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Apollo BBS Archive - June 13 - 18, 1991
Mail from Apro Poet
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 19:26:47
[A]bort, [N]ew only, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read
I think your comments *while* you were spaced would be
interesting too. Just don't go shooting any more holes in
trucks! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Just kidding. (Bad joke)
Apro Poet
[A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply
Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
1:I had an interesting experience, which I am going to post on the [B] in four
2:parts. The only part I did not include is that I smoked some pot and during
3:that period (several hours) I was more in control of the pain. I gained
4:more of a positive, in control feeling with it (much more so than if I had
5:eaten a quarter pounder with extra cheese, super fries and a large milk
6:shake).
7:
8:Hasn't approximately 11,000 earth years passed since we last shifted our
9:magnetic poles?
10:
11:I wonder how this period of life will be viewed by future civilizations once
12:they dig us up? What a bunch of fucking assholes or maybe, "those poor
13:bastards, lost, lost, lost", are two possible answers they could give, I
14:suppose.
15:
16: Rod
17:P.S. I know how to start a revolution by ad.
End of the Universe Bulletin Board command:$C
Press [A] to abort
Message: 1818
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Airplane exhaust
Date: 06/12/91 Time: 23:13:38
does not KILL you...unless the engine falls on your head.
I was on a aircraft carrier... the polution you speak of is nill to
non-existant. It does not have the poisons in it as does cigarett smoke.
The TAR that gums up your lungs and takes the oxygen away come only from
high concentrations of tobacco smoke.
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 1819
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Blowing Smoke
Subject: Ann on U.B.
Date: 06/12/91 Time: 23:35:11
Ann, I am getting real annoyed at your arrogance toward my Uncle
Bob. He was the ONLY one in my side of the family to welcome Sandy and come
over and talk to us. He was the ONLY one who really liked Sandy and did not
look down his long nose at us. For this I loved him more then I had ever
before. I felt and still feel very, very hurt about losing him. To lose
him to something as STUPID as a cigarette craving really has me angry.
There is nothing made up... Smoking killed him in a very painful death.
Every thing you and Rod believe in about smoking plant material is a
LIE. You two are only fooling yourselves. I don't care if you smoke
yourselves to death tomorrow, I am not going to shed no more tears for
anyone so stupid as to not see the facts.
This other thing about you saying I smell the next door neighbor
when he is smoking IN HIS HOUSE is another slanderious, hateful LIE
fabricated in your head. I only pick up his smoking when he is outside and
the wind is blowing in my direction and when I have all the windows open.
Every day when I pick up cigarette butts from my yard, I now think
of you. Aren't you pleased that I relate you to a dirty habit. People who
smoke seem to think my desert granite landscape is for their Cig Butts.
I don't care anymore... smoke yourself to death.
Message: 1820
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Answer!
Subject: Annie/1813
Date: 06/13/91 Time: 06:09:16
Well, for one thing, the pollution caused by fuel consumption is released
in outdoor air, and, to a great degree, is dissipated into the atmposphere.
Besides, steps are being taken (i.e. oxygenated fuel, exhaust limiting
systems such as catalytic converters, etc.) to reduce such pollution.
THe major problem with tobacco pollution is that it is released in more or
less confined spaces, such as homes, restaurants and etc. The results of
that pollution are much easier to detect, since the poisons emitted by the
smoker can be more easily detected in the systems of the people affected.
As it has been mentioned, if everyone used hydrogen or other based fuels,
that systemic pollution could be greatly reduced, or even eliminated, and I
have no problem with steps taken in that direction. In fact, I applaud them.
What I fail to understand is why you addicts, with all the FACTS before you,
insist that you do no harm to others, and insist on your alleged "rights" to
pollute the air that others are then forced to inhale.
Message: 1821
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Shut Up Already!
Subject: Carter
Date: 06/13/91 Time: 07:00:58
In answering some of your statements from you nice post ...
Hey! I loved my Uncle Alva just as much as Cliff loved his precious Uncle
Bob. I hated to see him die and it was a pretty horriable death (is there
any other kind?) to and it WASN'T smoking related.
Re: your ...."Someone who wholeheartedly approves of the slaughter of
un-born babies ...." How typical of you to say something like that. You are
absolutely the biggest fanatic on that subject or any subject I've ever met
or heard about. You are so fanatical I think your sick at times.
You have the gaul to talk about MY self righteousness? As stiff neck and
rock hard of a person that you are shouldn't be calling other people names
like that. You speak of Cliff loving his uncle and I don't know how you can
use the word love in your vocabulary at all - I'll bet there isn't one drop
of it in you! I'd be afraid of you if you were my neighbor. With your turn
of the century missionary' views, vile, nasty temper, self righteourness and
your stance on guns, I'd move quick.
My advice to you is -- go have a cigarette. You need it! Also a good shot of
booze. A double.
Message: 1822
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Shut Up Already!
Subject: Cliff
Date: 06/13/91 Time: 07:14:04
Also in answer to your sweet post ...
How can you sit there and tell me you didn't say to me (us) at least 3 -4
times that you can be in your house with the window opened and smell the guy
next door smoking in his living room (family room?)??? Not only have you
posted that here, you told me that in my own home and in your own home!
You pick up cigarette butts in your yard EVERYDAY? Isn't that a tad
exaggeration? I cannot believe THAT many people and THAT many smokers walk
by your house everyday and toss butts in your yard.
Your getting annoyed at my arrogance over your Uncle Bob? Ok then, you stop
being arrogant and then I will! If you don't want "Another, slanderous,
hateful lie" about him, then don't bring him up!
Speaking of 'ANOTHER slanderous, hateful lie' .... what is slanderous about
anything I've said and what do you mean about ANOTHER one??? You feel I go
around slandering you all the time? I tell hateful lies about you? What are
YOU SMOKING?
Message: 1823
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Ann, Zone time! READ
Date: 06/13/91 Time: 08:31:38
I never said I could smell my neighbors smoking when he is in his
living room. That is a lie on your part. I said I could smell him from his
patio... and if the wind came in my direction. And he tosses the butts into
my yard. And I do find butts in my yard every day. How dare you tell me
what I do or don't find in my yard. You are really pissing me off
exagerating my dislike of cigarettes.
You are the one hooked on the stupid drugs... you are the fanatic.
You are the one who once said that cigarettes really don't bother anyone.
My posts were to prove to you that they really do. You just don't hear it.
When I am out to ENJOY myself, I go around smokers with a wide berth if I
can. If I can't, I just think nasty thoughts about their dirty little habit
and their rudness for smoking in the presence of others who may not smoke.
I never use to say anything to anyone till I found out there are so many
others who hate cigs with a passion as well, or get sick from them like I
do.
You either find that post where I said I could smell cigs though
walls...or you APOLLO-gize and withdraw that remark. Or you have a week in
the ZONE. A few months ago I even posted I did not care what people did in
their own homes and would never support any law to stop them from smoking in
their home. You called me a lier on that too... Little do you know.
Stop hating me because I don't condone smoking. I even wish you were my
neighbor.... sigh... get your facts straight!
Message: 1824
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Livingroom
Date: 06/13/91 Time: 10:20:20
It dawned on me where you heard me mention livingroom.. I said I
could smell their smoke while sitting in MY LIVINGROOM. Where in my own
house I am not even safe from the smoking crap when they are outside smoking
and the wind (breeze) is in my direction and my windows are OPEN for fresh
air. I wish they would smoke in their house... it does not bother me one
bit when they do. However, I have noticed since the old man died a while
back, they seem to be cutting down a whole bunch from what they did. The
old man was a chain smoker...
