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Apollo BBS Archive - March 11 - 20, 1991
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Main Menu command:U
$ Rod Williams 00:36:33 (1200)
Main Menu command:V
03/21/91 The question is: Should Bill Burkett 'Apollo Master & Arms' be
given SysOp Powers to help carry out his job on this system. The main power
in question is to be able to [Z]ap or [UIP] any BBS user's post if need be.
A BIG responsibility for sure and your ballot is requested.
[A] Yes
[B] No
[C] I don't care one way or the other.
How do you vote [A-C] or [CR] to abort:$
Poll results to date:
[A] 2 [B] 0 [C] 0
Main Menu command:B
*=* Public Bulletin Board entered *=*
Public Bulletin Board command:$C
Press [A] to abort
Message: 73703
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Annie on lakes
Date: 03/12/91 Time: 05:48:11
Goldwater lake? Gordon was talking about water skiing, Annie! You can cast a
line with a light lure practically across Goldwater lake! And Watson lake is
a puddle a good part of the year! And, as I said, it's not too easy to water
ski behind an electric trolling moter, which is all that's allowed on Lynx!
Sheesh! Catch up on the conversations girl!
Message: 73704
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Sandi/freeways
Date: 03/12/91 Time: 05:51:25
Considering the fact that you drive one of the few cars on the American road
that can be overtaken by a horse drawn hay rack, you shouldn't venture onto
the freeways at all!(smile)
Message: 73705
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Pauley on lakes
Date: 03/12/91 Time: 08:57:36
I knew that! I just wanted to show my expertise regarding Prescott.
Actually, Lynx and Goldwater are puddles too, but such a beautiful setting.
-=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73706
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: News Today
Subject: MLK day again???
Date: 03/12/91 Time: 09:03:11
Hey guys! It seems we are going to get a THIRD chance to vote of a MLK day
and save the Superbowl for Phoenix!!!! Wheee - how lucky can we get?? Just
to think how considerate our politicians are to give us three (3) tries at
this - just in case people may change their minds!! Us and poor little New
Hampshire are the only two states that don't have a King day. Gads, we do
not want to be shame faced in front of the nation do we? We don't want to
lose the Superbowl do we? We don't mind this kind of blackmail do we?? Naw!
Of course not! -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73707
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jeff/Freeway Signals
Date: 03/12/91 Time: 09:17:48
> Well, I think we are talking through each other...
I have no idea what you mean by this.
> A more interesting question is your assertion that these
> traffic signals "dramatically decreased rush hour accidents."
Jeff, I don't have any statistical evidence; no scholarly reports. I worked
evening rush hours in the DPS Phoenix Communications Center for five years.
When those metering signals were installed we were all skeptical of their
effect. But we saw an almost immediate reduction in the number of rush hour
accidents. Take the conclusion or leave it.
Message: 73708
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: I Don't Get It
Date: 03/12/91 Time: 09:18:08
It always amazes me to hear of all the troubles others have. Nearly
everyone here (except John and I) seems to have trouble getting on the
freeway; Ann complains from time to time about trouble with the bureaucrats
at the construction permit office; my wife is constantly coming home from
Smitty's fuming about some indignity the cashier heaped on her.
I just don't get it. How do I miss all these aggravations? Am I
unbelievably lucky or just too stupid to realize when I've been slighted?
Message: 73709
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Freeways
Date: 03/12/91 Time: 10:02:52
I've never had a problem getting up to speed on those few times when I've
had to enter a controlled ramp during rush hour. In fact, like someone
else, I find I've overestimated the freeway speed and need to slow down a
bit to ease in.
Message: 73710
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Freeway
Date: 03/12/91 Time: 10:20:09
The metered freeway on-ramps are a nuisance and waste gas, but I
have no trouble getting up to speed with my Mopars... Like Dog, in my Cuda,
I gotta SLOW down!
What I don't like is in exiting the freeway at Bell road where there
is a YIELD sign... most people STOP like it's a stop sign, and that pisses
me off! I can come around that curve exit, eye ball the traffic, and merge
with anything..... but sometimes have to slam on the ol'binders because some
fool is there at a dead stop waiting for traffic to compleatly VANISH before
he ventures forward. GEESH!
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 73711
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann/MLK
Date: 03/12/91 Time: 10:30:50
Re: Us and poor little New Hampshire are the only two states that don't have
a King day.
Ann, I see at least two errors in that one statment. I thought it
was MONTANA that did not have a King day. And second, we do have a King day
Ann, but not a PAID King day! That is a very important detail dear Annie!
Last, I hope this 91 ballot issue on the KING day will be the last
no matter how it turns out. Since it has Mr King's name attached, I will
VOTE "NO". Reason: I just don't like the man and his Commie connections.
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 73713
Author: $ Michael James
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff
Date: 03/12/91 Time: 15:24:49
People who STOP at YEILD signs when there is no need to are as annoying as
people who don't use their turn signals even when they can see that you
wouldn't have to sit there waiting if you knew they were going to turn.
Why do smokers throw lit cigarettes out the window? All my cars have had
ashtrays, and I don't even smoke! Ann, what's the deal here?
Message: 73714
Author: Alpo Poet
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Last
Date: 03/12/91 Time: 18:18:41
And how about people who refuse to turn right at a red light when there is
NO traffic coming from the left for a good three or four blocks?
Message: 73715
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Trumbo
Date: 03/12/91 Time: 19:12:10
Those Limeys were a funny bunch of guys. They were more
like foreigners than the Frenchmen. A Frenchman you could
understand but a Limey was always twitching his nose and you
couldn't understand him at all. When you were stationed
right next to them for two months you began to understand
just how foreign they were. They did some funny things.
There was a little Scotchman in the Limey regiment who threw
down his gun and quit the war when he heard that the Huns
on the other side of Nomansland were Bavarians. The little
Scotchman said that the Bavarians were commanded by Crown
Prince Rupert and that the Crown Prince was the last Stuart
heir to the throne of England and the rightful king and that
he would be goddamed if he would fight his king just because
some Hanoverian pretender told him to.
Now in any ordinary army they would take you out and shoot
you for a thing like that. But that's the way the Limeys
were funny. This little guy caused a hell of a stink. Two
or threee of his officers argued with him very politely
instead of shooting him and when they couldn't get him to
see things their way they called the colonel. So the
colonel came and had a long talk with the Scotchman and
everybody seemed puzzled and the Scotchman got tougher and
tougher and dared them to shoot him because he said his
court martial would bring out the truth that everything was
Message: 73716
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Trumbo
Date: 03/12/91 Time: 19:16:21
a fraud and King George would have to resign and how would
Lloyd George like that? The colonel went away and the
Scotchman stayed sitting down on the bottom of the trench
and pretty soon there came an order from G.H.Q. transferring
him back of the lines for six weeks or until the Bavarians
went away so he wouldn't have to fire in the direction of
troops commanded by his king. That was how funny Limeys
were and that was how both the Americans and the Limeys knew
there were Bavarians across from them.
...
Message: 73717
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Joke
Subject: Andy Rooney
Date: 03/12/91 Time: 20:17:43
His arm is very long.
Message: 73718
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: News Today
Subject: I'm Back!
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 00:15:40
I return from 6 weeks in Dallas, gladly. I was amazed at many things
there, and few of them were favorable.
See You Later,
Dean H.
Message: 73720
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: In search of
Subject: -K. (1/13)
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 02:30:48
I hadn't intended to post anything on the subject of negative Kelvin
temperatures, though the subject is intriguing. For one thing, my exposure
to thermodynamics is limited to a single, 122 page book, whose primary
emphasis is the production of extreme temperatures, not thermodynamic
theory, and in which the rather esoteric subject of negative Kelvin
temperatures is limited to 11 pages. But a recent discussion of the subject
with another Apollo user has stimulated me to attempt its exposition,
perhaps with greater clarity than was possible without the immediate use of
references. In considering how best to go about this, I determined two
possible lines of attack:
(1) A proper treatment, requiring a review of fundamental concepts, as well
as the explication of a variety of obscure but important qualifying
restrictions.
(2) An oversimplified treatment, taking much knowledge for granted, and
omitting a variety of conditional restrictions without which my explanations
would become meaningless or inaccurate in the context of certain
applications.
I decided on the second option. This will save me a great deal of time
and typing, as well as the need to review and research various concepts
which at present I do not fully grasp, or am entirely ignorant of.
Message: 73721
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: (2/13)
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 02:31:36
Now I shall contradict what I have just said, to a degree determined by
by the casting of I-Ching sticks. First, allow me to complain about the
way scientists use words. Scientists have this annoying tendency to use the
same words to describe different things. Not only do they do this when they
change theories within a field, but they also do this within different
fields which are contemporaneous. In mechanics, "work" is the acceleration
of a mass, by a force, through a distance, along the line through which the
force is acting. In thermodynamics, work is something else, and under this
definition the acceleration of an object in free-fall by a gravitational
field is not work. At times, it all becomes too much for the little grey
cells.
Beyond this, one would think that the fundamental terms of a science
would be the easiest part of the study of that science. It has been my
experience, though this may be idiosyncratic, that the more advanced parts
of a science (up to a point) are much simpler, because they rest on the
foundation provided by the fundamental concepts, while the fundamental
concepts rest on nothing and so are unintelligible. These fundamental
concepts are defined in a tautologous manner, so in order to relate them
to any real phenomena, it is not sufficient to know the definition, but
in fact, their real meaning can only be discerned by thoroughly examining
their applications. Unfortunately, if you look long enough, you will
discover, even within a single, contemporary branch of science, applications
which betray the working definition of the fundamental concept by rendering
it inconsistent through mutual contradictions. And so it goes.
Message: 73722
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: 3/13
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 02:32:19
The term "energy" refers to the capacity to do work. "Heat" is the
*transfer* of energy between two systems which is solely due to a difference
in temperature between the systems. "Temperature" measures a property
of matter which determines whether or not a system will be in thermal
equilibrium with another system with which it is in, or could be put into,
contact with. However, this contact need not be physical, nor need their be
material carriers, since heat can be transferred by radiation without the
mediation of material particles. "Thermal equilibrium" occurs when there
is no net flow of heat between the systems in contact. According to my
reference, "neither the mass, nor the density, the 'elastic modulus', the
electric charge, nor the magnetic state -- in fact none of the qualities of
importance to mechanics, electricity, or magnetism -- determines thermal
equilibrium." Only the temperature. An isolated system can be spoken of
as being in thermal equilibrium; but really, this means that there is no
net flow of heat between various defined components of the system.
Now, even though energy is the capacity to do work, and heat is a form
of energy, heat, which is to say, the transfer of thermal energy, is not
work. Heat can be converted to work -- for example, a steam engine. This
is further complicated by the way some writers refer to the heat "in a
body." I gather this is a misuse of the term. And yet, temperature is
sometimes described as a measure of the thermal energy of "random" motions
of particles in a system in thermal equilibrium.
Message: 73723
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: 4/13
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 02:33:21
But only a *change* in the "thermodynamic energy" or internal energy of a
system can be measured. And this change involves the *flow* of heat and
the accomplishment of work. Now how much would you pay? But wait --
there's more!
It's time to introduce a very nasty word. I know the SysOp has strict
standards set for the PUBlic board, so I beg his indulgence. The word is
[gasp] "entropy." This word is used in about a dozen different ways. One
interesting fact about entropy is that changes in it can only be calculated
for "reversible" processes -- which are processes where the system and its
surroundings are nicely behaved: there are no complications like
acceleration, waves, eddies, turbulence, friction, etc. Every property like
pressure, temperature, magnetization, etc., is *uniform* throughout the
system, so that a single value of a property can describe the entire system,
and the system is close to equilibrium the entire time, and the process
takes place in infinitesimal steps. However, all real processes are
*irreversable*, so that entropy changes for actual processes must be
calculated by postulating "equivalent" theoretical reversible changes.
Are we having fun yet? Entropy, by the way, was originally introduced to
facilitate the calculations of thermodynamics.
Entropy is often described as a measure of the amount of energy which,
through heat, can be converted to work. If a hot and cold reservoir are
brought into contact (and isolated from everything else), the difference in
temperature will cause heat, that is, a transfer of energy due to
temperature difference.
Message: 73725
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: 6/13
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 02:35:20
However, this is a figment of the imagination, since real gases are
inelastic in their collision processes.
Another problem is that this concept of temperature is only
meaningful for systems which are in equilibrium. Actually, it would be
more accurate to say that *the* concept of temperature only has meaning
when applied to systems which are at or (more realistically) close to
thermal equilibrium. When equilibrium is absent, the quantities which are
call temperature are merely parameters calculated from specific properties
and areas of the system.
Entropy is also often described as a measure of the "disorder" of a
system. As entropy increases, so does disorder. I have never been able
to make heads or tails of this. It is easy to select examples which have
an intuitive appeal to this interpretation of the concept of entropy.
But it is equally easy to select examples where the application of the
terms "order" and "disorder" seem utterly capricious. For example,
when the volume *only* of a gas is increased, entropy and hence "disorder"
increases. Why voluminous gases should be considered any more disorderly
than more compact gases, I don't know. Similarly, when temperature *only*
is increased, entropy and hence "disorder" increases.
Thoroughly confused? Excellent! Now that we are on an equal footing,
I can proceed to the elucidation of the concept of negative Kelvin
temperature. I will now proceed as I had originally intended and announced.
(Actually, I don't.)
Message: 73726
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: 7/13
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 02:36:05
From now on, the concepts of temperature and entropy will interpreted
in terms of statistical mechanics, a branch of thermodynamics which applies
probability theory to interpret thermal properties of matter.
As an illustration, consider a system which consists of an enormous
number N (around 10**20) of identical particles. Ideally, each molecule
is almost independent of the others, colliding only occasionally, and
interacting weakly through electric or magnetic fields. Each molecule is
capable of existing only in special discrete states whose energies are u0,
u1, u2 . . . A microscopic description of the overall state of the system
of N molecules specifies that there are:
n0 molecules in the state 0 with energy u0,
n1 molecules in the state 1 with energy u1,
n2 molecules in the state 2 with energy u2,
and so on for all of the molecules. The number of molecules (n's) in each
state are called the populations of the states. The populations depend on
how close to equilibrium the system is, and as the system approaches
equilibrium, the populations change until they reach their equilibrium
values.
In our system, which has a constant number of particles and a constant
*total* energy, there are a variety of ways in which the populations could
exist. To simplify matters for the point of example, imagine for the moment
a system of just three particles A, B, and C. And imagine just four energy
levels 0,1,2, and 3.
Message: 73727
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: 8/13
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 02:36:46
Suppose the energy total of these three particles must remain constant at
a value of 3. This might be satisfied by having all three particles at
energy state 1, that is, 1+1+1=3. Or, two particles might have energy level
zero, while the third could occupy level 3, so that 0+0+3=3. Or, one
particle could have energy level 0, the second could have level 1, and the
third could have level 3, so that 0+1+2=3.
Now, in the first instance, since there are three particles all occupying
the same level, there is only one way for that state to occur. In the
second instance, with two at level 0 and one at level 3, there are three
ways to do this, depending on which particle occupies level 3. In the third
instance, there are six ways for the state to occur. These exhaust the
possible states of a total constant energy level of 3.
In our system, as originally defined, each of the 10**20 particles is
capable of existing in an infinite number of discrete energy states. Since
this is the way most systems are, we can call our system "normal." If this
system is left to itself and subject only to the restrictions of constant
number of particles and constant total energy, it will end up in the state
of highest probability. This is the equilibrium state. Remember, in the
equilibrium state, "entropy" is at a maximum. So there is a connection
between the two.
Message: 73728
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: 9/13
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 02:37:46
Some guy named Boltzmann figured out this connection. It is:
S = k * ln P
where S is entropy, k is Boltzmann's constant, and P is the thermodynamic
probability of the state. "ln" is "natural logorithm of" in case that
wasn't obvious from my notation. If you're really interested, ln P is:
N! / (n0! * n1! * n2!...)
where N is the number of particles in the system, and the n's refer to the
populations. The exclamation point is the "factorial" symbol and means
multiply that integer by all lower integers down to and including "1".
So, old Boltzmann knew that S = k * ln P = a maximum. Well, skipping
the details, he finally came up with "Boltzmann's equation" :
ni / n0 = e ** - [(ui - u0) / k * T]
I apologise for the notation, but it's tough on a BBS. n(sub)i is the
population of state i, u(sub)i is the energy of state i, e is the base of
natural logarithms, k is Boltzmann's constant, and T is the temperature in
Kelvins (Kelvin degrees).
What all this means is that Boltzmann's equation tells the ratio of the
population of *any* energy state to that of the first or lowest state.
Since ui - u0 is positive and kT is positive (for positive Kelvin
temperatures), ni is always less than n0, that is, population of an
upper state is always less than that of any lower state (since any lower
state can be used as a base of minimum energy). The higher the energy of
ui, the smaller the population for all *positive* values of T.
Message: 73729
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: 10/13
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 02:38:47
As the temperature increases without bound, the distribution becomes more
and more equal, so that at "infinite temperature" all the levels would be
equally populated, but since there are an infinite number of levels, this
would require an infinite amount of energy. Incidentally, these energy
levels are not purely kinetic, but the kinetic energy can be derived by
integrating and subtracting various terms which refer to potential energy.
For some systems, however, the number of energy levels are finite. For
example, the nuclear magnets of the lithium ions in a lithium floride
crystal can have four energy levels in a magnetic field.
Actually, in order to achieve negative temperatures, in addition to the
requirement of finite energy levels, the particles in the system must
come to equilibrium with each other very rapidly, but only come to
equilibrium with the surrounding environment slowly enough so that an
experiment can be accomplished. And oh, did I forget to explain the
concept of magnetic temperature? Too bad. It's too much work now.
Where was I? Most systems have an infinite number of energy levels, and
as the temperature is raised, more and more molecules are raised to higher
energy levels. This requires more and more energy, and results in greater
and greater "disorder" as the particles are distributed over more and more
levels. According to this interpretation then, a guy who keeps each pair
of socks in its own drawer is more disordered than a guy who puts them all
into the same drawer. Go figure.
Message: 73730
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: 11/13
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 02:39:26
I am really getting tired of this. Let me skip to the end conclusion.
For positive temperatures, there are more particles in the lower levels than
in the upper levels, although this ratio evens out as the temperature
increases. In a system with infinite energy levels, it takes an infinite
amount of energy to totally even out the distribution, so forget that. Going
back to the Boltzmann equation, if a system has an infinite number of energy
levels, an increase in temperature produces increased populations of higher
and higher energy levels, but no energy level gets populated more than the
one below it, so that the ratio ni/n0 is always less than one and T is
positive. at T= infinity, ni would equal n0 but this is impossible because
it requires infinite energy. For T to be negative then, ni would have to be
LARGER than n0, which is to say that the upper levels would have to be
populated more than the lower levels. This would require MORE than infinite
energy which is even sillier.
In a magnetic field, nuclear magnets aligned against the direction of the
field have a higher energy than those aligned in the same direction. Under
ordinary circumstances, there are many fewer nuclear magnets in the higher
levels than in the lower. The subsystem of nuclear magnets is in
equilibrium with itself and also with the crystal lattice in which it
exists, and both the subsystem and its surroundings have the same positive
temperature.
