Apollo BBS Archive - June 28, 1991


Mail from Melissa Dee
Date: 06/28/91  Time: 18:43:22

OH, that's right.  Katrina.  I guess since I haven't seen her, I didn't
register her into my brain.  Rosy looks a lot like Melody did the last time
I saw her.  
Glad your teeth are better.
[A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
 1:Mark Adkins came up with Katrina's name.  I liked the name and thought it 
 2:would make him feel better.
 3:
 4:I am an animal.
 5:                                Rod

$tatus Club Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 7473
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Question?
Subject: BIO SIG
Date: 06/24/91  Time: 09:59:57

        Is anyone else going to get their BIO written and posted?

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

                                                Please... sniff!

Message: 7474
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Kars / Automotive
Subject: Cuda $ Paint!!!!!
Date: 06/28/91  Time: 01:35:43

        Gadds!   I went to the automotive paint store... Just like I did in
the 60's and early 70's when I painted cars.  However, there was a BIG
difference this time.  Back then I could paint a car for about $50.00 in
paint...  Maybe $75.00 for a two tone or stripes.  Well, I got my primer and
reducer,  My base color 'Charger White' and reducer and hardner, My second
color 'Charger Gold' for the stripes that go over the top of the Cuda, and
more hardner.  Then the finish 'Clear-Coat' and hardner....

                        Total..... $375.40

                                THUD, off the stool!

        I paid it, now I am commited....

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

P.S.  I have been real busy working on my Cuda and do NOT have the time to
read all posts... (last few days)  I read some...  where I see my name
mostly.   I hope Cubby Billy is on the job.

Message: 7475
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Kars / Automotive
Subject: Radiators
Date: 06/28/91  Time: 01:50:32

        Poor James Hawley's Van...  Just a huffing and puffing steam....
The over flow bottle full of dark brown.... MUD?  Anyways I pulled the 
thermostat (180 degree) and plunked it into hot water bringing it up past
the 180 to 212 degree point, and that little sucker did not budge.  It would
not open up, so replacement was needed.   Then found the block plug and got
it cleaned out and pumped lots of water though till the dark brown vanished
and it ran clear.  Did the same with the radiator and pulled the overflow
bottle so the mud could be removed.
        
        Replaced plugs and added one gallon of anti-freeze coolant and 3
quarts of distilled water and off we went on a Lock-Smithing job on Union
Hills and 40th street ....  Happy to say, van ran cool, needle (he has a
temp gauge) was right where it oughta be.

        People...take care of your radiators...  Flush them out and replace
your coolant now and then though out your vehicles life!  You SHOULD use
anti-Freeze-Coolent even here in the Arizona desert.  It raises the boiling
point, and it also keeps your water pump lubricated.

        Now, back to the Cuda.....

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 7476
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Rebuttal
Subject: While Cliff's Away
Date: 06/28/91  Time: 08:38:29

> I have been real busy working on my Cuda and do NOT have the
> time to read all posts... (last few days)  I read some... 
> where I see my name mostly.   I hope Cubby Billy is on the job.
 
Huh? 

Message: 7477
Author: $ Michael James
Category: Kars / Automotive
Subject: Radiators
Date: 06/28/91  Time: 10:06:52

I saw some strange stuff in my coolant when I replaced a bunch of hoses, so
I want to do a backflush soon.

Message: 7478
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Answer!
Subject: Peter Petrisko
Date: 06/28/91  Time: 14:35:17

        As to the POT being deadly and as to the existance of data to
support such a claim.  Well, I was reading Sandy's books when she was taking
the Drug classes at GCC.  Also some of the data came from talking to doctors
on the subject.... they are more qualified then you Peter...or Rod.  What I
had posted in the PUBlic board was based on what I REALLY found out from
these sources.  I am VERY busy now and really don't want to waste my time
looking up stuff you are only going to dispute.  I could care less if you
smoke the stuff or not.   If you are not interested in my findings, fine!

        The people who choose to take drugs because they can't handle every
day life are animals.  The people who think and choose wisely avoiding the
lies of drugs are humans....