A little bit ago, someone was walking their dog. They stopped at my
corner and the dog did its thing and the man took his last puff, and tossed
his cig into my side yard. SIGH!
No, I did not say a thing..it does no good. I have found smokers to
be so rude, they would only do it more.
I still want that APOLLO-gee or it's the ZONE for you. Yes, I am
down on cigarettes, but not so that I would not expect them to smoke in
their home. You falsely accuse me, and I don't like it.
Message: 1825
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Blowing Smoke
Subject: company
Date: 06/13/91 Time: 10:29:52
I still have an ash tray outside for company... If I were a fanatic
like Ann claims, I would not provide this service. I would not let a smoker
set foot on my property. However, I do grin and except it. Even Ann knows
this to be true, yet she is telling you otherwise.
She is also making me afraid to visit her anylonger at her home.
Sniff... I do so love Ann's cooking... sniff.... Yes, there are times I
would have gone over with Sandy to vist, but Ann's exagerated comments have
kept me away. (not her smoking)
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 1826
Author: $ Michael James
Category: Deep Doo Doo!
Subject: Cliff
Date: 06/13/91 Time: 11:18:35
You're right. Dog owners can be very inconsiderate of people who don't have
dogs and don't like to find dog excrement in their yards or dogs running
around off their leashes in public places.
(A week in the Zone for Ann over this misunderstanding seems a little harsh,
don't you think?)
Message: 1827
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: last
Date: 06/13/91 Time: 12:40:27
Harsh... yes, I would probably only do it for one day in reality as
one day in the ZONE for Ann sends her into a tither. I just don't like
being mis-quoted as I do know people who smoke and other then to BBS people,
I hardly ever mention my dislike for it. The idea for a BBS is to speak
ones mind and get out the frustration. My neighbor probably does not even
know I dislike smoking. I never told him.... I doubt he has even noticed
we close the windows when he has a smoking party in his back yard.
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 1828
Author: $ Peter Petrisko
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: SMOKING
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 01:56:58
All this bickering has got me all nerved up.
Anyone have a light?
Message: 1829
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: errant smoke
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 06:12:14
Cliff, I used to have a similiar problem at the home I sold last year. The
neighbor behind me (across the alley), smoked those crummy cigars (I think
he used the ones made from floor sweepings. UGH!). His wife wouldn't allow
him to smoke them in the house, so he would sit in his back yard and light
up. The air flow wold then carry the stench from those things across the
ally into my yard, and, if I had my back door open for air, into my house.
Sort of made me feel like a prisoner in my own house, since I had to close
the door and windows while he was out there polluting the air. Damn things
ought to be outlawed EVERYWHERE!
Message: 1830
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Cliff/neighbor
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 06:15:48
Seems to me that you have every right to tell your neighbor that, even
though you find smoking offensive, you have no right to tell him he can't
smoke in his own yard, but that you do find picking up his butts in your
yard objectionable. After all, why should your yard double as his ash tray?
Message: 1831
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Blowing Smoke
Subject: A Light
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 07:49:20
Lessee. My flashlight is under the bed, I think.
Message: 1832
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Piss on it!
Subject: Cliff on apology
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 09:20:37
How can I appologize for that when I know you said it and not only that,
many times??? Find the post? How the hell can I do that?
BTW - how come any apology with threat of the Zone is necessary in this sig?
You'll have to put Mike and yourself in there with me because you are being
just as nasty as I am!! Free speech is getting to be a premium on Apollo it
seems - even in this sig. I guess censureship of the Cos is next er?
Have you ever once stopped to think that you offend me just as much as I do
you? No! I didn't think so. *>>> ANN O. <<<*
Message: 1833
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Cliff
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 09:36:31
I have never said you wouldn't let smokers on you property. If you recall, I
praised you for being so considerate even though I knew smoke bothered you.
I swear to you Cliff I have heard you make that statement many times and you
did NOT say the people were outside, but in their homes! In fact, one time I
sarcastically questioned you on that particular thing - being able to smell
it from inside their houses and you swore up and down you could. Why do you
refuese to remember that?
Why on earth would you refrain from coming over with Sandy? You say they are
my exagerated comments? Then you believe that a lot of my comments are
exagerated? After all, this particular instance is fairly new - a couple
days ago I made that statement - so how come last time she was here and the
time before and the time before that - months back you didn't come over???
Was it something I exagerated on then? You just flat quit coming over and I
thought it was because - #1 we smoked and - #2 we have so many animals!
I want you to realize one thing - I had backed off this cigarette subject
because it had started to get nasty a few weeks back - but you and Pauley
brought it right back up. So if you are getting flack, it's your own fault!
If you continue to spout off about what you think of smokers, then the
smokers will spout off about what they think of militant non-smokers! This
is realty Cliffy! Facts! *>>> ANN O. <<<*
Message: 1834
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Cliff on Zone
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 09:45:39
Aw, come on! I don't have to revise my 'Zone Groveling Speech' do I? How
come you are always threatening me with this when others are just as
outspoken as I am? Or does the only reason one gets thrown in the Zone is
because they go against the Mighty Sysop? *>>> ANN O. <<<*
Hey - lets get some facts straight about this sig. anyway while we're at it.
Is it or is it NOT a free speech sig with NO intervention from the sysop NO
matter what is said - like the Cos sig????? OR - are we living under the
illusion that it is simply because of the name of this sig. and the
catagories we can choose from like "Piss on it!" - "Shit Chat" etc. etc.
I really wish you would clear this up so that other members won't make the
mistake of saying forbidden things and ending up punished for it!
Message: 1835
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Answer!
Subject: Ann, Sigh!
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 12:32:40
I never never said I could smell smoke though walls. I would
remember that. The comment that has stopped me from comming over was the
stupid one you made about me wanting and supporting laws that would ban
smoking everywhere, including in the smokers home. I told you that was not
true and you called me a fanatic and stood your ground. At that time I
quit trying to reason with you and decided I would avoid you.
Now, you have me smelling smoke though walls of a neighbors house...
You are free to say what you want on this SIG. However, lies are
not included in this. That is slander, not free speech.
I don't blow smoke into your face... I don't even go over your house
anymore, so how do I offend you? I assume it's telling you the truth..
smoking 'STINKS'!
Maybe it's because I let Sandy go there and you are offended by
that. Well, I will try and fix that too.
Message: 1836
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Question?
Subject: Ann
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 23:07:52
RE: "--wholesale murder of unborn babies--"
Are you then reversing your stance on Abortion and joining the
pro-life side?
RE: "--militant non-smokers--"
You would be quite militant also if I repeatedly bombed your house
with stink gas, making the air unbreatheable to you.
Smoking a cigarette in an enclosed space has the same effects.
The only difference is, your skull is too thick to understand that.
Message: 1837
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Mike dear
Date: 06/15/91 Time: 13:26:21
When, pray tell, did I EVER "repeatedly bomb your house with stink gas???"
Why is it all the time you smoked, you did not feel you were 'stink gassing'
your own home and that the air was unbreathable?? *>>> ANN O. <<<*
Message: 1838
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Question?
