Apollo BBS Archive - November 1988

Apollo BBS Archive - November 27, 1988


Main Menu command:V

Should Apollo's log in welcome include the wording "In God We Trust"?

[A] I Think that is a GREAT idea! (YES)
[B] I don't care one way or the other. (A MAYBE)
[C] I do not like the idea at all! (NO)

Deutch: "In Gott Wir Vertrauen"  an Apollo?
[A] Ich denke das ist eine gross idee! (Ya)
[B] Ich habe keine idee. (Vielleicht)
[C] Ich gliech die Idee nicht. (Nein)

Poll results to date:
[A] 11   [B] 8    [C] 11

Mail from Dean Hathaway
Date: 11/27/88  Time: 13:34:31

[A]bort, [N]ew only, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read

  I think it is worth noting that JT only said 'Haw haw' to your post
instead of trying to refute it. You did good.
   See You Later
      Dean H.
[A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
 1:        Thank you.  By the way, Hawley would never welch on a bet.  He is 
 2:playing mind games with you and Cliff in order to get some fun for his 
 3:money.  He will pay you, I guarantee it.
 4:        Do you think JT is just playing Devil's advocate with us?  Your 
 5:posts, as always are excellent.  The only place I have to go with my posts 
 6:are UP.
 7:                                Take care,
 8:                                Rod

$tatus Club Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 4805
Author: $ Gary Jones
Category: Fire'arms
Subject: Cliff/last
Date: 11/27/88  Time: 09:46:50

Remember:

     This is my rifle,
     and this is is my gun.
     This one's for fighting,
     and this one's for fun!

?????

                                                   ****  Gary   ****

Creative Corner Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 1953
Author: $ Gary Jones
Category: Question?
Subject: Firearms
Date: 11/27/88  Time: 09:49:29

Rod, don't you think fast shooting and fast reloading can be an art?

                                                   ****  Gary   ****

Message: 1954
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Answer!
Subject: Gary/fast
Date: 11/27/88  Time: 18:16:02

        Yes.
I like the idea of an automatic with clips.  Carry two or three pre-loaded
clips and when one becomes empty, just shove another in.  I have never had
an automatic that jambed on me although I don't take them apart and mess
with them either.
        In the mid-sixties, I owned an Italian 6.5 rifle, the same type that
was used by Oswald in Dallas.  It was like firing a blunder buss when using
the military loads.  I don't see how Oswald could have fired that fast and
that accurate with his.  It had one hell of a kick and made a gigantic loud
report.
                                Rod

Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 55738
Author: $ Alan Hamilton
Category: Religion
Subject: Choices
Date: 11/27/88  Time: 06:00:48

        From what you are saying Cliff, it sounds like you would favor
abolishing freedom of religion, as long as your own beliefs became the
official state religion.  In fact, I think that would be a good [V]ote:
 
Would you favor ammending the Constitution to allow the government to
establish and control the free exercise of religion, if your own religion
was the one that would be established?
[A] Yes
[B] No
 
     /
 /  *  /  Alan
*     *

Message: 55739
Author: $ Alan Hamilton
Category: Religion
Subject: JT
Date: 11/27/88  Time: 06:11:10

    My main objection to "In God We Trust" on the currency is that it's
inaccurate -- I don't trust in God, and a lot of other people don't, either.
"Some of Us Trust in God" would be better.  Or even "Most of Us Trust in
God."
 
     /
 /  *  /  Alan
*     *

Message: 55740
Author: $ Alan Hamilton
Category: Religion
Subject: JT
Date: 11/27/88  Time: 06:15:41

   I agree that forbiding the government from make laws regarding the free
exercise of religion was not originaly intended to cover things like
atheism.  The intent was more towards allowing you to attend any good
Protestant church that you wanted to.  The founding fathers also intended
for slavery to be legal, and they also intended to keep women out of
political office, or even permit them to vote.  These are a few reasons why
I don't like the "original intent" method of interperting the Constitution.
 
     /
 /  *  /  Alan
*     *

Message: 55741
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rod the thinker
Date: 11/27/88  Time: 10:08:14

Haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw
haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw HAW haw haw haw haw haw
haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw haw!

Message: 55742
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Hamilton
Date: 11/27/88  Time: 10:27:43

No, the purpose of the religion clauses in the First Amendment was not
"towards allowing you to attend any good Protestant church that you wanted
to."  I suggest you study a little history before you sit in judgment of the
Founding Fathers of this nation.  The purpose of the religion clauses was to
unite a diverse group of states of different religions.  (Not all of which,
I might add, were Protestent:  Maryland was settled by Catholics.)  Now,
many things have changed since 1791:  The Constitution has been amended to
bar states from violating the rights of their citizens, and the religion
clauses of the First Amendment have been incorporated into the 14th
Amendment.  This is entirely appropriate, particularly given that the
populations of most individual states are as religiously diverse as the
whole nation was at its founding.  There are also substantial populations of
non-Christians:  Jews, Moslems, Buddhists, atheists, and so on.  So the
application of the First Amendment has changed somewhat, but the meaning
remains the same:  its purpose is to protect Americans from persecution on
the basis of religion.

