Apollo BBS Archive

Apollo BBS Archive - June 29 - 30, 1991

Mail from Melissa Dee
Date: 06/30/91  Time: 18:49:21

So did it make Mark feel better?  I thought/think it's a pretty name.
[A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
 1:Yeah, I think it made him feel better.  He needs all the friends he can get.
 2:By our collective actions we can make him sick or well.  I thought I'd give 
 3:him a break and show him there were no hard feelings even though he 
 4:previously called me and screamed that he was going to kill me.
 5:
 6:Oh well.

$tatus Club Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 7482
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Last
Date: 06/29/91  Time: 07:02:03

        These doctors were not paid by the government.  There have been lots
of deaths because of marijuana.  The poisons in the smoke are even killing
people who don't smoke the stuff.  
        
        Smoke it, if you got it...  I don't care.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 7483
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Answer!
Subject: Cliff's Drugs
Date: 06/29/91  Time: 09:00:12

So do you approve of my Tenormin ?

Message: 7484
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Question?
Subject: Roger's drug?
Date: 06/29/91  Time: 10:23:20

        Are you sure you spelled it correctly?  I never heard of it?

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 7486
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Answer!
Subject: Tenormin
Date: 06/30/91  Time: 08:31:09

Yes.

It is spelled correctly.

Message: 7487
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Roger/Tenormin
Date: 06/30/91  Time: 17:41:38

You excreet a certain percentage of this drug into the sewer system.  From
there it is cleaned up (about 99%) and then Tucson gets it.  I often
wondered if that is why that city is slower than Phoenix.

Second hand Tenormin has its effects.

Message: 7488
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Drugs/Cliff
Date: 06/30/91  Time: 17:42:54

You must be the only person who has some sort of proof that marijuana kills.
There is no documentation to back up your theory.

X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 4871
Author: $ Paul Carelli
Category: Quickie
Subject: Pot
Date: 06/29/91  Time: 21:46:19

                 
                  God is Perfect
                  Man is not
                  Man made whiskey
                  God made Pot.

   Something I read on the wall of the Men's Room at Charlie's Pub in
Flagstaff.  I thought it was cute enough to share.

Message: 4872
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: last
Date: 06/30/91  Time: 17:45:09


                Rod is Perfect
                God is not
                God made whiskey
                Rod made pot.

        Something I read on the wall of the Rest Room at my house in
Phoenix.

Message: 4873
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: In & Out 
Subject: Poem
Date: 06/30/91  Time: 20:59:51

I'd awaken in dark 
finding a tongue, not mine
probing deep past the corners of my teeth

Frozen I'd lay.....Frozen

I'd see cartoon cells 
of animals dancing
Elephant with bear, against a universe of stars

Frozen I'd lay as my box began to drip

The elephant, dressed complete
with tutu in pink
the bear with tux and tail
were twirling so fast 
my world began to melt
and my sky came tumbling d
                             o
                                 w
                                     n
Frozen I'd lay with red blood burning

White face coming
forward then back 
legs squeezing, mouth screaming
"Daddy, no more tonight"

would get caught in my throat 
by the cock in my throat 
"bite down hard bite down hard bite down hard"
he would goat

Then the laughing would start
as my body got tight
then would shake 
then would hurt
then it all stopped for the night

The light leaking
as he opened my door
left a silhouette of father
saying, again, "Nevermore"

Public Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 76161
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Politics
Subject: Robber Barons
Date: 06/29/91  Time: 03:43:09

  >> The issue is Socialism versus Capitalism.

That's the whole trouble.  Libertarianism just never occurred to them.

Message: 76162
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann/tea
Date: 06/29/91  Time: 03:43:36

Oh, it's perfectly all right to strain tea.  There's a nice little silver
tea strainer with a handle that you rest on top of the teacup and pour the
tea through.

What's "sun tea"?

Message: 76163
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: War!
Subject: 77 years ago
Date: 06/29/91  Time: 03:45:16

I wrote this piece two years ago, to mark the 75th anniversary -- though of
course it didn't appear on Apollo.  Now the anniversary has come around
again, so it's worth posting here.  It's also topical today.  Much is still
going on in that same area of the world; and some ambitions never change.

The facts were from an article by E. C. Farrell in the Toronto Globe & Mail.

