they fix the flaws, stay "MAINSTREAM America" and Vote
Republican!
*=* SYSOP Cliff *=*
Message: 55027
Author: $ Jim Lippard
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: 55025/Lib Plat
Date: 10/30/88 Time: 11:35:06
I downloaded it successfully.
Income tax accounts for about 40% of the (bloated) federal budget. This
country survived most of its history without income tax, it can continue to
survive without it.
I would agree that an overnight repeal would cause some short-term
difficulty, but these could be eased by phasing it out--say, by reducing the
tax rates to zero over several years.
Message: 55028
Author: Apro Poet
Category: Tales & Tall Stories
Subject: Tru Fax
Date: 10/30/88 Time: 13:08:03
Under the headline "City Sued Over Police Age Limit," the
*Beaufort Gazette* of South Carolina published this story:
"San Francisco - The federal government has sued the city
of San Francisco f? had warnings from him to bring a case
against the provocative Galilean, or to be ousted.
"They were in a tight spot. 'What are we to do?' one
worried. Considering the public emotions and their own
preoccupations with protecting their status, they were thrown
into a fretful bind.
"Rome's military regime, dominating a land that seethed
with rebellious fevers and resentments at the alien
conqueror, would brook no agitation that might get out of
hand."
In Providence, Rhode Island, the state Conflict of Interest
Commission fined a man who had been dead for two years five
hundred dollars for failing to submit financial disclosure
forms. The commission was rushing to clear a backlog of
cases. *Boston Globe*
A week after dying of a cerebral hemorrhage, Bronx District
Attorney Mario Merola overwhelmingly won reelection in New
York City. *San Jose Mercury News*
Mario Garcia, a resident of Tulare, California, had been
unable to collect her tax refund of $648. After five months'
correspondence, the IRS finally explained the refund had not
been sent because Garcia is dead. "This is the first year
they have owed me money," said Garcia, who maintains she paid
federal taxes for years with no problems. "Talking to them
is like talking to a brick wall." *San Francisco Examiner*
Police visited Sue Miles, a landlady in Reigate, Surrey,
to tell her about the death of Chris Smale, her lodger. As
they were speaking, a radio message interrupted to state that
Smale was still alive. The police left, then returned a half
hour later to say Smale was dead after all. A half hour
after that, the local hospital called and reported that Smale
was doing well in intensive care. Mr. Smale died thirty-six
hours later at the hospital. *Today*
In Charles Town, West Virginia, a man arrived at a
convenience store an hour before the normal 5:00 A.M. opening
time. When clerks refused to unlock the door for him, the
man pulled out a handgun and shot out the glass door. Once
inside the store, he picked up a can of STP Oil Treatment,
paid for it at the counter, then left. *Trentonian*
Message: 55030
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rod
Date: 10/30/88 Time: 14:54:02
Re: "My children have NO religious training."
I thought you said once a long time ago that you were originally a Christian
and had traditional family values. That why, you said, you named one of
your older daughters Christian??
Then later on you *really* saw the light and dumped the whole religious
scene? Am I wrong; did you really say that? If you did, then your children
did at one time have *some* religious training. And your daughter,
Christian, was, if not still, a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Just thought I'd ask.
Message: 55031
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann
Date: 10/30/88 Time: 15:02:21
I can sure agree with you about the movies. We as a family used to
really enjoy going to the movies. It was a family thing. We would all get
popcorn and pop, watch the movie and have a good time. Now most of the
movies are "R" rated. I confess, I have seen a few, but I shouldn't have.
They were so full of sex, violence, etc. Now we still go to the movies on
occasion. But we usually draw the line at PG. The present "PG-13" movies
are what the "R"'s used to be. If you want to know what the future
generation will be like, watch a few "R" movies. I keep waiting for the
pendulum to swing back in the other direction. Do you think it will make
it?
Message: 55032
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: the other 60%
Date: 10/30/88 Time: 16:01:56
Jim, where does the other 60% come from? That is an awful large
amount to just "Print Money".
*=* SYSOP Cliff *=*
Message: 55035
Author: $ Jim Lippard
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: 55032/other 60%
Date: 10/30/88 Time: 17:36:09
Comes from other taxes, fees, and tariffs.
Message: 55036
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: Jim on other 60%
Date: 10/30/88 Time: 19:05:05
Be a little more specific... That is a LOT of tax... Much larger
than the 40% you claim that comes from INCOME tax... To me, INCOME tax is
the biggest chunk on my income.
What I am getting at....people (Ron Paul?) always say OTHER... but
fail to explain what this is. Of course you see this "OTHER" would have to
be raised to equal the total needed... so you would pay it anyway????
*=* SYSOP Cliff *=*
Message: 55039
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Politics
Subject: Cliff/RPaul
Date: 10/30/88 Time: 22:27:54
Hello,
I would be interested in knowing what makes you dislike Ron Paul. In
reading his work and speaking to him I didn't find anything to dislike
and I wonder if you have information that I do not, or reacted differently
to something than I did.
See You Later
Dean H.
Message: 55040
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Politics
Subject: Taranto
Date: 10/30/88 Time: 22:29:27
When you say, "Your arguements are contrary to fact, and this is not
mitigated by your pathetic attempts at humor.", are you saying that you
have factual proof that the Democratic leadership will be changed after
this election? I notice that their brilliant last ditch campaign tactic
unveiled today consists of admitting that they are liberals and damn
proud of it. Are you saying that you have absolute proof that the
"Reagan Democrats" still being Democrats after all these years does not
indicate any dissatisfaction with the Republican social agenda? Are you
saying that you have factual proof that the Libertarian Party will not
continue to grow until it becomes a major player in American politics?
I could certainly understand you disagreeing with my opinions, but I
see no excuse for a statement in which your own guesswork about current
motivations and future events is billed as FACT!
Maybe you meant to say, "Your arguements are contrary to mine, and I
don't find them humorous."
See You Later
Dean H.
Message: 55041
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Answer!
Subject: Dean...
Date: 10/30/88 Time: 22:57:29
I guess it is his attatude or thoughts about opening our boarders to
all and anyone that wants in...that I do *NOT* like. I think we should
take care of the people we have now first and only!
I may have overstated the fact I don't like him... It's probably I
just can not picture him as President of the U.S. of A.
*=* SYSOP Cliff *=*
Message: 55042
Author: Mike Cormier
Category: Sex & Love
Subject: AIDS/GAY--DEAD WRONG
Date: 10/31/88 Time: 00:06:03
I JUST READ A MEASAGE WITH A LOT OF RELIGIOUS STUFF IN IT SAYING AMONG OTHER
THINGS, THAT AIDS IS BASICALY STILL A HOMOSEXAUL DISEASE.
I'M NOT INTERESTED IN INTERFERING WITH YOU RELIGIOUS BELIEFS.. NOR AM I
VERY TOLERANT OF OTHERS DOINGSO ALTHOUGH I DONT SHARE THEM..
BUT WHEN IT COMMESS TO YOUR MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT AIDS I FEEL THERE ARE A FEW
THINGS YOU BETTER KNOW.. THEY NOT ONLY EFFECTT YOUR LIFE BUT POSIBLY THE
LIVES OF OTHERS... PERRHAPS THOSE WHO ARE DEAREST TO YOU...
FIRST AIDS HAS *NEVER* BEEN A "HOMOSEXUAL DISEASE" THIS GOT STARTED
BECAUSE THE FIRST VICTIMS *IN THIS COUNRTY** WERE HOMOSEXUALS.. THE
UNBELIEVABLE IRRESPONSIBLITY OF THE MEDIA IN EVEN STRESSING THIS ISS
INNEXCUSABLE... THE HETROSEXUAL ("NORMAL") PEOPLE WHO HAVE CAUGHT AIDS FROM
AN ENCOUNTER WITH SOMONE OF THE OPOSITE SEX AND ARE COMMING DOWN WITH IT NOW
CAUGHT IT ABOUT 5 YEARS AGO. WHEN IT WAS FIRST BEING DESCRIBED AS A GAY
DISSEASE. IN OTHER COUNTRIES MOST OF THE VICTIMS WERE HETROSEXUAL.... AND
WEVE KNOWN THIS "GAY DISEASE" BIT TO BE INACURATE LONGER THAN WEVE KNOWN IT
WAS A VIRUS THAT CAUSES IT.
(I'M NOT ALTOGETHER CONVINCED IT WASN'T MAN MADE , BUT THAT'S PURE
SPECULATION ON MY PART).
THE POINT I'M TRING TO MAKE HERE IS THAT ANY HOPE OF KEEPING THIS IN THE
SO-CALLED "HIGH RISK" GROUP, WENT OUT THE WINDOW WHEN MICONCEPTIONS LIKE
YOURS, WERE GIVEN TO YOU ..
IF YOU THINK YOU ARE AT ANY LESS RISK OF CATCHING AIDS TODAY BECAUSE YOU ARE
HETROSEXUAL YOU'RE WRONG,, PLEASE DON'T COMPOUND THAT BY *THINKING* YOU'RE
SAFE.