Message: 73731
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: 12/13
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 02:40:21
Now, if the magnetic field is reversed so quickly that the nuclear magnets
are unable to follow the change of direction of the field, the large number
of magnets which were formerly aligned in the lower energy state in the
direction of the field, will now be aligned in the higher energy state
against the field. There are now more magnets in the higher state than in
the lower. You'll notice that I am only dealing with two states, not four.
Too bad. It is much easier for me to illustrate the point with two.
Anyway, this is called a "population inversion." The magnets come
to equilibrium with each other very quickly, but take from 5 to 30 minutes
to come to equilibrium with the rest of the lattice.
At this point, the addition of energy will push more magnets into the
upper level, but since the number of levels are finite, this has the result
of concentrating (why did I agree to this?) more magnets in the same level,
and so an increase in energy actually decreases the entropy. Sigh. In any
case, more magnets are in the upper level than the lower, and so ni/n0 is
negative.
Don't ask me what this means in terms of the sensation of heat.
Nothing is colder than absolute zero, but mathematically, negative
temperatures are "hotter" than infinity. Yeah, I know.
Message: 73732
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: 13/13 (Hallelujah!)
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 02:41:32
Anyway, getting back to the practical applications of our inverted system
of nuclear magnets, when a beam of microwaves with what I will refer to as
a "sympathetic" wavelength is sent through lithium nuclei in a state of
positive temperature, more elements are in a lower state, and the beam is
reduced in intensity by absorption. When the population inversion has
occured and there are more nuclei in the higher, excited state than the
lower, the beam is increased in intensity by causing transitions of the
excited nuclei into lower levels. This is a MASER (microwave amplification
by stimulated emission of radiation.
I refuse to type another word.
Message: 73733
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Annie's puddles
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 05:25:28
True, the whole Prescott area is beautiful. Too bad it's so close to
Phoenix. It makes for far too many people at Lynx who have no clue of what
camping is all about. Rude, inconsiderate, sloppy people, many of whom are
too lazy to even take their trash to the nearest barrel and who leave their
campsite in a shambles. I prefer taking a longer time getting to a place
like White Horse lake near Williams or better yet, Luna lake near Alpine.
Takes a while to get there, but it's well worth the trip.
Goldwater lake is nice, though. The last time I was there, they didn't have
any camping facilities, so it more or less kept the trash out.
Message: 73734
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Traffic aggravations
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 05:32:44
While we're at it, how about the Iowa Caddilac I was following a few years
ago on McDowell, eastbound at 6 corners. When the light turned green for
Mcdowell, he began his turn, and before he got all the way around to Grand
Ave. SE bound, he saw the red light for Grand Ave. traffic. Believe it or
not, he stopped! And stayed there through the whole cycle, horns blaring at
him and everything, until the light turned green for Grand Ave. before he
moved!
Why these corn farmers don't stay on their tractors back in the cornfield
is beyond me! NO! They have to trade them in on a Caddy and retire to
Phoenix!
Message: 73735
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Question?
Subject: last 13
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 05:36:34
Has anyone actually READ all that?
Does anyone really CARE?
I'll probably get shouted down, but I respectfully propose a 2 message limit
on any given topic by any single author at any one time.
Message: 73736
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Todd Reese????
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 05:42:39
Did I REALLY see a post by the one and only Todd Reese in the BIO SIG?
Hey Toddy! What rock did you come out from under? Haven't heard from you in
ages, and you still have $tatus? Like, WOW!
Message: 73737
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bill on signals
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 07:01:19
I guess one thing is at least established - they are a pain in the neck. But
then, so are all stop lights er? Ha. -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73738
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff on MLK
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 07:10:17
I got the New Hampshire from the paper. That's all it said - nothing about
Montana.
What I don't understand is why we are having this vote when ... we already
have a M.L.K. day - the people have already voted against it twice, right?
What do we have to do, bash our politicians over the head to make then see?
I have always been for MLK as you know - admired and respected him and feel
he deserves a holiday - ALONG with many others that do - BUT - if the people
of this state do not want it whether it be a paid holiday, or they just
don't like the man or what ever, then their voices should be heard above the
Superbowl roar! I also balk at a minority having so much power (these black
groups) over the minority. Our country is based on majority rule and it
should stay that way. -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73739
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Michael on throwing
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 07:15:20
Don't ask me - I never throw lit cigarettes out the car window. And besides,
I don't smoke.
There is a yield sign not too far from my house that you'd better stop or
you just might get in an accident. It is a very dangerous intersection in a
nice quiet track, but that is deceiving. Not only do you have to stop you've
also got to creep out slowly or someone is just liable to clobber you. Many
people including myself have written to the proper powers to get a stop sign
put in there, but so far .........! -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73740
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Answer!
Subject: Alpo on stoppers
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 07:16:31
These people that do not turn right when it's safe to do so, probably are
from Calif. -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73741
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Pauley on lakes
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 07:23:18
I guess one man's meat is another man's poison er? We have been to that lake
near Alpine and all the other very beautiful ones all over the White
Mountains - we lived up there for 5 loooooooooooong yearss! But I hated all
of it! Yeah - I'm warped I know, but so much beauty got to me. I got sick of
it and wanted to hear traffic noises and sirens and see flowers and grass in
bloom etc. etc. Guess I'm a city girl at heart. We had a great little lake
across the highway from where we lived - Meadow lake or something like that.
We only went a couple of times - it was boring. Give me lake Pleasant or
Havasu where you can hear the roar of powerful engines and see water skiiers
and jet skis! Ha. -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73742
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Paul/Alpine
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 08:02:54
Ah, Alpine. One of my favorite places. The family and I rent a cabin there
for a week every year. Don't like to hike much; not much of a fisherman.
But, jeez, it's sure beautiful up there! (And pretty cheap, too. We
usually get the cabin for the five of us for a little over $100 for five
days.)
This is scary, Paul. We've agreed on two issues over the last couple days.
Message:
Public Bulletin Board command:EC
You chose Chit Chat
Subject:Jeff/Your 13 msgs.
Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
1:Although I will read your messages off-line, from what I could scan they
2:looked very interesting. Thanks for taking the time.
3:end
Edit command:S
Saving message...
The message is 73959
Public Bulletin Board command:$RC
Press [A] to abort
Message: 73743
Author: $ Steve MacGregor
Category: War!
Subject: Cliff/Lay Off!
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 09:08:59
Anyone who doesn't like thirteen-parters can simply hit the [Q] key
thirteen times real fast (and we can all count that high, can't we?), or hit
the [A], and type in another RCnnnn- command (where nnnn is the number of
part one, plus thirteen.
Some things simply can't be stated clearly in one or two 24-line posts.
This is not to say that Jeff can post anything clearly, though.
We all live in a ....,,,,________nnhn____ yellow subroutine
Message: 73744
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: War!
Subject: Steve M on Cliff
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 10:15:04
Re: Cliff/Lay off
I did not say a thing, that was Paul Savage's message, who by the way has a
right to his opinion. In this case I would suggest he hit the [S]kip key
as I do know that sometimes it takes more than one or two posts to get a
theory or statement across clearly. I do like it when the users such as
Jeff Beck use the 1 of 13, 2 of 13, etc. count to warn users that they
either need to open their capture buffer or hit the [S]kip key for said
number of posts.
For me to limit the number of posts for $tatus members would be
WRONG on my part. I feel that good judgement has been used by Jeff, Gordon,
Apro and others.... so far.
Besides, it has helped scroll all those nasty "War in the Gulf" posts
off.... Thank God!
So Mr. MacGregor, there is no reason to go to war with me.... unless,
you really want to go deep into the MacPhantom Zone?
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 73745
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Lakes
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 12:03:58
I used to live 7 miles up the road from Lynx lake.
Message: 73746
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Trumbo
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 18:05:45
...
Someone was kissing his temple. There was a slight
tickling of hair as the kiss was given. He was being kissed
by a man with a moustache. First his left temple and then
his right one. Then he knew what they had done to him.
They had come into his room and they had decorated him with
a medal. He new furthermore that he must be in France
instead of England because French generals were the ones
who always kissed you when they handed out medals. Still
that might not be true. American generals and English
generals shook your hand but since he had no hand to shake
maybe this was an Englishman or an American who had decided
to follow the French custom because there was no other way
to do it. But still the chances now seemed even that he was
in France.
When he snapped back from thinking of where he was and
adjusting himself to the idea that it might be France he was
a little surprised to find that he was getting mad. They
had given him a medal. Three or four big guys famous guys
who still had arms and legs and who could see and talk and
smell and taste had come into his room and they had pinned a
medal on him. They could afford to couldn't they the dirty
bastards? That was all they ever had time to do just run
around putting medals on guys and feeling important and smug
Message: 73747
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Trumbo
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 18:15:23
about it. How many generals got killed in the war? There
was Kitchener of course but that was an accident. How many
others? Name them name any of the soft-living sonsofbitches
and you could have them. How many of them had got all shot
up so they had to live wrapped in a sheet for the rest of
their lives? They had a lot of guts coming around and
giving medals.
When he had thought for an instant that his mother and his
sisters and Kareen might be standing beside the bed he had
wanted to hide. But now that he had generals and big guys
he felt a sudden fierce surging desire for them to see him.
Just as before he had started to reach for the medal without
an arm to reach with so now be began to blow the mask off
his face without having mouth and lips to blow with. He
wanted them to get just one look at that hole in his head.
He wanted them to get their fill of a face that began and
ended with a forehead. He lay there blowing and then he
realized that the air from his lungs was all escaping
through his tube. He began to roll again from shoulder to
shoulder hoping to dislodge the mask.
While he lay there rolling and puffing he felt a vibration
way down in his throat a vibration that might be a voice.
It was a short deep vibration and he knew that it was making
a sound to their ears. Not a very big sound not a very
Message: 73748
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Trumbo
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 18:20:17
intelligent sound but it must seem to them at least as
interesting as the grunting of a pig. And if he could grunt
like a pig why then he was accomplishing a great thing
because before he had been completely silent. So he lay
thrashing and puffing and grunting like a pig hoping that
they would see damned well how much he appreciated their
medal. While he was in the middle of this there was an
indefinite churning of footsteps and then the departing
vibrations of his guests. A moment later he was all alone
in the blackness in the silence. He was all alone with his
medal.
...
Message: 73749
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: SysOp
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 19:52:54
I respectfully request that Paul Savage be put into the Zone as punishment
for his impertinence.
Message: 73750
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: B. Dog/Title 28
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 20:04:10
You know, reading over those articles, I see nothing which specifically
excludes divided highways, though their wording does allow inferences to be
made.
28-724 When Overtaking On The Right Is Permitted
A. The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass upon the right of
another vehicle only under the following conditions:
1. When the vehicle overtaken is making or about to make a left turn.
2. Upon a street or highway with unobtructed pavement not occupied by
parked vehicles of sufficient width for two or more lines of moving vehicles
in each direction.
3. Upon a one-way street, or upon any roadway on which traffic is
restricted to one direction of movement, where the roadway is free from
obstructions and of sufficient width for two or more lines of moving
vehicles.
B. The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass another vehicle upon the
right only under conditions permitting the movement in safety. In no event
shall the movement be made by driving off the pavement or main-traveled
portion of the roadway.
Now, it appears you have inferred the exclusion of divided highways on the
basis of the reference to parked cars. But subsection A.2 does not restrict
itself to highways where cars can be parked; it merely deals with that
special case within a broader context.
Message: 73751
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Answer!
Subject: highways
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 22:04:40
Yes, it appears that A.3 allows for passing on the right on divided
highways. Note to any who have to take the written test in the future. "B"
is a favorite trick -- you can't leave the pavement to pass stopped traffic
on the right... so beware of those shoulders!
Message: 73752
Author: $ Peter Petrisko
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: FREEWAYS
Date: 03/13/91 Time: 22:30:10
The back tire on the passenger side of my truck blew out while I was
driving on the freeway this morning.
This is my contribution to the ongoing "freeway" discussion. Thank
you.
Message: 73753
Author: $ Todd Reese
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Paul Savage
Date: 03/14/91 Time: 04:06:18
Those wondering what happened to me should read msg 17 on the BIO sig. I
updated it.
(Now where did I put that hula skirt?)
Message: 73754
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Question?
Subject: ANNIE??????
Date: 03/14/91 Time: 05:48:39
YOU DON'T SMOKE?????????
When did you quit?
If that's true, HALLELUJAH!!!!
Message:
Public Bulletin Board command:EC
You chose Chit Chat
Subject:Freeway discussion
Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
1:Cars are monsters.
2:end
Edit command:S
Saving message...
The message is 73960
Public Bulletin Board command:$RC
Press [A] to abort
Message: 73755
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bill/Alpine
Date: 03/14/91 Time: 05:51:43
Yeah, I'm getting woried about all this agreement, too, but who could argue
about the beauty of the White Mountain area, the Blue river, Alpine,
Hannigan's Meadow and such? WHen God created the earth, I think he kissed
that area just for good measure.
Message: 73756
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jeff
Date: 03/14/91 Time: 05:54:03
I'm not sure how to spell a raspberry, but consider my tongue stuck out in
your direction. BRRRRRRRRRRRRP!
Message: 73757
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: News Today
Subject: Republic (1/2)
Date: 03/14/91 Time: 07:40:59
There is an article in today's Republic on page A-11, with the alarming
headline "Guns outrank diseases as killer of teen-age boys." In it, U.S.
Secretary of Health and Human Services Louis Sullivan is quoted as saying
that more teen-age boys die of gunshots than from all natural causes
combined. He cited a study by the Health and Human Services Department's
National Center for Health Statistics.
The Republic article is practically worthless, however. How are "teen-
age boys" defined? One would think that such a group includes all U.S.
males between the ages of 13 and 19. But the study cited, at least as
quoted in the Republic, only mentions boys from 15-19. What about 13 and
14 year-olds?
And how does he calculate the number of deaths from gunshot wounds? Is
he talking about the number of homicide deaths, which according to the study
cited amount to 1,408 males between the ages of 15-19 in 1988? Or is he
counting the total number of firearms deaths in that group, a figure that
includes accidents and suicides? This figure is substantially higher,
totalling 2,752 males between 15 and 19 in 1988.
And how many males between 15 and 19 died from "natural causes?" The
article doesn't say!
Sullivan is also quoted as saying that in the "black community," 86
percent of children spend part of their childhood living in a mother-only
family. Where does he get this figure? How is it calculated? Does it
include single, temporarily divorced mothers? Does it include families
whose fathers travel alone for business purposes? We aren't told.
Message: 73758
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: News Today
Subject: Republic (2/2)
Date: 03/14/91 Time: 08:00:13
And when all is said and done, what does this mean, even if substantiated?
Is it significant? After all, how many 15-19 year-olds are afflicted with
fatal diseases? How many 15-19 year-old males have terminal cancer,
heart-disease, and so forth?
As usual, the "statisticulation" says nothing, but is presented in a manner
calculated to manipulate us into filling in the blanks, which is to say,
jumping to the implied but unsupported conclusions. What are these
conclusions?
Guns are baaaad things and we should probably remove them from society, or
at least pass lots more ineffectual and downright pernicious legislation.
This reminds me of a debate held on Macneil/Lehrer the other evening. The
liberal sociologists, as usual, blamed crime on the availability of guns, on
poverty, and on the lack of opportunity for minorities. A judge, who grew
up in the Bronx responded that when he was young, he and other walked the
streets of Spanish Harlem at night without fear, and often slept with
windows open, etc. He commented that poverty was greater at that time, and
that opportunities, educational as well as employment, were considerably
more restricted for minorities.
One of the anti-gun lobbyists ranted about "semi-automatic machineguns,"
an oxymoron which gave evidence of both his ignorance and hysteria.
Message: 73759
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Paul/Alpine
Date: 03/14/91 Time: 08:42:24
> WHen God created the earth, I think he kissed that area
> [Alpine] just for good measure.
And here I thought it was just a happy accident!
Luna Lake is a hole, though. My dad and I got caught on it in a row boat in
a sudden, very strong thunderstorm. It was quite exhilarating.
Message: 73760
Author: $ Michael James
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: lake debate
Date: 03/14/91 Time: 09:56:30
I rode those "death skis" a couple times in that lake in the middle of
Denver with about as much success as I had at regular water skiing.
Maybe I would enjoy fishing. That was pretty fun when I was a kid, though I
rarely caught anything.
Message: 73761
Author: $ Sandi Marlin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: paul/race...?
Date: 03/14/91 Time: 17:41:35
If you drive a non-sport 4 or 6 cyllinder vehicle, I WILL beat you to 40 mph
plus...it may only do 13 sec 0-60's, but up to 40, it will run hood to hood
with 10 sec 0-60 cars...
2300 pound car with 3.50 gears with 90 hp and 120 ft/lbs of torque may not
be drag race material, but it will (as my old friends used to say) put the
average little new car "on hold"...considering that it weighs [less] than
some of the Japanese cars with somewhat more hp and torque means that it
beats them at their own game, at least for a while...
[smile...!]
Message: 73762
Author: $ Sandi Marlin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: freeway merging
Date: 03/14/91 Time: 17:47:32
When you drive a car which is relatively slow at freeway speeds, you learn
to Merge from a Position of Power...ie, make sure you're going at least 5 to
10 mph faster than the regular traffic by the time you're ready to merge.
While my poor little Ford gets put into the role of Road Warrior at street
speeds, when it comes to freeways, I can brake far faster than I can
accelerate.
As for rush hour, I instinctively gravitate towards minor streets. Plenty of
experience of delivery driving and rental car shuffling taught me that
anyone who would get onto a freeway during rush hour who has any possible
alternatives is a fool. Easy enough solution to the traffic light problem
for me, since I would never consider using the freeways during rush hour as
there is nowhere that I go that I couldn't get there faster on an overland
route during that time.
Message: 73763
Author: $ Sandi Marlin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: traffic stupids
Date: 03/14/91 Time: 17:49:53
Almost as annoying as the people who stop at yield signs are the ones who
sit at intersections waiting for an arrow to make a left turn when there are
absolutely no arrows at that intersection. Or the ones who think that once
the arrow disappears (other than at intersections where you are specifically
told 'left turn on arrow only') they have to wait for the next light cycle.
Argh!
Message: 73764
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Trumbo
Date: 03/14/91 Time: 18:31:19
...
When he was a kid way back maybe four years ago or five he
had a wireless set. He and Bill Harper used to telegraph
each other. Dot dash dot dash dot. Particularly on rainy
nights when their folks wouldn't let them go out and there
was nothing to do and they just lounged around the house and
got in everybody's way. On such nights he and Bill Harper
used to dot and dash at each other and they had a hell of a
good time. He still remembered the Morse code. All he had
to do in order to break through to people in the outside
world was to lie in bed and dot dash to the nurse. Then he
could talk. Then he would have smashed through his silence
and blackness and helplessness. Then the stump of a man
without lips would talk. He had captured time and he had
tried to figure geography and now he would do the greatest
thing of them all he would talk. He would give messages and
receive messages and he would have made another step forward
in his struggle to get back to people in this terrible
lonely eagerness for the feel of people near him for the
things that were in their minds for the thoughts they might
give him his own thoughts were so puny so unfinished so
incomplete. He would talk.