                 *         *         *         *         *

Sunday 28th June 1914 was a brilliant sunny day in what is now the
Yugoslavian city of Sarajevo.  77 years ago, Sarajevo was the capital of a
different country: Bosnia.  Bosnia and neighboring Herzegovina -- names that
today have a comic-opera flavor about them -- were originally part of the
Ottoman Empire, but had been annexed by Austria in 1908.  And that sunny
Sunday in 1914, the mayor of Sarajevo was honored by a visit from the heir
to the throne of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Archduke Franz Ferdinand,
and his morganatic wife the Duchess Sophie of Hohenberg.

The dignitaries arrived at the town hall in a convoy of seven vehicles.  In
the first were Sarajevo policemen.  The second carried the city's mayor,
Fehim Effendi Curcic, and his party.  The Archduke and his wife rode in the
third car with Count Franz Harrach and General Oscar Potoriek, the military
governor of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  The remaining four cars carried the
lesser members of the Archduke's and the General's parties.

The Mayor, arriving at the town hall first, was waiting on the steps with
religious and civic dignitaries to ceremonially welcome the royal couple.
He began his speech: "Your Imperial and Royal Highness, our hearts are
transported by your gracious visit..."

At this point he was suddenly interrupted by the Archduke, who knew
something that the mayor did not.

"Mr. Mayor, we come to Sarajevo for a visit and have a bomb thrown at us.
It's scandalous!"

One can easily imagine the expression of the bewildered mayor, who
astoundingly did not realize what had just happened during the procession of
the motorcade.  There were those in Sarajevo whose hearts, contrary to the
mayor's assertion, were not transported by the Archduke's gracious visit.

It was certain citizens of the neighboring country of Serbia in particular
who felt this way.  History may have left an impression of Franz Ferdinand
as the representative of an oppressive empire, but in fact he attracted
Serbian hostility for precisely the opposite reason -- because he promised
to be a relatively enlightened ruler for the times.  The current emperor,
Franz Joseph, was 84 years old, and he ruled over an empire that bumbled
along through improvisation and compromise.

The well-known British historian A. J. P. Taylor observed that it was "a
perpetual puzzle to Franz Joseph that he could not make his empire work
merely by sitting at his desk and signing documents for eight hours a day".

But the heir to the throne, Franz Ferdinand, had decided that things would
change when he began to rule.  He realized that without reform, the empire
would disintegrate.  There would be many ethnic minorities under his rule,
some living in Austria itself, and he saw the need to make major concessions
to these groups.  So it was not for fear of further oppression that Franz
Ferdinand was the target of hostility.  Neither had it anything to do with
the inhabitants of Bosnia, who were better off under the Austro-Hungarian
Empire than they had been under the old Turkish rule.  Rather, the cause was
the territorial ambitions of Serbia, which wanted Bosnia and Herzegovina as
provinces for itself.

Serbian nationalist groups fomented unrest against Austria, and the focus of
much of this activity was the secret terrorist group called the Black Hand.
This was not just a spontaneous popular movement for self-determinism.  The
Serbian government winked at the activities of the Black Hand, whose leader
was actually the chief of Serbian intelligence, Colonel Dragutin
Dimitrijavic (Apis).  Russia supported the Black Hand financially for her
own political reasons, although at that stage she had not declared herself
willing to support Serbia in a war against Austria.

But Apis also knew that concessions made to the Serbian minorities in
Austria would take the steam out of Serbian popular unrest, and thus reduce
the impetus of Serbia's expansionist hopes.  It was chiefly for this reason
that Black Hand policy decreed that Franz Ferdinand would have to go.

So, to carry out this policy, Nedjelko Cabrinovic was standing in the crowd
near the Cumurja Bridge on Appel Quay, the main avenue.  As the Archduke's
car approached, he threw a bomb.  But his aim was poor.  The bomb bounced
off the hood of the Archduke's car and landed in the gutter, where it
exploded just as the fourth car passed.  A few spectators were injured, and
the governor's adjutant, Colonel Erik von Merizzi, sustained a gash on the
hand.  Cabrinovic ran and jumped into the Miljacka River and tried to
swallow poison, but he spilled most of it and was caught by spectators.

The mayor had heard the bomb go off behind, but he thought it was an
artillery salvo fired to greet the Archduke.  He was very red-faced when he
was made to realize what had happened.  But the Archduke, after his protest,
told the mayor to carry on with his speech.  So he did.