Message: 55043
Author: $ Jim Lippard
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff/taxes
Date: 10/31/88 Time: 00:14:08
Would I be willing to pay more in other forms of tax in order to maintain
the same level of spending? Absolutely not, because I advocate a drastic
reduction in spending to accompany reductions in taxes. I think more than
50% of present federal government spending is for programs that the
government should not be in the business of providing.
The federal government charges fees for such things as passports and
licenses, taxes on interstate commerce, tariffs on imports and exports, and
so on. The government also makes "revenue" from loans (an area I left out
on my list of the sources of government's revenue aside from income tax).
I don't think the "OTHER" would need to be raised to meet the "total
needed", because I think the "total needed" is less than the amount that the
"OTHER" is presently providing.
Message: 55045
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Politics
Subject: Taxes
Date: 10/31/88 Time: 05:28:58
One fact is sure, and becomes more obvious almost daily.
After 8 years of Reaganomic defecit spending, whoever becomes our next
president is going to be faced with the FACT of raising taxes.
Any candidate who denies this, and who stands in the face of facts and
adamantly states "read my lips,,no new taxes!" is a liar, pure and simple.
Vote for Bush/Quayle/Snow White/Cinderella and other fairy tales.
Message: 55046
Author: $ Alan Hamilton
Category: Politics
Subject: Dean/Libertarians
Date: 10/31/88 Time: 08:44:11
What you don't realize are that many people don't see the government
intruding into their lives as long as the restrictions imposed are on things
that they wouldn't do anyway. I honestly believe that a signifigant number
of people would favor abolishing freedom of religion if they could be
assured that their own religion would become the official state religion. I
am afraid that there are a lot of hypocrites out there.
As I have said before, there's a lot that I like about the Libertarians,
but there's a lot that I don't like, too.
And in regard to taxes, what difference does it make whether I'm taxed
via income, excise, sales, or whatever? Taxes is taxes. I don't see
anything magical about income taxes. An overall reduction in taxes, due to
reduction in spending, would be nice, but I don't care which tax in
particular is reduced.
/
/ * / Alan
* *
Message: 55047
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Politics
Subject: SENATE RACE
Date: 10/31/88 Time: 08:50:31
The presidential race for Arizona's electoral votes is pretty well
settled. Bush is far enough ahead to satisfy me it's safe to vote for Ron
Paul, Libertarian, without running the risk of Dukakis getting the state's
votes.
But, what's everyone planning to do with the U.S. Senate race? The
contest there is rather dismal. Do we go with DeConcini, the
go-along-to-get-along closet mainstream Democrat? Or with DeGreen, the
"What-Me-Worry?" Republican? Or Ed "Please just give me a job!" Finklestein
of the New Alliance Party? Or Rick Thompkins, the Libertarian absolutely no
one in the press is paying any attention to?
Personally, I'd like to vote for Thompkins, but I'm really rather
see just about anyone beat DeConcini and think DeGreen has the best shot at
that.
How 'bout a [V]ote, Cliff? I'll upload one for you.
Message: 55048
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: News Today
Subject: The paper
Date: 10/31/88 Time: 09:40:51
Now that the election is drawing near - the paper is, expectedly so, full of
Bush & Ducakis - everything from small sentences to big columns - written by
Democrats and Republicians - Liberals and Conservatives- the average voter
to the non voter - but one thing really stands out - 99% of these columns
are not complimentary to either candidate - be it written by a Republican
talking about Bush or a Democrat talking about Dukakis. They used words
like - 'Clowns' - 'liars' - 'evasion of issues' and 'incompetence' a lot.
This tells me that the average person is not happy with their candidate - so
why are you going to vote for them?
* Vote Libertarian *
Message: 55049
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bob-the movies
Date: 10/31/88 Time: 09:55:57
I will admit to liking all the junk movies - the bloodier, gorier, the
better! I love it when Rambo blasts everyone away - or Charles Bronson - or
when Jason comes back once again to use a axe on everybody - BUT - I know
that is fantasy. Children do not if they are fed nothing but stuff like
that. The movie studios are just about producing nothing but that along with
lots of sex - teen heros and non true to life stories. The above mentioned
movies should be but a small part of the movies produced yearly - not the
norm. I believe they should show real life heros that the kids can use as
role models and yes, us to. Take the movie 'It's a Wonderful LIfe' with
Jimmy STewert - except for the fantasy part about the angel - it was true to
life and happiness is always right in front of our nose now. It made you
fell good after watching it and thankful. It showed caring and love - living
daily the way it is. The same with Lost Horizons - the moral was everyone is
looking for their Shangrala and it's found here and now within ourselves!
Happiness, love, family, love of country etc. should be the norm of the
movies - after all - that IS live - not strapping on 2 tons of weapons and
blasting away an entire army in 5 minutes! =+= ANN =+=
Message: 55050
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: Jim/other revenue
Date: 10/31/88 Time: 10:11:39
I agree totaly there are too many things that the government is
involved in that it has no business being in. I am for the abolishment of
OSHA and EPA for instance.... I agree the amount of money needed should be
a lot less. However, I am NOT for a reduction of military readiness for
example... And I think Social Security is a joke as well.... But if they
abolish Social Security, what happends to my investment of 25 years?
*=* SYSOP Cliff *=*
Message: 55051
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: Paul/55045
Date: 10/31/88 Time: 10:29:08
There you go again...calling people names... Re: "LIAR"
Just maybe they HONESTLY think they can do it without more taxes...
If there are some un-needed programs.... just maybe the government will wise
up and axe them.
This is where we always get into a beef Paul... you can't talk
politics with out mud slinging.
Now if you Vote Libertarian, they plan to axe half the government
and taxes will go way down...according to them. (Note: I did not call anyone
a liar)
I recall people telling Reagan he would have to raise taxes...
notice taxes have gone down... This stimulates spending that actually
raises MORE revenue.... Raise Taxes and you may create a 'Recession' that
would lower revenue.
Now if you still feel they will have to raise taxes... you could say
that you felt they were "Mistaken"... This would be more Christian like and
less hateful!
*=* SYSOP Cliff *=*
Message: 55053
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: To all
Date: 10/31/88 Time: 10:48:54
___
( ) '''
( _ _ ) ''' '''
'' \\// ( <_> <_> ) \\// '' ''''''
__l__ ''' \\\/// ( _ ) \\\/// '__ ' __'
l ''' ' \ \ ( (_) ) / / '' <_> '<_>'
======== ' '' ' \ \___\ \ __/ / ''' '____' ''
/l \ ''' '''' \______\ \ __/ '' ( ' ')'''
/ l \ '' ' '' \ \ '' ' '' ''
l l R. I. P.l '''' ) ) ''ll''
l l l ll / / ll
l l l ll ( ( ll
l l l\\\\ll////_______\\//_____\_\\//_\____\\//_____\\ll//_____
l l JASON l \ \
l l l * * ) )
l l l * l / / /
l l---------l\ \ l / \ \
l_l --- ---_\_///__//__\l/__///____////____\/__//____/__///__
(-- -- --- ----- -- ------ -- ----- -- ---- __________)
( -- ----- - - ----- -- -- - __________)
(___________________________________)
l_l ___ __ __ _ _ l_l ___ _ _ __ __ __ _
l l l-l l__)l__) \\// l l l_l l l (__) \/\/ l_ l_ l\ /
l l l l ll l l l_ l_ l_ l_ l \/
Message: 55058
Author: $ Jim Lippard
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: 55050
Date: 10/31/88 Time: 16:28:28
(Most) Libertarians are not in favor of a reduction of military readiness
either--they are opposed to wasteful military spending and paying for the
defenses of other nations which are quite capable of paying for their own
defense.
Abolishing Social Security would have the same result to most people as
not abolishing Social Security--you'll never see a penny of your
"investment". But the sooner it's abolished, the sooner the theft is ended.
Some advocate that the government maintain payments to those already
receiving Social Security on the grounds that the government has, through
its promises, made people dependent on it. That is reasonable, though
people who don't need it to live on should be cut off (at the time of
abolition).
Message: 55059
Author: $ Jim Lippard
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: 55045
Date: 10/31/88 Time: 16:31:21
For every tax increase, the government just increases spending more. Anyone
who thinks that a tax increase will stop deficit spending is believing
another fairy tale.
There will be no elimination of the deficit without cutting spending.
Message: 55060
Author: $ Jim Lippard
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Burkett/Senate race
Date: 10/31/88 Time: 16:33:24
Do you have any idea what the polls indicate regarding DeConcini vs.
DeGreen? I heard recently that one poll shows DeGreen closing in and
another shows that he isn't.
I personally don't think anybody has a chance of beating DeConcini, so I
voted for Tompkins (absentee ballot).
Message: 55061
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: 55059/Jim
Date: 10/31/88 Time: 16:56:01
Remember, it's the Democratic Congress that has INCREASED spending.
You would need to get a Libertarian Congress in power to get all these high
minded ideas passed. No President has the power to just abolish all
existing handout programs.