Tentatively he raised his head from the pillow and let it
fall back again. Then he did it twice quickly. That would
Message: 73765
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Trumbo
Date: 03/14/91 Time: 18:41:40
be a dash and two dots. The letter d. He tapped out SOS
against his pillow. Dot-dot-dot dot dot dot-dot-dot. SOS.
Help. If there was anybody in the whole world needed help
he was the guy and now he was asking for it. He wished the
nurse would hurry back. He began to tap out questions.
What time is it? What's the date? Where am I? Is the sun
shining or is it cloudy? Does anybody know who I am? Do my
folks know I'm lying here? Don't tell them. Don't let them
know anything about it. SOS. Help.
The door of the room jarred open and the nurse's footsteps
came up to the bed. He began to tap out more frantically
now. Here he was right on the brink of finding people of
finding the world of finding a big part of life itself. Tap
tap tap. He was waiting for her to tap tap tap in
response. A tap against his forehead or his chest. Even if
she didn't know the code she could tap just to let him know
she understood what he was doing. Then she could rush away
for someone who could help her get what he was saying. SOS.
SOS. SOS. Help.
He felt the nurse standing there looking down at him
trying to figure out what he was doing. The mere
possibility that she didn't understand after all he had gone
through before discovering it himself shocked him into such
excitement and fear that he began to grunt again. He lay
Message: 73766
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Trumbo
Date: 03/14/91 Time: 18:44:29
grunting and tapping grunting and tapping until the muscles
in the back of his neck ached until his head ached until he
felt that his chest would burst from his eagerness to shout
out to explain to her what he was trying to do. And still
he felt her standing motionless beside his bed looking down
and wondering.
...
Message: 73767
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bill/storms
Date: 03/15/91 Time: 05:20:28
I got caught in a violent storm one day in Salome cove on Roosevelt lake,
and had to negotiate clear across the lake in a 12' boat with a 3 horse
motor. If you think that a trip across Luna is "exhilarating", you ought to
try THAT on for size!
Any lake is a good place not to be in a thunderstorm, however. Since I once
saw lightning strike a small boat in the middle of a lake, I get off the
water at the first thundercloud sighting.
Message: 73768
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Sandi/race?
Date: 03/15/91 Time: 05:23:52
Just you wait until I feed my old horse a little hat, and I'll take you on!
Actually, I run around in a 1 ton Dodge Maxivan, and don't even think in
terms of racing. Just go with the flow, gal, just go with the flow.....
Message: 73769
Author: $ Steve MacGregor
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Traffic
Date: 03/15/91 Time: 09:23:09
I tend to take back streets almost exclusively, and avoid
heavily-traveled roads like Scottsdale and Thomas.
My 18-speed Murray may be short on horsepower, but you can't
beat it for economy!
We all live in a ....,,,,________nnhn____ yellow subroutine
Message: 73770
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Paul/Lake Storms
Date: 03/15/91 Time: 09:25:18
We were headed to the shore before any storm clouds seemed close at all, but
they caught us. Oh well. At least it gave Mom a good scare. 8^O
Message: 73771
Author: $ Sandi Marlin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: paul/race
Date: 03/15/91 Time: 10:56:01
You know me...jes' kidding.
Message: 73772
Author: Ken Aback
Category: On the Lighter Side
Subject: ilfe
Date: 03/15/91 Time: 17:29:31
ATTENTION ATTENTION ATTENTION ATTENTION
Are you worried about being caught on video tape clubbing some
one down. You now can enroll in advanced individual harassment
classes. You will learn both theory and practical methods of
using chemistry and psychology to accomplish the same goals.
Learn how to hold court with out the victim there to justify your
actions. Learn how to push your victim to the point of depression,
suicide , murder or physical and mental deterioration. Learn how
to an induced asthma attacks or mental hallucinations thru the use
of small spray bottles of chemicals. Learn what methods are condoned
by the media. Never again will you be on the receiving end of
that video tape. Classes open now contact.
Controlled Individual Aggression
P.O. box 00000
9999 Nowhere
Phoenix, Az 12345
Message: 73773
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: News Today
Subject: hostages
Date: 03/15/91 Time: 17:55:33
Tonight I caught the tail end of a story on the hostages being held by
Shiite extremists. There was a little ceremony taking place, in a church, I
think, where 70 small children were brought out one at a time. Each one
held a card with the name of a month held on it; a card for each month Terry
Anderson has been held captive. This was accompanied by folk musicians
playing accoustic guitar and singing a repetitive song with the lyrics "Free
Terry Anderson." Supposedly, this was directed at the captors.
How touching. I'm sure it warmed the hearts of most American TV viewers.
Can't you just imagine the response of the kidnappers:
"Look at that. Gosh! We really *ought* to let him go."
Message: 73774
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: News Today
Subject: the system sucks
Date: 03/15/91 Time: 18:08:37
On Wednesday, Justice Thomas B. Galligan sentenced Steven Lopez to one and a
half to four and a half years in prison in a plea agreement. You may
remember the Central Park jogger case, in which a 30 year old female jogger
and investment banker was raped, sodomized, beaten, and left for dead.
Lopez, who is the "alleged" ringleader, was a minor at the time. He had
been charged with attempted murder, sodomy, and rape, in that case, as well
as charges in attacks on two male joggers. But in a plea agreement, he got
these charges dropped in exchange for pleading guilty to a single count of
robbery.
The judge called Lopez "one of the most vicious attackers in the mob." Boy,
you can bet that stern reprimand will make him think twice. I wonder what
the sentences of the "less vicious" participants amounted to.
Personally, I think every one of those convicted should be put to death. I
also think that the Judge, as well as anyone else who cooperated in
arranging this plea bargain, should be stood in front of a wall and shot, or
better yet, hung from a lamppost with a sign reading "I am a traitor to all
humanity." I'd be glad to do the dirty work.
Message: 73775
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Question?
Subject: Who's Douglas Buedel
Date: 03/15/91 Time: 18:16:18
Well, speak up, man. (He *is* a $tatus user.)
Message: 73776
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Trumbo
Date: 03/15/91 Time: 19:08:46
... He had lost track of everything except the tapping. ...
He was never quite positive that he was not dreaming when
awake and tapping when asleep. He had lost time so utterly
that he had no idea how long the tapping had been going on.
Maybe only weeks maybe a month perhaps even a year. ... He
didn't think of the past and he didn't consider the future.
He only lay and tapped his message over and over again to
people on the outside who didn't understand. ...
Message: 73777
Author: Ed Sheridan
Category: Joke
Subject: oke
Date: 03/15/91 Time: 20:57:39
There were two gay Irishmen named patrick Fitshenry and Henry Fitspatrick.*
Message: 73778
Author: Alpo Poet
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Last?
Date: 03/15/91 Time: 21:22:43
Oke? *
Message: 73779
Author: Alpo Poet
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann / traffic
Date: 03/15/91 Time: 21:24:30
And I have seen SO many people parked in the left-turn lane, looking at the
green left-pointing arrow, while the driver behind is leaning on his horn.
What are these people WAITING for?
Message: 73780
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Answer!
Subject: Beck/Douglas Buedel
Date: 03/15/91 Time: 21:56:15
Is one of the ORIGINAL 'Super Blue $tatus' users.....
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 73781
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Sorry, (Sniff)
Subject: Sandi/race
Date: 03/16/91 Time: 05:21:11
Aw shucks! And I had old Nellie all curried out and even put a little ground
dynamite in her oats. Oh well.
Message: 73782
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jeff/hostage story
Date: 03/16/91 Time: 05:24:36
I missed that item, but your post caused me to wonder. Isn't it the Shiite
extremists who are trying to overthrow Saddam Hussein?
Sort of makes one wonder which is the lesser of two evils, doesn't it?
Message: 73783
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jeff on "justice"
Date: 03/16/91 Time: 05:29:08
Yet another thing on which we agree fully! (Almost scary, huh?)
I read that article and bristled! I could almost feel the hair stand up on
the back of my neck, as I pondered on the total injustice of the so-called
justice system. Since the culprits in this case were all black, I wonder how
much the NAACP and/or the Americal Civil Liberties Union had to do with this
miscarriage. Another victory for the lawyers, without whom we would
probably all be better off.
Message: 73784
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Melissa on lakes
Date: 03/16/91 Time: 09:29:43
Where abouts? Was it along the creek - down in the draw? -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73785
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Pauley on smoking
Date: 03/16/91 Time: 09:33:10
Don't get your 'militant non-smoker' hopes up dearie - I may start back at
anytime. Did not plan to quit forever! (smile) I LOVE to smoke!
-=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73786
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jeff on article
Date: 03/16/91 Time: 09:40:38
In stories like this, it makes you wonder if the judge had all his marbles.
Or the lawyer that plea bargined. Perhaps there should be testing for
sanity before these people get to become judges and lawyers.
-=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73787
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Alpo #73779
Date: 03/16/91 Time: 09:42:11
Re: "what are they waiting for"? - ----- Christmas! -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73788
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Pauley/last
Date: 03/16/91 Time: 09:44:08
Oh good gawd!!! What's all this agreeing?? Gads man! Too much agreeing will
give you indigestion and constipation. -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73789
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Trumbo
Date: 03/16/91 Time: 12:31:00
*Somewhere it is being prepared. Somewhere deep in the
heart of Germany the shell is being made. Some German girl
is polishing it right now polishing it and cleaning it and
fitting the charge into it. It glistens in the factory
light and it has a number and the number is mine. I have a
date with that shell. We shall meet soon.
...
Nearer nearer. Some top-heavy canvas-covered German truck
is plunging toward France right now. In it are shells and
among the shells the one with my number. It's coming toward
the west through the Rhine valley I always wanted to see it
through the Black Forest I always wanted to see it through
the deep deep night coming toward France the shell I shall
meet. It's coming nearer and nearer nothing can stop it not
even the hand of god for I have a time set and it has a time
set and we shall meet when the time comes.
...
Hidden beneath some gentle rolling hill that is like a
woman's breast on the solid flesh of the land hidden under
the hill in some unknown ammunition dump is my shell. It is
ready. Hurry boy hurry doughboy don't be late finish
whatever you have to do you haven't much time left.
...
It will come with a rush and a roar and a shudder. It
Message: 73790
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Trumbo
Date: 03/16/91 Time: 12:34:05
will come howling and laughing and shrieking and moaning.
It will come so fast you can't help yourself you will
stretch out your arms to embrace it. You will feel it
before it comes and you will tense yourself for acceptance
and the earth which is your eternal bed will tremble at the
moment of your union.*
...
Message: 73791
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: News Today
Subject: Guns, etc.
Date: 03/16/91 Time: 17:07:14
I glanced at the Republic article on the statistics regarding causes of
death among teen-age boys when it came out. I generally agree with $Jeff
Beck's reservations (73757,73758) about the nature of such data and its
true implications. I did see one thing in the article, however, which
seemed to indicate a willingness to confront unpleasant truths. It was
frankly stated that the greatest cause of death among young black men was
other young black men. Ignorance and hysteria are behind the dubious
propositions that guns can be removed from the hands of Americans wholesale
and that to do so would bring safety and harmony to the streets. One who
really cares to improve the situation should be concerned over why people
are being killed, rather than just how.
See You Later,
Dean H.
Message: 73792
Author: Alpo Poet
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Thought for the day
Date: 03/16/91 Time: 18:36:18
"A tautology is a tautology" is a tautology.
Message: 73793
Author: $ Steve MacGregor
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Last
Date: 03/16/91 Time: 21:04:05
But then, *all* tautologies are tautologies!
We all live in a ....,,,,________nnhn____ yellow subroutine
Message: 73794
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Politics
Subject: Paul/Shiites
Date: 03/16/91 Time: 23:22:13
Yes, the Shiites are one faction. The Kurds are another prominent faction.
I have no information about Kurdish political philosophy, but it is almost
certainly more moderate that that of the particular Shiite faction active in
Iraq, since they are an offshoot of an Iranian Shiite fundamentalist
element. Of course, not all Shiites are fundamentalist, anti-American
fanatics, but unfortunately they seem to get all the press. I guess the
sight of people quietly worshipping God in their own way just doesn't
attract sponsors.
Personally, I think we ought to clean house down in the middle east. But I
don't think anyone who isn't specifically interested in that should be
forced to fight. Actually, since I feel there are more direct methods of
dealing with foreign governments who see fit to terrorize us, there would be
little need for an attacking army. But since we live in a Bizarro world
where pseudo-people have pseudo-morals, rather than in a real world where
people won't tolerate injustice and are willing to take steps to crush it
wherever it appears, I have little hope of seeing that come to pass.
Getting metaphysical for a moment, one sometimes gets a feeling for what
animals in a zoo must feel like. Not the kind with cages, but the kind with
a "realistic environment" for specific animals. The humans who oversee the
zoo, who have no real concept of how an animal perceives his environment,
imagine that their awkward synthetic contructs make them animal feel at
home, but to the animal, it seems like a very poor imitation indeed. As the
bard said, life is a tale told by an idiot.
Message: 73795
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Alpo/73792
Date: 03/16/91 Time: 23:24:02
Hahahahahaha! Cute.
Message: 73796
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Politics
Subject: crime and causality
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 03:43:24
"One who really cares to improve the situation should be concerned over why
people are being killed, rather than just how."
The problem starts when people stop holding individuals accountable for
their own actions and start blaming anything except the individual. Some
people think poverty causes crime. Therefore, they propose a redistribution
of wealth. They might not call it that, but when the government takes a
portion of your earnings against your will and gives it to somebody else
(usually an inefficient bureaucracy which spends a sizable fraction on
overhead) that's what it amounts to.
Some people think drugs and alcohol cause crime. Therefore, they propose
to make those substances illegal. In order to enforce these bans, you,
Dean Hathaway, and others like you, are the ones to pay, again, in the form
of taxation. This too is a redistribution of wealth, though it seldom is
thought of as such.
The list goes on and on, and only stops when people are held culpable for
their own misbehavior. Nor is the end result of this philosophy of mea non
culpa strictly economical. The primary and most pernicious result is not
your lost earnings, but the amplifying and perpetuating effect it has on
crime. Hold people responsible for their actions, and more of them act
responsibly. Make it clear that they can blame a variety of factors, with
the approval of society, and more act irresponsibly.
Message: 73797
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: War!
Subject: Annie/smoking
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 05:46:20
Then why did you quit in the first place? Some wise doctor scare the
daylights out of you? Too bad it didn't stick, whatever it was.
Smoke, smoke, smoke that cigarette.
Puff, puff, puff, and when you smoke yourself to death,
Tell Saint Peter at the golden gate
That you hate to make him wait,
But you've just got to have another cigarette!
How totally DUMB!
Message: 73798
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Beau Dog
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 07:11:21
Continuing our discussion from last monday evening...(others should feel
free to jump in, as that is the only reason I move the discussion from the
post office to the public board)...
...That is to say, there is a difference between interpreting formulae in
the sense of assigning symbols to concrete observables, and interpreting
formulae in the sense of *explaining* them. This is the difference, tenuous
as it sometimes is, between ontology and description. As far as I am
concerned, the ontological interpretation of the formulae is metaphysical,
not scientific. As for assigning symbols to non-observables, I do not at
present feel that science has been advanced by this practice, despite the
reoccurence of serendipitous episodes where science *has* been advanced by
this practice. That is to say, our power to quantitatively describe what we
observe, which, in the case of general laws, also allows prediction, is not
affected one whit by the various ontologies assigned to the quantitative
formulae. I also feel that if as pure an empirical approach as is possible
had been adopted from the beginning of all scientific endeavor, we would not
only be farther along in our ability to describe and hence predict what we
observe, but would not be plagued by the inconsistencies and paradoxes which
are the result of attempting to interpret nature in terms of our ontologies.
Message: 73799
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: same subject
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 07:51:55
Look at any scientific theory. The only thing of value in it are the
formulae which allow us to quantitatively describe and hence predict (by
extrapolation) what we *actually observe*. Newton's laws of mechanics don't
describe forces any more than Einstein's laws of mechanics describe warped
space-time. Forces, warped space-time, gravity, it's all just another way
of saying that two observable objects interact in such and such a manner. It
galls me to no end to hear a simple exchange of momentum described as force
acting across a distance or a curve in the space-time manifold. We don't
have any evidence for either. All we know in physics is what we have seen,
and all we see in so-called gravity interactions is a certain exchange of
momentum between objects. We don't see forces, and we don't see curved
space-time. The only refinements in physical theories are those which allow
us to quantitatively describe what we observe with greater accuracy than
previously possible. The only things which survive from theory to theory,
though they do change by refinement, are the quantitatively descriptive
formulae. The ontologies are entirely superfluous, and indeed, it is
irritating to see scientists hopping from one to the other and back again.
First it's particles, then it's waves, then it's particles again, then it's
waves again. First force acts at a distance, then it isn't force but
geometry. First it's a vacuum, then it's a luminiferous ether, then it's a
vacuum again, then its an electromagnetic ether, then it's a vacuum again,
now it's a quantum field, teeming with particles: mark my words, mark my
words, the ether will be resurrected before a hundred years have passed, oh
yes, it will.
Message: 73800
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: last on this subject
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 08:14:51
And for what? All because one or another ontology is ostensibly more
sensible, or more aesthetically pleasing -- to scientists of that
generation.
Message: 73801
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Pauley on smoking
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 09:06:20
I'm dumb?? Tell me this - what seemingly sane, intelligent person is so
anti-smoking, he has put up a ungodly ugly, tasteless, commercial looking
'no smoking' sigh on his front door in a otherwise charming, cozy house??
Do people usually come up to your door (sales people or friends) with a
cigarette dangling from their mouths or a big fat foul stogie? A pipe or
Cheroot? If so, would it not be easier to just say "no smoking please"
without the billboard? Arn't your friends 'your friends' whether they smoke
or not?? If they are your friends, they wouldn't smoke in your house would
they? Is a friend that doesn't smoke more valuable to you than one that
does? How about rudeness? What if I posted a sign on my front door .."No
Clowns allowed"! Would you think me your friend? Would you feel welcome
without your clown costume? If you want to know the truth - I don't
particularly like clowns - never have even as a child. I personally think
they are a mental health problem to small children! Now what did I do with
that sign ....?
-=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73802
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Clowns Vs Smoking
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 10:37:04
Let's see...Clowns make 'Laughter' as a by product.... This is
healthy! This makes 'clowns' good for society.
Smoking.... Hmmm, kills 50,000 none smokers a year with second hand
smoke....not to mention the number of smokers it kills. EVERY smoker that
smokes contributes to this fact! I would see 'Smokers' as being bad for
society...no matter how polite some of them are.
Paul, come over and hang one of them 'No Smoking' signs on my
house... QUICK!
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif- (-:} grin
Message: 73803
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff/last
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 12:22:34
Do you REALLY believe all those statistis? Smoker or not, I don't!
BTW - I smoke and smile a lot - a whole lot!
You see "smokers as being bad for society" .... how about gun owners? They
have killed a few people over the years huh? Being a tad over zealous ain't
youse? -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73804
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jeff 1 of 7
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 12:23:23
In answer to you posts # 7179 through #7181 to Dean ....
JB> "The freedom of a government to act without accountability to those it
governs is a tyranny in the eyes of the people"!