After the ceremony, the Archduke decided to cancel a planned visit to the
national museum -- partly no doubt because of fears about security, but also
because he wanted instead to visit the injured Colonel in the hospital.
Some members of his party were nervous.  "Why not stay put until troops were
summoned to clear the streets?" they asked.

But Governor Potoriek was insulted by such suggestions.  "Do you think
Sarajevo is FULL of assassins?" he bridled.

Unfortunately, the answer to the governor's rhetorical question was a
qualified "yes".  Not every member of the crowd was a terrorist, but neither
was Cabrinovic "one lone nut".  Another five assassins had also been poised
for action along the Appel Quay.  Three of them fled when the bomb attack
failed, but two were left: Trifko Grabez and Gavrilo Princip.

Princip, a young student, was the son of a postman, one of nine children in
a peasant family.  In 1912 he had been expelled from school in Sarajevo for
his part in anti-Austrian demonstrations, and he had gone to Belgrade, where
he joined and was trained for action by the Black Hand.  Now he crossed the
road from the river embankment where the crowd was thickest, leaving his
comrade Grabez behind.  It was Princip who would be in the right place at
the right time.

The convoy took off with the mayor and the police chief in the first car.
The Archduke's chauffeur was instructed to follow it.  Just in case of a
possible attack, Count Harrach stood on the left running board of the
Archduke's open car -- the same side as the embankment from which the bomb
had been thrown.  Any attack could reasonably be expected to come from this
side, from the anonymity of the crowd.

The cars slowed at the Latein Bridge.  It seemed that nobody had bothered to
tell the driver of the lead car about the change in itinerary.  The car
containing the mayor and police chief turned right, following the original
route toward the museum.  The Archduke's chauffeur, obeying the order to
follow, started to do the same.

Gov. Potoriek, in the Archduke's car, saw what had happened.  He yelled at
the driver to back up out of the turning and go straight on to the hospital.

So it was that Gavrilo Princip found the Archduke's open car stopping almost
in front of him, hesitating as the chauffeur fumbled with the gears.  In the
back seat on his side of the car -- the right side -- rode Sophie.  On her
left sat Franz Ferdinand, and to his left, riding on the running board, was
Count Harrach -- quite uselessly, for he was on the opposite side from
Princip and could do nothing.  The radical young student leveled a revolver
and fired two shots -- "the shots that rang round the world".  (Not to be
confused, of course, with "the shot heard round the world", which was 139
years earlier and in quite a different place altogether.)

Princip's aim was rough, but none the less lethal for all that.  His first
shot struck the Duchess in the abdomen, and the second hit the Archduke in
the neck.  The chauffeur had found reverse gear and was backing up, and as
the party realized what had happened, the car sped off in the direction of
the governor's residence.

According to Count Harrach, a thin stream of blood spurted from the
Archduke's mouth, alarming his wounded wife, who exclaimed "In heaven's
name, what has happened to you?"  She then slid off the seat and lay on the
floor of the car, and the Archduke, seeing this, cried "Sophol, Sophol,
don't die.  Stay alive for the children."

Harrach seized the Archduke by the collar of his uniform to stop his head
dropping forward, and asked him if he was in pain.  He answered quite
distinctly: "It's nothing, it's nothing."  But then he made a violent
choking sound, which stopped as they reached the governor's residence.
Fifteen minutes after the shooting, both the Archduke and his wife were
dead.

Their bodies were transported to Vienna and lay in state in the Hofburg
Chapel.  They were buried at Artstetten Castle, their home in the Danube
valley, the following Saturday, on 4th July 1914.  The inscription on the
base of the two white marble tombs reads:  "Joined in marriage, united by
the same fate".

Princip, like his comrade Cabrinovic, attempted to take poison immediately
after the shooting, but the capsule had deteriorated with age and the only
result was a severe stomach ache and vomiting.  He was seized by police and
badly roughed up in the course of his arrest.  Other conspirators were
arrested also.

Five of the six terrorists, including Princip, were found guilty of treason
and murder.  But since they were under 20, the death penalty did not apply
and they were given prison terms.  There was conflicting testimony about
Princip's date of birth, but the court gave him the benefit of the doubt and
sentenced him to 20 years' hard labor.  He died of tuberculosis less than
two years later.

Even as the trial opened, only a month after the shootings, Europe was
already in flames.  World War I, triggered by the Archduke's assassination,
left 10 million dead and 20 million wounded.