Just how many Libertarians are there in Congress? How many are
running this time around? (Number of States)
Reagan would have gotten more work done had he been given a
Republican controlled Congress...
I think in another 4/8 years, the people of this nation will be more
intune to Libertarian ideas. As we have been seeing over the last decade,
there seems to be a shifting of political ideas away from the old Democratic
platform of failed politics. Some people may be calling themselves
Democrats, but they are thinking more like Republicans... next would be
Libertarians.
Of course, we have some OLD hold outs to the old ideas... But I do
not wish to say the 'P' word. That would be as bad as the 'L' word.
(almost)....
*=* SYSOP Cliff *=*
Message: 55063
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Hathaway
Date: 10/31/88 Time: 17:38:09
Let me reiterate, since you seem to be having difficulty understanding my
arguments. (1) There is no reason to assume that the Democratic Party is on
its way out as a major party, even if its national leadership continues in a
shrieky-left direction. (2) Even if the Democratic Party were to
disintigrate, there is no reason to think the Libertarian Party would
replace it as a major party, because there is no evidence that the conflict
between the liberal wing of the Democratic Party and the mainstream of
American thought is that the former supports the agenda of the Libertarian
Party while the latter doesn't.
I do not think your arguments are very serious, because they seem not to be
based upon anything more than superficial knowledge of recent presidential
campaign and wishful thinking.
Message: 55064
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Politics
Subject: Cliff/RPaul
Date: 10/31/88 Time: 18:05:13
Okay, I understand that. Keep in mind though that immigration will not be
such a burden when there are no handouts involved.
See You Later
Dean H.
Message: 55066
Author: Apro Poet
Category: Tales & Tall Stories
Subject: Tru Fax
Date: 10/31/88 Time: 18:42:12
The Reagan Administration named Texas businessman Bill
Perrin as ambassador to the troubled island nation of Cyprus,
but failed to update Perrin's biography, which was sent to
the Senate Foreign Relations Committee for approval.
Perrin's qualifications for the sensitive post included
this from the bio: "After attending Oklahoma State
University, Mr. Perrin was a produce clerk with Safeway
Foods." The bio also noted that Perrin was "comanager of
Humpty-Dumpty Supermarket in Oklahoma City." *Dallas Morning
News*
The operator of a passenger ferry between Block Island and
Point Judith, Rhode Island, ran his vessel into a sandbar and
jumped into the water while fifty passengers screamed in
protest. The operator was picked up by the Coast Guard for
questioning.
"I think what happened is he might have been stressed out,"
said a Coast Guard commander. "There's a lot of pressure
involved in the job." *(New York) Daily News*
Authorities in rural Flathead County, Montana, had their
hands full one week last December, according to the *Hungry
Horse News*. In addition to one restaurant burglary and the
theft of a television from a motel, the paper reported the
following in its "Courthouse News" column:
"A person who claimed to have gone without sleep or food
for six days was found directing traffic in Hungry Horse.
Another man, arrested on a warrant after a traffic violation,
kicked the door of his Flathead County Detention Center cell
so hard that he damaged the lock. He then tried to cut his
neck with a bit of wire he had smuggled into the jail.
"deputies found a man suspected of breaking the toilet in
the Blue Moon Nite Club's men's room last week. He
reportedly said he couldn't remember the incident but would
accept the officers' version of things and agreed to pay the
ninety-five dollars in repair costs.
"Someone stole the roadside sign from Fun Unlimited in
Columbia Falls. The sign is worth about $1,500.
"A Columbia Falls couple got into a fight when the man
accused the woman of 'lusting' during an evening at the Blue
Moon. According to the report, he hit her several times and
she left the house. When she returned a short time later,
the man threatened to shoot her and her horse.
"An eleven-year-old Kalispell girl who found her father's
marijuana stash and brought it to school was cited by the
County Juvenile Court. Her father was cited for misdemeanor
possession of dangerous drugs.
"Finally, a woman prisoner in the county jail set fire to a
roll of toilet paper. The fire alarm went off. According to
a Sheriff's (Department) spokeswoman, there was no danger,
but in the confusion of alarm bells, ringing telephones, and
arriving firemen, a jail guard missed the alarm-turnoff
button and turned on the sprinkler system instead."
From the New York *Daily News*:
"Manchester, Ohio - A gun-toting Easter bunny robbed a
convenience store of $655 after spending several minutes
convincing a woman clerk he wasn't joking, authorities said
yesterday."
Someone unbolted the double-decker hamburger from the hand
of a Big Boy restaurant statue in Iron Mountain, Michigan,
then apparently returned to take Big Boy himself. After two
days, however, Big Boy turned up in a wooded area of Niagra,
Wisconsin. *Detroit News*
Message: 55069
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Politics
Subject: Hamilton/Tax
Date: 10/31/88 Time: 20:03:27
What is 'magical' about income tax is that it discourages any legal
activity which produces value, it assumes that the fruits of a person's
labor are rightfully the property of the State, and it requires an
enforcement organization which is inconsistent with civil liberties.
See You Later
Dean H.
Message: 55070
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Politics
Subject: Taranto/55063
Date: 10/31/88 Time: 20:05:34
I must confess that I understood your arguements somewhat better before
your latest attempt at reiteration. Did you really mean to say that the
Libertarian Party can not succeed because mainstream Americans have
rejected the Democrats, but not for being 'libertarian'? I suspect that
you meant to say something contrary, but equally cryptic, and got your
latter and former reversed. Your conclusion still rests on the assumption
that American voters are fully aware of the Libertarian message and would
reject it even if it meant becoming a one party system as a result. I
disagree with that assumption.
See You Later
Dean H.
Message: 55071
Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
Category: War!
Subject: Flathead Valley
Date: 10/31/88 Time: 21:16:46
Come on, Apro P. ..... Is that all you could come up with?
Do not insult my Valley like that ..... why we have had some sensational
things happen up there.
Why, I almost got picked up one morning around 3 a.m. while walking
home from my cherry sortin' job. The judge's two boys wrapped their car
around a telephone pole in front of our local mortuary one year.
The First National Bank went up in flames another year, people were running
in the firery inferno and comming out with jewels of all sorts ( and some
paper money). Mount St. Helen blanketed the Valley with volcanic ash one
morning scaring the 'heck' out of the town's folk who did not have radios.
A bear almost ate me once.
I could go on and on ........... There is nothing more exciting than
Flathead Valley -- the home of the Flathead Indians.
Message: 55072
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Tales & Tall Stories
Subject: The Postal Service
Date: 10/31/88 Time: 23:11:26
I saw an envelope today, mailed from Australia, and addressed pretty much as
follows:
Doug
A guest in the country
Perris Valley Skydiving Center
Somewhere about 23 miles east of
Los Angeles, California, USA
The LA line was subsequently scratched out by the PO and "Perris" written
below it. It might have had the proper zip added, too, I didn't get a chance
to memorize it.
Message: 55074
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Politics
Subject: Bush/Dukakis
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 06:17:33
I liked Bloom County in Sunday's Repulsive.
The choice is between a wimp and a shrimp, and whichever one we choose, we
wind up with pie in our face.
Where, oh where, are the REAL leaders?
Message: 55075
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Politics
Subject: Cliff, Cliff, Cliff!
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 06:26:04
My good friend, when are you going to open your eyes to at least the facts
that are laid out so plainly before you?
George Bush has been in a key position in the Federal government for a
number of years. It must be accepted that he is not totally ignorant of
what's been happening. Add to that the fact that he no doubt has a large
coterie of highly prepared and intelligent advisors, counsellors, writers,
etc.
If, with all that knowledge and capability available and at his fingertips,
he can still say that he positively will not raise taxes, "mistaken" is not
the correct term. I do not say it in hate, nor with malice. I am simply
calling it as I see it. The man is lying to the people in order to gain
votes. It's just that simple. Nothing more. Certainly nothing less.
And nothing that couldn't be expected so close to election.
Message: 55077
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Paul/last
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 08:57:18
You mean you did not see Jason arise from the grave again --- and again
------ and again?? Ha ha. Anyway - I hope you had a fun Halloween - I sure
did - I went trick or treating! I dressed up as a horrible witch(just used
my normal makeup!) None of the neighbors knew me! Came home with about 6
pounds of candy to ruin my teeth with. Also when I gave out candy at the
door - I acturally scared 3 little kiddies! Ah - that made my night! I had
this 'grave yard sounds' tape in the radio and hid it among the plants in
the front courtyard and had it blasting away when they came to the door. I
had so much fun, my husband was envious and vows to dress up next year
himself. See you =+= ANN =+=
Message: 55078
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: Paul
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 10:09:32
If you keep insisting on calling people liers without proof, I will
be forced to remove you to the PHAntom ZONE. You had better read my rules.
People Called Reagan a "Lier" but he did not raise taxes and his
cuts stimulated spending that in the end raised more revenue! Can't you
read? And if by some chance Taxes are raised over his objections, it will
be by your Democratic controlled Congress. When will you recognize that?
Yes, Mondale said taxes would have to go way up.... (you voted for him so
you must remember) and we went though this same argument back then...
this must make you a L---?