Me> I don't profess to be an expert on the Libertarian doctrine, but what
I have read and heard, I never got the opinion that they believed in 'a
government that did not have to account to it's people'! They believe in
'less' government control, not more. I feel that our government is not
accounting to us and are becoming a tyranny of sorts in not doing so. I
also think that the IRS IS a TYRANT without a shadow of a doubt!!!
JB> "Should I be free to shoot fireworks off in a residential neighborhood
but only be accountable if I burn someone's house down"?
Me> Yes! Why not? If you do such a thing you should be prepared to be
accountable from burning houses down to maiming someone with a powerful
firecracker that you have provided him. Personally, I'd like to see
fireworks come back to the residential neighborhoods. For 30 years of my
life from a little kid on up I had them and so did my neighbors and I
NEVER heard of anyone getting hurt - even with the dangerous fireworks and
NEVER, NEVER heard of anyone's house burning down! You know what simple
thing we did? Everyone got their hoses out and had them handy just in
case! Parents were involved and watched their kids. (cont.)
Message: 73805
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jef 2 of 7
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 12:24:12
(Cont.) We didn't have the worry about dangerous illegal fireworks because
we could buy safe tested one's at any street corner. (safe within reason
of course - anything of this sort can become misused and dangerous) We
also could go to the Coliseums and ball parks and pay if we wished. But we
had choices anyway. I never did understand why they took that freedom of
fireworks away from us?!!
When you talk about driving down a street speeding and only being
accountable if you run someone over is ludicrous. We must have some ground
rules and the government should have a hand in many things - safety,
education in general, but to fully butt their nose in all our business is
not what government is supposed to be all about. Of course we need speed
laws, but we do not need seat belt laws! This in my opinion, is government
over stepping it's boundaries. See my point?
Speaking of 'shooting your high powered rifle off in your backyard'
etc.... that brings up a question ... if you can't shoot it off in your
backyard, where can you shoot it? The desert? Naw, the environmentalists
will get you! Can you even protect yourself against a criminal with it?
Naw! If you hurt or kill him, he or his family can and will probably sue
you for everything you've got. So what good is a Constitutional gun right
when the government not only doesn't give us many rights concerning guns,
but they are constantly trying to take that right away from us. (Cont.)
Message: 73806
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jeff 3 0f 7
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 12:24:58
(Cont.)
JB> "Should a company be free to wire a house or building in any manner
they please, and only be accountable if their substandard workmanship or
materials results in a fire"?
Me> The government in this case should make the safety rules - not only to
protect people from scoundrels - but to also give guidelines to the
builders. BUT, it has gone too far right now with gov. butting in where
they are not needed or wanted! This I am an expert in because my husband
deals with these people ALL the time and it's crazy to say the least!!
Instead of a nice neat little book of rules and regulations for safety and
guidelines, there's reams! The laws are changing almost daily and the
people that are trying to enforce them, don't even, can't even keep up
with the latest ones and the bottom line is C.Y.A.! Better know as
'covering your A$$'! So nothing gets done within a reasonable amount of
time because so many of them are afraid of making a mistake and losing
their seniority. The reason for the rules to begin with was safety and
protection for the home buyers - now that is far from the case - their
main goal is money for the coffers. So now, instead of a few inspectors
checking that the builder is obeying a few simple rules, it's a mess of
inept bureaucracy with dirty lucre as it's soul and safety is far from
it's mind. Also, do you have any idea how much these rules and regulations
have raised inflation - for example, the cost of housing? (Cont.)
Message: 73807
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jeff 4 of 7
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 12:25:52
(Cont.)
JB> "Businessmen are no more intrinsically trustworthy and socially
responsible than politicians. Given the opportunity, they will both wear
the mask of social commitment, while screwing you as soon as your back is
turned"!
Me> Everyone of those above words are true, no doubt about it. But if the
gov. left us alone, we would weed out the bad businesses through a very
important tool ... it's called "BUYER BEWARE!" In other words, being more
responsible for what we buy ourselves - not depend on gov. to protect us!
If we go to buy a house or land, we should look into the details closely
and not depend of someone else to do it for us. We can also get title
insurance. I cannot understand why people don't use this latter, fairly
inexpensive tool. It has proven valuable in our dealings more than once.
What has happened? A hundred idiots go out and buy property sight unseen
and find out later it's swamp land and go crying to the gov. to do
something about stuff like this. They do and the rest of us pay through
the nose for the hundred idiots that should have looked into their
purchase closer. (Cont.)
Message: 73808
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jeff 5 of 7
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 12:26:48
(Cont.)
JB> "Should people have the right to legally write, publish, distribute,
and read child pornography. It isn't fraud or coercion, but frankly I
don't want to live in a society which permits it and I fail to understand
why you(we) do?"
Me> I think most normal people feel the same way Jeff. I think that is one
of the ugliest things in our society today - just about the sickest too.
But I don't think we should impose our values through the law. If we did
in this case, then where do we draw the line?
JB> But perhaps we should not have laws against driving while intoxicated"
Me> Perhaps we shouldn't! Sound idiotic? Let me elaborate a bit. We have
met this couple of late that are Americans, but world travelers and I am
getting an education on a lot of the rest of the world on such things. For
example, in Italy, Mexico and many parts of Europe a 'stop' sign doesn't
mean 'stop' like our stop signs mean it! To them, it is idiotic to come to
a full stop out in the middle of nowhere and not a car within sight. In
the city a rolling stop is allowable. In other words, a stop sign in those
places is like our yellow light - caution! BUT!!! If you go through a stop
sign and cause an accident when you should have stopped or showed caution,
they literally throw the book at you!! There is no mandatory insurance and
your butt is buttermilk. The people know it and they do not have as many
accidents as we do with all our laws and rules! This also could apply to
driving while drinking here! (Cont.)
Message: 73809
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jeff 6 of 7
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 12:27:37
(Cont.)
This guy was telling me that in Mexico city he knew a fellow that sped
through one of those stop signs without caution and hit a little kid and
killed him. (the guy was not drunk) They did not send him to jail, but
made him totally responsible for 20 years for the kid's family - that
their needs came before his own family's - he was ostracized among his
friends also for not being responsible to begin with. The only other
choices he had was a prison sentence for life or to run away! In Mexico
they do not have many and cannot afford lawyers to get them off free from
something they should be responsible for. It should be fairly simple to
do the same thing with drunk drivers here. Why Not?? A driver gets into a
accident - a police officer gives him a test and he proves drunk, he goes
to court a couple weeks later and is sentenced accordingly!! No lawyer
would be of any use trying to get him out of his responsibility - the test
proved he was drunk! The law says it's illegal! There would be no
insurance company to fool with saying yea or nay to the settlement! The
judge sets the sentence and it should be harsh. Lets assume the guys won't
except the harsh sentence such as responsibility for the family and he
runs away. OK - let him. His life is ruined and so is his family's if he
does. He is a fugitive on the run from then on and we should pursue these
types with a vengeance. Now we coddle such people in the courts and give
them a chance to be proven innocent. Why? It was already proven they were
guilty weren't they? I don't see they this shouldn't at least be tried.
Message: 73810
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jeff last
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 12:28:29
(Cont.)
We as a society need to start thinking as individual's again and stop
letting our gov. interfere all the time. One major thing we lose sight of,
our world existed not too long ago without all these rules and laws and
the government's nose stuck where it doesn't belong and we got along
PERFECTLY alright and had a lot more peace of mind! I could not even come
close to a number of what has changed and not for the better in the last
30 years. We have a tendency to think that just because technology has
grown gigantic that we are improving, becoming more civilized et al. Not
so in many cases. One of the ground rules for a good civilization is
'getting along' with your neighbor'! We are so far from that it isn't
funny. We let laws get passed daily with our approval that stymies our
neighbors and friends - saying to ourselves that it is best all the way
around! I feel that if we worked together, not with government ruling us,
we would get things done that would help everyone. It used to be that way
I promise you. Don't go saying there was less people then either - I came
from a city that had 4-5 million people in it in 1940 and somehow we all
got along pretty well, obeyed the laws and rules because we knew the
consequences if we didn't and we worked together. I don't proclaim the
Libertarian party will provide us all of this, but I feel that if we just
incorporated some of it into what we've got - improved upon what we've got
would be a giant stop in the right direction. AND NOT be afraid to try
something new! -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73811
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Answer!
Subject: Ann/Smokers
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 13:41:03
YES, I believe those statistics. I know more people killed with
smoking then I do with guns. All smokers add to the death and disease rate
caused by that product. VERY, VERY, VERY few people with guns add to the
death rate you speak of.
When I shoot, I also smile a lot - a whole lot! But unlike smokers,
my sport does not affect the health or infringe on anyones right to breath
clean air. I know there are polite smokers, but even they screw up the air
for others and don't even realize how miserable it makes some people feel.
Going to a restaurant for me is a problem sometimes even when I sit in the
NON-Smoking section. The fact there is someone sitting on the other side of
the room in a smoking section can turn my enjoyable meal into misery for me
Even at home, in my OWN house I can get sick from a neighbor smoking if I
have my windows open to get some fresh air. Getting that fresh air should
be my right one would think.
Cigarette smoke is the residue of your pleasure. It permeates the
air and putrefies my hair and clothes, not to mention my lungs. This takes
place without my consent. I have a pleasure also; I like a beer now and
again. The residue from my pleasure is urine. Would you be annoyed if I
stood on a chair and pissed on your head and clothes without your consent?
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 73812
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: Ann's 7 posts
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 13:49:45
Great posts Ann.... I would like to see firecrackers again too.
But about your "AND NOT be afraid to try something new!" Communism was NEW
for Russians once...and look what it got them. It is easier to jump into
something new, then it is to get out of it.
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 73813
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff/last
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 15:09:33
And so was democracy new at one time. I'm glad they tried it arn't you?
-=*) ANN (*=-
P.S. I read your smoking post and will go to the word processor to answer. I
feel it is way too important to answer off the top of my head.
Message: 73814
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff on smoking
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 15:26:05
I'm sorry but I find you quite fanatical regarding smoke of others - I.E. in
restaurants, your neighbor, your right to fresh air, etc. It is one thing to
not like it, but I think you are being ridiculous about the subject. Your
prerogative if course, but I personally do not see how you survive at all on
this planet??!! Every vehicle on this earth pollutes the air you breath. The
spray cans, the plastic wrap, the fireplaces, the airplanes, the farts! Why
you are so adament on cigarette smoke is beyond me. It is no worse than a
diesel bus or smoldering fireplace, yet I never hear you complain about
anything else but smoking. There are 36 million or more Americans that smoke
in the country. Maybe not the majority, but certainly a formidable number.
Do you purpose they quit because it bother's you?? Do you purpose that NO
restaurant have a smoking area? Do you purpose your neighbor give it up for
your sake? There are a million things we could do to help our air quality
and smoking is just a small one - not even a major one!!
Do you just limit your friendships to just 'non-smoker's'? If so, I find
that very sad. Maybe smoking is a bad as they say it is, but to me, it's
worse ostracizing everyone from my life that smokes because I don't like it!
You are beyond being a 'militant non smoker'! There is no way to excape it
Cliff. Why not try to live with it a tad better? I happen to know you
believe in freedom - why not let the smokers have theirs. -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73815
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 18:11:21
Smoking serves no useful purpose other then to inflate one's lungs
with some stupid drug. Smokers care less if it makes the people about them
sick, or even in some cases, leads to their death, as long as they get their
drugs, their HIGH.
I don't get sick in restaurants from cars, hair spray, or paint
spray. I do get sick from SMOKERS...very sick. I am not asking the world to
stop everything that pollutes, that would be silly. But almost everything
you mentioned Ann, serves a useful purpose. TRANSPORTATION can hardly be
looked at in the same light as drug use for self satisfaction.
Heck, I don't even want to outlaw cigarettes, I just wish the users
of such products would do so only in their homes or in rooms set aside for
such a purpose. I believe if a person wants to kill him or her self, let
them do it.
Yes, I am a militant anti-smoker and I am proud of it! You even
said I believed in 'Freedom', but I see you only think that means freedom
for you to smoke and not the freedom for me to express my dislike for
smoking or the freedom for me to breath non-tobacco stenched air. As a
smoker, you have no idea as to how it STINKS!
Message: 73816
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann on friends
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 18:30:02
Yea Annie, I got friends that smoke. I am concerned about them too?
Is there something wrong with that? They are hooked on a drug... I
understand that too. But most of my friends don't smoke when I am around
them. When they are over to see me, I provide a nice place outside for them
to smoke if they feel they need to. You name a GT at my house where I did
not have a place for smokers? Ash tray... Seats.... Light.... I have an
ash tray at my home in my new patio (grin) ALL the time for smokers.
Now...all things being equal Annie, when I am over at a smokers
place, do they in turn provide a place for Non-Smokers? Nope! You are on
your soap box yelling for me to be fair to smokers... where is their
fairness to me? Huh? Annie? Huh?
Now you may understand why non-smokers get militant
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 73817
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: Ann, democracy
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 18:41:34
Nothing new about that Ann. From 'demos' the people, and
'kratein' to rule. One of the OLDEST forms, majority rule. So Ann, tell me
when was it that democracy became the new idea? Hint, the United States
did NOT invent it.......
Still darn good posts though, Annie!
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 73818
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Trumbo
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 19:16:24
...
He kept on tapping.
He kept on now for another reason aside from the simple
desire to speak which had started him out. He kept on
tapping because he didn't dare stop he didn't dare think. He
didn't have the courage to ask himself even so simple a
question as how long will it be before the nurse understands
what I am doing? Because he knew it might be months it
might be years it might be all the rest of his life. All
the rest of his life to be tapping when the merest whisper
-- one word with the syllables barely formed by two lips --
when that was all he needed to tell what he wanted.
There were times when he knew he was stark raving crazy
only from the outside he realized he must seem as he always
had seemed. Anyone looking down at him would have no way of
suspecting that beneath the mask and the mucus there lay
insanity as naked and cruel and desperate as insanity could
ever be. He understood insanity he knew all about it now.
He understood the overpowering impulse to kill without
having a reason for killing the desire to beat against
living skulls until they were pulp the passion to strangle
the lust for murder that was more beautiful more satisfying
more imperative than any lust he had known before. But he
couldn't do it he couldn't kill he couldn't do anything but tap.
Message: 73819
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Trumbo
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 19:27:19
Inside his skull there was a normal man with arms and legs
and everything that goes with them. It was he Joe Bonham
trapped in the darkness of his own skull rushing frantically
from ear-hole to ear-hole wherever in the skull there might
be an opening. Like a wild animal he was trying to hammer
his way out to escape into the world beyond. He was trapped
in his own brain tangled in the tissues and brainmatter
kicking and gouging and screaming to get out. And the only
person in the world who could help him had no idea of what
he was doing.
He got to thinking this nurse is keeping me prisoner. She
is keeping me more securely a prisoner than any jailer than
any chain than any stone wall they could ever build around
me. He got to thinking of all the prisoners he had ever
read about or heard about all the little guys from the
beginning of the doing of things who had been caught and
imprisoned and who had died without ever becoming free
again. He thought of the slaves little guys like himself
who had been captured in war who had spent the rest of their
lives chained like animals to oars rowing some big guy's
ship through the Mediterranean sea. He thought of them down
there in the deeps of the ship never knowing where they were
going never smelling the outer air never feeling anything
except the oar in their hands and the shackles on their legs
Message: 73820
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Trumbo
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 19:32:33
and the whip that lashed their backs when they grew tired.
He thought of them all the shepherds and farmers and clerks
and little shopkeepers who had suddenly been taken away from
their way of living who had been cast into the ships and had
stayed there away from their homes and their families and
their native parts until finally they collapsed at their
oars and died and were thrown out into the sea for the first
time to touch fresh air and clean water. He thought of them
and he thought they were luckier than I am they could move
they could see each other they were more nearly living than
I and they were not imprisoned as securely.
...
Message: 73821
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Answer!
Subject: Ann
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 20:05:45
I lived in Walker, which is up the road from Lynx lake about 7 miles. There
was a creek that ran down behind our property.
Message: 73822
Author: $ Michael James
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann's 7
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 20:54:53
Those were the most coherent messages I've ever seen from her. Stopping
(or pausing) smoking must be good for the brain as well.
Message: 73823
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Last
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 22:46:53
Yea, I was thinking the same thing. Ann's 7 posts really did
impress me almost as much as when Sandy came home from visiting Ann last
week, I was able to get near her without gagging. Generaly I have to keep
my distance from my sweet Sandy after an Ann visit. I sure hope Ann keeps
up her will power to kick to habbit.
Ann has a nice house, has nice tastes in clothing, GREAT cook, and
is quite the good l-OO-king gal, fantastic Artist, fun Trivia player, and
can post some pretty darn good posts. With all that tallent, why smoke?
Yes, on Apollo, we strive for PERFECTION
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 73827
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 23:40:20
I refuse to respond to any of this. My messages were posted on the $tatus
SIG, not the PUBlic board, and non-status users have no access to them.
They will not merely be confused, but will be greatly misinformed, since as
usual you have either misattributed arguments to me which I have never made,
or misunderstood the arguments I have advanced.
You have not reproduced the text of my messages. You have taken a coherent
set of thoughts and selected fractured pieces to be used as punctuation in
your confused maunderings. I might just as well be a wooden dummy sitting
on the lap of a ventriloquist.
Anticipating your reaction, I specifically forbid you to reproduce the
entire text. I am the one who decides upon which subboards I will post my
messages, not you.
Message: 73828
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: In search of
Subject: Rod (1/5)
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 23:43:24
>> ...if planet earth were to shatter into small bits and pieces would
>> this constitute an important event in the universe...?
A good question, and before answering it I need to set a frame of reference.
And before doing that, I have to step back -- a long, long way back -- and
take a quick look at human thought over the last few centuries.
Prior to the Renaissance -- very roughly -- we didn't have an awful lot of
clear thinking about science and the universe. There were lots of theories,
but nobody bothered to verify them. The Greeks were particularly sloppy in
this respect. Wasn't it Aristotle who thought that if an object weighed a
hundred times as much as some other object, it would fall a hundred times as
fast? It seems incredible today that nobody bothered to actually test this
until Galileo took a walk up the Tower of Pisa, and dropped a cannonball and
a bit of lead shot over the side. They fell all the way down without
hitting the wall because the tower leans (as everybody knows), and he proved
that Aristotle was full of you-know-what. Then of course Francis Bacon laid
a lot of the groundwork for the application of "the scientific method" in
general, with its insistence on experimental verification, and Isaac Newton
formulated his Laws of Motion, which stood for well over two centuries.
The drawback of Newton's Laws was that they were based on an absolute frame
of reference. Einstein upset all that by insisting that some phenomena
could not be measured "absolutely", but only relative to the observer.
Message: 73829
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: In search of
Subject: Rod (2/5)
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 23:44:25
It took a while for Einstein's ideas to really sink in, because they're
difficult to grasp and seem to contradict common sense. But what we call
"common sense" is only our understanding of the universe based on our
everyday experience. It's not every day that we see things rocketing along
at substantial fractions of light speed, trains shortening and clocks
slowing down and so forth. So most of us have insufficient data to truly
comprehend the notion of "relativity". I think the ordinary man is slow to
apply the concept of relativistic thinking to other fields where it's
useful. Much of our thought is still rooted in the absolutes of Newton.