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 7479
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Kars / Automotive
Subject: CLIFF/Paint
Date: 06/28/91  Time: 15:56:42

  I saw a nice Impala SS convertible that a guy was restoring up in Superior
recently. He did his own candy apple red paint with clear coats over it. It
was very impressive and he said he had $750 in materials in it.
  See You Later,
    Dean H.

Message: 7480
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Kars / Automotive
Subject: Candy Apple
Date: 06/28/91  Time: 16:44:34

        IS more costly then my Charger White by far.  My Charger Gold paint
was quite expensive for only One Quart.  He also may have added in the costs
of Bond, sand paper, tape and other items.  $750 for doing it yourself seems
a little steep even for Candy Apple.

        By the way Dean, how is your T-Bird comming?  What you working on
now?   I found a 390 distributer and I have it all rebuilt and ready for my
friend...  You may keep yours now!

        Maybe an Apollo Car Show is instore some day.  Dean's T-Bird, Nick's
Vett, Ann's Vet, Sandi Marlin's Falcon, Michael James's BMW, Mike Carter's
rubber band powerd Ford and of course, Bob Thornburgs wild Mopar!
Whoops... My Cuda and SysOp Charger....  I am sure I missed someone?
A show and tell GT for those of us interest in cars.....

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 7481
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Cliff/pot
Date: 06/29/91  Time: 01:39:54

If every doctors opinion is taken as true the conflict alone would be enough
to wreck someones mind.

Government paid doctors are given an opinion to publish.  If they don't
publish that opinion then they don't get paid, their house is taken away and
they become homeless.

Every now and then someone has the balls to tell the truth.  But this truth
is not carried by the popular news media as if it were the government would
pull their license and they would not get paid.  They would lose their
houses and be homeless.

People die and are made ill by aspirin.  There has never been a documented
death from the plant marijuana.  The reason it is illegal is political
rather than it being a health threat.  If health threats were illegal then I
can easily tally 50 things that would be outlawed and each of those items
are more harmful than pot.

                                        Rod

End of the Universe Bulletin Board command:$C
Press  to abort

Message: 1856
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Smoking article
Date: 06/24/91  Time: 07:32:57

Just wanted to mention there was a very SMALL article in the paper the other
day that stated a study in the Netherlands found out that cigarette smoking
decreased the risk of Alzimer's disease and not only that, the more you
smoked daily, the better off you were about not getting it!! They also said
that smoking may offer some protection from Parkinson's disease!!
 
Makes me wonder how big this article would have been if the studies showed
smoking put you at a greater risk to GET Alzimers. (Sarcastic smirk!)
                           *>>> ANN O. <<<*
P.S. I also noticed that the marijuana vote here - that MORE then half the
people of Apollo wanted it legalized.

Message: 1857
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: last
Date: 06/25/91  Time: 05:46:37

 What the article probably failed to state was the thought that Alzheimer's
is a problem of aging, and most heavy smokers probably never get old enough
for it to be a problem. (another sarcastic smirk)

Public Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 76129
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Dean on booth
Date: 06/28/91  Time: 01:20:51

        You will know it is from a phone booth before you answer... if you
decide to even answer....  Bad guy will never know....
        Funny it works well where tried, and jet you insist it won't.  I
have already seen the system thanks to Mr Zagar.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 76130
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann/parenting
Date: 06/28/91  Time: 02:25:40

We found with our daughter that spanking wasn't necessary.  Oh, Jane did
give her a swat or two on the bottom when she was quite small and did
something especially annoying, but it was an extremely rare event.  I never
did.  What is interesting is that the once or twice I got *really* angry
about something she did and actually *shouted* at her, I got a very quick
(and positive) reaction -- every bit as effective as a parent might expect
from actually spanking a kid!  But perhaps other kids get inured to yelling.

You mention a method somewhere between the "old" and the "new" way of
raising children.  I wonder if it hasn't been a large part of the problem
that some parents fell into a gap between the two methods.  Some people
characterize these methods in terms of whether you spank a kid or whether
you don't.  But you can't produce a new method of raising kids just by
taking old methods and subtracting spanking.  Not an effective method,
anyway.  Kids, like everybody else, *will* push the limits of what they can
do (which in general is a positive human trait, but also causes contention).
If you're not going to spank a kid, there has to be some other sanction to
use.