A monument now stands on the corner where Princip stood.  It was erected
after the war by the newly independent Yugoslavs.

Message: 76171
Author: $ Don Hicks
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Blah,blah,blah(1/50)
Date: 06/29/91  Time: 04:54:01

Well... This is a start.

Message: 76172
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Annie/abuse educatio
Date: 06/29/91  Time: 05:21:05

 There are two sides to every coin, Ann. As I pointed out in a previous
post, one of the main reasons for child abuse is ignorance. Much of it is a
simple cycle. Because an individual was abused as a child, and abuse becomes
the only way she or he ever learns as a rearing tool, that individual then
becomes an abusive parent.
 If our young people, prospective parents all, are taught that there are
viable and much preferred alternatives to abuse, that cycle can be broken.
Since it obviously cannot be broken by an abusive parent, then it must be
dealt with elsewhere, and abuse prevention taught in the schools are the
most obvious way.

Message: 76173
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Gordon on tea
Date: 06/29/91  Time: 08:21:41

What is sun tea? You put about 5 - 7 tea bags in a gallon glass jar, fill it
with water and let it set out in the sun for - 4 to 6 hours - remove the
bags and refrigerate. Drink at will! I hurry it along by using very hot
water when I fill the jar.
 
With the modern convience of a tea bag, it has litterly been YEARS since I
made a pot of tea with the loose stuff. To a regulation size pot, how much
tea should I put in and how long to steep? Where do I get loose tea anyway?
If I wanted to steep just one cup, how much? *>>> ANN O. <<<*

Message: 76174
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Pauley on abuse
Date: 06/29/91  Time: 08:36:25

I just don't think there are enough people from abusive homes that will
probably abuse their children to teach it in schools! The kids already have
a bunch of stuff they don't need and you want to add another?! It isn't the
school's responsibility to teach this sort of thing! I'd make more sense to
me if they taught 'how not to be prejudiced' - which leads to all sorts of
nasty incidents. But even that is only really taught in the home. 
 
I don't fully go along with this excuse that people were abused so
therefore, they will abuse!! It seems to me that if a person were abused,
they'd go just the opposite and spoil their children. I think basically,
these people are cruel and if it isn't their children, it'd be their wives
they'd abuse. Working in bars in the past has opened my eyes to the fact
that some guys are mean and will pick a fight at the drop of the hat because
they just want to hurt someone. No education is going to change that. 
 
                          *>>> ANN O. <<<*

Message: 76175
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: News Today
Subject: Cliff on Brady
Date: 06/29/91  Time: 08:54:19

Well, I see the government has taken the first step is taking our guns away
from us by passing the Brady bill. It won't be long now! 
 
Typical government stuff - if the states don't comply, then they blackmail
us by not letting us have 50% of our money that's coming to us. Just  this
once I'd like to see this state thumb our noses at them and tell them where
to stick their 50%!!!
 
For the life of me I do not see where this bill is going to help one tiny
little thing. The criminals will have the unregistered guns as they do now
and will buy them from other criminals as they do now. It is the average Joe
that wants a gun to protect himself or go target practicing etc. that
suffers for this - threated like a  criminal when he goes to preform his
Constitutional right by buying a gun. It is also another way for the gov. to
check up on us. Bah humbug. *>>> ANN O. <<<*

Message: 76176
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Answer!
Subject: Caller I.D.
Date: 06/29/91  Time: 09:55:47

You know what is funny about the phone company is that I pay *them*
for my access to their equipment, allowing others to call me and
vice versa. Fine. No problem here. What I do resent is having to pay
them extra to *prevent* them from giving out my number to just anyone
who wants it. Purpose is clear; is tired of tele-marketing a$$holes.
So, the first question is, why must I pay to prevent them from allowing
others to invade my privacy?
I pay my mortgage company for my house. They don't send people to walk
through my house unless I beg them too. I pay a fee each year for my
license plates to use the roads around here, the City doesn't give my
private information away either.
So what gives the phone company the right to list my number in the first
place >?<
So I already pay extra to keep my number as private as possible. 
Now I see that Caller I.D. is going to be a whopping $6.00 a month???????
I think someone at the phone CO is greedy.
Yes, I applaud CID. I think the $6.00 estimated rate is $3.00 too high
and that these leprous lipped, candy injesting rectifiers at the phone
company should provide the CID for free to start with.
That's my $ 0.02 worth.