We can apply relativism to the field of morality, for example, as has
already been done. If I steal $100 from you, is that "good" or "bad"? The
absolutist will immediately answer "Bad! Stealing is wrong!" My answer
would be the same for *practical* purposes; yet I would get to it by a
different route. I would first have to ask the question "good or bad from
*whose* point of view?" From your point of view, you've lost $100, so
that's bad. But from my point of view, I've *gained* $100, so that's good!
So is it a wash? On the surface everything seems to be even; but it isn't
really, because yours and mine are not the *only* points of view to be
considered. There is also the point of view of an outside observer, or of
"the community as a whole". A randomly selected outside observer neither
gains nor loses financially from my act of theft, but he is not unaffected
by it.
Message: 73830
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: In search of
Subject: Rod (3/5)
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 23:45:29
It reinforces in his mind the idea that "theft happens", and then he gets
worried and has to waste a lot of energy taking precautions *against* theft.
From the point of view of the community as a whole, a high incidence of
theft means that it has to devote lots of resources to protecting against
theft, recovering and compensating for stolen property and so forth. The
community operates less efficiently as a result. In the balance, everybody
loses. So from this global point of view we can judge stealing as "bad".
It approximates a "moral absolute", yet it is derived logically.
Is it "good" or "bad" when one Apollo user spews a string of insults at
another, as we've seen recently? Again, it's pleasantly cathartic, and
therefore "good", for the insulter; "bad" for the insultee, whose feelings
get hurt. All square so far. But if the insultees feel so bad that they go
away, the user community loses as a result, including the insulters who then
have nobody left to insult. Black mark. A further point is that the
"goodness" or "badness" of the action must be judged from the point of view
of what the insulter was actually trying to achieve. If he or she simply
wanted to discharge anger, or get the satisfaction of making the opponent
walk away in a huff (an exercise of power motivation), then that goal was
reached. But if what was wanted was agreement, or at least understanding
and validation, the action failed to achieve its object because it was
tackled the wrong way. So the "goodness" or "badness" of an action must be
judged -- as everything must be judged -- from a particular point of view,
or with reference to a particular set of criteria. There are no absolutes.
Message: 73831
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: In search of
Subject: Rod (4/5)
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 23:46:21
I hope I'll be forgiven for using your question as an excuse to jack off on
this topic of relativism. But to come back to the question: the fact is
that it's incomplete, and therefore meaningless, by itself unless we do
factor in the other words you used: "given the size of the universe and the
length of eternity", and use that to support an assumption that we're
looking at it from the point of view of the universe as a whole. Would it
be important if the earth blew up? From a cosmic point of view, no! From
the point of view of an observer in some other universe, no! From the point
of view of an Earthling, definitely yes!
I have to add, though, that we can and do use the power of thought to place
ourselves mentally at a viewpoint other than our own. If we couldn't do
that, it would be very difficult to even communicate with other people. So
some Altairian could be standing on his planet and seeing this little flash
in the sky. All it is is a momentary increase of light intensity in a
particular sector: a little piece of data, quite insignificant by itself.
Is it "important"? "Important" from what point of view? Cosmically? No,
it happens all the time. Does it add to his knowledge of the universe?
Hardly. Could be a meteor; could be a smudge on his eyeglasses.
Message: 73832
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: In search of
Subject: Rod (5/5)
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 23:47:24
But if he chooses to think about it, to feel something about it, and say to
himself "Boy, there's some planet out there just blew to smithereens!
That's a pretty rotten thing to happen, to be just standing there and have
the planet fall to pieces underneath you" -- well then, I guess it *would*
be important to him. And likewise, if we choose to think from a cosmic
point of view, then when we see the Earth crumbling under us and flames
shooting out of great chasms in the ground, perhaps we can say to ourselves
"Here we are, just another small piece of matter serving the eternal laws of
physics, recreating the cycle of life and death, merging once again with the
omnipotent All." There is a certain majesty and grandeur to being a part of
it. Perhaps, at a stretch, we could even feel good about it.
Is there such a thing as positive and negative energy? It all sounds rather
New Age to me. I asked my crystal about it, and my crystal just sat there
winking at me in the light of the desk lamp as if it knew something I
didn't, and wasn't going to tell me. So I asked it another question: "What
the hell did I buy Crystal d'Arques for, anyway?" I then proceeded to
answer my own question by filling it up with more wine, and drinking it.
All of this hooks into a very large train of thought that I don't have time
to go into here; I've been short on spare time of late. What you've just
read was written last weekend, and I didn't have time to post it -- for
which I apologize. I'll try to get back to this topic later. And if Rod
isn't reading this, then hopefully somebody else is.
Message: 73833
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: On the Lighter Side
Subject: Sex scandal (1/5)
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 23:48:29
Actually the subject title is a thumping lie. There is nothing whatsoever
about sex in this post. I just put that there because if I said it was
about heat and thermodynamics, people might not bother to read it. Anyway,
for those of you who didn't bother to read all of Jeff Beck's thirteen-part
post on that subject at the beginning of the week, here it is again. Well,
sort of.
Except that the presentation is a little different here, more geared toward
the popular viewpoint if you like. Michael Flanders and Donald Swann were a
British comedy duo who flourished in the early 60s, writing and performing
their own material and songs. Flanders was a large bearded man in a
wheelchair, with a very impressive voice. (He also once narrated a history
of the RAF for a BBC documentary.) Swann, by contrast, was a small
bespectacled fellow rather like a bank clerk, who played the piano.
Readers might wish to note that Sir Edward Boyle was Minister of something-
or-other (Education, I think) in Macmillan's Conservative Government.
Anyway, he was a politician. The Beatles reference of course alludes to a
popular song of the time. The following transcript was taken from the album
"At the Drop of Another Hat."
Message: 73834
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: On the Lighter Side
Subject: continued (2/5)
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 23:49:29
One of the great problems of the world today is undoubtedly this problem of
not being able to talk to scientists -- because we don't understand science.
They can't talk to us because they don't understand anything else, poor
dears. This problem -- I think it was C. P. Snow first raised it -- that's
Sir Charles Snow, in private life -- in his book, "Science and Government".
Mind you, I haven't read it. I'm waiting for the play to come. He says,
quite rightly, it's no good going up to a scientist and saying to him as you
would to anybody else, you know, good morning, how are you, lend me a quid
and so on. He'll just glare at you, or -- or make a rude *retort*, or
something. You have to speak to him in language that he'll understand. I
mean, you go up to him, you say something like, er, "Ah, H2SO4, Professor!
Don't -- er, don't synthesize anything I wouldn't synthesize! Oh -- and the
reciprocal of Pi to your good wife!" Now this he will understand. Snow
says that nobody can consider themselves educated who doesn't know at least
the basic language of science. Things like Sir Edward Boyle's Law, for
example: the greater the external pressure, the greater the volume of hot
air. Or the Second Law of Thermodynamics. This is very important. I was
somewhat shocked the other day to discover that my partner not only doesn't
know the Second Law, he doesn't even know the First Law of Thermodynamics!
Going back to first principles, very briefly, "Thermodynamics" of course is
derived from two Greek words, "Thermos", meaning "hot" -- if you don't drop
it -- and "Dynamics", meaning "dynamic", "work"; and "thermodynamics" is
simply the science of heat and work, and the relationships between the two,
as laid down in the Laws of Thermodynamics...
Message: 73835
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: On the Lighter Side
Subject: continued (3/5)
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 23:50:19
...which may be expressed in the following simple terms. After me, Donald.
[Chanting rhythmically]
The FIRST... LAW... of THERmo... dyNAMics...
HEAT is WORK and WORK is HEAT
HEAT is WORK and WORK is HEAT
Very good! [Snapping fingers to the rhythm]
The SECond... LAW... of THERmo... dyNAMics...
HEAT... CANnot of itSELF... PASS from
ONE... BOdy to a HOTter... BOdy...
HEAT... CANnot of itSELF... PASS from
ONE... BOdy to a HOTter... BOdy...
[Singing]
Heat won't pass from a cooler to a hotter.
Heat won't pass from a cooler to a hotter.
You can try it if you like, but you'd far better notter!
You can try it if you like, but you'd far better notter!
'cause the cold in the cooler will get hotter as a ruler
'cause the cold in the cooler will get hotter as a ruler
'cause the hotter body's heat will pass to the cooler.
'cause the hotter body's heat will pass to the cooler.
[In unison]
Heat is work and work is heat and work is heat and heat is work.
Message: 73836
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: On the Lighter Side
Subject: continued (4/5)
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 23:51:06
HEAT will PASS by... conDUCtion and...
HEAT will PASS by... conDUCtion and...
HEAT will PASS by... conVECtion and...
HEAT will PASS by... conVECtion and...
HEAT will PASS by RAdiAtion...
Wah, wah, wah, wah...
And THAT'S a PHYsical LAW!
Da-da-da-da-da...
[Modulating to a minor key]
Heat is work, and work's a curse,
And all the heat in the universe
is gonna COOL down!...
because it can't increase:
then there'll be no more work,
and there'll be perfect peace!
Really?
Yeah, that's *entropy*, man!
Message: 73837
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: On the Lighter Side
Subject: concluded (5/5)
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 23:51:45
And all because of the Second Law of Thermodynamics, which lays down that
[Chorus]
You can't pass heat from a cooler to a hotter,
Whoo-hoooo,
You can try it if you like, but you'd far better notter,
Whoo-hoooo,
'cause the cold in the cooler will get hotter as a ruler
'cause the hotter body's heat will pass to the cooler.
[Repeat chorus, singing faster and faster]
And that's a physical LAW...
[Breaking off]
Oh, I'm hot!
Hot? That's because you've been *working*!
Ohhh, Beatles nothing!
That's the FIRST and SECond LAW of THERmody... NAMics!
Message: 73838
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Politics
Subject: Jeff's article (1/9)
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 23:52:42
After I read Jeff's comments on the Republic article, the first thing I did
was naturally to go looking for it myself. Surprise! I couldn't find it.
Jeff's post was dated the morning of the 14th, and on the assumption that he
might have been writing belatedly about an article from Wednesday's paper, I
checked that also, and a day or two before that besides. No article in my
editions. Very curious. Is some editor playing games with who sees what?
Reading between the lines of Jeff's comments, it's simple but instructive to
see how facts and figures are carefully selected to promote the conclusion
that the writer is trying to get across. The study includes boys from 15 to
19, and Jeff asks "what about 13- and 14-year-olds"? I'm sure they were
excluded because the figure for the younger age group did not support the
writer's thesis. Younger boys are statistically less likely to be going
around shooting one another than older boys. By using terms such as
"teenage", the article conjures up an emotional picture of youth and
vulnerability that in readers' minds equates to the word "kids". Yet the
13- and 14-year-olds, who were excluded, are closest to being true "kids";
the 18- and 19-year-olds, who were included, are in fact legally adults.
I note also that deaths by gunshot were compared to "all natural causes
combined". Teenage years are normally a time of rude and vigorous health,
and deaths from natural causes are very low at this time. Had the writer
compared firearms deaths with highway deaths, I'm sure the figures would
have told a very different story, but not the one he wanted us to hear.
Message: 73839
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Politics
Subject: Jeff's article (2/9)
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 23:53:39
Selectivity again rears its head with mention of the black community, where
there is typically more violence. Figures have been chosen to support the
writer's conclusions. I can't say what this talk of "mother-only
environments" means, or what selection was done in other areas, but I feel
fairly sure that nothing relevant was included that might reduce the
intended impact of the writer's message.
What do we learn from this? First of all, life is very much a matter of
people trying to persuade others to their own point of view. Persuading
your boss that you deserve a big raise, for example. Anything you have for
sale is made out to be in excellent condition, ignoring its defects; if you
want to buy something, you point out its flaws to drive the price down. By
careful selection of the facts, statistics can be made to say anything.
Since the subject of Jeff's article was guns, I ought to quote an example to
point out that pro-gun people do exactly the same kind of thing with numbers
that anti-gun people do. This time the point at issue was not pro- versus
anti-gun, but one gun versus another. The writer was comparing the combat
effectiveness of the new .40 Smith and Wesson cartridge against the
venerable but hard-hitting .45 auto. He preferred the .45; and maybe he's
right, or maybe he's wrong for complex reasons I won't go into here. My own
opinion is that it depends on the individual shooter's ability at handling
each cartridge and gun; but I don't intend to bore the majority of readers
with this argument. It's his use of the figures that is interesting.
Message: 73840
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Politics
Subject: Jeff's article (3/9)
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 23:54:37
In the article he cited figures for different brands of ammo in both
calibers, quoting bullet weights, muzzle velocities, and muzzle energies.
These varied somewhat by brand, but within limited ranges. Now, the average
energy figures for the .40 S&W were about 15 percent *more* than those for
the .45, as one could see from the tables; and this didn't support the
writer's preference. So he then pointed out that these paper energy figures
don't tell the whole story as far as "stopping power" is concerned. As far
as that goes, he was no doubt right. He then went on to question whether
"energy", which is proportional to the square of the velocity, is the right
thing to compare, and whether we ought to consider momentum instead, which
is proportional to the straight velocity. But then he also said we ought to
"include a factor for the size of the hole produced. Jeff Cooper's old
short form calculation is extremely helpful... [and] includes a factor for
the cross-sectional area of the bullet." The writer then pulled a couple of
figures out of a hat which "proved" his conclusion -- that the .45 really is
more "powerful" than the .40.
Unfortunately in doing so, he lost my confidence completely. First of all,
I have no idea what "Jeff Cooper's old short form calculation" is, and while
I can easily prove that the *ratio* of his two numbers is correct, I still
do not know how he got them. Somewhere he divided by a factor of about
1240, and I don't know why. In *comparing* the final figures, this doesn't
matter. But my nasty mind is instinctively suspicious of anybody who tells
me something without telling me the reason why, even if it *seems* harmless.
Message: 73841
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Politics
Subject: Jeff's article (4/9)
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 23:55:33
Secondly, I would have to question whether it is valid to "include a factor
for the size of the hole produced" when we have already made an adjustment
by switching from the comparison of energy to the comparison of momentum.
Could he in reality be making the same allowance twice over?
But lastly, I am extremely suspicious about why the writer switched so
suddenly from comparing actual figures that can be seen in the tables to
simply presenting us with ratios. Earlier on, he tells us that "the .40
[has] about 88 percent of the .45's momentum", instead of quoting the actual
figures. A little trial and error with my Radio Shack calculator tells me
what it is that he's hiding with these ratios. He is no longer comparing
the *average* figures for the .40 ammo with the *average* figures for the
.45. Instead, he has obviously compared the *slowest* .40 ammo with the
*fastest* .45. Selectivity indeed!
But then, this will go clean over the heads of 90 percent of his readers,
who probably don't even know how to compute energy from bullet weight and
muzzle velocity.
All this reminds me of an amusing piece I read a while ago, explaining the
true meaning of the language used in research papers. For example, the
phrase "Typical results are given" really means "My best results are given".
If anybody hasn't seen this list, I'll be glad to post it some time. (And
what *that* means is "when I can find the blasted thing".)
Message: 73842
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Politics
Subject: Jeff's article (5/9)
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 23:56:34
Returning to the original Republic article, it is possible to create effects
in the reader's mind by the appropriate choice of emotive words, even
without distorting the facts. Well, without distorting them very much.
Take "semi-automatic machine guns". This is indeed an oxymoron, since a
"machine gun" is by definition fully automatic. Yet the term isn't devoid
of meaning. Clearly what is referred to is a weapon originally designed to
deliver automatic fire, but built in a modified version to function only
semi-automatically: an Uzi, an AR-15, a MAC-11, an AK-47, etc. Such a
weapon is no more "dangerous" than, say, a Browning BAR semiauto hunting
rifle with a big magazine attached. But the word "machine gun" carries
emotional overtones of terrifying power. Now, I could just as well discuss
an M-16 or an AK-47 in the form used by military forces with their full auto
capability, and refer to them as "automatic rifles"; or speak of a MAC-11 or
an Uzi as "selective-fire weapons". These terms -- especially the latter --
sound far less threatening; yet the weapons they describe have greater
firepower. But of course, that's putting things the wrong way round as far
as the author of that article was concerned. The lesson we learn is to turn
off the emotional right brain and ask the logical left brain what these
terms mean in reality.
So much for manipulation. The second thing we learn is about perception of
risk. The day before Jeff's article, the topic of risk perception received
commonsense discussion in the Wall Street Journal from Paul H. Rubin, former
chief economist of the Consumer Product Safety Commission.
Message: 73843
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Politics
Subject: Jeff's article (6/9)
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 23:57:33
Rubin's jumping-off point was the recent poisoning of Sudafed capsules.
While this aroused a certain amount of mass hysteria, like the Tylenol
poisonings of a few years ago, Rubin pointed out that the actual probability
of being poisoned in this manner is so low that the money spent on
tamperproof packaging, and other financial losses, would have saved more
lives if it had been spent in other ways. The thrust of his article is that
Before mass communications, a person probably would learn of a hazard
only if it harmed someone in the community. Such risks were likely to
be sufficiently probable to be worth worrying about. Today, however,
our intuitions about risk are not a good guide to action. We can learn
of risks with minute probabilities. Indeed, the more unusual the death,
the more newsworthy it becomes, and we may be more likely to learn
about such risks than about more common and more significant risks,
such as death from automobile accidents. The Alar episode teaches that
we may even learn about nonexistent risks.
Because of the publicity given trivial risks, people incorrectly
perceive that the world is becoming riskier. In reality, it is
becoming ever more safe, and life expectancies are continuously rising.
Life expectancy at birth in the U.S. was 59.7 years in 1930; by 1987 it
had risen to 75 years. Moreover, death rates from accidents of all
sorts are falling in the U.S.
Message: 73844
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Politics
Subject: Jeff's article (7/9)
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 23:58:35
The risk of homicide by firearm is much larger than the risk of homicide by
randomly poisoned capsule. Nevertheless, by comparing it with the risk of
"death from natural causes" in teenagers -- actually quite a small risk --
the risk of firearm homicide is made out to be much larger in people's minds
than it really is. By contrast, the negative effects of restrictive
firearms laws on the quality of many people's lives are given no weight
against this risk of teenage death. These negative effects are not limited
only to those people who use firearms for sporting purposes, or even to the
possible consequences of shifting the balance of power between government
and the governed. Some studies showed that crime rates have *dropped* in
areas where firearm ownership by ordinary people was actively encouraged.
Still, I don't intend to argue about firearms ownership here. I'd like to
draw some more general lessons. As I pointed out earlier, when somebody has
a case they want to argue, it is inevitable that they will present the facts
most favorable to their case and ignore those that detract from it. We can
justifiably demand reasonable honesty from people and insist that they not
tell outright lies. Nevertheless, people will have this habit of bending
the facts just a little, and there's not much we can do to change human
nature. What we can do is to make allowances for it, by reading and
listening to everything with a critical eye and ear, by constantly
challenging what is presented to us, and by never failing to ask ourselves
"just where is this person coming from, and what do they have to gain?"
Unfortunately it's difficult to educate John Q. Public to do this.