One more point here, If the Democratic Congress does raise taxes,
they will raise SPENDING as well... Nothing will get "PAID OFF"....
You my friend, do not even know how government works!
Your Logic used here:
The Post Office cut service to my store mailbox by 30 days. I paid
the landlord for that rent... I was picking it up every day, but yet the
Post Office ASSUMED the box was abandoned and STOPPED my mail. Now you
Paul, in the past said the Post Office gave GOOD service.... you LIED!
I know it was beyond your control, even though I paid for it, but you
blaim the President when things happen beyond his control...
Paul, quit telling me to open my eyes, I take that as an insult!
The majority agrees with me at the polls...you must be MISTAKEN!
Message: 55079
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Politics
Subject: Lippard/U.S. Senate
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 11:34:40
I haven't seen a poll on the U.S. Senate race lately, but I believe
you're right about DeGreen closing the gap. I think I'll wait till the day
before the election to decide which way to go.
Message: 55080
Author: $ Peter Petrisko
Category: My Dinner with...
Subject: ANN
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 11:47:01
How do you feel about pound seizures, and is this something your animal
rights group might be investigating?
It is illegal in a few states, but I don't believe Arizona is one of
them.
Message: 55081
Author: $ Gary Jones
Category: Politics
Subject: CLIFF/VOTE
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 13:08:23
How about a vote choice for people who do not live in the district you are
discussing, or who would chose none of the above?
Message: 55082
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: last... Grrrr
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 13:57:26
No matter how I write a Vote or how someone else writes a Vote...there is
ALWAYS someone who will say it is wrong..or I left out some possable
choices. Do you people complain when you go to the polls?
I really do not enjoy posting [V]ote questions.
*=* SYSOP Cliff *=**=* SYSOP Cliff *=**=* SYSOP Cliff *=**=* SYSOP Cliff *=*
Message: 55083
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: My Dinner with...
Subject: Uncle Bob
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 14:23:45
I am sorry I did not know you had a stroke 2 months ago. I
understand you can't speak to me now... Why did you or someone not tell me?
I know my mom had something to do with this...right? I am even more sorry
that no one told me you went into the hospital yesterday so that I might
have visited you. My brother at least told me that you died this morning.
God Bless you Uncle Bob... I will miss you.
Love Cliff.
Message: 55085
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Politics
Subject: FICA
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 17:16:11
You guys think you have it bad. I'm a sole proprietor and I have to pay
*double* social security! Maybe that's why I'm such a staunch supporter of
capitolism.
Message: 55087
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Huh?
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 17:20:45
I found that interesting too. First the Duke says, "I'm a liberal!" Then
when others call him a liberal, he gets all bent out of shape. Later then,
the Duke says again, "I'm a liberal!" Right! or is it Right?
Message: 55088
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: AIDS
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 17:25:49
Re: "THE POINT I'M TRING TO MAKE HERE IS"
Don't look now but your "cap lock" is on.
When I think of AIDS, I always think of homo's. I'm just a victim of the
media. I'm also in a low to zero *risk group*. I don't mess around. Dance
to the tune, pay the piper!
Message: 55089
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Taxes
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 17:27:26
Re: "I advocate a drastic reduction in spending to accompany reductions in
taxes."
A BIG amen to that!
Message: 55090
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Politics
Subject: Paul
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 17:32:50
Re: "Vote for Bush/Quayle/Snow White/Cinderella and other fairy tales."
Most people realize that one can't spend money he doesn't have. The
government never heard of this for some reason. One of the best things
anyone could do for our government is to mandate a balanced budget. If our
elected representatives would stop spending money on stupid things, taxes
would not have to be raised. An example of "stupid things" is, Dennis D.
wanting to give 7 million dollars to some dancing school in New York where
his son-in-law works. I never will get over that one.
Message: 55091
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Politics
Subject: Senate
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 17:36:33
People often comment of voting for the least of the evils. I don't think
there is one in Arizona's senate race. Actually, I shouldn't have used the
word "evil". Stupid would be a better word. On the other hand, maybe a
better word would be . . . . .
Message: 55092
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Hathaway
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 18:09:47
I am actually making two separate arguments. First, the American people
have not rejected the Democratic Party. It remains the majority party in
terms of voter registration and in both houses of Congress. Democrats hold
majorities in both houses of the legislature in 27 states, compared with
nine for Republicans. The 11 states of the Confederacy, which were
overhelmingly Republican in the last presidential election and are almost
certain to be so again this year, send a total of six Republicans to the
U.S. Senate, and 16 Democrats. Roughly half the states have Democratic
governors.
The Democratic Party is a diverse party, as is obvious from looking at the
two candidates on the national ticket. While it's true that the American
people have rejected the liberal wing of the party -- Dukakis, Mondale,
McGovern -- they have not rejected the moderate-to-conservative wing,
exemplified by people like Lloyd Bentsen, Sam Nunn, Chuck Robb, and so
forth. The national leadership of the Democratic Party has continued to
nominate people like Dukakis and Mondale to run for president, and as long
as it contines to do so, the Democrats will be unable to elect a president.
It's likely that this would eventually help Republicans at lower levels, and
I would not be surprised to see the Democrats become the minority party
within a decade. But there is no reason to suppose that it will cease to be
a major party.
My second argument is that even if we suppose that the Democratic Party
ceases to be a major party, it is highly unlikely that the Libertarian Party
would become a major party. Libertarianism is essentially a subset of
conservatism, and a fatally split Democratic Party will not leave a bunch of
Libertarians running around looking for an alternative to the Republican
Party. It is possible that we would be left with a one-party system (it
wouldn't be the first time), and it is possible that a third party would
arise in the ashes of the Democratic Party -- but it would be a party that
would endorse some hybrid of Democratic principles; my guess: social
conservatism, hawkish foreign policy, and government intervention in the
economy -- virtually the opposite of the Libertarian agenda.
Another strong argument against your hypothesis is that
ideologically-oriented parties have never done particularly well, either
here or in any other democracy. People do not vote on the basis of lofty
abstractions, they vote on the basis of their perception of who is best
equipped to solve their problems. For you to assert that Republican
strength and Democratic weakness are paving the way for a major Libertarian
Party is about as realistic as someone 50 years ago claiming that Democratic
strength and Republican weakness was the precursor to a major socialist
party. The New Deal drew support because people saw it as responding to
their problems, not because people believed in socialism. Similarly, the
Republican Party is becoming popular primarly because its policies work, not
because Americans are ideologically libertarian.
Message: 55094
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Liars
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 18:41:23
Ronald Reagan also promised to balance the budget and get rid of the
deficit.
Message: 55095
Author: Apro Poet
Category: Tales & Tall Stories
Subject: Tru Fax
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 19:34:08
According to the New York *Daily News*, Ariel Dorfman and
Armand Mattelart, two Marxist writers from Chile, claim that
Donald Duck and Scrooge McDuck spread subversive, imperialist
philosophy.
In their book, *How to Read Donald Duck* (International
General, New York, six dollars), they point out that there
are no parents in the world of Donald and Scrooge. "Scrooge
McDuck is Donald's uncle, Grandma Duck is Donald's aunt (but
not Scrooge's wife), and Donald is the uncle of Huey, Dewey,
and Louie." The authors state that "uncle authority is of
purely de facto origin, rather than a natural right. It is
a contractual relationship, masquerading as a natural
relationship, a tyranny which does not even assume the
responsibility of breeding. One cannot rebel against it in
the name of nature; one cannot say to an uncle, 'You are a
bad father.'"
Duckburg, say the authors, instills in Third World readers
the psychology that rebellion is useless. One can only hope
for mercy. "It is only natural that the Duckburg Women's
Clubs are always engaged in good works; the dispossessed
eagerly accept whatever charity can be had for the begging."
The authors also note that a popular Donald and Scrooge
story line has them "in far-off lands - Faroffistan,
Unsteadystan, Inca-Blinca - to swindle the natives."
According to *Newsday*, a Russian film studio's production
of *Bambi* was thrown off schedule because three of four deer
used in the filming ended up on someone's dinner table.
"After the deer vanished from the movie set in the Crimea,
where Felix Salten's children's book is being filmed, a
police investigation revealed they had been stolen by three
'notorious freeloaders' who slaughtered them for a birthday
feast."
In other words, somebody ate Bambi.
A group calling itself the Partiers League for Christmas
Cookie Liberation kidnapped a Ronald McDonald statue from a
Sacramento, California, McDonald's. They sent a ransom note
which read: "Mr. McDonald is safe, unharmed, and, I assure
you, entirely unable to escape." The note demanded that
McDonald's give a free box of cookies to any child under
eight who visited the restaurant on Christmas Eve.
"This is not a hoax," said the note. "If any qualified
child is refused cookies, Ronald dies."
The note came with a photo of a blindfolded Ronald
McDonald, a stick of dynamite hanging from his neck. A note
on the wall behind the statue read: "Do as they say or I'm
McHistory." *Virginia Pilot*
Message: 55097
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: Taxes
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 20:15:13
Bob T, I am in the same boat you are when it comes to FICA.