To suggest that you are being persecuted by the appearance of a motto on our
currency, which merely recognizes the importance of religion in our history
and culture, is absurd.

Message: 55743
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Religion
Subject: Alan
Date: 11/27/88  Time: 11:45:45

A-L-A-N
        That is NOT what I said....   I said the "In God We Trust" does not
back or support any particular religion.  Many Religions have a God!  The
fact is in this country the majority are Christians.   You and anyone
else in this country have the right to believe in what they want, and I want
it to remain that way.

*=* SYSOP Cliff *=*

P.S.  I think J.T. has said it best...  go back and read his posts from the
past few days.  And ABSORB them!

Message: 55744
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Chomsky
Date: 11/27/88  Time: 14:03:13

  The higher truths of the state religion, which blinded
intelligence to the most elementary facts, also pervade the
mainstream scholarly literature, where we find as a point of
doctrine that Vietnamese Communists were "enflamed" by Stalin
after World War II (Walt Rostow) and that US intervention was
"aimed at forestalling a southern expansion of Chinese
communism" (John King Fairbank; an analytic error, this
distinguished historian and critic of the war believes).  In
the real world, the Vietnamese Communists did not need Stalin
to "enflame" them; French tyranny and then US subversion and
aggression sufficed.  And it was clear enough, early on, that
far from being an agency of Chinese expansionism, Vietnamese
nationalism (whether Communist or not) would be an obstacle
to it.  The role of Stalin and Mao in the US doctrinal system
was to legitimate the US assault, motivated on quite 
different grounds, as internal documents make clear.
  When the attempt to subdue South Vietnam failed, the US
widened the war to all of Indochina in a manner that 
predictably led to eventual North Vietnamese dominance after
desperately blocking efforts on all sides to neutralize
South Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia.  After failing in its 
larger aims, the US devoted itself to maximizing suffering
and repression in the societies that it had destroyed, and
helping to drive them more firmly into the hands of the USSR
by systematically closing off all other options, insofar as
possible.
  Much the same was true as the US sought to overcome the
heresy of capitalist democracy in Guatemala, which threatened
the interests of US corporations.  Guatemala was declared an
agency of the global Communist conspiracy and serious threats
were mounted against it, including even the dispatch of 
nuclear armed SAC bombers to Nicaragua, "meant, it would 
appear, as a signal of American commitment."  When in
desperation the Guatemalan government sought military aid 
from the Soviet bloc, much to the delight of the US 
government, this fact was used as part of the official
justification for restoring a military dictatorship.  Shortly
before the CIA coup, Guatemalan Foreign Minister Toriello
commented accurately that US policy amounts to
     cataloguing as 'Communism' every manifestation of
     nationalism or economic independence, any desire for
     social progress, any intellectual curiousity, and any
     interest in progressive or liberal reforms... any Latin
     American government that exerts itself to bring about a
     truly national program which affects the interests of
     the powerful foreign companies, in whose hands the   
     wealth and the basic resources in large part repose in
     Latin America, will be pointed out as Communist; it will
     be accused of being a threat to continental security and
     making a breach in continental solidarity, and so will 
     be threatened with foreign intervention.
  Toriello's words were applauded by his Latin American 
colleagues, who then proceeded to line up against him in
support of John Foster Dulles' resolution opposing the threat
of "international communism" in Guatemala (issued in Caracas,
the capital of one of the most notorious dictatorships in the
continent), in the hope of receiving US aid.

Message: 55747
Author: $ David Burkhart
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff
Date: 11/27/88  Time: 16:12:52

Your idea that "the majority RULES!" bothers me.  While I agree that the
debate over the slogan on currency is trivial, that argument is weak.  This
country was founded on the ideal of majority will balanced against minority
rights.  For example, if the majority feels that no one should own a gun,
does the government have the right to take away your firearms?
The argument that most people agree with a certain policy or action is not
strong unless it is also shown that this action does not violate individual
rights.

Message: 55748
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Burkhart
Date: 11/27/88  Time: 16:17:41

Well, no one has shown that the presence of the motto "In God We Trust" on
our currency violates anyone's rights.