Message: 73845
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Politics
Subject: Jeff's article (8/9)
Date: 03/17/91 Time: 23:59:39
However, it is even more difficult to challenge a view when it seems to be
the only view ever presented. If we hear a message or a "fact" stated often
enough, however speciously, it tends to become reality in our minds. There
has to be an opportunity for airing alternative views. Now I'm not worried
about an article in a gun magazine that claims the superiority of the .45
over the .40 caliber, because I know that in some future issue another
writer will step forward to claim that on the contrary, the .40, or the nine
millimeter, or something else, is far better. And to most people it doesn't
even matter. Neither am I worried about claims that dinosaurs were wiped
out by a massive meteor strike (as opposed to intervention by UFO aliens),
or the superiority of Macintoshes to IBM PCs, or Fords to Chevrolets,
because there will always be somebody else to argue the opposite point of
view. But I am very worried about who is controlling our media.
The U.S. Constitution was carefully crafted on the assumption that
government has the potential to become an enemy of the people, and it set up
various safeguards to limit the power of government. Within certain
limitations these safeguards have worked fairly well over the centuries. It
also called for a free press as an important part of these safeguards. It
seems to me, though, that the ability of a free press to safeguard the
liberties of the people is predicated upon the idea that newspapers (the
only medium of mass communication in those days) would typically be owned
and directed by small local concerns, and that the random distribution of
their ownership would guarantee a broad spectrum of political views.
Message: 73846
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Politics
Subject: Jeff's article (9/9)
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 00:00:36
Today we see a concentration of ownership of the mass media, which now
include radio and TV, into the hands of a smaller and smaller number of
corporations. The same is true of book publishers, and even bookstores.
Harking back to the gun issue, a couple of years back an interesting book
was published on the use of firearms for self-defense by women. "Armed and
Female", by Paxton Quigley, had a great deal of trouble getting the
necessary publicity because two of the major bookstore chains, Waldenbooks
and B. Dalton, seemed to be doing everything in their power to hide the
existence of the book. When any power bloc, whether governmental or
commercial, controls and restricts the flow of information to the public, we
are in very serious trouble. The issue of course is not limited to
firearms; but it is surely significant that firearms information is a
symptom, because firearms are a symbol and an embodiment of power; and the
issue is one of how much power belongs in the hands of the public.
Cars are another example of power in the hands of individual members of the
public, and it isn't an accident that some people would like to restrict the
public's ability to drive their own cars, or closely constrain the way that
they do it. But I'll say more about that another time.
Knowledge is power, and the withholding of information is a classic tool to
retain power. We do well not only to challenge what the media tell us, but
also to ask what they hide from us. And you can bet it isn't all about
firearms.
Message: 73847
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Vote
Subject: How do you vote?
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 00:09:31
Do you consider it necessary to preserve the Union of Soviet Socialist
Republics as a renewed federation of equal, sovereign republics in which
human rights and freedoms of any nationality will be fully guaranteed?
This is the question presented to Soviet voters -- today, I believe. Sounds
as if it begs for a "yes" vote, doesn't it? If you look closely at the
wording, however, the *real* question underlying it is "should the Soviet
Union be preserved?" -- as opposed to "should its component parts become
autonomous?" Clearly the Soviets are not far behind us in the wording of
questions, because this reminds me very much of the kind of rubbish we get
in our junk mail. "Should homosexual teachers be allowed to come into our
classrooms and corrupt our children's purity?" "Should labor laws be
changed to deprive workers of the right to free collective bargaining?" And
so on, always tying the question to a specific predicate that you may or may
not agree with.
Usually, too, the people asking these questions want you to give them money
as well.
Message: 73848
Author: Robert Andrews
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Gordon Little
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 02:36:46
You might bear in mind that the point of Einstein's relativity is not that
everything is relative. The point of relativity is not what's relative, but
rather, what's the same for everybody. The entire point of the special
theory is that physical laws ARE absolutely the same for two observers in
uniform relative motion. General relativity simply extends this domain of
absoluteness by including relative motions which are not uniform, but
accelerated. So the point is not, it's all relative; the point is what IS
relative and what is NOT.
By analogy, one should not be hasty in dismissing absolutes from the domain
of morality, merely because some things there are relative and some are not,
and our delineation is dynamic, not static. Pragmatism is ultimately
sterile and even fails its own goal, since according to it, anything which
benifits me is practical if I can get away with it: my ideas of what I can
get away with may differ substantially from yours.
Message: 73849
Author: Robert Andrews
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Gordon Little
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 02:40:56
Very amusing. But if you read Jeff Beck's thirteen-parter, you'll know that
heat is NOT work.
Message: 73850
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: thirteen-parter
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 02:57:11
Speaking of which, I accidentally deleted the fifth part. If anyone is
interested in having it re-posted, let me know, otherwise I will allow the
rest to quietly scroll into oblivion.
Message: 73851
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Gordon
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 03:14:42
Nice posts. Your point about 18 and 19 year-olds had escaped me entirely,
when I originally analyzed the article.
Another alarm bell when reading "statisticulations" is the use of averages
which do not explain what kind of averages they are. For the benifit of
others, though I'm sure you know this, G., there are three types: mean,
median, and mode. The mean average is the kind we all know about. The
median average is that figure in a group in which half the values are above
it, and half below it. The mode average is that figure in a group which
occurs most often. These averages are often mixed to suit the conclusions
of the author, without telling you which are which, and quite often, the
type of average applied is not the type which would be most illuminating.
The use of decimal figures in averages should also, generally, be cause for
suspicion, or at least scrutiny. Since averages are usually rough guesses
anyway, by the nature of data collecting process, which inevitably leaves
out things it should not, and includes things it shouldn't, this use of
decimal figures tends to mislead the reader into imagining a greater
accuracy or grasp of the matter than actually exists. Of course, decimal
numbers, which suggest accuracy, are impressive. Another problem with
percentages, particularly in polls, aside from the problem of random
sampling, is the absence of information on how accurate it is. Even a
statement that a "plus or minus margin of error of four percentages points"
is in effect is worthless by itself, since a further figure, the "degree of
significance," tells you how accurately this margin may reflect the range.
Message: 73852
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: cont. from last
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 03:26:05
It is always best to think of percentages, even in polls where random
sampling is properly treated, as a range, rather than a figure attained with
scientific decimal precision. If poll blithely announces that 75 percent of
the American people feel this way or that about something, you have been
told nothing. If there is a margin of error announced, say of 5 percentage
points (and there is a difference between percent and percentage points) you
know a little more. If you are told that the degree of significance is 90
percent, then here's what you know: You know that, of the people who
responded to that poll, there is a 90 percent chance that between 70 and 80
percent of *those who responded* SAID that they believed such and such, and
that there is a 10 percent chance that either less than 70 percent or more
than 80 percent actually SAID that. Of course, you don't know WHO was
chosen to be polled, how many there were, why these people should represent
a nation of 250+ million people, who chose to actually respond, and whether
or not their response matched the way they actually feel.
Message: 73853
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: War!
Subject: Smoking
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 05:34:07
Those statistics that you choose to ignore, Ann, are FACTS, not fantasy. I
have personally been witness to the post mortems of people who have died in
the service, and have seen the difference between the lungs of smokers and
non-smokers, and this was in the 40s, before all the facts were as well
publicized as they are today concerning the killer weed, tobacco. I do not
question the numbers at all, except to think that they may be too
conservative, of those whom smoking has killed, either by direct or indirect
(second-hand) ingestion. Cancer, emphysema, heart problems, and many more
fatal diseases can be attributed in a large part to smoking. Of that there
is absolute proof, and no doubt about it.
My NO SMOKING sign is not aimed at my friends, who either do not smoke
themselves or are aware of my allergic reaction to the stuff and considerate
enough not to smoke in my presence, but is directed to those inconsiderate
clods in the form of sales or "service" personnel who used to come to my
door almost daily with one of the filthy weeds hanging from their lips or in
their hands, thinking that it is some kind of constitutional right to
pollute the air that I have to breathe.
If you choose to take what I have posted for my own protection personally,
that is your problem, not mine. Your pleas in defense of your addiction fall
on deaf ears.
Message: 73854
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Smokers' "freedom"
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 05:53:56
The "freedom" you request for nicotine addicts, Ann, that "Freedom" to
pursue their addiction wherever, whenever and as they please, would directly
affect and deny the freedom of the majority of the people to breathe
relatively clean, unpolluted air. Aerosol cans with a polluting propellant
are fast becoming things of the past. Granted, automibiles pollute, but
steps are being taken to greatly reduce that, and such pollution goes into
the air and is dispersed relatively soon. Tobacco smoke, and the poisonous
residue thereof, however, remains in the air as well as on everything it
touches. Walk into a room or building where smoking is permitted the morning
after a large affair, and the first thing that assails you is the acrid odor
of stale cigarette smoke. Open a bar in the morning, and the smell o smoke
even outweighs the smell of stale beer. That offensive odor permeates the
clothes, the hair, even the body of a smoker, to say nothing of the
furniture, drapes, carpeting, etc. of the home of the addict. There is proof
positive of the hazards of second hand smoke to the non smoker who is forced
to inhale the air polluted by the smoker. The non-smoking children of
smoking parents are 5 times more likely to contract a smoking related
disease than the children of non-smokers. That is a FACT. What about their
rights, or freedoms?
So you want the "freedom" to indulge yourself in your addiction? Regardless
of what that "freedom" does to the rights of others around you? WEll, be my
guest! Inhale all you want of the filthy weed! Just don't abridge my rights
and freedoms by exhaling!
Message: 73855
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff on smoking
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 09:38:40
You say it serves no useful purpose - but that's not true in my case at
least - I love to smoke! So does Whitey. I also do not find the smell of
them offensive as you do whether I smoke or not. My sense of smell is in
full bloom right now and smoke smells great to me. It is a matter of 'to
each his own'! -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73856
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff again
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 09:47:13
I will give you credit as to providing a place for smokers at GT's but will
you tell me how I was to provide you a non-smoking place at my party you
came to when 99% of the people there smoked??? The only place would have
been outside and you would have been alone. The other non smokers .. Dan
Anderson, SAndy and Rose didn't complain or die from the smoke, so they
wouldn't have been outside with you. The computer room was like a smoke
filled bar and I don't blame any non smoker for not going in there. Anyway,
you knew we smoked and I told Sandy before you came to warn you that almost
everyone else did too. If you think I was being rude to you, I am sorry, but
I did have other guests to think about.
When you and Sandy are here alone, we do not smoke close to you nor blow it
in your face, but you cannot ask us to stop smoking while you are here. In
the summer, we can be outside.
One word of advice - why don't you stop worrying about your friends that
smoke - concerned - and just sit back and enjoy them?? Let people be what
they are without condemnation. In other words - relax! -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73857
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff on demo
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 09:48:28
You know, that is a good question. I really don't know when democracy became
the new idea. Clue us in with a tutorial. -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73858
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Melissa
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 09:50:31
Ah yes! Walker - a very beautiful area even if it's quite primitive -
meaning no services - at least back in 1976 or so. We though of building
there one time, but didn't think we would like all the darkness from the
trees all the time. We use to go to a mine there and pick through it.
-=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73859
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Michael
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 09:51:29
Actually, no! I can't think as well without smoking! Another myth smashed!
-=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73860
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff on my assets
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 09:54:25
Gads man, with all those assets, what difference that I smoke. Everyone has
to have a vice and I am so perfect, I only have that one little one! *Heh
If you keep your distance from sweet SAndy after she has visited me, you
need help boy! -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73861
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jeff
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 10:01:11
Well excuse me fellow. I just uploaded them on the main board. What's the
big deal.
Don't go telling me I misunderstood your arguments - I have them right in
front of me right now - they are clear and precice.
You "forbid me to reproduce the entire text" - what entire text? Now you
aren't being coherent. You can't forbid me anything on this board.
Why don't you ask me nicely to put the text where you want it or is that
beyond you? I made a small mistake, not a fatal error! Grow up!
-=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73862
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Pauley on smoking
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 10:06:07
Re: "Your pleas in defense of your addiction fall on deaf ears"!
Does that mean you have a closed mind Pauley? -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73863
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Question?
Subject: Pauley
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 10:10:26
I've got just one question --- how many people smoke that DON'T die from
it??? You have all these facts, how about this one???
Heck, I bet you don't know how many people die a year, period?!
Sorry, I guess this isn't just one question -- but what are the ages of the
people that die from smoking! For one to take a statistic at face value, one
must know all the aspects of it! Am I right? -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73864
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: War!
Subject: Ann/Smoking
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 10:48:04
Well bully for you ! You find you love to smoke. Well I hate it when I have
to breathe the stink of other people's addiction.
Message: 73865
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Answer!
Subject: Ann/dying
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 10:50:37
Edward R. Murrow, Chet Huntley, Nat King Cole, Oscar Levant, John Wayne...
Message: 73866
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Politics
Subject: Jeff/Moving Messages
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 11:09:56
> I refuse to respond to any of this. My messages were posted on
> the $tatus SIG, not the PUBlic board...
This should have been listed under the category "Joke." You seem to feel
there's no problem with making public a conversation you and Beau are having
via the [P]ost Office -- Apollo's only truly private forum, yet chastise Ann
for continuing a conversation you started on a SIG open to all [$]tatus
users and making it available to a wider audience. I might also point out
that figuring out your discussion with Beau was much more difficult that
jumping into the conversation Ann joined.
Are you afraid of the added scrutiny your point of view might undergo?
And while we're at it...
Message: 73867
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Politics
Subject: Jeff/Libertarians
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 11:12:03
> This argument that we must not discriminate at all between acts
> which do not fall into the categories of fraud and coercion, or
> else none of us are safe, is a mad delusion.
I'm not sure I've ever heard any libertarian (I'll use the
lower-case to include Libertarians as well.) claim that acts of fraud and
coercion are the only deeds that should be illegal. Matters of safety have
always also been included.
Also, your argument begins to fall apart when it becomes so clear
you believe all libertarians subscribe to that philosophy's most radical
views. There are many shades of republicanism, socialism and even
democracy. Why do you act as if the most extreme strains of libertarianism
are the only ones?
Message: 73868
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Question?
Subject: Thermodynamic Beatle
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 11:12:45
I don't get the Beatles reference in Gordon's post. Can anyone enlighten
me?
Message: 73869
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Smoking
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 11:27:14
I tell you what - some of you are fanatic militant non smokers - I am a
fanatic militant smoker - you arn't going to change and neither am I, so
lets drop it! -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73870
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bill
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 11:30:38
Thank you very much for clear and precise posts on Libertarianism.
Personally, I've always avoided the extreme ones. They are out there and
that must be what Jeff reads only. I don't know.-=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73871
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Politics
Subject: $Jeff/crime
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 13:06:07
Your message on individual accountability (73796) sounded like something
I would say. It also leads to the point that many, or maybe even most, of
those shooting deaths between young black men can be attributed to drug
prohibition and the gangsterism it fosters.
See You Later,
Dean H.
Message: 73872
Author: Marc Elliott
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: new
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 15:04:18
Hi! Wanna talk?
Message: 73873
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Answer!
Subject: Last
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 17:05:51
No.
Message: 73874
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Trumbo
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 18:20:17
He thought of the slaves deep under the street levels of
Carthage before the Romans came and destroyed the city. He
remembered from some time way back in the past how he had
read of the Carthaginian slaves and what they did and how
they were treated. How the great Carthaginian lords wanting
someone to guard their treasure stores would find a healthy
young man and put out his eyes with sharp sticks so he
wouldn't be able to see where they took him and thus learn
the location of their treasures. Then they would take him
poor blinded young guy down into the passages under the
level of the streets to the door of the treasure house.
There they chained one arm and one leg to the door and one
arm and one leg to the wall so that for anyone to enter the
seal would have to be broken and the seal was the living
breathing body of a man. He thought of the Carthaginian
slaves down in the darkness blinded and chained and he
thought they were lucky guys. They died soon there was no
one there to take care of them to make sure the breath of
life stayed in their bodies as long as possible. They were
in agony but they died soon and even in their agony they
could stand on two legs they could pull against their
chains. They could hear and when someone spoke some great
noble coming down into the treasure house they could hear
the blessed sound of a human voice.
Message: 73875
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Trumbo
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 18:30:27
He thought of the slaves who built the pyramids thousands
of them tens of thousands of them spending their whole lives
to put up a dead monument to a dead king. He thought of the
slaves who fought each other in the Coliseum in Rome for the
entertainment of big guys who sat in the boxes and held
their thumbs up or down to give the slaves life or death.
He thought of the slaves when they disobeyed -- ears lopped
off hands hacked away screaming tongues flexed with cries
for mercy even as they were pulled out by the roots so that
no secrets would be betrayed. Little guys all over the
world shot down stabbed crucified boiled in oil whipped to
death burned at the stake -- all these things were the fate
of slaves the fate of the little guy the fate of men like
himself. Only the slaves could always die but he couldn't
and he was mutilated far beyond any slave who ever lived.
Yet he was one of them he was part of them he too was a
slave. He too had been taken away from his home. He too
had been put into the service of another without his
consent. He too had been sent to a foreign country far from
his native parts. He too had been forced to fight against
other slaves of his own kind in a strange place. He too had
been mutilated and branded forever. He too was at last a
prisoner in the narrowest cell of them all the cell of his
own horrible body awaiting only the relief of death.
Message: 73876
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Drug Talk
Subject: Ann...Sigh
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 20:08:05
I would like to enjoy them.... You don't seem to be getting the
point. Smoke makes me SICK! Makes me feel lousy! It also has been proven
that second hand smoke KILLS people.... 50,000 a year! Second hand smoke
hurts people who don't smoke more than a person who smokes.
Smoke also STINKS, Ruins car interiors (I never buy used cars from
smokers). Yellows the ceilings in homes and just makes every thing reek of
a stench that I simply can't stand.
You say your sense of smell is keen? Smokers have a deadend sense
of smell...they may think it is keen...but science has proven otherwise.
My Uncle Bob never thought it smelled, and it was YEARS after he had quit
before he realized just how bad it did stink.
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 73877
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann Statistic
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 20:31:40
You ask for a 'statistic' Ann... Women use to live a lot longer
then men.... lately however, the gap is fastly closing because more women
have taken up SMOKING.
And yes, smoking does not seem to hurt some that do so. But this
number is very few...and while it does not hurt them, they (the smoker)
shave years off the lives of people around them.
And Ann, I did not expect you to stop smoking at your own house.
Heck, you smoke at my house even if it is out side. The point being is that
you do not do without your drugs, and you were yelling at me for not being
fair to smokers...yet admit that you could not provide the same courtesy for
the non-smokers whom you say are 'Not Fair'. My drug is clean air, and you
deny my rights to it.
No Blood for Oil... Hmmm 100 to 200 Americans lost their lives for
something that is VITAL to the economy of the world.
How about "No Blood for Tobacco".... Conservative 50,000 per year
for nothing but a selfish high that does nothing for the world economy.
Hell, more Americans die by cigarette lit fires every year then the number
of Americans killed in the Iraq war. Last year my brothers baby sitters
family was wiped out by a smoker falling asleep. FACT!
Message: 73878
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: $tatus users only
Subject: SIG name change
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 20:41:56
The DEVil SIG is now the FINal Frontier or known by its users as the
'End of the Universe'.