There are plenty of things that can be done, mainly the withdrawal of
objects or privileges.  One method that's especially effective is "time out"
-- if the kid isn't behaving, you immediately put him in his room or some
other isolated place for a time.  One advantage of this method compared with
spanking is that it gives "time out" to both the parents and the kid.

It gives the *kid* an opportunity to cool off and think more calmly about
what he's done, and whether it was a good idea or not.  Spanking on the
other hand imposes a temporary overload -- it heats the situation up instead
of cooling it down.

My feeling about spanking is that it tends to teach physical attack as a
first resort, rather than a last resort, to problem solving.  Kids absorb
this lesson, and often use it later.  And spanking has a limited life.  You
may have behavioral problems with a sixteen-year-old son, but if he's six
foot one and 190 pounds, it's a bit difficult to spank him.  You have to
resort to other means of conflict resolution; so why not start practicing
other means of discipline as early as possible?  No, you can't pick the guy
up and put him in his room either, but there are other sanctions you can
use.  Most important, if there has been a friendly and honest parent-child
relationship, the kid will be motivated to want to continue it.  But if the
parent always kept the kid under his thumb in a hostile and dictatorial
manner, there isn't the same relationship for the kid to want to preserve.

Parents often report trouble when kids reach their teen years, and we all
know some of the causes.  Young adults have an inbuilt urge to want
independence at this time.  Sex is a new force that requires new learning to
deal with -- and it isn't helped if the parents themselves have difficulty
around sexual issues.  Undesirable peer pressures are a menace.  And so on.

Still, I wonder if a lot of parent-child relationships don't break down at
this time because the *only* method of getting peace in the home was to push
the kid around physically.  Suddenly, the kid's too big to do that with any
more.  And there's nothing else effective to replace it with, if there was
never an attempt to develop a better way of conflict resolution.  All in
all, I'm convinced that whether a kid was raised successfully doesn't depend
much on whether or not the kid got an occasional swat.  It does depend on
how the parents handled childraising in general.

Maybe kids are so different as to make it difficult for some parents to get
away without spanking.  I won't argue about that because I can't claim
experience of lots of other kids.  But I will say that we've had good
results with our daughter.  The best test is a comparison with other kids in
an environment outside the home -- i.e., school -- and her teachers have
noted that she's friendly and polite and never a discipline problem -- which
is a lot more than they'd say for a few of the other kids.  Our daughter's
present teacher (first grade) comes from Louisiana, and she is quite
traditional about the importance of good manners.  She said quite frankly
that the lack of manners in some of the kids horrifies her.  I went to one
of these classroom parties they occasionally have in school -- "temporary
room father" if you like -- and handed out some candy to all of the kids.
This was my daughter's class, and only she and one other girl bothered to
say "thank you".

I think good manners is more than a superficial convention.  It's a
manifestation of an underlying respect for people; and it's that attitude
that you want to teach by demonstrating it.

There are two effects of spanking: one, it inflicts pain (which can vary
from negligible to severe), and two, it's an instant and clear expression of
disapproval.  It's the pain part that can degenerate into abuse and cause
damage if overdone; but some clear means of expressing disapproval *is*
essential in childraising.  I get the impression that some parents went
wrong in that they not only avoided spanking, but did their best to avoid
expressing any disapproval of a child's behavior under any circumstances.
This is bound to fail.  It isn't honest, for a start, because it doesn't
express the parents' real feelings, opinions, or needs.  It gives no
guidance to a child in how to get on with other people.  And no doubt some
of these parents gritted their teeth and tolerated what the child did until
they couldn't stand it any more, then got ticked off and yelled or spanked
the kid; then they felt guilty for doing things "wrong" so they tried to
make up for it by spoiling the kid.  Guilt in parents isn't very useful.

I agree with everything Roger said about the need for consistency, and the
need for action.  You might be easy-going and genuinely not mind something a
child does that other parents might find objectionable.  But if you *don't*
like what the child is doing, it's no good whining "no, no" in a wimpy
ineffectual voice and *letting the child do it anyway*.

Spock himself had a lovely example of actively tempting a two-year-old to
disobedience: "Now remember, Susie, don't go near the radio..."  If you
don't take action, you're inviting the child to experiment with how far you
can be ignored and manipulated.