Message: 55749
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Politics
Subject: Chit Chat
Date: 11/27/88  Time: 18:21:33

        I don't know any atheists who would go so far as to burn bibles
although I do know some Christians who have been trying to burn Mark Twain's
books for quite a while.
        I had several children when I was a Christian and several when I was
an agnostic, several more when I became an atheist.......does this mean that
the ones who were born when I was religions, should be religious, et cetera?
        If our founding fathers were religious does this mean there is no
change.  Get the point?
                                Rod

Message: 55750
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: JT/haw
Date: 11/27/88  Time: 18:23:08

        Now that was one of your more intelligent and to the point messages.
What dictionary did you use?
        (55741)
                                        Rod

Message: 55751
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Question?
Subject: JT
Date: 11/27/88  Time: 18:25:38

        How do you know that the purpose of the motto, "In God We Trust",
was put there to merely recognize the importance of religion in our history
and culture?
        I do believe that the motto violates the rights of atheists,
agnostics and others who do not believe in a god.  I agree it is somewhat
trivial but I think it would be better if the motto was removed from our
currency.
                                Rod

Message: 55752
Author: Sloan Tash
Category: Answer!
Subject: Computer Nerds
Date: 11/27/88  Time: 19:39:49


To being with anyone that spends there time in their rooms calling up bbs,
etc. during their spare time must be a complete and total nerd to begin
with, but to ask a person to pay $10.00 for the privillage to call and be
associated with you fucking (excuse the language) geeks, is almost
unthinkable. I mean reallistically, do really think you have the right to
ask these poor slobs for their allowance?? I mean the $5.00 a week their
mom's give them to clean their rooms and take out the garbage means alot to
these people.. It's the chance to goto skateland and go rolling skating on a
Saturday night instead of living on their computer on the weekend. I think
you should pay these nerds to call up your board.. Think about it you were
once and probally still are a fucking computer nerd.. Think what you felt
like when you were a kid and all the other kids picked on you and threw
garbage at you when you walked down the halls at school.. You should
encourage these geeks to get out of their bedrooms and try to make some
friends ( maybe other geeks, even female geeks (think about it some of you
nerds might be able to accually see what you've been jerking off to in real
life, if you tried talking to a girl.. the girls that talk to you might be
as ugly as sin, but they are real girls and they are better then some porno
magazine...)

all I have to say is get a life.. please, find out that the true meaning of
sex is not to be found in the bathroom alone, but with a girl (even an ugly
one ) in the bedroom.        -----] a concerned citizen

Bulletin Board command:EC

You chose Chit Chat

Subject:Sloan

Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
 1:        I noticed that your above message did not cost you a single penny 
 2:and no one will ask you for one.  SO, what is your problem?
 3:                                Rod
 4:P.S.  I liked your message though, it was neat.  Wanna join Apollo?  Only 
 5:ten buck a year which is only cleaning your room twice and taking out the 
 6:garbage a few times.  I haven't been out of my room in weeks because I can't
 7:figure out how to get out of this program.
 8:end

Edit command:S

Saving message...
The message is 55753

Bulletin Board command:EP

You chose Politics

Subject:MOTTO

      I do not believe that a legitimate government, one that is of
the people, for the people and by the people should sponsor any cause
where it concerns beliefs systems of its people.  Printing a motto on
its paper currency that espouses a deity, any deity, is in my opinion
in violation of government purpose.  Even if a vote reflected that 200
million people of this nation wanted a religious motto on its currency
and 50 million did not, then there should be no motto.

      David Burkhart made the point very clear in his firearm analogy
and from this I hope you can understand that when it comes to religion,
the rights of the minorities should be respected.  Religion has no
business in our government.

      James Taranto keeps saying that the motto is solely historical.
I say that some die hard religionist put this illegal saying on our
money.  Just because some of our Founding Fathers were confused does
not mean the saying should remain for as long as our country is
solvent.  I say that it slants the deck where our youth are concerned. 
I do not believe they could tell the difference between historical and
advertisement.

The message is 55754

Bulletin Board command:EC

You chose Chit Chat

Subject:JT

Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
 1:        Very clever.  You gave me a haw for every year of my life plus you 
 2:capitalized the thirty-third HAW, the year I turned atheist.  Thanks.
 3:                                Rod
 4:end

Edit command:S

Saving message...
The message is 55755

To send mail to operator use [SYSOP]
First name:JAMES
Last name:TARANTO
Send mail to James Taranto:Yes

Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
 1:        I love you.

WAY Below Normal Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 518
Author: $ James Hawley
Category: Mike Farter
Subject: Last 2
Date: 11/27/88  Time: 06:37:20

We all know that Mike doesn't have anything creative to say about any
conversation.  

Message: 519
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Hawley Crock Smith
Subject: last
Date: 11/27/88  Time: 18:32:56

        Don't tell me that Mike dwells on the negative, I though that was
reserved for me alone.  Mike has his lord helping him with his messages, I
don't have anybody.
                                Rod