I also "Advocate a drastic reduction in spending to accomany reductions in
taxes"... But as you see, there are one or two people on this board that
seem to WANT more taxes, and spending. And the rest of us are "Liers" to
hope otherwise. I agree with Bush, to get the economy going strong, do not
raise taxes, instead cut fat out of the government and give away programs.
That Democrat guy wants to add more programs to Government... that is why
he THINKS we need more taxes.
I think the Libertarians even have some better ideas... like dumping
Social Security, and I would go for that even though I have over 30 years
invested. But alas, the Libertarians have some extream ideas that scare me,
so I will stay with Bush till I learn more.
Vote Democratic if you want MORE Government!
Vote Republican if you want LESS Government!
Vote Libertarian if you want NO Government!
P.S. Bob, did you find any "BUGs" in the new Prompt?
*=* SYSOP Cliff *=*
Message: 55098
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: B-Dog
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 20:23:27
Yes, he did say he would do it... But he did not get any support from
Congress when it got down to doing away with costly pet programs. No one
man can do it alone... it will take a united people to accomplish that feat.
He may have FAILED to do it... but I would not call the man a "Lier".
Presidents are just MEN, not Gods!
*=* SYSOP Cliff *=*
Message: 55100
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Graphics
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 20:46:18
Very good graphics Ann! How long did it take you to draw all that?
Message: 55101
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jim L
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 20:48:21
Re: "who thinks that a tax increase will stop deficit spending is believing"
I agree with you 100%!
Message: 55102
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Politics
Subject: Jim L
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 20:49:41
I'm going to vote for DeGreen. I don't think he'll win, for sure, but I
could never vote for someone like DeConcini.
Message: 55103
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Paul S
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 20:56:24
It seems inconsistent to me that you would vote for a man/party that is pro
homo, abortion, ACLU, etc. Did I miss something along the line??
Message: 55104
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Politics
Subject: DeGreen
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 20:58:20
DeGreen should be closing in if money has anything to do with it. The GOP
just gave him some $200,000 to try and catch up with DeConcini. Of course
DeConcini still has several million left to blow.
Message: 55105
Author: $ David Burkhart
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Dean
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 21:53:04
Most polls show that the "Reagan Democrats" vote Republican for President
for foreign policy and moral issues, neither of which the Libertarians are
very strong in.
Message: 55106
Author: $ David Burkhart
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Taxes
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 22:02:44
There's no reason President Bush should have to raise taxes. In fact, the
evidence suggests that would be the worst thing to do. Recently an
economist estimated that the marginal propensity to consume (MPC) of the
federal government is around 2.1. In other words, for every $1 of
additional revenue the government gets, it spends $2. If spending is only
allowed to grow at the rate of inflation, then revenues will catch up
(assuming Bush can continue the Reagan prosperity).
There's no reason Bush should raise taxes, but I'll bet the Democratic
Congress is going to do all they can to force him to, so they can finance
their pork.
Message: 55108
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Politics
Subject: David/Democrats
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 22:37:18
If "Reagan Democrats" really voted Republican for foreign policy and moral
issues that would leave them no reason at all to remain Democrats. They sure
as hell aren't Democrats because they want to pay higher taxes.
See You Later
Dean H.
Message: 55109
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Politics
Subject: Taranto
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 22:39:50
Since we both agree that mismanagement by the Democratic leadership
could (should) result in a decline in that party's support, the question
is what might that mean for the Libertarian Party.
It is true that the Democratic party is more responsive to its members'
wishes at the state and local levels and its strength at those levels will
not disappear anytime soon. For the Libertarian Party to become a major
party it will have to build strength at the lower levels also. This will
become easier once more people find out that they can put a Libertarian
into local office and fight waste and abuse by government close to home.
Currently there are nearly 100 Libertarians holding public office in 30
states and the District of Columbia.
Libertarianism is not a subset of conservatism. If it were only that
then your comparison to a socialist party's fortunes during a rising
Democratic tide would have been valid. As I have said before, the
Democrats who are not following the party's lead and voting for their
national ticket are also not switching to the Republican party in major
numbers. I say it is because they disagree with its conservative social
agenda. They would have no such disagreement with a Libertarian ticket,
which also offers them a much better version of the economic prosperity
they have been voting Republican for.
Message: 55111
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: Last/Dean
Date: 11/02/88 Time: 00:24:00
Remember, lower end Democrats think "Economic Prosperity" is a
Governmental handout... The Libertarians do not believe in all these Social
programs, so there would be no handouts. Now why would Democrats flock to
the Libertarian party, when in fact they fear it?
I don't believe in these Social programs either.... I am Pro Worker
and for the American dream of wealth where everyone can make it if they try.
And if you should make it, I do not think you should be taxed to death to
pay for the lazy.
*=* SYSOP Cliff *=*
Message: 55112
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Politics
Subject: Bob
Date: 11/02/88 Time: 05:19:52
As you said, you can't keep spending money you don't have, unless you raise
the income. I still think there's something wrong when the man seeking the
highest office in the land can't assimilate that simple fact and apply it to
government.
If our elected officials refuse to respond to the public need or the public
demand, they can always be, and should be, replaced.
Now, since I have been threatened with the phantom zone for disagreeing with
the almighty Sysop, I better talk about roses and elephants and other things
before I find myself talking to myself.
Anybody seen a good flea circus lately? NO!I don't mean the political ads!
Message: 55113
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Answer!
Subject: B. Dog
Date: 11/02/88 Time: 05:24:47
I guess he was just mistaken. Maybe poorly advised.
Just because he hasn't kept his campaign promises doesn't make him a bad
man. After all, it wasn't his fault! It was all those free spending,
swinging liberal, homo Democrats that held him up!
Choke,,gag.....that's about all the sarcasm I can stand for one day...
Message: 55114
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bob T.
Date: 11/02/88 Time: 05:37:02
Actually Bob, my positions on just about anything political have been
greatly exagerrated by Cliff, but I have seen the apparent inconsistency in
what you see as my position, and it certainly deserves a reply.
As you would expect, I find myself in disagreement with all of the Dukakis
positions you mentioned, and am very disappointed in the Democratic platform
as it pertains to those things.
Sadly enough, I am also very disillusioned with the performance of the
Republican president of the past 8 years, and feel that his administration
has done more damage to middle class America than has been done in many
years before he came to office.
The balance, and it is admittedly a delicate one, is between four or
possible eight more years of what we have had, or the chance that some of
the more liberal (and morally wrong) planks of the Democratic platform
become the law of the land.
My vote, therefore, is not so much a vote for Dukakis as it is a vote
against Bush. Personally, I don't think either of them are capable, or up to
the job, but what are we to do when the best either party can give us is
third rate?
Too bad there is not a place on the ballot for "none of the above", for that
is where my vote would go this time around.
Message: 55116
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bob/my drawing
Date: 11/02/88 Time: 06:16:25
It took about 15 minutes to draw on my word processor - then I uploaded it
to Apollo. Do you belong to the Art sig? Do you draw? =+= ANN =+=
Message: 55117
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Answer!
Subject: PeterP./siezures
Date: 11/02/88 Time: 06:27:28
I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'Pound siezures'? Do you mean picking
stray dogs off the streets - or coming to your home and taking your dog for
some reason? The pound/Humane Society has a lot of good about it - but it
also has more bad. I know one thing - it has found ways to up their revenues
that have nothing to do with being humane or caring what the owners feel! If
they can find a reason - any reason, they WILL take your dog and quarenteen
him for the 7 days or longer - basically to collect a fee! A pet, in my
opinion is private property, but they do not treat it as such.
I will redily admit that this is a subject that I wouldn't hesitate to brake
the law over!
Anyway - please explain 'Pound Siezures'. See you =+= ANN =+=
Message: 55118
Author: $ Alan Hamilton
Category: Politics
Subject: Taxes
Date: 11/02/88 Time: 09:07:28
Okay, I'll accept that. Filling out the forms come April 15th is a real
pain even for me, and I have a relatively simple financial profile. Not to
mention the guilty until proven innocent attitude of the IRS.
I still think that abolishing the IRS won't in of itself create lower
taxation, though. The immediate reaction would be a raising of other
revenue sources.
/
/ * / Alan
* *
Message: 55119
Author: $ Alan Hamilton
Category: Politics
Subject: Official English
Date: 11/02/88 Time: 09:28:34
Yes, yet another thread on the election. Prop. 106 will, with a few
exceptions, only allow the state government to work in English. Athough I
agree with the philosophy behind it -- that non-English speakers should be
encouraged to learn English -- the proposition itself is worded in such a
way that it is dangerously vauge. For example, state officials could be
prevented from using American Sign Language to communicate with deaf people.
At the annual Border Governers Conference between American and Mexican
border states, Arizona officials could be prevented from speaking Spanish to
the Mexican officials.
The proponents of 106 say that these problems won't come up if the
proposition is "properly" interperted, but I would rather the proposition be
more explicit, and not leave so much leeway.
/
/ * / Alan
* *
Message: 55120
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: Paul/Non of the.....