Message: 76177
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: War!
Subject: CID
Date: 06/29/91  Time: 10:06:26

Dean hathaway and a few others I suppose would want us to also think
that I have no rights on my end when and if they attempt filling my
sanctity with a ringing phone call.
Its a modern nuisance and convenience that I put up with only because
I was raised in a world that accepts the minor inconveniences.
The phone is *my* private line. 
I pay for it.
CID gives me the option to screen with whom I wish to converse or not.
Rather than being simply and plainly RUDE by hanging up on telemarketers,
I simply wont answer if I choose not to converse with strangers calling.
I have a right to refuse your calls. I may also want some other calls
to get to me. Those calls I want and appreciate, I will gladly accept and
is part of the reason why I have the phone and pay for it.
CID helps to provide a simple way to remove one of the drawbacks to having
a telephone. Namely, that someone in a remote location has the access to
disturb my peace and perhaps bother me with stupid salestalk or whatever
while I am :In the shower, Talking to my wife, In bed, Watching T.V.,
reading a book, etc etc.
You would certainly object to being harassed on the telephone would you not?
I have a demon dialer program that proves people do resent it.
I think CID just makes the lopsided situation even for both caller and
receiver. It returns some power of choice and action back to the callee.

Message: 76178
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Caller I.D. ideals
Date: 06/29/91  Time: 10:37:35

        It would be nice if:

You the caller had an unpublished number and called someone, that ONLY your
name would appear on line two with the number blocked out.

If boiler room and such soliciting calls would be labled as such in line
two.

Once the system is installed, such things WILL be possible...

Message: 76179
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Robber Barons
Date: 06/29/91  Time: 17:32:42

  In this same period, those who worked on the land -- 
farmers, North amd South, black and white -- were going far 
beyond the scattered tenant protests of the pre-Civil War
years and creating the greatest movement of agrarian 
rebellion the country had ever seen.
  When the Homestead Act was being discussed in Congress in
1860, a Senator from Wisconsin said he supported it:
     ... because its benign operation will postpone for
     centuries, if it will not forever, all serious conflict
     between capital and labor in the older free States,
     withdrawing their surplus population to create in 
     greater abundance the means of subsistence.
The Homestead Act did not have that effect.  It did not 
bring tranquillity to the East by moving Americans to the
West.  It was not a safety valve for discontent, which was 
too great to be contained that way.  As Henry Nash Smith 
says (*Virgin Land*), and as we have seen: "On the contrary,
the three decades following its passage were marked by the
most bitter and widespread labor trouble that had yet been
seen in the United States."
  It also failed to bring peace to the farm country of the
West.  Hamlin Garland, who made so many Americans aware of
the life of the farmer, wrote in the preface to his novel
*Jason Edwards*: "Free land is gone.  The last acre of
available farmland has now passed into private or corporate
hands."  In *Jason Edwards* a Boston mechanic takes his 
family West, drawn by advertising circulars.  But he finds
that all land within 30 miles of a railroad has been taken
up by speculators.  He struggles for five years to pay off a
loan and get title to his farm, and then a storm destroys 
his wheat just before harvest.
  Behind the despair so often registered in the farm country
literature of that day, there must have been visions, from
time to time, of a different way to live.  In another 
Garland novel, *A Spoil of Office*, the heroine speaks at a
farmer's picnic:
       I see a time when the farmer will not need to live in
     a cabin on a lonely farm.  I see the farmers coming 
     together in groups.  I see them with time to read, and
     time to visit with their fellows.  I see them enjoying
     lectures in beautiful halls, erected in every village.
     I see them gather like the Saxons of old upon the green
     at evening to sing and dance.  I see cities rising near
     them with schools, and churches, and concert halls and
     theaters.  I see a day when the farmer will no longer 
     be a drudge and his wife a bond slave, but happy men 
     and women who will go singing to their pleasant tasks 
     upon their fruitful farms.  When the boys and girls 
     not go west nor to the city; when life will be worth
     living.  In that day the moon will be brighter and the
     stars more glad, and pleasure and poetry and love of 
     life come back to the man who tills the soil.

Message: 76182
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Answer!
Subject: Rod #76160
Date: 06/29/91  Time: 17:57:23

  As documented in Whole Earth Review.  It's not exactly a
medicinal application though.  I do have some more serious
evidence to come.