It will be a SIG where we can bid fond farewell to someone or talk
about things related to death (smoking) ha ha or maybe life. Let's see what
happens!
No more will it be considered an atheist SIG only... Anyone wanting
on, leave me mail.
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 73879
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Vote
Subject: Soon to be new
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 20:54:54
I still can't believe some users refuse to answer a simple poll
question on colors... geesh!
But, I soon have a very important question for you $tatus users.
Bill Burkett (Hang-Person) Master @ Arms is doing a job for Apollo
that I think he should be given some SYSOP powers. The power I have in mind
is for him to be able to ZAP a real bad post or to be able to [E]dit
anyone's post if it has value but contains a 'No-no'. At this time only
Sandy and I have this power, but sometimes we are not here, or we would like
to take a vacation...or whatever. To give this power to Bill Burkett (who I
feel can handle it) I feel should be up to the majority of the users, whom
it might affect.
I will post this question in form of a [V]ote shortly, so give it
some thought. And PLEASE if you have not done so, pick your favorite color
of the ones listed... simple... just do it...fo me... please....
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 73880
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Answer!
Subject: smoking
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 21:23:13
I smoked for a little under (2 months) 10 years. Last year in January of
'90 over the super-bowl weekend...I quit. Cold stone Turkey. I have
only looked back in the sense that I wonder why it took me so long to
muster up my strength and just *stop*.
Anyone who tells you that they like the smell of smoke is telling you
only half the truth. Plain fact is that the "nice" party of smoking lasts
a very short few minutes of each day..then its just habit and sometimes
plain annoying. (Not to mention what it is like for others..)
Nowadays I walk out on places that donot provide smoke-free environments.
Notice the distinction here: SMOKE *FREE* vs NON-SMOKING.
It takes some special ventillation and separate AC units to run a true
SMOKE FREE environment.
All the Stuart Andersons Black Angus places I've been to have been SMOKE
FREE.
Quit now. You'll love the improvement!
Message: 73881
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Bill Burkett
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 22:05:16
There is no problem with my posting a message of any kind on the public
board, so long as it does not violate the SysOp's rules of message content
for messages accessible to minors. Nor did I move a conversation. I
started to continue a face to face conversation in email, then decided it
might be of interest to a larger audience.
Ann, on the other hand, attacked messages which I posted on a SIG
inaccessible to non-status users. Since I have no intention of reproducing
a set of messages on two subboards, I find that annoying. It would not have
been nearly as irritating if she had simply replied to my arguments,but, not
satisfied with that, she insisted on building a straw man which she then
proceeded to destroy.
And no, I'm not afraid of any added scrutiny. It's just that, when
responding to a message which Dean Hathaway posted on the $TAtus SIG, I had
the courtesy to post my response there. I could have responded on the
public board instead, representing his arguments however I pleased without
allowing others the opportunity to see what he actually said. And since it
was part of an ongoing discussion, in order to get the full picture, it
really would have required transplanting close to a dozen posts, in order
for the full thread of conversation to be followed. This was further
exacerbated by the fact that my questions were directed to a knowledgeable
libertarian, but were answered by someone who by her own admission is not a
knowledgeable libertarian, as though she were actually clarifying the
position of libertarians.
Message: 73882
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Question?
Subject: Bill Burkett
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 22:08:07
Why do you reply to messages directed at Dean Hathaway? It is *his* set of
beliefs I wanted clarified, not yours. When I want to know what Joe Blow
thinks most libertarians believe, I'll ask.
Message: 73883
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Dean/drugs&crime
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 22:11:30
I would tend to agree to the extent that easy money is a powerful incentive
to those already predisposed to get it any way they can, and that drug
prohibition seems bankrupt, or worse. It's time to look at some
alternatives.
Message: 73884
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: smoking statistics
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 22:12:55
Complete, exhaustive studies are available from the AMA and the office of
the Surgeon General.
Message: 73885
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: The SYSOP Speaks
Subject: PUBlic/Private/etc.
Date: 03/18/91 Time: 23:00:54
Let's get this strait....
If you reply to messages, you should do it on the same SIG/board
that those you are replying to are on. If not done this way it is
confusing... and to the Non-$tatus member... a one sided argument.
If you wish to move them to another SIG, the parties involved should
ALL agree.
If you are doing something in PRIVATE mail, both parties should
agree before bringing anything PUBlic.
However, once it is on the PUBlic board/s, ANYONE may jump in no
matter whom it may be directed at, after all this is a full participation
board, you all paid your dews! It is noted that if person A askes person B
a question, person C can't answer for person B, but can add to or state how
person C feels about the question. If this is not agreeable to person A,
then it should be taken to PRIVATE mail.
This is how BBS's are run... okay guys?
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 73886
Author: Ben Trumby
Category: Answer!
Subject: Burkett's powers
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 03:00:43
Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water.
Message: 73887
Author: Ben Trumby
Category: Question?
Subject: Sysop
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 03:02:55
George or Hormuz?
Message: 73888
Author: Scott Cubbage
Category: Bulletins
Subject: Hi gang!
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 05:17:06
Wow. Long time no see! Does anybody remember me?
Message: 73889
Author: Scott Cubbage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: the past
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 05:27:15
I would reminisce about the good old days but I can't remember them! No
kidding. I had a motorcycle accident three months ago and I only got out of
the hospital last week. I was in a coma for most of that time and still have
a partial memory loss, especially for a period of a couple of years
including the time I was here. I found some old printouts and was talking
with my doctor who said I should visit Apollo because it might help me
remember things. So please, if anybody remembers me tell me about myself as
they knew me then. Parts of my life are all a blurry haze.
Message: 73890
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 05:31:24
Your statement to Cliff is a non-sequiter. Personal pleasure does not
constitute a "useful purpose". THere is absolutely nothing constructive,
progressive or positive, either to the addict or those in proximity to the
addict, about smoking. Nothing.
Message: 73891
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Answer!
Subject: Annie's question
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 05:37:39
"Does that mean you have a closed mind Pauley?"
When it comes to people so rude and inconsiderate as to blow their filthy
exhaust in my face, you dam right I do! If you want to poison yourself, why
don't you just take a large dose of cyanide or something and get it over
with. At least that way you won't be endangering others. While you are
committing slow suicide with those cancer sticks, you place everyone you
come in contact with in jeopardy. When I'm one of those unfortunates, you
better believe you'll never convince me of anything good ever coming from
your addiction!
Message: 73892
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Answer!
Subject: Annie
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 05:43:03
There are only two facts that need to be known, and those two have been
proven over and over and over again, without question and without one shred
of argument.
1. Smoking kills.
2. Quitting can and does extend the life span of the individual.
Excuse me. A third FACT. Passive (second hand) ingestion of tobacco smoke
also kills. This is not supposition or conjecture. It is TRUTH!
So if it's any consolation, whwen you go down from your addiction, you
probably won'T go down alone. You'll take a few innocents with you. Like
maybe one of your terrific grandchildren who, hopefully, haven't fallen
slave to the same addiction you have.
Message: 73893
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Scott Cubbage
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 05:54:03
Sorry to hear about your accident, Scott. I vaguely remember you from the
past, but unfortunately, my memory is no good enough to recall anything
significant that would be of any help. Anyway, welcome back to the land of
the living, and may your memory and your body return to normal soon. Stick
around. I'm sure that you'll find some help here, or at least have some fun
trying. God bless.
Message: 73894
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliffy #73876
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 07:23:55
Nice weather we're having. Looks like we're in for much needed rain again.
-=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73895
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliffy #73877
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 07:25:53
Nice weather we're having. Looks like we're going to be much needed rain
again. -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73896
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: War!
Subject: Jeff
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 07:34:40
I don't know what your problem is and you do have one, but what the heck do
you think a BBS is for? (Re: your post to Bill ... "Why do you reply to
messges directed at Dean Hathaway?") Why shouldn't he? I thought all the
members had a right to reply to any public post on this board??!! Isn't that
the essence of BBSing Jeff? Did you REALLY think you could go public with
those Libertarian messages and NOT have anyone respond but Dean? That would
certainly be naive on your part if true.
-=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73897
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Pauley #73890
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 07:36:54
Nice weather we're having. Looks like we're going to get more much needed
rain doesn't it? -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73898
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Pauley #73891
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 07:37:53
Nice weather we're having. Looks like we're going to get more much needed
rain doesn't it? -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73899
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Pauley #73892
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 07:38:47
Nice weather we're having. Looks like we're going to get more much needed
rain doesn't it? -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73900
Author: Ed Sharpe
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: memories then & now
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 08:07:37
Hello there all! What a coincidence! I too am an old-time user. I too
suffered a recent tragic accident. But I didn't lose my memory in a
motorcycle crash; I lost my personality in a freak accident.
About eight months ago, my wife and I went to Seaworld. Everything was
fine until she insisted on getting a picture of me kissing Shamu. I was a
little scared, but after talking with the tour guide (and slipping him a few
bucks) he arranged for it. Well, my wife got her Polaroid ready and I
leaned over the edge of the pool. The tour guide had me rub bait all over
my face. He said it would attract the critter. Boy, was he right. Shamu
came up to "kiss" me, and after that, I woke up in the hospital. It appears
that Shamu had a kippered herring or something stuck between the teeth of
his lower jaw, and the thing (the herring, not Shamu) was stiff from rigor
mortis, and the dad-gummed herring pierced the orbit of my right eye and
severed some nerves connecting my thalamus to my frontal lobes; which
effectively gave me a lobotomy!
Well, the disfigurement was secondary. I now wear a prosthetic forehead,
which, in the days of these miracle polymers, can't be distinguished from
the real thing. But my personality was lost forever. I had to rebuild a
new one, painstakingly. In recovery, I got to watch a lot of TV. I had
always been a fan of Charlie's Angels, and it is still around in
syndication. I liked the mysterious guy whose face you never saw, who gave
the Angels their assignments. So I modeled my personality after him. I'm
a little one-dimensional, but then, so was he. I also read a lot of Lil'
Abner cartoons, and this gave me yet another facet.
Message: 73901
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Politics
Subject: Jeff/Moving Msgs
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 08:43:35
Your concern that someone might move only part of a discussion in order to
distort what someone has said is a valid one.
However, I don't believe Ann did this. And, further, I don't believe she
intended to do it. I interpreted your remarks the same way she did and felt
she made valid replies to them. If she did not, then the fault might be
that you are not accurately saying what you want to say; that the message
others are receiving is not the one you wish to send.
Furthermore, in light of Cliff's statements, I stand by my responses of
yesterday.
Message: 73902
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Vote
Subject: Arrrgh!
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 08:44:06
> But, I soon have a very important question for you $tatus
> users. ... Bill Burkett (Hang-Person) Master @ Arms is doing a
> job for Apollo that I think he should be given some SYSOP
> powers. ... I will post this question in form of a [V]ote
> shortly,
A VOTE??!!?? Cliff, you never said anything about a vote! What if I'm
turned down? Oh, the shame! What will this do to my already fragile
psyche?
Why do I suddenly feel like Mikhail Gorbachev?
Message: 73903
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ben Trumby
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 08:44:54
> Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water.
I sure wish I could remember the lyrics to "Mack the Knife."
Message: 73904
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Question?
Subject: Paul & Pleasure
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 08:45:22
> Personal pleasure does not constitute a "useful purpose".
Then, it's okay for you to clown for others, but not for the others to enjoy
your clowning. Is that correct?
Message: 73905
Author: $ Michael James
Category: Answer!
Subject: Cubbage Imposter
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 09:50:58
Nice try, but the REAL Scott Cubbage would have had a hang-glider accident,
NOT a motorcycle accident!
Message: 73906
Author: $ Michael James
Category: In search of
Subject: ED SHARPE
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 09:56:11
ED SHARPE NEVER USED LOWER CASE OR APOSTROPHES !!!! ALSO HE DIDNT HAVE A
PERSONALITY IN THE FIRST PLACE !!!! IM NOT FOOLED !!!
WHOS BEHIND THIS, BRAD JOHNSON ????
Message: 73907
Author: $ Steve MacGregor
Category: In search of
Subject: Ed Sharpe
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 10:28:54
Well, it's not "Jeff Beck"; he never indents his paragraphs. Maybe SysOp
Cliff should make a [V]ote out of it, and we can all have fun.
We all live in a ....,,,,________nnhn____ yellow subroutine
Message: 73908
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Answer!
Subject: Ann
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 12:21:35
Yeah. Maybe this "much needed rain" will wash away all the smoke...
I was curious. You said you were not currently smoking. Why?
Message: 73909
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Answer!
Subject: Dee/last on Ann
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 13:24:48
Dee, Ann said she was not smoking not because of health reasons, but
in all the smoke in her home, she could not find her cigarettes.
Dee, Ann said she was not smoking, but it was not because of health
concerns, but instead it was because with all that thick smoke in her home,
she could not find the cigarettes.
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 73910
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Paul on cyanide
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 13:39:59
Good Grief Paul.... Cyanide is to QUICK. There is no time to drain
the family's wealth going down the bankruptcy trail in paying medical bills.
Who said you can't take it with you. My Uncle Bob took it all with
him, leaving his wife Edith with nothing but bills... And for what?
Something that could have been avoided had he thought of more then just
himself and his high from damn cigarettes!
Let's drop it...people like that just can't see the truth till it is
too late. They have been suckered by the tobacco companies with a pack of
lies.
Besides, let's not fight, less there be hard feelings...
It looks like Rain!
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 73911
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Vote
Subject: Mikhail Gorbachev
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 13:44:40
Errrr, I ment Bill.... If you don't think you want to risk the
[V]ote... Say something now? Otherwise stand your ground.
To give that power to someone, who could use it wisely or poorly,
should have the membership's approval. Don't you agree?
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 73912
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Trumbo
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 17:42:41
God help us he thought god help us all the slaves. For
hundreds and thousands of years we have been tapping we
slaves tapping away from the depths of our prisons. All of
us all of the little guys all the slaves from the beginning
of time tapping tapping tapping --
A man had come into the room a man with heavy footsteps.
The man came over to the bed and threw the covers back and
began to prod his body. It was the doctor. He could
imagine the nurse going for the doctor and saying that thing
up there in the room that thing is always tapping its head.
I get nervous I think it needs something. Come and look at
it come and try to stop its tapping. So the doctor had come
and now he was prodding him. When the prodding was over the
doctor took the tube from his throat and he had a little fit
of strangling like he always had when they took the tube out
to clean it. The doctor put the tube back in its hole and
stood quietly doing nothing.
All during this he kept up his tapping and now that the
doctor was quiet he tapped much harder. It was just
possible that the doctor might understand what he was trying
to do. He felt the vibrations of the doctor's footsteps
moving over toward the dresser then coming back again. He
felt a cold wet thing against the stump of his left arm.
Then he felt a sharp little sting a sharp little pain like a
Message: 73913
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Trumbo
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 17:52:00
needle and he knew the doctor was injecting something into
his arm.
Before he began to feel its effects he knew it was some
kind of dope. They were trying to shut him up. They had
been trying all along they knew perfectly well what he was
doing nobody with any brains could fail to know. And he
knew what they were doing too. They were plotting against
him out there in the darkness. They had tried every way on
earth to make him be still but he had out-fought them he had
kept right on tapping. So now they were doping him. They
were forcing him to be silent. They didn't want to hear
him. They weren't interested in anything but getting him
off their minds. He shook his head frantically to try to
tell them that he didn't want to be doped. Then the needle
was withdrawn and he knew it didn't matter whether he wanted
it or not.
He determined to keep on with his tapping in spite of them
to try to strengthen his will to such a point that even as
the drug overcame him even as he fell completely asleep from
its effects the strength of his will would carry over into
his sleep and he would continue the tapping just as you turn
on a machine and it continues to operate after you have gone
away.
But a fog settled down over his mind a numbness took
Message: 73914
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Trumbo
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 17:55:28
possession of his flesh so that it seemed that each time he
lifted his head from the pillow he was lifting some enormous
weight. The weight grew heavier the tapping grew slower his
flesh became like the flesh of a dead person his mind seemed
to shrink and shrivel as the drowsiness swept over it. In
his last moment of thinking he was saying to himself they've
won again but they can't win forever they can't forever oh
no not forever ...
Message: 73915
Author: $ Chris Neal
Category: Joke
Subject: Iraqi Joke
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 18:28:03
Ad seen in alot of newspapers around the country...
Used Iragi AK-47, In great shape, not fired very much, only dropped once,
$xxx.xx obo call 555-1234.
I thought it was pretty funny!
-Chris
Message: 73916
Author: $ Don Hicks
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Smoking
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 19:25:56
The place I work won't let people who smoke work in the 'clean-rooms'
because they say that smokers contaminate the pure air because these
particles stick to their hair and clothes.
Is this discrimination?
-Don
Message: 73917
Author: Alpo Poet
Category: Answer!
Subject: Last
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 19:48:16
Yes, it is discrimination. But the real question should be, is it a bad
thing to do?
Message: 73918
Author: Alpo Poet
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Thought for the day
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 19:48:44
Hypocricy is the Vasoline of social intercourse.
Message: 73919
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Joke
Subject: shenanigans
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 19:54:40
Dem bones, dem bones, dem, dry bones...
Message: 73920
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Joke
Subject: shillelaghs
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 20:59:14
Dem sticks, dem sticks, dem, dead sticks...
Message: 73921
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: last few?
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 21:58:44
Over my head?
clif-
Message: 73922
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: In search of
Subject: Robert A./relativism
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 22:03:17
If we were to search for fundamental absolutes in the field of human beings,
the closest thing we would find to them would probably be in basic human
responses to simple stimuli. Give a hungry man food, and he'll be pleased.
Kick him, and he'll probably yell and get angry. Even then there's a wide
range of variability caused by learning, environment, temperament,
individual differences and so on. But deriving a code of behavior, ethics
or morality for an entire community is such an incredibly complex business
that it has to be done -- and has in fact been done -- by trial and error;
and that always means finding what works best *relative* to the needs of
that community.
Should a community strongly discourage the practice of violent behavior, for
example? Many people might say so; but if the community is surrounded by
warlike neighbors, it may need to put a premium on people with a fighting
spirit, otherwise it will not survive. Its survival will be bought at the
cost of some internal strife.
If we look at killing, it's fairly clear that excessive killing within a
society will pretty quickly sap that society's energy -- not to mention its
population. So "thou shalt not kill" is a pretty good moral dictum relative
to the needs of a particular community. In war, that dictum is suspended
with respect to members of a second, *enemy* community, because it serves
the needs of the *first* community to defend itself against the second.
Message: 73923
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: In search of
Subject: Relativism (2/4)
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 22:04:17
But if we now look at a supercommunity that subsumes the first two -- let's
say the "war" is between the blue people and the green people in two
provinces of some country -- then from the point of view of the larger
community's good, such strife is a bad idea. So the country's government
will rightly (from its point of view) seek to suppress the war. And true
"morality" is very much a question of taking the broader view.
There are certain things, such as unjustified killing and stealing, and
other things besides, that tend to harm any community in which they occur.