Date: 11/02/88 Time: 09:53:13
Paul, why don't you Vote Libertarian then... Part of their plank is
to get "Non of The Above" put on ballots. I think that is a great Idea!
Phantom Zone is only for NAME calling...not political ideals Paul. Now who
is EXAGGERATING?
You see Paul, you do not understan Republicans or you would
understand the platform of cutting Government and FAT, and that can also
mean No added taxes or LESS taxes. It is not a lie on Bush's part, but a
political ideology. How can you call someones belief a LIE? Things don't
always work out since politics is a compromise of many ideals. I wish
you would understand this and mello out. Paul, it is obvious that you
believe in governmental interference in social lives of people, where as I
do not!
*=* SYSOP Cliff *=*
Message: 55122
Author: $ Todd Reese
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: last
Date: 11/02/88 Time: 11:47:16
He just wants to get a hold of some extra money so that he can pay the
massive tax hike that President Bush will create.
Message: 55125
Author: $ Jim Lippard
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: 55081/Jones
Date: 11/02/88 Time: 15:31:05
There are no districts for U.S. Senate. If you are registered to vote in
Arizona, you get to vote for one of the four candidates listed.
Message: 55129
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Hathaway
Date: 11/02/88 Time: 17:56:40
First of all, libertarianism most certainly is a subset of conservatism.
Mainstream libertarian organizations like the Reason Foundation and the Cato
Institute work closely with mainstream conservative organizations like the
Heritage Foundation. It's true that libertarians tend to insist that they
have somehow transcended conventional political distinctions and are neither
liberal nor consevative, but this bit of self-deception is just part of the
eccentricity that I call "libertarian conceit."
Your contention that Reagan Democrats remain Democrats because they identify
with the permissive position on moral issues of the national Democratic
Party is patently ridiculous. Look at the kind of Democrats that get
elected at the state level: Fritz Hollings, Howell Heflin, Lloyd Bentsen,
even Dennis DeConcini. These are not people who want legalized drugs,
free distribution of pornography, glorification of homosexuality, and the
other items on the Libertarian social agenda. (They are certainly not
foreign-policy isolationists, another Libertarian Party position that you
are conveniently ignoring in this discussion.)
Do you suppose the 116 Democrats in the Mississippi House of Representatives
(out of 122 members) are libertarian on social issues? I think not! The
reasons Reagan Democrats remain Democrats are (1) because they have been
Democrats for a very long time and are reluctant to change, (2) because
Democrats who run for state and local office are more in tune with their
values than the leftists who run the Democratic Party, and (3) because
as much as they like Republican prosperity, Democratic economic populism has
its appeal, and Republicans are still mistaken as the party of the rich.
Nowhere is there any indication of an opening for the Libertarian Party.
Message: 55131
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Tales & Tall Stories
Subject: Tru Fax
Date: 11/02/88 Time: 20:09:28
Bomb squad blows box of strawberries into jam
A bomb squad blew up a suspicious parcel at Los Angeles
International Airport yesterday, ... *Los Angeles Herald
Examiner*
A standoff between police and an armed man in a motel in
Ruston, Louisiana, ended when the man was ostensibly married
to one of the two female hostages he had taken. A wedding
was the man's sole demand, and police arranged for a mock
ceremony to end the eight-hour siege. *(New Orleans) Times-
Picayune*
The false teeth of a woman residing in Broken Bow,
Oklahoma, prevented a bullet from entering her brain, thus
saving her life. According to the sheriff's report, the
woman threatened to kill herself during an argument with her
husband; the incident occurred after the man handed her a
.22-caliber rifle. *Minneapolis Star and Tribune*
Norman Toevs, a sixty-one-year-old Calgary, Alberta,
resident, beat his wife with a VCR and terrorized her with a
fireplace poker for seven hours in a rage over her obsession
with bridge. Toevs, who described himself as a "marshmallow"
all his life, said his anger erupted after his wife banged
his head with a can of chili. She was preparing to entertain
members of her bridge club, but would not feed him.
*Victoria Times Colonist*
Joe Francis Woodson, a resident of El Monte, California,
was convicted of assault with a deadly weapon and one count of
battery for attacking his wife with a chocolate Easter bunny.
The victim said she was knocked out by the force of the blow
and that the six-ounce candy rabbit was frozen and still in
the box when Woodson threw it at her. Woodson unsuccessfully
maintained that he was recovering from eye surgery at the
time, his wife threw the rabbit at him first, and the blow
knocked his glasses off. *El Monte Herald and Press*
Message: 55133
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Politics
Subject: Taranto
Date: 11/02/88 Time: 21:29:40
Anyone who reads the Libertarian platform can see instantly that
libertarianism is not a subset of conservatism. The existance
of links between libertarian and conservative organizations to further
causes upon which they agree is hardly a determining factor in libertarian
policies. One could as accurately say that conservatism is a subset of
totalitarianism and cite the mutual interests of Republican administrations
with right-wing dictatorships as 'proof'.
Why the reluctance to admit that a movement exists which is neither
liberal nor conservative, but shares some positions with each and has
others shared by neither? It is interesting that you must go so far out
of your way to deny the obvious, while at the same time characterizing
libertarians' sense of identity and hope for the eventual acceptance
of their ideas as 'conceit'. Was Goldwater's 1964 campaign against the
prevailing ideology of the time simply a matter of 'conceit'? It is not
conceit to work toward a difficult goal that may prove to be unobtainable.
To deny that an opposing viewpoint can exist IS conceit.
Your contention that Reagan Democrats remain Democrats but identify with
the restrictive position on moral issues of the Republican Party is
patently ridiculous. Look at the kind of Democrats that get elected at the
state level: Cranston, Biden, Inouye, Kennedy, Metzenbaum, etc. These are
not people who want school prayer, censorship, drug testing, and the other
items on the Republican social agenda. (They are certainly not foreign-
policy interventionists, another Republican Party position that you are
conveniently ignoring in this discussion.)
The Democrats who sent these Senators to Washington ALSO sent their
states' electoral votes to Reagan, whether they are regularly identified
as 'Reagan Democrats' or not. If the Democratic Party will not meet
their desires for a national ticket that promises economic sanity and
personal freedom they could eventually be drawn toward a Libertarian
ticket. One indication that they are not overly attached to the party
leadership's vision of paternalistic government is the fact that they have
rejected every attempt to vote in gun control by at least a two to one
margin (even in Massachusetts). Given the chance to vote directly on the
welfare state and other costly liberal programs they might well do the
same thing.
See You Later
Dean H.
Message: 55135
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Taranto/parallels
Date: 11/02/88 Time: 22:40:03
So, the Moonies are really a subset of the conservatives. After all, the
Heritage Foundation and other ultra-right-wing organizations have really
snuggled up to Moon, his church, and his newspaper.
Message: 55136
Author: $ Chris Neal
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Politics
Date: 11/02/88 Time: 23:44:40
I think I have heard enough about politics! (HEHE)
EVERYONE KNOWS THAT BUSH WILL BE THE NEXT PRESIDENT!
So why persist in argueing(sp) over it?
----------=============*******>CHRIS<*******=============------114/18.8
Message: 55137
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Paul S
Date: 11/02/88 Time: 23:56:17
Would it be odd for me to consider myself "middle class". I think I fit in
about there. I think the past 8 years have been very good to me financially
and economically. The 4 years before that were very bad. So from my point
of view, the Republicans are doing a much better job in the money area then
the Democrats did. And on top of it all, the Republicans are morally a lot
closer to a Christian perspective then the Democrats are. I plan on voting
for Bush. I hope he can follow Reagan's footsteps.
Message: 55139
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: War!
Subject: Cliff/name calling
Date: 11/03/88 Time: 05:53:02
You criticize me for calling Bush as I perceive him to be, and yet you get
on here and call me ignorant, among other things. Now who is indulging in
name calling Cliff?
Don't tell me I don't understand the Republican philosophy! I was born into
the Republican philosophy! I was raised with the Republican philosophy! I
come from a family who would have voted for the elephant if it was the
candidate! My God, they even voted fpr Wendell Wilkie!
I understand the Republican philosophy very well. I also think it stinks,
since it is the philosophy of tricky Dick Nixon, (a PROVEN liar by the
way!), as well as Ronald Wilson Reagan, the president who begged for labor's
support in his first campaign by mouthing off as to what a great union man
he was, etc. and then turned his colors and started on the path of union
busting and destruction of the working man's standard of living that
organized labor worked so hard for years to achieve.
No Cliff, I'm afraid that I understand the Republican philosophy all too
well, and have seen the fruits of that philosophy over the pase 8 years. I
just don't think we need 4 more of the same, in spite of the problems with
the Dukakis forces. I won't vote Livertarian for the simple and obvious
reason that they are even more fanatically right winged than the
Republicans, and so are not a viable alternative. That leaves me with an
admittedly poor choice, but one I am forced to make, since I do believe that
voting is a responsibility we cannot afford to ignore.
Message: 55141
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Question?