  Speaking of tea ... Anyone know where I can get some 
"Mate" tea?  It's a traditional tea very popular in Argentina.
Boy, could I use a good cigar right now.

                    Apro "Legal Stuff Kills" Poet

Message: 76183
Author: $ Paul Carelli
Category: Answer!
Subject: Paul Savage
Date: 06/29/91  Time: 21:18:38

   I must have misunderstood the sentence, ""Piss Christ" is some sicko
"artist's" conception of freedom of expression."  To me this implies that
you know the artist was purposely creating the piece to exhibit his freedom
of expression, rather than creating something which he felt to be art and
which happened to become the subject of a political issue.

Message: 76184
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: News Today
Subject: Ev's Paper
Date: 06/29/91  Time: 22:09:28

    ANY newspaper that doesn't have Kim Sue Lia Perkes on it's staff HAS to
be an improvement.

Message: 76185
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Paul C./"P---..."
Date: 06/29/91  Time: 22:11:12

   The piece of "art" consists of a crucifix submerged into a container of
urine.

Message: 76186
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Melissa/Serrano
Date: 06/29/91  Time: 22:16:34

"Do not be deceived: God is not mocked.  A man reaps what he sows.  The one
who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap
destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will
reap eternal life."

I'm sure the day will come when God will be able to give Serrano a "personal
critique" of his "art."

Message: 76187
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: News Today
Subject: The Repugnant
Date: 06/29/91  Time: 22:45:33

Kim Sue Lia Perkes is one of the few *good* things about that paper!

Message: 76188
Author: $ Steve MacGregor
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Carter/Caller-ID
Date: 06/29/91  Time: 23:10:20

  From one of your recent messages it looks as though you believe that it
will cost you extra to prevent someone with Caller-ID from seeing your name
and number.
  The way I got it, *he* pays extra to see your name and number, unless you
give the prefix code.  You do not pay extra for being able to give that
code; everyone gets that.

  We all live in a   ....,,,,________nnhn____   yellow subroutine

Message: 76189
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Annie!
Date: 06/30/91  Time: 05:21:10

 Once again you spit in the face of facts! Just as you "don't go along with"
the facts of the hazards of smoking, now you fly in the face of the facts
again, this time the facts of child abuse! Just because you "don't go along"
with the results of thousands of hours of scientific research doesn't mean
that you are right and all the experts are wrong. Just because you don't
think that abused children in the large majority become abusive parents
doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The facts are that it does indeed happen,
and in alarming numbers. Numbers large enough that some drastic measures are
demanded to alleviate the situation.
 You think that everythin should be taught in the home. Right. Abusive
parents are going to teach their children not to be abusive, eh? All they
will teach them is how to continue the vicious cycle,which the kids in turn
will teach their kids, and on, and on, and on, until somebody yells ENOUGH
ALREADY! and does something about it. If there's a better solution than
education, you certainly haven't come up with it, dearie. Try again!

Message: 76190
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Mike Carter
Date: 06/30/91  Time: 05:26:49

 Two things wrong with your caller ID post, Mike.
 For one, you don't get rid of telemarketers any more with an unlisted
number, since they use computerized digital dialing and get you anyway, so
you may as well let them list your number and save $1.50 a month.
 Secondly, if you don't think that the auto license bureau sells your info
to anyone with the loot to pay for it, guess again. You wouldn't believe the
mail I have gotten from Biddulph and Edward Oldsmobile since I bought a used
Olds, anad I didn't buy it from either of them!
 EVERYBODY sells mailing lists anymore! Privacy? What a laugh!

Message: 76191
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Paul Carelli
Date: 06/30/91  Time: 05:31:31

 Yes, Paul, you must have misunderstood. My statement, as I said before, was
an exhibition of MY freedom of expression, the freedom to express my opinion
of that particular abomination and the "mind" that created it.

Message: 76192
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: News Today
Subject: Kim S.L.Perkes
Date: 06/30/91  Time: 05:33:25

 I prefer Andy Capp.

Message: 76193
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Daryl/Revenge
Date: 06/30/91  Time: 08:28:54

God is great, ain't He ? To have the secure knowledge that God will punish
those we deem to be flagrant sinners --- those who offend US. Oh yes, God
will get 'em. 

Message: 76194
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: News Today
Subject: Paul/Capp
Date: 06/30/91  Time: 08:30:34

>I prefer Andy Capp.
because he is your intellectual level ?