With respect to day care, I think there are pros as well as cons.  I'm also
convinced that the pros (or the need for them) wouldn't exist at all if we
hadn't lost the advantages of the close community and the extended family.
In the old way of doing things, a mother would raise her children at home,
but (a) she wouldn't get bored and stressed out (and maybe take it out on
the kids) because she wouldn't be *isolated* in the home all day; (b) the
kids would benefit from relationships with other adults who shared casually
in caring for them; and (c) there would be other kids to play with --
especially important for an only child.  Day care, while not ideal, does at
least compensate for some ills of modern life, at the expense of separating
mother from child.  (Quite likely you were happier staying at home than some
less imaginative women because you always found something creative to do.)

Our daughter was in family day care since she was three months old, and it
has worked out well.  I think day care can work well if it is seen as an
extension of the family environment.  Thus, I would far rather see *young*
children cared for in an informal family setting than in anything resembling
an institution.

It's crucial to have a close relationship between the parents and the
caregivers.  The parents must take responsibility for ensuring that the
caregiver's attitude and approach to childraising is suitable.  (I
personally rejected one woman out of hand for a long list of subtle but
important reasons.)  Just as important, I think the relationship with a
caregiver should be long-term.  It's not fair to shuttle a child from pillar
to post.  There ought to be a sense of continuity and security.

We've been quite lucky in the day care providers we've found.  The first
woman looked after our daughter for the better part of two years -- from the
time she was three months old until they moved to Florida.  She had a
wonderful, bright personality and was excellent in every way.

This is why I object strongly to the way the Democrats typically go about
pushing "availability" of day care.  While the effect of their proposals
would be to put more children in day care, the financial provisions favor
day care "institutions" at the expense of private relationships among
people.  If a mother wants to or must work instead of caring for her
children at home, the next best solution is usually to have another family
member -- say an aunt or grandmother -- look after them.  Yet the proposals
I've seen give no financial incentive whatever for this kind of arrangement.

Message: 76136
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann/housewife
Date: 06/28/91  Time: 02:33:01

I've heard of other women getting the kind of reaction you got to
"admitting" that they were housewives.  What do I say?  *Was* she genuinely
surprised that a "mere" housewife was so competent in several ways?
Possibly, but I think that's making excuses for her rudeness and hostility.
It seems significant that she made that kind of comment when you made a good
shot -- as if she was annoyed because you did something better than she did,
and had to reassure herself by pointing out to everyone that in some *other*
way you were really inferior to her -- by her warped standards, at least.

This poor woman is either brainwashed by her peers and incapable of thinking
for herself, or else she's a slave to her need for "status" -- measured
again by somebody else's standards.  She thinks that having a job that she
gets paid for makes her "better" than somebody else -- more independent, or
cleverer (a myth that you upset her by shattering). or worth more money, or
something.  No doubt she also thinks that wearing particular clothes or
driving a particular car also makes one person better than another.  Valuing
one's wellbeing solely in terms of money is a major mistake, because it
totally ignores the *basic* question "how much satisfaction of all kinds am
I getting out of life?"

Much of what's wrong with society is caused by people wasting their lives
chasing after illusory "status" needs.  When most of us can afford more
possessions than we ever could before, why do most couples now need two
salaries to survive?  Mainly I think this is driven by greed.

I don't mean that *everybody* is greedy, but I do think that when large
numbers of people are greedy, their greed has a knock-on effect for
everyone else.  Suppose lots of women go out to work full time when they
don't need to; they just like lots of money -- much of which goes on items
to show off with rather than just to enjoy.  OK, now the couple can afford
more possessions.  But now they can also afford to pay more for basic items
that everybody needs.  So they drive the price up.  Some basic needs,
especially housing, are always in limited supply.  More money chasing the
same limited supply can only make such items less affordable for everybody
else.  So all the *other* people are forced to work harder, or to go to work
when they didn't before, just to keep up with those basic necessities.