Subject: Cliff
Date: 06/15/91 Time: 13:32:46
Re: "Maybe it's because I let SAndy go there (to my house) and you are
offended by that. Well, I will try and fix that too."
Let's clarify that above statement with some questions and I am going to
save this post to make sure nothing you say is forgotten by you at a later
date..... What would I be offended by when Sandy comes over? We have a great
time. I have NO idea what you mean by that.
Re: "I will try and fix that too." Does that mean you don't want her coming
over anymore? Will she stop because you don't want her to - like on Monday?
Do you usually tell Sandy where she can go and not go? I wasn't aware you
LET her come over here. Please clarify this. *>>> ANN O. <<<*
Message: 1839
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Ann
Date: 06/15/91 Time: 18:12:31
I always told Sandy to have a good time over at your place. I never
tried to stop her if that is what you are thinking. I have even enjoyed
visiting you and Whitey at your place, but your exagerations make it sound
otherwise.
For the last time.. When My neighbors smoke OUTSIDE in their Patio
and I have my back windows open, I can smell their smoke in MY livingroom.
Now, when are you and Whitey going to visit us.. a few drinks, a few
laughs and we can sniff the neighbors next door.
As for the 'Is Sandy offending you'... Well, I figured since I was
not going over there, it could not be my farts that were offending you
unless you wish to claim you could smell them that far away. If so I do
Apollo-gize! Since Sandy is in a way, my better half, I thought that was
what you ment. Is she burping again?
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 1840
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Annie/1837
Date: 06/16/91 Time: 05:22:33
You asked Mike "Why is it all the time you smoked, you did not feel you
were 'stink gassing' your own home and that the air was unbreathable?"
It has well been said that a skunk never smells his own hole. Mike, and I
as well, was once in your position, and can understand both sides of that
line, a position you cannot understand. An addicted smoker NEVER notices the
obnoxious smell he or she creates every time a cigarette is lit, nor can
they smell the lasting effect their addiction has on their clothing, their
hair, and everything else they come in contact with.
These long lasting and offensive smells can only be realized by one who is
not addicted to the poison. The addict's sense of smell, at least toward the
odor(s) he/she lives with constantly, is deadened.
Of course, this, too, is a medically and scientifically proven and
demonstrable fact, so I suppose that you will reject it, just as you have
all the other facts that have been presented here against your own
addiction. To do otherwise would be totally out of character for you.
Message: 1841
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Blowing Smoke
Subject: Ann
Date: 06/16/91 Time: 09:51:25
My, arent we defensive these days?
My analogy of stink-bombing *your* house was written *NOT* on actual
events, but to illustrate my point which you again failed to grasp.
You seem to have a mental block or extreeme difficulty being able to
pick out analogies, illustrations and differing viewpoints in discussions.
I think this contributes towards verification of your attitudes on topics
which you have no way of refuting, your response is to switch off what
linear logic you have and completely go ballistic, off into orbits around
your imaginary worlds.
Read Paul's message a couple times. Read Cliff's message a couple times.
Perhaps you will, one day, stop misquoting and playing around with your
deadly habit.
Message: 1842
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Cliff on SAndy
Date: 06/16/91 Time: 10:02:07
No, she doesn't burp - she farts also! No offence though. We all do that!
It's now all straight about your neighbor's cigarette smoke .... on every
other Wednesday at 6:30 PM when your neighbor is in his downstairs bathroom
with the door shut and he is smoking - you can smell it when you are in your
shop! Right? :)
You are welcome at my house at anytime - that has never been an issue - but
remember, we still have 4 dogs, 11 birds and Whitey Still smokes! My
Shalimar perfume can be overwhelming too, so beware! *>>> ANN O. <<<*
Message: 1843
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Pauley on Mike
Date: 06/16/91 Time: 10:03:35
I think you deserve a few days in the Zone for calling Mike a Skunk!
What do you think Bill? :) *>>> ANN O. <<<*
Message: 1844
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Mike/last
Date: 06/16/91 Time: 10:04:31
Yawn!
Message: 1845
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Ann
Date: 06/16/91 Time: 16:41:54
I think that Ann, if she didn't smoke before all the abuse she has taken
in the Sig would have taken up smoking because of it. Let's give Ann a
break and lighten up a little.
Message: 1846
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Roger/last
Date: 06/17/91 Time: 06:10:36
Thank you Roger. Would you pass me the lighter please? *>>> ANN O. <<<*
Message: 1847
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Ann/smoking
Date: 06/17/91 Time: 08:08:30
Certainly my dear. Are you about to light the coals. Speaking of coals, it
is now getting hot enough for us outdoor cooks to cook directly on the cool
decking. (Why is it called cool deck when it is so hot ?)
Message: 1848
Author: $ James Hawley
Category: Blowing Smoke
Subject: Neighbor
Date: 06/18/91 Time: 01:54:50
I can smell it when my neighbor smokes. She is often out of town, but I can
tell when she is home. Not in my bedroom, but certainly in the kitchen and
hall.
Message: 1849
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Annie
Date: 06/18/91 Time: 05:46:37
You don't think for a minute that anybody's going to pay attention to
Roger, do you Annie?
Picking on you is the lifeline of this BBS!
Smoke, smoke, smoke that cigarette!
Puff, puff, puff and when you smoke yourself to death,
Tell St. Peter at the golden gate,
you just hate to make him wait,
but you've just got to have another cigarette!
Message: 1850
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Blowing Smoke
Subject: James's neighbor
Date: 06/18/91 Time: 07:44:54
What is your neighbor doing in your kitchen and hall ? Does she cook for you
?
Message: 1851
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Pauley on song
Date: 06/18/91 Time: 09:09:29
Well??? Finish the song. I bet you don't know the rest of the words do ya?
I do! *>>> ANN O. (cough!) <<<*
Message: 1852
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Question?
Subject: Responsibility
Date: 06/18/91 Time: 12:42:55
Cliff, which specific person or persons do you hold responsible for the
death of your Uncle Bob?
Just curious.
Message: 1853
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Answer!
Subject: Last/Gordon
Date: 06/18/91 Time: 13:40:16
It was Uncle Bob's choice to smoke. However when he lost a lung to
smoking, he was pretty upset that he had not listened to the warnings over
the last few years and did not recall ANY warning when he took up the habit
as a young man in the army.
I hold no one person or persons responsible except for Bob Simpson
him self!
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 1854
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Question?
Subject: Last
Date: 06/18/91 Time: 16:57:21
Any relation to Homer?
Message: 1855
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: last 50
Date: 06/19/91 Time: 02:07:13
Shit, what a soap opera sig I'm on. This should be made into a play.
BTW, working at a location when oxygen is greatly diminished for three
to four minute periods can cause some weird brain patterns to develop. Be
sure to take in large amounts of oxygen when smoking anything so this
doesn't happen. But if you're on an aircraft carrier where hot exhaust is
burning the oxygen and keeping the breathable stuff at a minimun then the
only cure for it is deep breathing in a location that teems with fresh,
plant made oxygen molecules.
Public Bulletin Board command:$C
Message: 75696
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Drug Talk
Subject: Last/Rod
Date: 06/12/91 Time: 23:52:50
You have convinced me Rod.. There for a while I saw merit in
letting drugs, (such as pot) get legalized. Now I am against it. It makes
people crazy. I have been reading Sandy's medical books and you are all so
ignorant Mr Williams. You only pick up on what you want to hear.