Message: 76195
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Pauley #76189
Date: 06/30/91  Time: 09:33:00

Pashaw! Your just talking with no solutions. Education can cover a lot of
ground and if you don't define.....!! I think it would make more sense to
find out WHY the people are abusive to begin with - what makes them this way
- even when they DO NOT come from a abusive family - then to take it to the
'none-of-their-business' schools!! I always felt that schools were there to
teach nothing but the 3 R's - NOT cooking - NOT shop - NOT Physical
Education and most of all, NOT teach how to raise kids!! I cannot understand
you Pauley - knowing that you come from a different era when people had more
responsibility for themselves and families and now you are preaching in
essence - "Let the government handle it"! I remember a time that if you
abused you children you were totally ostracized by society and you'd
certainly think twice about doing it! I knew one guy that committed suicide
because he was caught exposing himself to little kids at the park! If you
did such a thing, your life was ruined no matter where you went - your sins
went with you. That would be the answer in my opinion. Now, we are a nation
of 'turning our heads from the problems and turning to the gov. more and
more to take care of it'! 
BTW - also years ago, if you abused you kids in any way, the state took them
away from you, period! You got them back when you showed you turned over a
new leaf. At least they thought twice about doing it again. Now that's when
the gov. OUGHT to butt in! *>>> ANN O. <<<*

Message: 76196
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Robber Barons
Date: 06/30/91  Time: 16:35:51

  Hamlin Garland dedicated *Jason Edwards*, written in 1891,
to the Farmers Alliance.  It was the Farmers Alliance that 
was the core of the great movement of the 1880s and 1890s
later known as the Populist Movement.
  Between 1860 and 1910, the U.S. army, wiping out the
Indian villages on the Great Plains, paved the way for the
railroads to move in and take the best land.  Then the 
farmers came for what was left.  From 1860 to 1900 the
population of the United States grew from 31 million to 
75 million; now 20 million people lived west of the 
Mississippi, and the number of farms grew from 2 million to
6 million.  With the crowded cities of the East needing 
food, the internal market for food was more than doubled;
82 percent of the farm produce was sold inside the United
States.
  Farming became mechanized--steel plows, mowing machines,
reapers, harvesters, improved cotton gins for pulling the
fibers away from the seed, and, by the turn of the century,
giant combines that cut the grain, threshed it, and put it 
in bags.  In 1830 a bushel of wheat had taken three hours to
produce.  By 1900, it took ten minutes.  Specialization
developed by region: cotton and tobacco in the South, wheat
and corn in the Midwest.
  Land cost money, and machines cost money--so farmers had
to borrow, hoping that the prices of their harvests would
stay high, so they could pay the bank for the loan, the
railroad for transportation, the grain merchant for handling
their grain, the storage elevator for storing it.  But they
found the prices for their produce going down, and the
prices of transportation and loans going up, because the
individual farmer could not control the price of his grain, 
while the monopolist railroad and the monopolist banker 
could charge what they liked.
  William Faulkner, in this novel *The Hamlet*, described
the man on whom southern farmers depended:
       He was the largest landholder ... in one county, and
     Justice of the Peace in the next, and election 
     commissioner in both....  He was a farmer, a usurer, a
     veterinarian....  He owned most of the good land in the
     county and held mortgages on most of the rest.  He
     owned the store and the cotton gin and the combined 
     grist mill and blacksmith shop....
  The farmers who could not pay saw their homes and land
taken away.  They became tenants.  By 1880, 25 percent of 
all farms were rented by tenants, and the number kept 
rising.  Many did not even have money to rent and became 
farm laborers; by 1990 there were 4-1/2 million farm 
laborers in the country.  It was the fate that awaited
every farmer who couldn't pay his debts.
  Could the squeezed and desperate farmer turn to the 
government for help?  Lawrence Goodwyn, in his study of the
Populist movement (*The Democratic Promise*), says that 
after the Civil War both parties now were controlled by
capitalists.  They were divided along North-South lines,
still hung over with the animosities of the Civil War.  This
made it very hard to create a party of reform cutting across
both parties to unite working people South and North--to say
nothing of black and white, foreign-born, and native-born.
  The government played its part in helping the bankers and
hurting the farmers; it kept the amount of money--based on
the gold supply--steady, while the population rose, so there
was less and less money in circulation.  The farmer had to 
pay off his debts in dollars that were harder to get.  The
bankers, getting the loans back, were getting dollars worth
more than when they loaned them out--a kind of interest on 
top of interest.  That is why so much of the talk of 
farmers' movements in those days had to do with putting more
money in circulation--by printing greenbacks (paper money 
for which there was no gold in the treasury) or by making 
silver a basis for issuing money.