Subject: Cliff
Date: 11/03/88 Time: 08:55:08
If you do not believe in government interference as you stated in a post to
Paul - why don't you vote Libertarian then? =+= ANN =+=
Message: 55142
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: JT/Lib.
Date: 11/03/88 Time: 08:59:16
The Libertarian party is absolutely nothing like the Republican party. Dean
is right.
Re: conceit - the other two parties are certainly not lacking in that field!
Message: 55144
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: Paul
Date: 11/03/88 Time: 10:15:50
Paul, here you go again STARTING a fight with lies... I did not use
the word "Ignorant"... Show me the post Paul or apollo-gize!
Rod claims he was a Christian once, and I believe that about as much
as you saying you were raised as a Republican and understood the philosophy.
Your posts on here have proven your lack of knowledge of politics.
You may think what you know stinks... but if so...WHY Paul are they beating
the Democrats so badly? Answer that Paul.... Why will most of the country
Vote for the Republican?
I have run a business for many years Paul. I know what goes on and
how well I am doing or not doing. How can you tell me that you know more
about my business? Who gave you permission to speak for me? You are a
VERY self righteous person, and if this country was run by you I would leave
it!
If you can't post a political message with out HATE and lies Paul,
you had better talk about other things. We have less than a week to go and
all this Bull should be over... Calm DOWN!
Now go find that post where I used the word "IGNORANT".
God Help you...you need it!
*=* SYSOP Cliff *=*
Message: 55146
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: Ann
Date: 11/03/88 Time: 10:46:14
Why don't I vote Libertarian... Well, I do not like their full
platform. I do not like the idea of opening our borders to anyone who
wishes to enter... it will bring in to much low life. If things turn good
here...all the crooks will move in. I do not like their stand on drugs.
They have not explained to my satisfaction where money would come from if
the income tax was axed. I do not like their stand on the military
readiness of our forces. And there is more.... The party has got a future
I believe, but it is not ready yet. (for me anyways)
Below the President level of government, there is one Libertarian I
am going to Vote for next week however.....
*=* SYSOP Cliff *=*
Message: 55147
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Politics
Subject: Last
Date: 11/03/88 Time: 11:10:12
A can a week, thats all we ask.
See You Later,
Dean H.
Message: 55148
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Bulletins
Subject: My Uncle
Date: 11/03/88 Time: 13:50:23
My favorite Uncle Bob will be buried Friday at Arizona's Veteran
Cemetery. Gemini Computer and Machine will be closed.... Please do not call
me; and for a day or two, leave me out of your arguments and debates on this
board. I will not be on here Friday at all in remembrance of my Uncle Bob.
For you smokers.... He died because his lungs could not handle it.
And, it was directly the results of his heavy smoking. At the end, he
realized his mistake and quit, but it was too late. He believed with todays
knowledge, only a fool or a weak person will continue to smoke. It's
deadly!
I love you Uncle Bob.... God be with you.
Cliff Winters
Message: 55149
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Hathaway
Date: 11/03/88 Time: 17:15:17
The Libertarian platform is simply a radical agenda for one element of
conservatism in America. You can deny this until you are blue in the face
-- and ideologues always insist that they are somehow above conventional
distinctions -- but that does not change the fact. At any rate, I whink I
am better qualified to evaluate the relationship between consevatism and
libertarianism as political movements, since I am a professional
conservative. After all, I don't lecture you about truck driving, or
whatever it is that you do for a living.
Your practice of plagiarizing my messages and plugging in words so that you
are saying the opposite of what I said is neither clever nor instructive.
I advise you to address my points directly, rather than drawing inane
parallels.
Your attempt to justify your claim that Reagan Democrats are really
Libertarians by citing liberal Democratic senators from California,
Delaware, Ohio, Hawaii, and Massachusetts [!]. Surely you realize that
these are all fairly liberal states. More importnatly, none of the senators
you mentioned could likely be elected president, while most of the ones I
mentioned likely could if they were nominated by their party. ?The reason
for this is that your senators are soft on social issues such as crime and
drugs, on which Americans are basically united, and that they are nuts when
it comes to foreign policy. People in Massachusetts may be willing to elect
a leftist to the Senate, but even they would be reluctant to send one to
the White House -- and not mainly becaue of his economic views.
I don't know what point you are trying to make with regard to gun control.
Opposition to gun control is a classic social consevative position; the fact
that it meets the Libertarian Party's test also has little to do with the
opposition of the majority of Americans. (It will also be interesting to
see how the gun-control measure fares on the Maryland ballot next week;
polls have generally been showing pro-control sentiment, although it's been
closing in recent week.)
Message: 55151
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ron Harvey
Date: 11/03/88 Time: 17:19:07
Your message about the Moonies makes no sense whatsoever. Consevatism is
not a particular organization or a narrow ideology; it is a range of
political views.
Message: 55152
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Tales & Tall Stories
Subject: Tru Fax
Date: 11/03/88 Time: 17:38:52
A Tacoma, Washington, man spent Thanksgiving in jail after
assaulting his girlfriend with a twenty-one pound turkey.
The woman told police she and her boyfriend were arguing when
he used the turkey to shove her back into the house. The
weapon was not placed in evidence "because it was roasting in
the oven," according to the arresting officer's report.
*(Bergen County, New Jersey) Record*
A man in Wichita, Kansas, was charged with a misdemeanor
when he began slapping his girlfriend because she was unable
to buy a winning lottery ticket. According to Officer Jim
Whittredge, "Every time she scratched a losing ticket, the
guy smacked her, and she lost five times." Police reported
that this was the first incidence of violence involving the
Kansas lottery. *Wichita Eagle*
From an unattributed newspaper clipping:
"Wednesday, January 5, 2 A.M. Employees of Lucky's
supermarket reported a man who had been sitting in the cereal
aisle since 8:30 P.M. and acting strangely. Police
questioned the Kentfield man, who said he was almost done
with his shopping, that it just takes longer when you don't
have a list."
According to the *Dallas Morning News*, Southwest Texas
State University student Joseph D. Christian II was arrested
on a charge of engaging in hazing. Police said Christian, a
Kappa Sigma fraternity pledge, "refused to explain why he was
in a field at 3 A.M., wet and shirtless in forty-two-degree
weather, wearing burlap underwear and covered with motor
oil." Hazing incidents must be reported under Texas law.
"Chapter vice president John Coyle said all twenty-five
Kappa Sigma pledges volunteered to wear burlap underwear with
eggs inside because it was a fraternity tradition."
According to witnesses in St. Albans, West Virginia, George
Shamblin chased his wife, Reba, between two motels to the
banks of the Kanawha River. She then jumped in the water and
"Shamblin hurled large stones at her as she attempted to swim
away."
After his arrest, however, Shamblin told police he threw
the rocks in an attempt to "drive her back to shore."
*Altoona (Pennsylvania) Mirror*
Message: 55154
Author: Michelle Reynolds
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Hi.
Date: 11/03/88 Time: 20:13:37
Just droppin a Hi.
Message: 55155
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Politics
Subject: Taranto
Date: 11/03/88 Time: 22:21:29
I suggest that you get a better handle on your present occupation before
presuming to lecture any truck drivers. I am certain that we could show
the Libertarian and Republican platforms to any truck driver in America
and they would see that there is a difference in underlying principles and
neither is a subset of the other. Incidentally, how is it that you are
'better qualified to evaluate' than I? Evaluate for whom? I was a
conservative back when you were still a leftist, remember?
You being a professional might explain some things at that. If I were
doing political writing for a living, I might go with the larger market
myself. Seriously, a free market advocate like myself would be the last to
fault you for maximizing your income potential. Go for it!
I turned part of your last message around for two reasons:
1: You had somehow gotten the notion that bible-belt Democrats, who would
be right at home in the Republican Party, were the only ones who have
rejected their party's liberal national ticket and voted for Reagan.
Democrats everywhere voted for Reagan or he couldn't have won two electoral
landslides. The Democrats who elected the Senators I named are not voting
for Republican presidents in hopes of getting legislated morality or U.S.
military intervention around the globe.
2: I wanted to parry that 'patently ridiculous' remark without precipitating
a war of insults, so I responded in your own form to let it be obvious that
it was your same barb being thrown back, with no more force, and no
reason for further escalation in that arena. Maybe it was too subtle, did
anyone else get it?
See You Later,
Dean H.
Message: 55157
Author: $ Jim Lippard
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Taranto
Date: 11/04/88 Time: 00:26:28
Political distinctions change over time. Today's conservatives were
yesterday's liberals. Attempts to fuse conservatism and libertarianism have
met with failure (see, for instance, the essays in George W. Carey's
_Freedom and Virtue: The Conservative/Libertarian Debate_). I don't see
anything to be gained by claiming that libertarianism, which contains many
elements diametrically opposed to stereotypical conservatism, is not a term
which applies to a philosophy distinct from both liberalism (in the modern
sense) and conservatism.
Message: 55158
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff/ignorance
Date: 11/04/88 Time: 07:38:35
You don't have to use the WORD "ignorant" when the implication is so clear
in your post of yesterday (I think) that accused me of knowing nothing about
the Republican party.