Who said debates on here don't change minds. Rod has changed my
mind totaly against recreation drugs. I think there should be a death
penalty for such dealers of illegal mind altering drugs. I would volenteer
to pull the lever at the gas chamber that drops the pellets.
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif- drugs are for wimps
Message: 75697
Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: pot
Date: 06/13/91 Time: 03:56:47
I have never seen anyone become agressive while using marijuana. Alcohol
causes agression in people. Marijuana makes people more agreeable, but
dumber.
Message: 75698
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Politics
Subject: Bill B.
Date: 06/13/91 Time: 05:54:22
You seem to have a pretty good insight into the Phoenix P.D. Are you by any
chance connected with them? I agree, by the way, with your thought on the
next mayoral race. Two flip-flops in as many days are just too much to
swallow, unless there is a very strong underlying reason, and you put your
finger on as good a reason as any. Mayor Ortega sounds as good as the
adolescent that now occupies that chair, don't ya think?
Message: 75699
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff
Date: 06/13/91 Time: 05:58:45
I hope that, since the vehicles were occupied, that one of those criminal
charges are attempted murder. "Kids" like that don't belong in nice
residential neighborhoods.
Message: 75700
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Politics
Subject: Paul/Ortega Mayor.
Date: 06/13/91 Time: 07:41:41
nonononononononononononononononononononononononononononononononono.
Message: 75701
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Drug Talk
Subject: Nick
Date: 06/13/91 Time: 08:33:56
Well, I become a 'pussy cat' when on alcohol... Real friendly in
fact. Ask Ann.... (if she ain't in the Zone for a week...see FIN SIG)
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 75702
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Answer!
Subject: Paul
Date: 06/13/91 Time: 08:49:53
They were just shooting at the cars... They only wanted to scare
people and not murder them. Attempted murder is not charged against them
(as far as I know) A few weeks ago one of them asked Travis if he liked to
do 'bad' things. He told Travis he did.... Travis has nothing to do with
these jerks. Sandy showed two of these boys who were involved some very
nast weapon wound pictures... (8 X 10 color) and they sorta stood back when
she showed them an exit wound. Kids get the wrong idea of weapons from TV
shows. The disrespect for such tools may be Hollywoods fault in part.
You know had they hit the glass and Sandy knew she was being shot
at, I can't help wonder if we would have a dead kid...as Sandy may have
fired back in self defence. They hit only sheet metal and Sandy thought
someone had tossed a firecracker at her as it only sounded like a loud
'BAM'. If you did not know, Sandy would have hit the person easily from
that distance, and she was armed. Kids can be so stupid... makes me mad!
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif- still shaking
Message: 75703
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: $tatus users only
Subject: Friends
Date: 06/13/91 Time: 08:55:22
Mizz Dee made mention that a friend of hers was using Apollo. I
like this notice and try to make the system as friendly to these people as I
can. If I see a non-member logging in and I know who it is, I sometimes
lower the ((SHIELD)) level real fast so they can do what they want. If you
invite a friend to Apollo... tell me the name and I will do my best to see
they are treated well by the system.
Thank you Mizz Dee!
Note that this post can only be read by $tatus Members....
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 75704
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff-Shots Fired
Date: 06/13/91 Time: 09:05:38
> My Wife was in the truck with the younger boy Tyler.
Holy Cripes, Cliff! Glad to hear everyone's okay.
Why would this incident make you change you mind on drug legalization, but
not on gun control?
Message: 75705
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Politics
Subject: Paul-Mayor Ugh!tega
Date: 06/13/91 Time: 09:06:14
> You seem to have a pretty good insight into the Phoenix P.D.
> Are you by any chance connected with them?
Not any longer. I was Supervisor of Video Services at the Training
Academy a few years back. In the process of developing videotapes on
various subjects I got the chance to work directly with some of the
Department's top management. Having spent 12 years total in law
enforcement, while maintaining a strong interest in civil rights and other
legal issues, I try to keep up.
> Mayor Ortega sounds as good as the adolescent that now occupies
> that chair, don't ya think?
Absolutely NOT! Ortega is very much a "me-against-the-world" kind
of guy. Anyone that doesn't vow undying allegiance is suspect. He'd be
very ineffective at building the alliances necessary to guiding a
representative body such as the City Council.
Johnson, OTOH, is very much a consensus-builder. But, unlike Terry
Goddard and so many other politicians, approaches consensus-building with a
problem-solving attitude; with common sense, unencumbered by political
ambition. I believe Johnson has quite a future in public life, but that his
political successes will come to him for the same reasons they came to Jimmy
Stewart's Mr. Smith -- because he's "good folks," makes sense, and does
well.
Message: 75706
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Answer!
Subject: Bill
Date: 06/13/91 Time: 10:02:27
This incident has nothing to do with my changing my mind on drugs.
Rod's posts alone have shown me what drugs do to the mind. Screws it up!
Gun control... how about kid control? If Gun control would really
work, it would have to ban guns from everyone including government. And
this would have to include knives and ban anyone from becoming strong enough
to press 150 pounds. Ban tire irons and rocks and all blunt instruments.
Not very practical... I know how EASY it would be for me to make a
gun type weapon. But, I would not need too, there just are too many
available. I had hand guns in New York for crying out loud...as a little
kid. They are all over the place when you know where to look. Only the LAW
abiding citizen is un-armed and easy to mug. My Uncle Bob worked in New
York city at one of them big banks and was mugged several times. It was not
a knife or a gun that got him however, it was a cigarette!
Sandy as weapons instructor and advisor on weapons gets a book from
the government every year on statistics. And in New York and other places
where these gun control laws are the strictest, is WHERE crime is on its
biggest growth. Heck, if the bad guys know you are unarmed, they boldly
walk in an rob, mug, rape you as they know they are not going to get hurt by
you the civilian. It's against the law to defend yourself you might say.
As for the bad guys, the law did not stop them from getting guns, heck, they
are criminals already.
Message: 75707
Author: $ Steve MacGregor
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff/"Weed"
Date: 06/13/91 Time: 17:41:34
Let's straighten this up.
Someone back there claims that marijuana doesn't make people aggressive,
just stupid. Okay, go with that.
The kids that shot at the vehicles were *not* being aggressive. They were
just having some fun under the influence of cannibis. But being under that
particular influence, as you can see, casused them to be stupid enought that
they gave *no* thought to how dangerous their fun could be to others.
I have always been, and will continue to be, against the legalization of
marijuana and of any other "recreational" mind-altering drug.
We all live in a ....,,,,________nnhn____ yellow subroutine
Message: 75708
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Robber Barons
Date: 06/13/91 Time: 18:07:47
Andrew Carnegie was a telegraph clerk at seventeen, then
secretary to the head of the Pennsylvania Railroad, then
broker in Wall Street selling ralroad bonds for huge
commissions, and was soon a millionaire. He went to London
in 1872, saw the new Bessemer method of producing steel, and
returned to the United States to build a million-dollar
steel plant. Foreign competition was kept out by a high
tariff conveniently set by Congress, and by 1880 Carnegie
was producing 10,000 tons of steel a month, making $1-1/2
million a year in profit. By 1990 he was making $40 million
a year, and that year, at a dinner party, he agreed to sell
his steel company to J. P. Morgan. He scribbled the price
on a note: $492,000,000.