There's not much you can do to change the thinking of women like this one
you met.  They insist on trying to play one-upmanship in subtle or not-so-
subtle ways because that's their game.  And they hate it when they lose.  I
suppose you could have asked her to explain to you -- because you've "never
quite been able to understand it" -- what it is that people get out of a job
working to a fixed schedule for somebody else, when you get far more fun and
creativity out of the things you do at home.

I hope you told her you were an artist and you'd had your work published in
magazines...  No, on second thoughts it's better to leave her with a few
scraps of ego to cling to.  Never kick people when they're down.

Message: 76138
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Annie!
Date: 06/28/91  Time: 05:30:21

 I don't know about you, gal! Trying to talk to you about something like
this is like talking to a wall.
Okay. Let's run this by another way.
 When I speak of child abuse, I am not talking about the occasional
spanking, or discipline administered with equal amounts of love. I am
talking abot immersing an infants privates into scalding water. I am talking
about hot curling irons shoved into infant vaginas and rectums. I am talking
about cigarette burns intentionally inflicted on various parts of very small
anatomies. I am talking about babies tied (or chained) to beds while parents
go out partying. I am talking about kids locked in dark closets for hours,
or even days. Horrible? Gross? Unthinkable? You bet it is! But, dear lady,
IT HAPPENS! Someplace, every single day! What's your answer? Lock the
miscreant parents up after the fact? Put them in jail and throw the key
away? Take the kids from them and make them wards of the state? All those
things are being done now, and they have not reduced the incidence of child
abuse one iota. What's so wrong in your mind about PREVENTION? What's the
matter with education that prepares young prospective parents for the most
awesome responsibility that they will ever face in their lives? Many more
members of the younger generation will become parents over the next few
years than will ever become bankers, sports figures, musicians, doctors or
whatever. It seems to me that more stress should be placed on the real facts
of life than on specialized education in career fields. We choose what we
want to be, careerwise. We become parents by performing natural biological
functions. Educate! Educate! Educate!

Message: 76139
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Answer!
Subject: Paul Carelli
Date: 06/28/91  Time: 05:35:27

 I wasn't implying anything in my message on the questionable "work of art".
I was merely describing it, and giving my opinions on it as well as on what
I consider to be a warped mind that "created" it. I can't look into the mind
of the "artist", nor would I care to.

Message: 76140
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Felix
Date: 06/28/91  Time: 05:37:21

"I'll probably be the first Christian fed to the lions when the Anti-Christ
takes over."
 We won't be here, brother!

Message: 76141
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Roger #76101
Date: 06/28/91  Time: 06:50:33

You sound like you were/are a good father/husband! My first husband, the
children's father didn't lift a hand - he thought all that stuff woman's
work and beneath him as a man. Even when I was sick - he made a mess and I
had to get well to clean it up - it waited for me! Needless to say, I am not
married to him any longer. *>>> ANN O. <<<*

Message: 76142
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Gordon on tea
Date: 06/28/91  Time: 06:53:20

Thanks for telling use the real 
British way to make tea. I see what you mean about a tea bag - what it looks
like.
BTW - since tea leaves grounds - is it proper to strain it or is that a 'no
no'? How about sun tea?*>>> ANN O. <<<*

Message: 76143
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cat on wife
Date: 06/28/91  Time: 06:57:11

Bonnie is a housewife? No kidding? (snicker) -=*) PEACHES (*=-

Message: 76144
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Doggy on gas
Date: 06/28/91  Time: 07:06:38

I guess I should have said we know just about how much gas it takes to get
to Prescott and back in the Vette - Ditto Congress. When we saw that we were
barely going to make it TO Prescott in 3/4th of a tank, we knew something
was wrong, plus, it was missing so very badly. On my dashboard, the gas gage
is digital - with little lines depicting the gas used. On the way back
after filling up, it didn't hardly move from the top because we were going
downhill most of the way. Also, on the dashboard is a read out of the
miles-per-gallon at any given time - on the way up there we were getting 9
miles per gallon. We should have been getting 25 or more going uphill!
Vettes are not really gas hogs, especially on the road and on the way home
we were getting 28 - 32 miles per gallon. So you see.....! *>>> ANN O. <<<*

Message: 76145
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Pauley on abuse
Date: 06/28/91  Time: 07:26:02