Consequently the avoidance of such behaviors is the closest we can get to a
moral absolute. Other notions of ethics will vary depending on the needs of
a particular community -- on its environment, and sometimes on the way it
has learned to cope in the past. In a community where a particular resource
is very scarce, wastage of that resource may be an "immoral" act, whereas in
another community it might not matter. In a community needing to increase
its population for survival, "morality" demands that as much sexual energy
as possible be channeled toward that goal. In a community that is seriously
overpopulated, "morality" demands something rather different. Sexual
morality must relate to a community's needs; but it's far from a simple
matter, because it involves not only how many children are produced, but
also how they are provided for, and whether sexual practices strengthen or
weaken cohesion among the individual members of the community and subgroups
within it.
Message: 73924
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: In search of
Subject: Relativism (3/4)
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 22:05:14
Sometimes the choice of a particular rule of behavior is unimportant
compared to the consistent practice of the rule. Is it right or wrong for
lawyers to advertise? The answer is "whatever works best", but it's
difficult to determine just what does work best. Twenty years ago opinion
seemed to be that it was wrong for lawyers to advertise. Today, it's OK.
The point here is that either rule works reasonably well, but it wouldn't
work as well if some lawyers were debarred from advertising while others
could use advertising to gain an unfair advantage.
Nevertheless, all these moral and ethical issues are relative to the needs
of some community, and even the broadest views we have are relative only to
the needs of the human race as a whole. Some people call themselves "pro-
life", yet the vast majority of them are only pro-*human* life. Is it right
or wrong to eat beef and pork? Relative to the human community there's
nothing wrong with it. From the point of view of the cow and pig community
there might be plenty wrong with it -- as I'm sure Jeff Beck would be quick
to point out, having done so before. Is it wrong to exterminate insects
because they're a pest? The Jains of India believe it is wrong to destroy
any life in the animal kingdom, yet they are quite a small minority. In our
treatment of animals we humans usually consider mostly our own needs:
whether the animals are useful to us, what our feelings are about them, and
whether we happen to enjoy having them around. And no, I'm not a
vegetarian. My morality too is relative to the community of humans.
Message: 73925
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: In search of
Subject: Relativism (4/4)
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 22:06:20
I'm not sure what to say about the comment that "pragmatism is ultimately
sterile", because it depends what "pragmatism" means. It isn't a dirty word
to me; in fact, it's a very valuable word, because it describes "what works
in practice". And this in my opinion is how most successful communities
have developed codes of behavior. But I do say "communities". It seems
from what you said next that "pragmatism" means "whatever I can get away
with". And if that's what you mean, then yes, "pragmatism" in this sense is
not a morality at all, but nothing more than blind selfishness. I use the
word "blind" deliberately, because this kind of "pragmatism" has tunnel
vision limited to both the here and the now. It ignores anything outside
itself, and takes thought only for the present, never for the future.
I mentioned in my post that we can use the power of thought to place
ourselves mentally at some viewpoint other than our own. And this is in
fact the key to the development of a morality. Being able to see things
from the viewpoint of an individual other than ourselves does at least help
us to understand why he does what he does, and may give us some clue about
how to deal with him for the best. And being able to see things from the
much broader viewpoint of a community as a whole, and from a broader span of
time than just the present, helps us to develop a truer morality.
Message: 73926
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Answer!
Subject: Beatles reference
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 22:10:33
I suspect the reference to the Beatles in the context of work was an
allusion to "A Hard Day's Night":
It's been a hard day's night,
And I've been working like a dog...
though it might be some other song that's slipped my memory. It's a bit
obscure to me as well.
Then there was the famous Beatles concert somewhere in the North of England
(I think) in some crummy hall, where everybody got so hot that sweat was
dripping off the walls and ceiling and the moisture ran into the electrical
wiring and blew all the fuses. End of concert. Work may be heat, but
entropy wins in the end.
Message: 73927
Author: Michael Kielsky
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: I'm baaaack...
Date: 03/19/91 Time: 22:46:24
Just for a visit.
Michael Kielsky
Message: 73928
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Gordon
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 04:48:46
Well, first of all, there is a subtle distinction to be explicated. There is
indeed a relativism to the morality of *general* acts; this relativism
involves the context, the conditions and exigencies of the act.
One should not, however, confuse a general class of acts with specific acts;
in assigning relative morality to the act of killing, we have simply said
that killing is not always bad under all circumstances. But "killing" is a
class of behavior, not a specific act. Your relativism applies only insofar
as it allows us to differentiate between elements relating superficially
within a general class.
Having said this, you appear to transform the question of the morality of
specific acts into the question of who benefits in what manner from specific
acts. Aside from the problem of whether the concept of morality can
withstand this transformation and yet retain any semblance of meaning, I am
puzzled by an apparent inconsistency. After concluding that the morality of
specific acts is relative, you place an importance on the needs of
*community* which is unwarranted within your relativistic framework. You
say, "All moral and ethical issues are relative to the needs of some
community." But this is in conflict with your fundamental tenet; that the
morality of specific acts is relative to the *individuals* involved in those
acts, whether directly or indirectly. Clearly, the individual may benefit
indefinitely long at the expense of the community. For all your talk of
tunnel vision, your pragmatism does not fulfill its promise, but merely
attempts to coerce individuals using quasi-logical arguments.
Message: 73929
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: me
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 04:50:37
I may take a vacation soon. So if I disappear, that's where I've gone.
To Gordon: here are two things I am certain of:
(1) heat is non-work.
(2) entropy is a dubious concept.
The first statement is unambiguous. As for the second, entropy applies only
to closed systems. Ultimately, it requires that the universe be a closed
system; by no means an established fact.
One other interesting point. Heat does not always flow from hot to cold.
It is possible, theoretically, to freeze a kettle of water by exposure to a
flame. However, the probability of this occuring is so small as to be
unworthy of notice.
"Information? Get me the number of Maxwell's demon."
"We are sorry sir; that number is unlisted."
Message: 73930
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Annie/73897
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 06:07:20
Avoiding the issue and running from the truth isn't going to make it go
away Ann. I just wish, for your sake, and because we don't like losing
friends, that you would recognize the jeopardy in which you are placing
yourself (and others). The cost simply isn't worth the risk. Love ya.
Message: 73931
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Answer!
Subject: Bill/pleasure
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 06:15:19
My statement was restrictive to Ann's rebuttal to a statement that Cliff
had made about smoking serving a useful purpose. Ann's response was that her
enjoyment was, in and of itself, a useful purpose, implying thereby that it
mattered little or not at all what effect the smoke was having on others.
Based on this assumption, I stated that her personal pleasure, at the
expense of others, could not be construed as a "useful purpose". My
statement was not intended to be taken out of context and generalized.
Are you attempting to compare a tragically harmful addiction to a
performance that brings joy to literally thousands of children of all ages
daily? (I am speaking here of clowning in general, not just my
performances.)
Message: 73932
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Michael/Ed Sharpe
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 06:17:36
It sounded a little like something Jeff Beck would do. I could sense a
little of his rather unique sense of humor there, too. Jeff gets my vote for
that post. I doubt that anyone was really convinced.
Message: 73933
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 06:20:26
Speaking of rain, we went from Peoria all the way to east Mesa yesterday
afternoon, practically in the blind. Between the rain coming down in
torrents and the semis and pickups without wheel flaps throwing up clouds of
water, it was almost impossible to see more than 50 feet or so ahead of the
car. Talk about thrills! Phooey!
Message: 73934
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Don.smoke
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 06:23:48
I wouldn't call it discrimination. I would call it common sense protection
of valuable equipment against a known destructive force.
I wonder how long it will be before someone comes out with a study on the
comparative life of computer equipment in the presence of smoke filled air
as opposed to clean air.
Message: 73935
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff on Bill
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 08:01:54
He already has sysop powers being the Master at arms, so why vote? And he is
doing a good job! -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73936
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bill #73904
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 08:02:49
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Very funny. -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73937
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: News Today
Subject: Cliff on MLK
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 08:21:51
I guess you know that we aren't going to have the Superbowl because we don't
have a King day?! I was so disgusted when I read that article this morning I
could scream. But to be honest, I STILL am quite confused about this entire
issue - again I ask ... DON'T we ALREADY have a MLK day where the government
workers get a paid day off? All I know is my trash wasn't picked up that day
nor was the post office open and the paper touted it was because of King??!!
But on the other hand, did we not vote against a paid King holiday? Why do I
keep reading in the paper that the people of this state WANT a king holiday,
but then we vote it down??? In the words of the Great Vinnie Barbarino ....
"I'm SOOOO confused?" Maybe you can clue me in - again as to what's going on
here. All I know is at this time for sure ... I am NOT prejudiced yet I do
NOT want a King day - and at this point, paid or not!!! 'Principal' is now a
principal!!!
Another mystery ... why do the black groups say out of one side of their
mouth they don't care if we have a PAID King day or not - just a recognized
day ... and out of the other side, I get the opinion that's EXACTLY wht they
want???!!! Why do most of our politicians seem to be for a King day and most
people seem to be against???
If I'm not mistaken - on King day there was mass celebrations downtown,
right? As I said, the gov. workers had the day off so, what do they want
anyway? Blood? Apologies for being prejudiced when we are not? Beg, plead
and grovel at the feet of the NFL and the black groups? Maybe you have a
clearer picture of what's going on then me. -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73938
Author: $ Michael James
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: last
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 09:25:32
I don't know where you live, but I assume your CITY collects your garbage.
The Post Office is a FEDERAL agency. The M.L.K. Day vote affected the STATE
only. Understand?
I would just as soon eliminate all the holidays and distribute them evenly
throughout the year without ANY politician's name attached to them.
Message: 73939
Author: $ Michael James
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: fake Cubbage/SHARPE
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 09:31:07
"Jeff" wasn't around back then, so it wasn't him. I don't remember if
Cervelli knew Scott, but Nick did.
I wonder whether the Michael Kielsky message is authentic.
Message: 73940
Author: $ Michael James
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Don Hicks
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 09:34:13
How about companies that won't hire fat people for various reasons?
Message: 73941
Author: $ Steve MacGregor
Category: Answer!
Subject: Paul/Discrimination
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 10:14:38
I would say that not letting smokers smoke in the "clean room" is *not*
discrimination, because non-smokers are not allowed to smoke there, either.
We all live in a ....,,,,________nnhn____ yellow subroutine
Message: 73942
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Question?
Subject: Hello...
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 12:20:50
Is there an echo on this board or what?
Message: 73943
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Michael on MLK
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 13:05:55
I live in Glendale and I think they have a MLK day, but I'm not sure. I know
I DID NOT vote on it if they have. This is what's so confusing - I think I
know what's going on and then I'm not sure at all and then I'm half way
sure, etc. etc.
Most people I talk to feel the same way as you do - distribute the holidays
evenly etc. -=*) ANN (*=-
Message: 73944
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann on Bill...
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 13:27:08
Miz know it all, Bill has NO SYSOP poswers at all. He could not
zap a post or edit a post if I were not here to do it for him.
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 73945
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: Ann
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 13:30:48
I don't understand it myself about the MLK day. However, I am no
fan of the NFL and will work to NOT have the Super Bowl here in 1996 as
well. I don't like the way they have tried to bribe Arizonans into
something we may not want.
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 73946
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Vote
Subject: Cliff/Vote
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 14:37:40
> To give that power to someone, who could use it wisely or
> poorly, should have the membership's approval. Don't you
> agree?
As a matter of fact, I do agree. Let the [V]ote begin!
Message: 73947
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Vote
Subject: Ann/My Powers
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 14:38:08
> He already has sysop powers being the Master at arms, so why
> vote?
As Cliff's already pointed out, at present I have no SysOp powers at all.
Any recommendations I make regarding my duties as Master at Arms must go
through him or Sandy for implementation.
Cliff approached me about assuming some SysOp responsibilities so he could
take a few days off from the BBS from time to time. My approach would be
exactly the same as his: No interference with any posts unless they violate
the [R]ules (particularly that regarding profanity here on the [M]ain BBS)
or the law (such as the posting of credit card numbers or long distance
codes or such).
Message: 73948
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Drug Talk
Subject: Pusher Paul
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 14:38:34
> Are you attempting to compare a tragically harmful addiction to
> a performance that brings joy to literally thousands of
> children of all ages daily?
No, Paul. I'm just trying to rattle your cage and get you off Ann's back.
Actually, yes, Paul. It seems to me that daily exposure to clowning, which
you would seem to favor and in which you have a great financial interest,
might lead to a long-term need for such clowning; an addiction, if you will.
A psychological addiction, but an addiction nonetheless.
Admit it, Paul: You're a pusher. And a pusher of the worst sort. Feeding
on young innocents by convincing their parents to invite -- yes, invite --
you into their homes. You KNOW how addictive this can be, yet you continue.
Hoping they'll come back to you next time they need a fix.
The shame of it all!
Message: 73949
Author: Alpo Poet
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Last
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 17:34:02
It looks like Paul and Jeff aren't the only clowns on this board.
Message: 73950
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Trumbo
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 17:59:42
... Tapping ... five six seven years ...
A finger came out of the darkness a finger so enormous
that it shattered against his forehead like the crash of a
pile driver. It echoed inside his brain like thunder in a
cave. The finger began to tap ...
.-- .... .- - -.. .. .. .. .. ..- .-- .- -. -
W H A T D O Y O U W A N T
What do you want?
Message: 73951
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Vote
Subject: New one coming...
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 18:32:21
Get in your favorite color (of those listed) on the poll, as I may
tonight set up the new one to see if Bill 'does' or 'does not' get the
Power... Shudder!
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 73952
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: $tatus users only
Subject: BIO SIG
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 18:34:55
I would like to see a few more users take up the challenge and do
an auto BIOgraphy. Are you just forgetting?
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 73953
Author: $ Don Hicks
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: M. James
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 20:29:19
You've never been in a wafer fab have you?
-Don
Message: 73954
Author: $ Peter Petrisko
Category: Answer!
Subject: DOUGLAS BUEDEL
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 20:56:27
David Burkhart could tell you. So could I for that matter. I won't,
of course.
Message: 73955
Author: $ Peter Petrisko
Category: Answer!
Subject: ED SHARPE
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 21:08:27
Prosthetic foreheads CRANK!
Message: 73956
Author: $ Peter Petrisko
Category: Question?
Subject: SYSOPS
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 21:24:36
Whatever became of David Bailey, "the young sysop"?
Message: 73958
Author: Glen Billings
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Freeways
Date: 03/20/91 Time: 23:42:27
A little confused, first time that I have used this board or this particular
software. Just wanted to clear up the term "FREEWAY". It is exactly what it
says it is a Freeway (no cross traffic). Has nothing to do with no. of
lanes. All entries and exits are made from the far right or ocasionaly far
left lane, and should be able to exit at highway speed. Though Interstates
are for the most part FREEWAY in design not all interstate is FREEWAY by
definition.
Hope that clears things up, or did I just muddy the watters :-)!
Glen Billings
Message: 73959
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jeff/Your 13 msgs.
Date: 03/21/91 Time: 00:45:01
Although I will read your messages off-line, from what I could scan they
looked very interesting. Thanks for taking the time.
Message: 73960
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Freeway discussion
Date: 03/21/91 Time: 00:47:44
Cars are monsters.
Message: 73961
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Answer!
Subject: Gordon (1 of 5)
Date: 03/21/91 Time: 01:17:01
Gordon, the following is a partial reply to your interesting and
informative rambling, posted in answer to the question of planet earth
blowing into bits.
First of all I do not know much of anything about New Age. I do not own a
crystal nor have I been shopping for one.
I do feel, however, that all life in the universe is equal and related. I
also feel that all matter and all non-matter are related. If this is New
Age then I'm for it. At least I would consider the idea a definite step
up the evolutionary ladder.
It seems from my observances that the human animal is in a global rut,
stuck in the mud, so to speak.
If planet earth up and exploded then it may only seem like an important
event in the universe, specifically for the inhabitants. But for how long?
I'd guess only for an instant.
How many universal bodies have exploded since there were universal bodies?
How many will explode throughout eternity? Mind boggling to say the least.
Message: 73962
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: 2 of 5
Date: 03/21/91 Time: 01:17:53
I could say, ten trillion years down the line nobody would care but I'd be
incorrect in the usage of that terminology because when planet earth goes
then our time system is kaput. There goes our year, etc.
How much do you miss the dinosaurs? They were here for millions of our
years. Would they consider it a tragedy?
To those of us who would consider the earth blowing up a tragedy, I ask,
what is even 100 years in eternity? Our bodies shed in due course anyway.
What big difference would it make no matter when it comes?
I was having a philosophical discussion with a girl friend of mine and I
was explaining to her some theories about the nature of life. She blew my
mind when she pointed out her belief that the human animal was special.
What I meant about positive and negative charge is this: It appears in
the world of magnetism that there are at least several different forces at
work in the physical world. For scientific note we call one of them
negative and another positive.
Message: 73963
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: 3 of 5
Date: 03/21/91 Time: 01:18:38
In our selves there are electrical impulses at work. The subject on neg.
and pos. was actually a serious joke on my part. I was thinking of the
concept of heaven and hell when a thought struck me. It was this: If a
person was negative in viewpoint all of the time it could be argued that
his operating energy would be negative (or more likely to be discharged
into the earth than rise upward). The thought struck me as funny, that
those who are negative go to hell when they die, or at least they go
towards the center, into the bowels of the earth, and that is where the
biblical hell exists. That which is positive rises to the heavens. It was
all a joke.
Nothing remains in the same state forever as the form is always changing.
Negative will go to positive and positive to negative countless times. We
are in a constant state of transformation and I consider the human animal a
fairly grotesque form and no longer suitable for intelligent life.
There is nothing I want from this planet or this fleshy body. I wouldn't
want all the gold or all the money or sex (err, maybe sex). This body
reminds me of a temporary holding tank which I consider rather confining.
I desire true freedom, freedom to do what I want in the universe, not to be
trapped like a caged animal for a period of stay. Perhaps I'll work it out
and then again perhaps I won't but try I will.
Message: 73964
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: 4 of 5
Date: 03/21/91 Time: 01:19:28
Our jobs are our jails but the demands placed upon each working class
citizen demands that we have jobs. So we sell ourselves to the highest
bidder and try to make the best deals so that our short but seemingly long
stay will be as pleasant as possible.
Unfortunately there are not enough of us succeeding as evidenced by the
poverty and misery that surrounds. It is a struggle although there is
no absolute law that says it has to be that way.
Before it will change for the better the human animal has to realize a few
more things. We are caught in a web of tradition and have many falsehoods
that are accepted, without question, as fact. They rule our lives and keep
us in fairly dark ages. We all are slaves to something.
More people die each year from the adverse effects of auto emissions than
from first or second hand plant leaf smoke. Those who object to pollution
should immediately unplug their freezers, other cooling devices and stop
buying anything that has plastics involved in their manufacture. Their
automobile(s) should be crushed and they should try to not pass gas.
Message: 73965
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: el last
Date: 03/21/91 Time: 01:20:18
Volcanoes should be capped as they spew some very poisonous fumes which
affect the human animal adversely. Whoever picks on a smoker should
examine their own life more closely.
If the planet should decide to blow into small bits then I'd like to think
that I would say, "Far out dude."
I enjoyed your reply and found it to be of value. I too rambled around,
answering several different topics from other users. Thanks.
Rod
Public Bulletin Board command:J?
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Goodbye, Rod Williams
You were on 45:46
Please hang up now
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