Morgan then formed the U.S. Steel Corporation, combining
Carnegie's corporation with others. He sold stocks and
bonds for $1,300,000,000 (about 400 million more than the
combined worth of the companies) and took a fee of 150
million for arranging the consolidation. How could
dividends be paid to all those stockholders and bondholders?
By making sure Congress passed tariffs keeping out foreign
steel; by closing off competition and maintaining the price
at $28 a ton; and by working 200,000 men twelve hours a day
for wages that barely kept their families alive.
And so it went, in industry after industry -- shrewd,
efficient businessmen building empires, choking out
competition, maintaining high prices, keeping wages low,
using government subsidies. These industries were the first
beneficiaries of the "welfare state." By the turn of the
century, American Telephone and Telegraph had a monopoly of
the nation's telephone system, International Harvester made
85 percent of all farm machinery, and in every other
industry resources became concentrated, controlled. The
banks had interests in so many of these monopolies as to
create an interlocking network of powerful corporation
directors, each of whom sat on the boards of many other
corporations. According to a Senate report of the early
twentieth century, Morgan at his peak sat on the board of
forty-eight corporations; Rockefeller, thirty-seven
corporations.
Message: 75710
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Shooting
Date: 06/13/91 Time: 18:19:50
I'm not even going to try to address this until
everyone's had a chance to calm down. I'm just happy that
no one was seriously hurt. You're taking this well, Cliff.
Please keep us posted on the case.
Apro Poet
Message: 75711
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Drug Talk
Subject: Steve on Weed
Date: 06/13/91 Time: 23:52:45
Yes, they were stupid, that's for sure. We are going to press
criminal charges as of this posting. I however have a seminar to attend
next week where I am going have my rights explained to me in full. The
parent of one of the shooters is trying to bully me into lowering the price
in damage to my truck and refuses to see why I need a rental for the 3 days
my vehicle will be laid up. Does not seem worried at all about their son's
pending criminal charges. Just seems worried about 'what it's going to cost
them'. They even boasted that they have kept their son ignorant of guns
and pretend they don't exist. They can't seem to see the fact that because
of this, their son's curiosity was peaked, and having no training in safety
he had no idea as to what he was doing. The statistics that the government
sends Sandy seems to bare this out. People who have had no training seem to
be the ones most likely to shoot other people.
I swear, they are looking for a K-Mart Blue Light Special on bullet
hole repair for my truck.... Up their's!
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif- fit to be tied.....
Message: 75712
Author: $ Peter Petrisko
Category: Question?
Subject: CLIFF
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 01:58:41
RE: "The potheads that shot at her..."
Do you have concrete evidence that these people do in fact smoke
marijuana?
Message: 75713
Author: $ Peter Petrisko
Category: Answer!
Subject: CLIFF ON DRUGS
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 02:01:27
RE: "I think there should be a death penalty for such dealers of mind
altering drugs."
DEATH TO PETER COORS! DEATH TO THE GALLOS BROTHERS! DEATH TO MR. BARTLES
AND MR. JAMES!
Message: 75714
Author: $ Don Hicks
Category: On the Lighter Side
Subject: anything&everything
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 03:53:33
"Kid control"...What a novel concept.
Message: 75715
Author: $ Don Hicks
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: science
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 03:55:12
Does anyone know what a _Photon Backscatter_ is?
-Don
Message: 75716
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff/crimes
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 05:47:55
I'm not so sure that the kids' intent in shooting at the vehicle would be
all that important. If the vehicle was occupied when it was shot at, the
occupants could conceivably have been killed. I'm no lawyer, but it seems to
me that such an act could be interpreted as attempted homicide.
Message: 75717
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Politics
Subject: Bill
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 05:51:59
Thanks for the insight into Ortega. THere's a lot the public never gets to
see.
As for Paul Johnson, his PR rating went up several degrees in my book with
his announcement yesterday that police business would be politically
influenced "over my dead body". Admittedly , for one so young, he does show
a lot of common sense, as well as political savvy, a combination sadly
lacking in most politicians.
Message: 75718
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Don Hicks
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 05:57:28
Kid control a "novel" concept? Oh, not too novel. It's been around for at
least a few years. Ever hear of "Train up a child in the wa he should go,
and when he is old he will not depart from it."?
The problem is that we just don't have enough believers any more. Something
about discipline spoiling the little dears' psyche, or some such silly
thing.
Message: 75719
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 07:37:14
> This incident has nothing to do with my changing my mind on
> drugs.
OK. Thought you'd said or implied that the shooting changed your mind. I'm
still glad everyone's okay. Hope the court strings 'em up.
Message: 75720
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Steve/"weed"
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 07:44:44
This recent fashion of blaming behavior on drugs has its historical basis
from my generation when we were told that if we were caught doing something
criminal to claim that we were drunk at the time. That way, the charges that
would be brought against us would not be so severe. I suspect that these
kids, who knew perfectly well what they were doing, used "drug use" as an
excuse for their criminal behavior.
Message: 75721
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff on booze
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 09:12:03
I will have to attest to the fact that Cliffy is indeed a 'pussy cat' while
under the influence. So mellowed out he even let the dogs get on him and
he's allergic! And, it doesn't take very much to get him 'under' either.
*>>> ANN O. <<<*
Message: 75722
Author: $ Michael James
Category: Question?
Subject: Ann
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 10:56:29
Under where?
Message: 75723
Author: $ Steve MacGregor
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Roger/Drug-Excuse
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 15:26:52
I don't think that being under the influence of anything voluntary should
be any part of an excuse for illegal behavior.
If the culprits in the Winters shooting were *not* under the influence of
pot or anything else, then they'd be fully responsible. If they *were*
under the influence, then they got that way voluntarily, and are *still*
fully responsible.
A few public hangings may well be in order here.
We all live in a ....,,,,________nnhn____ yellow subroutine
Message: 75724
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Steve/excuse
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 16:04:13
I wasn't trying to make an excuse for their behavior, but rather cast doubt
on the statement that they were "potheads" and that somehow taking pot
contributed to their alleged commission of this crime.
I totally agree with you that they are fully responsible, no matter what the
circumstances are. I hope they throw the book at 'em, because we, as a
society, cannot tolerate this kind of behavior.
Message: 75725
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Answer!
Subject: Cliff
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 18:38:46
Kid control. Not only a great idea, but why not one that should be
inforced? Don't these parents see that Lazziefaire attitudes in parenting
don't work? I think people should have to be licenced to be able to have
children. Being responsible financially, physically, and emotionally for
another human's well being is the most awesome responsibility I can think of
and yet "they'll let any *$%&@" be a parent (quote taken from _Parenthood_).
I strongly believe in the freedoms of the individual but there must be some
way to check on the responsibility of the individual. Teenagers, for the
most part, are not ready or willing to take on parental responsiblities.
Many older married couples have children without realizing how much
"trouble" it is or feel, from societal peer pressure, that they should have
kids. There are too many abused kids out there. Too many abused people
having kids. Too many people not being responsible. Sometimes I just want
to yell at them to "STOP IT ALREADY" but that hasn't worked so far.
Education? Only if the recepient is willing to learn. Pressure/punishment?
Just look at our overflowing prisons!
Man, I'm starting to get really frustrated...where was I going with this...