Message: 76199
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Comment
Date: 06/30/91  Time: 17:05:15

For a contemporary account of monopolist banking, see 
today's Arizona Republic, p. F6, "Increase in bank mergers
..."

The Associated Press is beginning to have to resort to some
fairly transparent doublespeak in these days of impending
banking welfare bailouts.

Message: 76200
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Kim Sue Lia
Date: 06/30/91  Time: 17:53:53

I met her and she gave me a hug.  She is the best religion editor the
Republic has, to my knowledge, ever had.

Public Bulletin Board command:EC

You chose Chit Chat

Subject:Child abuse

Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
 1:It's easy to abuse a child because they are so small.  I find it hard to 
 2:abuse a weight lifter though.  I always give the child an even break though,
 3:I get down on my knees before I abuse one.
 4:
 5:I also drink about a quart of alcohol beforehand as this also evens out the 
 6:odds.
 7:
 8:Whenever taxes go up or I get a traffic ticket I find that abusing a child 
 9:lets the steam off.  I am always careful to use only rubber hoses and other 
10:items that do not leave outward scars.
11:
12:end

Edit command:A

Message entry aborted

Message: 76201
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Daryl/Serrano
Date: 06/30/91  Time: 20:56:11

And I'm quite sure that Serrano was trying to give God his own personal
critique.  

Message: 76202
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: News Today
Subject: Comics
Date: 06/30/91  Time: 20:57:16

I kinda like Nancy, myself.

Message: 76203
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Religion
Subject: Perkes
Date: 07/01/91  Time: 00:07:07

    Are you kidding?  We are talking about the same editor, aren't we?  You
know, the one that waxed eloquent on the church of satan and American
Atheists?  The one that reviews churches like a food critic rates
resturaunts?  The one who can't stand anyone who is not of the ecumenical/
liberal ilk?
     I have to say in all honesty, I have never ONCE read an article in the
RELIGION section of the Arizona Republic that has made me say, "gee, I'm
glad that I took the time to open up the paper to this section and read it."
(And I give it an opportunity every single Sunday.)  On the other hand, I
see more that turns me off in that section than all other sections of the
newspaper combined.
     If anyone really wishes to spend their time reading an excellent
religious newspaper, try CHRISTIAN NEWS.  Packed with articles from around
the globe, it doesn't pull punches, and it doesn't accept outside
advertising. A year's subscription (it's a weekly paper) costs only $20. If
you are interested, drop me a line.

Message: 76204
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Roger / Judgment
Date: 07/01/91  Time: 00:22:06

    Oh, OK.  I am certainly willing to hear your viewpoint on how God is
pleased by an replica of the crucifixion of God's Only Son, submerged into a
container of human urine.  I am not certain if Serrano is still alive or
dead.  If he turns [or turned, if he is already dead] away from his blatant
rebellion against the Father, then his sins are forgiven.  But if he doesn't
[or didn't]...
 
"To the pure, all things are pure.  But to those who are corrupted and do
not believe, nothing is pure.  In fact, both their minds and consciences are
corrupted.  They claim to know God, but BY THEIR ACTIONS they DENY HIM. 
They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good." [Titus
1:15-16]
 
And as a result of that denial...
 
"No one who DENIES the Son has the Father;" [1 John 2:23a]
 
And without the Father or the Son...
 
"For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and EVERY VIOLATION AND
DISOBEDIENCE RECIEVED ITS JUST PUNISHMENT, HOW CAN WE ESCAPE if we ignore
such a great salvation?" [Hebrews 2:2-3]
 
Without repentance, Serrano won't. No matter how much you complain about it.

Message: 76205
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Roger/Paul/Capp
Date: 07/01/91  Time: 00:22:58

    No, because Andy Capp doesn't make him sick to his stomach.

Message: 76206
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rod on Kim Sue
Date: 07/01/91  Time: 00:25:18

    That settles it...
 
    If ROD thinks she is the best...
 
                Then she MUST be.
 
[sknx sknx sknx]

Message: 76207
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Question?
Subject: last
Date: 07/01/91  Time: 02:22:54

Do open minds scare you?