I too believe in education, but I still ask you what are you going to tell
the prospective parents about abuse? Yes, I know these horriable things go
on and so do the prospective parents via the media. Outside of telling them
"don't abuse their children" - what else is there to this 'education' you
are professing? Do you feel there is a whole school year that sould be
devoted to this education? Several years? Then what? Do you suppose that
wil make a real difference? It's like Driver's school - you can teach a
person all there is to know about driving, but it won't make them obey the
laws, speed limit any better! You say there is a real need - you say we
should educate - you talk of the atrocities - yet, you really have not any
solutions, just words. You think I'm nit picking? Well I'm not. I would
really like to know what you think should be taught about this problem.
What the heck, if you were more clear, I might agree with you!
                      *>>> ANN O. <<<*

Message: 76146
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Gordon on raising
Date: 06/28/91  Time: 07:42:20

With my three kiddies - I had to handle each differently. My first daughter,
she needed routine spankings and she got them. My middle son you could beat
bloody and it wouldn't have done a bit of good - but take away a prized toy
or put him on restrictions ......!!! My youngest daughter - she was so good,
she didn't need any spankings or discipline. (Where she came from I haven't
the foggiest! Ha) 
Re: spankings in general - I believe in them when the child is first walking
up to the point when restrictions can be used just as effectively - 5 -6
years depending on the 'crime'! I've spanked my first daughter when she was
10 because she deserved a spanking. It was, fortunately, the last time. You
can't spank a teenager and expect to have harmony in the home! I have
problems with all of this because of my first husband - he didn't believe in
spankings - he believed in 'beatings with a belt'! Except for a very few, I
put a stop to that fast, but he was considered 'from the old school'! B.S. I
say - he had a mean streak is all! It wouldn't have been considered child
abuse way back then though. In fact, he was considered a good father in his
circle. Again I say "B.S." My mother beat me pretty regularly and I survived
and for the most part, deserved all I got! She used a belt too. Another
thing she did was slap my mouth when I said an improper thing. I don't know
how good that was but throughout my years on up to a few years ago when it
became so common to swear - I didn't even say damn! I hear kids under 10
using the foulest language now. Not being a psychiatrist I don't know if
that's good or bad, but I didn't do it and got slapped when I did - nice
stinging one's to the mouth area! *>>> ANN O. <<<

Message: 76147
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Gordon on woman
Date: 06/28/91  Time: 07:54:28

I don't know what motivated that woman we were shooting pool with - she
seemed like she wanted us to be friends, yet she made these comments.
Before we started shooting, she anounced she was quite good at pool and
bragged she was hard to beat etc. etc. - typical stuff I've heard a million
times from both men and women. I broke and didn't make a ball, she made two
and missed and I run the table. She stood there with her mouth open but then
started insinuating that I had a lucky game and she challenged the table
again and again and again and ......! This person could not play good pool
what-so-ever - drunk or sober! She must have had a good night somewhere in
her past and it gave her the illusion she could shoot good! She was also
bragging how long she had played - which was 4 years and she ask me how long
I had played and I told her about 30 years and her mouth flew open! No, I
didn't tell her about my published art work - I got my revenge on the table
all evening. She didn't win a game! 
 
What is really puzzling about all of this - we haven't shot pool in almost a
year and I played over five hours that night and only lost one game! 
 
Talk about HER bragging - I think this entire post is one long brag on my
part! Ha ha. *>>> ANN O. <<<*

Message: 76148
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Answer!
Subject: Felix/nomeansno
Date: 06/28/91  Time: 08:10:08

I suspect that parent is going through the motions. It's interesting to hear
what teen-agers have to say about parents. One of the items high on their
list is for parents to set limits and stick with them. (or no means no)
 
OTOH, the parent who means maybe when they say yes is just as bad. Saying
yes and then saying no can lead to the kid sneaking around the parents
because they never know what the parent means.

Message: 76149
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Gordon/spanking
Date: 06/28/91  Time: 08:20:08

When our son hit our daughter, I was stopped short when I realized that
spanking would be an ineffectual way of punishing such acts. "Why can't I
hit my sister?" Ans: "Hitting is wrong" "Now bend over while I give you a
swat."