Oh, Cliff: I hope that you can go to trial and try to teach this young boys
that what they did is not acceptable and they won't get away with it. If
there's anything I can do (character witness? Cookies for the judge? I
don't know) let me know. This does not change my views on marajuana. I've
done it and handled it responsibly, as a teenager even. This does not
change my views on gun control. The control missing in this situation was
that of the parents to teach their children about the guns in their own home
Message: 75726
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Robber Barons
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 19:44:43
Meanwhile, the government of the United States was
behaving almost exactly as Karl Mrax described a capitalist
state: pretending neutrality to maintain order, but serving
the interests of the rich. Not that the rich agreed among
themselves; they had disputes over policies. But the
purpose of the state was to settle upper-class disputes
peacefully, control lower-class rebellion, and adopt
policies that would further the long-range stability of the
system. The arrangement between Democrats and Republicans
to elect Rutherford Hayes in 1877 set the tone. Whether
Democrats or Republicans won, national policy would not
change in any important way.
When Grover Cleveland, a Democrat, ran for President in
1884, the general impression in the country was that he
opposed the power of monopolies and corporations, and that
the Republican party, whose candidate was James Blaine,
stood for the wealthy. But when Cleveland defeated Blaine,
Jay Gould wired him: "I feel ... that the vast business
interests of the country will be entirely safe in your
hands." And he was right.
One of Cleveland's chief advisors was William Whitney, a
millionaire and corporation lawyer, who married into the
Standard Oil fortune and was appointed Secretary of the
Navy by Cleveland. He immediately set about to create a
"steel navy," buying the steel at artificially high prices
from Carnegie's plants. Cleveland himself assured
industrialists that his election should not frighten them:
"No harm shall come to any business interest as a result of
administrative policy so long as I am President ... a
transfer of executive control from one party to another does
not mean any serious disturbance of existing conditions."
The presidential election itself had avoided real issues;
there was no clear understanding of which interests would
gain and which would lose if certain policies were adopted.
It took the usual form of election campaigns, concealing the
basic similarity of the parties by dwelling on personalities,
gossip, trivialities. Henry Adams, an astute literary
commentator on that era, wrote to a friend about the
election:
We are here plunged in politics funnier than words
can express. Very great issues are involved.... But
the amusing thing is that no one talks about real
interests. By common consent they agree to let these
alone. We are afraid to discuss them. Instead of this
the press is engaged in a most amusing dispute whether
Mr. Cleveland had an illegitimate child and did or did
not live with more than one mistress.
In 1887, with a huge surplus in the treasury, Cleveland
vetoed a bill appropriating $100,000 to give relief to
Texas farmers to help them buy seed grain during a drought.
He said: "Federal aid in such cases ... encourages an
expectation of paternal care on the part of the government
and weakens the sturdiness of our national character." But
that same year, Cleveland used his gold surplus to pay off
wealthy bondholders at $28 above the $100 value of each
bond -- a gift of $45 million.
The chief reform of the Cleveland administration gives
away the secret of reform legislation in America. The
Interstate Commerce Act of 1887 was supposed to regulate the
railroads on behalf of the consumers. But Richard Olney, a
lawyer for the Boston & Maine and other railroads, and soon
to be Cleveland's Attorney General, told railroad officials
who complained about the Interstate Commerce Commission that
it would not be wise to abolish the Commission "from a
railroad point of view." He explained:
The Commission ... is or can be made, of great use to
the railroads. It satisfies the popular clamor for a
government supervision of railroads, at the same time
that that supervision is almost entirely nominal....
The part of wisdom is not to destroy the Commission,
but to utilize it.
Cleveland himself, in his 1887 State of the Union message,
had made a similar point, adding a warning: "Opportunity for
safe, careful, and deliberate reform is now offered; and
none of us should be unmindful of a time when an abused and
irritated people ... may insist upon a radical and sweeping
rectification of their wrongs."
Message: 75730
Author: $ Felix Cat
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 22:05:53
Re: however we are not dropping criminal charges... and neither is the
other guy
You're doing the right thing Cliff. Dropping charges would be a big
mistake. If the kids are under 18, they will just be turned loose. It's a
strange world we live in.
Message: 75731
Author: $ Felix Cat
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 22:12:35
Re: They even boasted that they have kept their son ignorant of guns and
pretend they don't exist.
How can one argue with a mentality like that??
Message: 75732
Author: $ Felix Cat
Category: Answer!
Subject: Don
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 22:13:57
Re: Does anyone know what a _Photon Backscatter_ is?
An electronic back scratcher??
Message: 75733
Author: $ Felix Cat
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rog
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 22:18:02
Re: I hope they throw the book at 'em, because we, as a society, cannot
tolerate this kind of behavior.
Hooray! Roger! We finally agree on something. There's hope for you yet.
Message: 75734
Author: $ Felix Cat
Category: Question?
Subject: Mz. Dee
Date: 06/14/91 Time: 22:19:30
Re: I think people should have to be licenced to be able to have
children.
They do that in Red China don't they?
Message: 75735
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Roger
Date: 06/15/91 Time: 02:33:39
RM> This recent fashion of blaming behavior on drugs has its historical
RM> basis from my generation when we were told that if we were caught doing
RM> something criminal to claim that we were drunk at the time. That way,
RM> the charges that would be brought against us would not be so severe.
There are instances in law (possibly British law) where "being drunk" is a
legally acceptable mitigation of otherwise unacceptable behavior. Trouble
is, we can't have it both ways. We all have an interest in eliminating
dangerous behavior.
There are two schools of thought about this. One says that self-control is
"obviously" reduced by alcohol, drugs and so forth; therefore we ought to
control all of these substances and punish people for using them, so as to
control such irresponsible behavior indirectly. Another school of thought
asks what right we have to control what other people do with their own
bodies.
I incline strongly to the latter view. It's not only less restrictive, but
it gets directly to the point of society's interest in regulating people's
behavior. Drink what you like, smoke what you like, shoot up what you like
(into your veins that is, not other people's trucks). It's your funeral.
But it had better not be anyone else's. Whatever you do -- whether you're
"under the influence" or otherwise -- you're still responsible for it.
Message: 75736
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff
Date: 06/15/91 Time: 02:34:34
>> One of the parents of two of the people involved have already stopped
>> over to talk to us and apologize...
>> The parent of one of the shooters is trying to bully me...
Quite a mixture of attitudes there. With that second attitude, it's hardly
surprising that the kid has no sense of responsibility. I'd be interested
to hear if it was Dad or Mom who thought they could get away with bullying
the opponent. But whichever it was, it's quite clear that the family
culture being passed on to the kid is "do whatever you can get away with,
and if anyone complains, just step on them; they're insignificant." You
can't unteach this attitude in five minutes. The kid is going to run into a
brick wall of disapproval sooner or later. Better sooner than later.
I don't believe for one minute that any kid with an IQ greater than about 70
doesn't realize that guns can kill people. These people are not only a
menace to life (which is the main point), but they're also a menace to the
rest of us who own guns. Or cars. Or voting privileges. Or anything else
potentially dangerous. Because if enough human being prove that they can't
be trusted with something, they give ammunition to those who claim that "the
ordinary mortal can't be trusted with such-and-such a right and it ought to
be taken away." Better to take these *people* away and lock them behind a
high fence where they can't do any damage, and leave the rest of the world
to people who can behave in a responsible manner.
Message: 75737
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Melissa
Date: 06/15/91 Time: 05:20:23
Aside from your views on marijuana use, with which I disagree, that was one
of the finest things you have ever posted on Apollo. Congratulations on a
very mature viewpoint on individual responsibility! I couldn't agree more.