As I said, whether you choose to believe it or not, I was raised in a
Republican family, and was well indoctrinated into conservative Republican
philosophy. My family would have voted for the elephant if that is what the
Repubican candidate turned out to be.
Matter of FACT, Cliff, before Reagan's second term, my voting record leaned
heavily in favor of Republicans. I actually voted for him on his first run
for the job, when he told so many lies about being pro-working man and
pro-union, lies that didn't take very long after his inaugeration to show up
for what they were. It wasn't until more than halfway through his first term
that I changed my lifelong affiliation to the Democratic party.
Now get off my back!
Message: 55159
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff
Date: 11/04/88 Time: 07:43:28
Out of respect for your loss and your mourning, please accept my apology for
anything in my last post to which you may have taken personal offense.
You have my deepest sympathy.
Paul
Message: 55160
Author: $ Alan Hamilton
Category: Politics
Subject: Dem/Rep/Lib parties
Date: 11/04/88 Time: 09:16:06
One difference amongst the parties are the aspects that the extreme
fringes of the parties take. Far right Republicans lean towards fascism;
far left Democrats lean towards socialism or communism; extreme Libertarians
lean towards anarchism. (We're going to have to come up with a direction
for the libertarians -- far "up", maybe.)
Both the far left and far right believe in very strong government,
but in different areas. The far left believes in tight control of the
economy, and the far right believes in tight control of social issues
(morals, etc.).
The "less government" claim by the far right only applies to the
economy; they believe in strong government control of moral issues and in a
strong military.
Considering all this, I don't think that you can say that the
Libertarian party is made up of only disaffected Republicans or only
disaffected Democrats. Someone that believes in less government control of
social issues (from the far left) fits in, as does someone that believes in
less government control of the economy (from the far right). The
Libertarian party is the only true "less government" party. In its extreme
form, it manifests itself as *no* government.
So, I think this whole argument is pointless -- you're both right,
and you're both wrong. I do see the Libertarians gaining power; how much
they'll get, I don't know. I don't see the demise of the elephants or the
donkeys yet. Anyway, the Libertarians will never become a major power until
they identify themselves with an animal. They are also going to have to
select a color for the graphics on the evening news. The Republicans have
taken blue, and the Democrats have taken red. White would seem the logical
choice, but it wouldn't really show up well in the fancy election return
displays.
/
/ * / Alan
* *
Message: 55162
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Answer!
Subject: last
Date: 11/04/88 Time: 12:11:35
How about purple? Red and blue combined.
See You Later
Dean H.
Message: 55163
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Politics
Subject: Animal
Date: 11/04/88 Time: 12:22:36
Maybe the Libertarian symbol should be the snake from the old 'Don't tread
on me' flag.
See You Later
Dean H.
Message: 55164
Author: $ Peter Petrisko
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: ANN/POUND SEIZURES
Date: 11/04/88 Time: 13:32:11
In many cases, laboratories which use animals in experiments get these
subjects from the local pound.
In effect, this means if your pooch runs away and ends up at the local
humane society lock-up, you had better claim him quick. If you don't, Spot
could very well be sporting the latest Revlon product in his eyes a short
time later. (And I always thought they put the unclaimed & unwanted
animals to sleep, the humane thing to do under the circumstances. Hence the
Society's name.)
Message: 55165
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Peter/last
Date: 11/04/88 Time: 16:02:00
You are confusing the Humane Society with the dog pound.
The former does not offer animals to laboratories, to the best of my
knowledge. The pound, on the other hand, does so with alarming regularity,
and always has.
You chose Answer!
Subject:Bob
Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
1: By the time Christian was two, I was an agnostic. Ya can't train a
2:baby on matters of religion at that period in their development. My wife is
3:and always was a atheist (she comes from a family where the father is a
4:scientist). Christian is not a Christian.
5:
6: Hope this answers your question,
7: Rod
8:
9:P.S. Bumper sticker observed today, "I love my country, it is the
10:government I fear."
11:end
Edit command:S
Saving message...
The message is 55167
WAY Below Normal Bulletin Board command:$C
Message: 443
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Annie the ASSp
Subject: Roddy
Date: 10/30/88 Time: 08:49:52
Yes - we have plenty of room because hubby built a bird room just off of our
family room. The Cockatoo is loose all the time - the Cockatiels have flight
time each day. The dogs are little and take up no space except on the bed!
Ha. Come visit sometimes - to our little zoo! =+= Annie the AssP =+=
Message: 444
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Annie the ASSp
Subject: Sandy the sysopus
Date: 10/30/88 Time: 08:56:43
But you see - my computer posed a challenge to Cliffy because it is so
awesome and he came through and improved it - something Tandy Corp. could
not/would not do. It had the potential! Just wait until he sees my printer!
He will litterly 'swoon' with joy at such a machine.
All kidding aside - I hope someday Cliff will don a mask to keep out the
animal particles and venture to my house and look over this printer and
tell me it's portential and I know it has much! Even though it isn't IBM
compatible - he could make it hum with my computer I'll bet! See you
See you =+= ANN =+=
Message: 445
Author: $ Ralph Blehm
Category: Annie the ASSp
Subject: Tandy
Date: 10/30/88 Time: 11:52:39
Annie when are you going to get a computer and printer?
=)) OLD FART RALPH ((=
Message: 446
Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
Category: Mighty SYSOPs
Subject: Last
Date: 10/30/88 Time: 20:25:13
As soon as someone pulls off those Rose Colored Glassed that
Radio Shack nailed to her head ..........
Message: 447
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Annie the ASSp
Subject: All of youse are ..
Date: 10/31/88 Time: 11:29:52
... jealous! You've already wasted your money on other less than good
computers - so you are taking it out on me. My printer is perfect!
* Get a real computer - get a Tandy! *
* Vote Libertarian *
* ANN *
Message: 448
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Annie the ASSp
Subject: Sandeeeee!
Date: 10/31/88 Time: 11:42:27
I am voicing a loud protest over those posts you put in when I was gone for
the day on Apollo! I cry 'Unfair' because if I was to retaliate with like
posts - your darling Cliffy would put me in the ZONE forever! Case in point:
not too long ago I drew a cute 'real life' picture of you that everybody
knew was close to the truth - yet I almost got thrown into the Zone, plus,
horrible pictures of me were spread over every sig. much to my humiliation!
I will never live that down and it was an affront to my sensitive nature
being so pure and sinless that I am!
From now on I am going to refer to you as 'Grand Canyon'! Now that isn't bad
really - it's a beautiful place with lots of lovely colored rocks and
crevices - it also has a big gigantic hole! In fact I think it is the
world's biggest one!
No Cliff! NOOOOOOOOOOO
Agggggggggggggggggggggg
* ZAP! *
Message: 449
Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
Category: Mighty SYSOPs
Subject: Last
Date: 10/31/88 Time: 21:34:17
Ever heard of the -- Black Hole? --
If not ask Whitey, he is quite familiar with it.
In fact I just bet that the times I visited you and Whitey was not around,
I can just guess where he was ....... trying to find his way out!
Message: 450
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Annie the ASSp
Subject: Ms. Grand Canyon
Date: 11/01/88 Time: 09:24:08
You have the facts wrong - I have no 'Black Hole'! Just because I quit
bleaching my hair blond doesn't mean .............!
Fact #2 - Whitey does not want to find his way out! But people get lost in
the Grand Canyon every day! When we went to Canyon Lake week end before
last, I thought of you immediately!
Fact #3 When Cliff goes into the Canyon after dark, he takes a Coleman
lantern with him, not to mention his bedroll and ice chest. Plus, he wears
ear plugs because the echo in there would drive him crazy! Ta Ta
=+= Annie the AssP =+=
Message: 451
Author: $ James Hawley
Category: Annie the ASSp
Subject: ANN'S Computer
Date: 11/02/88 Time: 06:58:22
Buy a real computer.
Message: 452
Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
Category: Christian Rod!
Subject: Last
Date: 11/02/88 Time: 21:57:19
Ann can not handle the real thing .........
Message: 453
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Annie the ASSp
Subject: All about Sandy
Date: 11/03/88 Time: 09:15:55
Sandy's Grand Canyon is soooooo big, she keeps falling in! Hahahahahahaha.
Just listen to dem echos! Hello! Hellllo! Hellooooooooo! One time she even
came across a bighorn sheep climbing the walls! Baa! Baaaa! Baaaaaaa! And
his family! =+= Annie the AssP =+=
Message: 454
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Annie the ASSp
Subject: JAMES!
Date: 11/03/88 Time: 09:17:47
Your not gonna start with the 'buy a real computer' stuff again are you Mr.
Digger Sculker? =+= Annie the AssP =+=
Message: 455
Author: $ Ralph Blehm
Category: Annie the ASSp
Subject: Computer
Date: 11/04/88 Time: 05:48:33
It would help, also a printer.
=)) OLD FART RALPH ((=
You chose Politics
Subject:VOTE
Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
1:
2: * * * * VOTE LIBERTARIAN * * * *
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