Message: 76150
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Caller I.D.
Date: 06/28/91  Time: 14:23:25

        I sure hope Gordon and Dean are not implying that " I will sell or
give out the numbers of those who call Apollo BBS "  I can assure you that
this will be private!  The caller log will be auto deleted after 48 hours.
ONLY if there is a problem will the numbers involved be printed out.  Such
as someone trying to break into another $tatus members password...  ETC.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 76151
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff/Phones
Date: 06/28/91  Time: 16:12:31

  How will you know the call is from a phone booth, and what good will it do
you to know? Are you going to refuse to answer any call that comes from one?
I don't believe that this caller-id scheme is going to be the great cure-all
you claim.
  Of course I wasn't implying that Apollo would become a source of phone
number distribution. You already have my number because I want you to have
it. That is not the case with those who would be able to compile lists of
numbers with caller-id{
  Caller-id will probably be pretty easy to sidestep for anyone who wants to
do mischief, and will amount to extra expense and/or loss of privacy for
everyone else.
   See You Later,
     Dean H.

Message: 76152
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Dean
Date: 06/28/91  Time: 16:55:47

        Where did I say it was a 'Cure-all' ???????

        You can't side step it as you have been thinking you can? When a
call comes from a phone booth you will see the words 'phone-booth' on the
second line.   I do not think you have been paying attention to the news on
Caller I.D.

        As for phone numbers, even if you had an unpublished, unlisted
number, I could get it from a good friend that works in the phone company in
a computer depatment.  There are other ways...get it from a police computer
in a cruiser.  Why do you think they are going to buy your number from a
business, when all you got to do is get a free phone book?  

        Now, go to line one and answer, where did I say it was a 'cure-all'?

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 76153
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Robber Barons
Date: 06/28/91  Time: 17:49:52