Message: 75738
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Felix' praise
Date: 06/15/91 Time: 08:23:13
And I'm worried.
Message: 75739
Author: $ Wild Barbarian
Category: Answer!
Subject: Ortega and Politics
Date: 06/15/91 Time: 09:03:53
Sure the politicians don't want another Azscam. Wouldn't you like to be
notified of any type of investigation being done on your buddies? And
wouldn't it be nice if you could kill that investigation or tip off your
buddies???? Hmmmm.....I sure would!!!!! I think Ortega has a valid reason
for quitting. Then again, maybe he should consintrate on harrassing us poor
civillians? Aren't politicians (at least in their own minds) a step below
God? I say lets get the ropes out and REALLy find out...Hang em
all....The're all criminals anyway....
Message: 75740
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Apro's postings
Date: 06/15/91 Time: 11:56:56
Well, the ICC wasn't the last "front" of the government. The airlines use
the CAB and others to regulate baggage handling, smoking provisions, and
other things which no individual airline wants to be first to do. "Sorry,
Federal regulations permit no more than one carry-on bag of smaller than
this size."
Message: 75741
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Melissa
Date: 06/15/91 Time: 13:17:07
Re: your statement on some people shouldn't have children, etc. ..."There
must be some way to check on the indivudual" (parent)
The very thought of such a thing as 'checking' makes my spine grow cold.
*>>> ANN O. <<<*
Message: 75742
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Robber Barons
Date: 06/15/91 Time: 23:01:56
Republican Benjamin Harrison, who succeeded Cleveland as
President from 1889 to 1893, was described by Matthew
Josephson, in his colorful study of the post-Civil War
years, *The Politicos*: "benjamin Harrison had the exclusive
distinction of having served the railway corporations in the
dual capacity of lawyer and soldier. He prosecuted the
strikers ((of 1877)) in the federal courts ... and he also
organized and commanded a company of soldiers during the
strike...."
Harrison's term also saw a gesture toward reform. The
Sherman Anti-Trust Act, passed in 1890, called itself "An
Act to protect trade and commerce against unlawful
restraints" and made it illegal to form a "combination or
conspiracy" to restrain trade in interstate or foreign
commerce. Senator John Sherman, author of the Act,
explained the need to conciliate the critics of monopoly:
"They had monopolies ... of old, but never before such
giants as in our day. You must heed their appeal or be
ready for the socialist, the communist, the nihilist.
Society is now disturbed by forces never felt before...."
When Cleveland was elected President again in 1892, Andrew
Carnegie, in Europe, received a letter from the manager of
his steel plants, Henry Clay Frick: "I am very sorry for
President Harrison, but I cannot see that our interests are
going to be affected one way or the other by the change in
administration." Cleveland, facing the agitation in the
country caused by the panic and depression of 1893, used
troops to break up "Coxey's Army," a demonstration of
unemployed men who had come to Washington, and again to
break up the national strike on the railroads the following
year.
Message: 75744
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann to Melissa
Date: 06/16/91 Time: 05:13:54
So what's your solution to the horrendous problem of child abuse, or aren't
you aware of it's malignancy any more than you are aware of the problems of
second hand smoke?
Many, many cases of unbelievable unless you see it child abuse are born of
nothing more nor less than ignorance on the part of people who were never
prepared for parenthood. If you don't believe that, you really should take a
seminar on the subject, as I did several years ago. It's a shocking eye
opener. In my opinion, compulsory training should be a must for all
prospective parents, and especially those who are nothing more than children
themselves.
Message: 75745
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Last
Date: 06/16/91 Time: 06:07:06
I understand Ann's cold spine on this one. I hate the government getting in
to other peoples affairs. However, we are forced to license ourselves to
drive. Having and raising another human being must be more important than
that. The physical part is hell, I've heard, but I would think (and hope)
the hardest is the constant disipline one needs to teach. And the
unconditional love that should follow. I'm just so sick and tired of
hearing about children being abused, even with neglected. Parenting classes
would help, assuming the parents gave a rip. It's just amazing to me how
little people care about things these days.
Welp, I'm off to a motorcycle training class. My last day. I'll tell you
all about it later.
Message: 75746
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Question?
Subject: Phones & Phoenix
Date: 06/16/91 Time: 07:48:30
I heard the other day on the news that come July 15 all metro
Phoenix will be one dial zone or something like that? Does anyone know
more as I only caught part of what was being said. That will be good news
for me if I don't have to keep paying for a ZONE 'A' number.
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 75747
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Politics
Subject: WB's Rantings
Date: 06/16/91 Time: 07:51:02
> Aren't politicians (at least in their own minds) a step below
> God? I say lets get the ropes out and REALLy find out...Hang
> em all....The're all criminals anyway....
Yeah! That's it! Let's take the easy way out and smear a whole class of
individuals. Most of whom are just like you and me. Most of whom really
are interested in doing something to improve our government and our lives.
Let's do everything we can to discourage them from running for public
office.
And, while we're at it, let's do everything we can to further discourage the
apathetic from voting; from making their voices heard. Because as long as
we can continue to narrow the scope of citizens willing to participate in
public affairs at any level the better our chances of getting people we like
in office. People just like us. Cynical. Simplistic. Ignorance is
knowledge! Pass it on!
Message: 75748
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Politics
Subject: Paul-Rating Parents
Date: 06/16/91 Time: 07:51:24
And who's going to set the standards for good parenting, Paul? You? Rod
(who believes the teaching of religion is abuse)?
What's the penalty for getting pregnant if you've flunked the course?
Mandatory abortion? Confiscation of the child?
Who watches out for the rights of the children? One of those state
bureaucracies we all distrust so?
Message: 75749
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Pauley on child
Date: 06/16/91 Time: 09:54:36
Re: compulsory training of prospective parents ... you scare me to!
I think the answer to child abuse would be to find out 'WHY' such things are
so prevelent now. *>>> ANN O. <<<*
Message: 75750
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Phone service
Date: 06/16/91 Time: 11:28:13
I, too, just heard a snippet. I didn't get the impression that it was a
done deal. However, I did hear that the proposal is for the basic service
cost to increase to compensate for the loss in tolls (not completely, I
hope, as TPC will be able to save in call logging and billing costs).
Message: 75751
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Robber Barons
Date: 06/16/91 Time: 13:29:07
Meanwhile, the Supreme Court, despite its look of somber,
black-robed fairness, was doing its bit for the ruling
elite. How could it be independent, with its members chosen
by the President and ratified by the Senate? How could it
be neutral between rich and poor when its members were often
former wealthy lawyers, and almost always came from the
upper class? Early in the nineteenth century the Court laid
the legal basis for a nationally regulated economy by
establishing federal control over interstate commerce, and
the legal basis for corporate capitalism by making
contract sacred.
In 1895 the Court interpreted the Sherman Act so as to
make it harmless. It said a monopoly of sugar refining was
a monopoly in manufacturing, not commerce, and so could not
be regulated by Congress through the Sherman Act (*U.S. v.
E.C. Knight Co.*). The Court also said the Sherman Act
could be used against interstate strikes (the railway strike
of 1894) because they were in restraint of trade. It also
declared unconstitutional a small attempt by Congress to tax
high incomes at a higher rate (*Pollock v. Farmers' Loan &
Trust Company*). In later years it would refuse to break up
the Standard Oil and American Tobacco monopolies, saying the
Sherman Act barred only "unreasonable" combinations in
restraint of trade.