  In June 1894, workers at the Pullman Palace Car Company
went on strike.  One can get an idea of the kind of support
they got, mostly from the immediate vicinity of Chicago, in
the first months of the strike, from a list of contributions
put together by the Reverend William H. Carwardine, a
Methodist pastor in the company town of Pullman for three
years (he was sent away after he supported the strikers):
     Typographical Union #16
     Painters and Decorators Union #147
     Carpenters' Union No. 23
     Thirty-fourth Ward Republican Club
     Grand Crossing Police
     Hyde Park Water Department
     Picnic at Gardener's Park
     Milk Dealer's Union
     Hyde Park Liquor Dealers
     Fourteenth Precinct Police Station
     Swedish Concert
     Chicago Fire Department
     German Singing Society
     Cheque from Anaconda, Montana
  The Pullman strikers appealed to a convention of the
American Railway Union for support:
       Mr. President and Brothers of the American Railway
     Union.  We struck at Pullman because we were without
     hope.  We joined the American Railway Union because it
     gave us a glimmer of hope.  Twenty thousand souls, men,
     women and little ones, have their eyes turned toward
     this convention today, straining eagerly though dark
     despondency for a glimmer of the heaven-sent message 
     you alone can give us on this earth....
       You all must know that the proximate cause of our
     strike was the discharge of two members of our 
     grievance committee....  Five reductions in wages....
     The last was the most severe, amounting to nearly 
     thirty per cent, and rents had not fallen....
       Water which Pullman buys from the city at 8 cents a
     thousand gallons he retails to us at 500 percent 
     advance....  Gas which sells at 75 cents per thousand
     feet in Hyde Park, just north of us, he sells for 
     $2.25.  When we went to tell him our grievances he said
     we were all his "children."...
       Pullman, both the man and the town, is an ulcer on 
     the body politic.  He owns the houses, the 
     schoolhouses, and churches of God in the town he gave 
     his once humble name....
       And thus the merry war--the dance of skeletons bathed
     in human tears--goes on, and it will go on, brothers,
     forever, unless you, the American Railway Union, stop
     it; end it; crush it out.
  The American Railway Union responded.  It asked its 
members all over the country not to handle Pullman cars.
Since virtually all passenger trains had Pullman cars, this
amounted to a boycott of all trains--a nationwide strike.
Soon all traffic on the twenty-four railroad lines leading
out of Chicago had come to a halt.  Workers derailed freight
cars, blocked tracks, pulled engineers off trains if they
refused to cooperate.
  The General Managers Association, representing the
railroad owners, agreed to pay two thousand deputies, sent
in to break the strike.  But the strike went on.  The
Attorney General of the United States, Richard Olney, a
former railroad lawyer, now got a court injunction against
blocking trains, on the legal ground that the federal mails
were being interfered with.  When the strikers ignored the
injunction, President Cleveland ordered federal troops to
Chicago.  On July 6, hundreds of cars were burned by 
strikers.
  The following day, the state militia moved in, and the
Chicago *Times* reported on what followed:
       Company C. Second Regiment ... disciplined a mob of
     rioters yesterday afternoon at Forty-ninth and Loomis
     Streets.  The police assisted and ... finished the job.
     There is no means of knowing how many rioters were
     killed or wounded.  The mob carried off many of its 
     dying and injured.
A crowd of five thousand gathered.  Rocks were thrown at the
      Militia, and the command was given to fire.
     ...To say that the mob went wild is but a weak
     expression....  The command to charge was given....
     From that moment only bayonets were used....  A dozen
     men in the front line of rioters received bayonet
     wounds....
       Tearing up cobble stones, the mob made a determined
     charge.... the word was passed along the line for each
     officer to take care of himself.  One by one, as
     occasion demanded, they fired point blank at the 
     crowd....  The police followed with their clubs.  A 
     wire fence inclosed the track.  The rioters had 
     forgotten it; when they turned to fly they were caught
     in a trap.
       The police were not inclined to be merciful, and
     driving the mob against the barbed wires clubbed it
     unmercifully....  The crowd outside the fence rallied
     to the assistance of the rioters....  The shower of
     stones was incessant....
       The ground over which the fight had occurred was like
     a battlefield.  The men shot by the troops and police
     lay about like logs....
  In Chicago that day, thirteen people were killed, 
fifty-three seriously wounded, seven hundred arrested.  
Before the strike was over, perhaps thirty-four were dead.
With fourteen thousand police, militia, troops in Chicago,
the strike was crushed.  Debs was arrested for contempt of 
court, for violating the injunction that said he could not 
do or say anything to carry on the strike.  He told the 
court: "It seems to me that if it were not for resistance to
degrading conditions, the tendancy of our whole civilization
would be downward; after a while we would reach a point 
where there would be no resistance, and slavery would come."
  Debs, in court, denied he was a socialist.  But during his
six months in prison, he studied socialism and talked to 
fellow prisoners who were socialists.  Later he wrote: "I 
was to be baptized in Socialism in the roar of conflict ...
in the gleam of every bayonet and the flash of every rifle
the class struggle was revealed....  This was my first
practical struggle in Socialism."
  Two years after he came out of prison, Debs wrote in the
*Railway Times*:
       The issue is Socialism versus Capitalism.  I am for
     Socialism because I am for humanity.  We have been 
     cursed with the reign of gold long enough.  Money
     constitutes no proper basis of civilization.  The time
     has come to regenerate society--we are on the eve of a
     universal change.
  Thus, the eighties and nineties saw bursts of labor
insurrection, more organized than the spontaneous strikes of
1877.  There were now revolutionary movements influencing
labor struggles, the ideas of socialism affecting labor
leaders.  Radical literature was appearing, speaking of
fundamental changes, of new possibilities for living.

Message: 76159
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Drug Talk
Subject: A Hymn to Hemp
Date: 06/28/91  Time: 21:43:16

Heard from my grandmother
An old Bible in her attic told
In the part reserved for family histories
How one of my ancestors came over on the *Mayflower*
John Holland, a 13-year-old boy
Who was swept overboard at night in a storm
Someone threw a rope over the side into the dark
and miraculously he caught it
and was hauled back in,
"And if he hadn't caught that rope, you wouldn't be here now."
Thirty years later I realize
Way back then rope was hemp and so:
Marijuana saved my life!

                              - Antler
                              Whole Earth Review (Spring 1990)

(I know.  It's no basis for a serious argument, but it's
cute, timely, and less gruesome than hemp nooses.)

Message: 76160
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Apro/hemp
Date: 06/29/91  Time: 01:58:57

So, there is a documented incident of marijuana saving someones life?

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