A New York banker toasted the Supreme Court in 1895: "I
give you, gentlemen, the Supreme Court of the United
States -- guardian of the dollar, defender of private
property, enemy of spoliation, sheet anchor of the
Republic."
Very soon after the Fourteenth Amendmant became law, the
Supreme Court began to demolish it as a protection for
blacks, and to develop it as a protection for corporations.
However, in 1877, a Supreme Court decision (*Munn v.
Illinois*) approved state laws regulating the prices charged
to farmers for the use of grain elevators. The grain
elevator company argued it was a person being deprived of
property, thus violating the Fourteenth Amendment's
declaration "nor shall any State deprive any person of life,
liberty, or property without due process of law." The
Supreme Court disagreed, saying that grain elevators were
not simply property but were invested with "a public
interest" and so could be regulated.
One year after that decision, the American Bar
Association, organized by lawyers accustomed to serving the
wealthy, began a national campaign of education to reverse
the Court decision. Its presidents said, at different
times: "If trusts are a defensive weapon of property
interests against the communistic trend, they are desirable."
And: "Monopoly is often a necessity and an advantage."
By 1886, they succeeded. State legislatures, under the
pressure of aroused farmers, had passed laws to regulate the
rates charged farmers by the railroads. The Supreme Court
that year (*Wabash v. Illinois*) said states could not do
this, that this was an intrusion on federal power. That
year alone, the Court did away with 230 state laws that had
been passed to regulate corporations.
By this time the Supreme Court had accepted the argument
that corporations were "persons" and their money was
property protected by the due process clause of the
Fourteenth Amendment. Supposedly, the Amendment had been
passed to protect Negro rights, but of the Fourteenth
Amendment cases brought before the Supreme Court between
1890 and 1910, nineteen dealt with the Negro, 288 dealt with
corporations.
The justices of the Supreme Court were not simply
interpreters of the Constitution. They were men of certain
backgrounds, of certain interests. One of them (Justice
Samuel Miller) had said in 1875: "It is vain to contend with
Judges who have been at the bar the advocates for forty
years of railroad companies, and all forms of associated
capital...." In 1893, Supreme Court Justice David J.
Brewer, addressing the New York State Bar Association, said:
It is the unvarying law that the wealth of the
community will be in the hands of the few.... The
great majority of men are unwilling to endure that long
self-denial and saving which makes accumulation
possible ... and hence it always has been, and until
human nature is remodeled always will be true, that the
wealth of a nation is in the hands of a few, while the
many subsist upon the proceeds of their daily toil.
This was not just a whim of the 1880s and 1890s -- it went
back to the Founding Fathers, who had learned their law in
the era of *Blackstone's Commentaries*, which said: "So
great is the regard of the law for private property, that it
will not authorize the least violation of it; no, not even
for the common good of the whole community."
Message: 75755
Author: Norman Hilty
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: THANK YOU
Date: 06/16/91 Time: 18:30:23
MY NAME IS NORM HILTY, I JUST WANTED TO THANK YOU FOR LOOKING AT
YOUR BBS SYSTEM PLEASE CALL ME AFTER 5:00 I WOULD LIKE TO INROLE.
MY PHONE IS 936-5468 THANK YOU.*
Message: 75756
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Misc.
Date: 06/16/91 Time: 23:28:09
Paul on Marquardt: The hypocrisy and injustice of a system that makes war on
people for having, selling, or smoking a leaf they enjoy;
while the drug warriors themselves can legally enjoy much
more dangerous substances; is a much larger issue to me
than what happens to one 'tokin' judge. I brought up the
issue to comment on the horse manure being shoveled
around by the judge as he claimed to be another helpless
victim of "addiction." He was obviously banking on the
effects of years of silly anti-drug propaganda to help
him skirt the truth about marijuana, himself, and the
system in which he worked.
Cliff on shooting: I'm glad to hear that nobody was hurt and the culprits
were found out. I hope you get full restitution and that
the kids and their parents learn from the experience. I
notice some references to you calling them 'potheads' at
some time, but I can't find the reference. Did you remove
it without comment after it was questioned?
See You Later,
Dean H.
Message: 75757
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: The SYSOP Speaks
Subject: New User
Date: 06/16/91 Time: 23:42:01
Please welcome Dave Bolman as Apollo's newest $tatus user.
Dave is a Macintosh user..... We seem to be getting a number of
Mac users...Hmmmmmm
Anyway, say Hi to David and give him a week or so before you fry
him.
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 75758
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Answer!
Subject: Cliff/phones
Date: 06/17/91 Time: 05:14:15
There is a proposal before the corporation commission that calls for a
consolidation of almost all of the valley, with the exception of BlackCanyon
City and one other. The proposal also calls for a 22% increase in basic
residential rates, and a 25% increase in business rates. What we gain on the
bananas, we lose on the oranges.
There is another very interesting little thing that U.S.West is proposing
to the commission for approval, and that is caller ID. For about $50, plus
$6 per month, you would get a little box next to your phone that would show
the number from which you are being called, and the name of the listed owner
of that number. That could be quite a handy thing to have if you get a lot
of anonymous harrassing calls.
Message: 75759
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Politics
Subject: Bill/parenting
Date: 06/17/91 Time: 05:24:57
Well Bill, for starters, I guess the ones who would set the standards would
be the same committee that started out to design a horse and got a camel.
As to your second question, there would be no failures, or at least no
pregnancies for failures, since chastity belts (with the same committee
holding the locks, of course) would be mandatory for all females until they
have passed the course.
And of course there would have to be another bureaucracy to enforce the
whole concept and watch out for the kids. After all, we still have a little
left after taxes, don't we?
Excuse me, while I get my tongue unstuck from my cheek.
Seriously now, there is, of course, no perfect solution. I do think,
however, that at least some training in the imperfect art of parenthood
would be beneficial in many cases. I remember one case in a child abuse
seminar I took some years ago, in which a mother thought the best way to
potty train her child was to immerse the child's bottom, genitals included,
into a pan of scalding water. Pictures were included for emphasis. Could not
some pre-delivery training have prevented this horror, based on nothing less
than pure ignorance?
If you don't like my suggestions, do you have a viable alternative?
Message: 75760
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Annie
Date: 06/17/91 Time: 05:26:46
We know why, in a good many cases. At least one answer is to abolish
ignorance. Any good suggestions, other than training?
Message: 75761
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: David Bolman
Date: 06/17/91 Time: 05:30:16
Hi David. WElcome to Apollo.
Would you prefer to be fried in butter or non-stick pans?
Hey Cliff! Why do we have to wait a week? Anybody who uses a Mac should be
used to the frying pan!
Message: 75762
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Answer!
Subject: Pauley on parents
Date: 06/17/91 Time: 06:07:50
Re: your ... "Any good suggestions, other than training?"
Yeah - minding one's own business!
You also mentioned .... "We know why, in a good many cases." Ok - tell us.
This is a good subject for us to start up on. Real food for thought.
*>>> ANN O. <<<*
Message: 75763
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: David
Date: 06/17/91 Time: 06:08:44
Welcome David to Apollo - the mildest, sweetest, warmest BBS in the Valley.
Heh heh heh. *>>> ANN O. <<<*
Message: 75764
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Answer!
Subject: Welcome, Norm!
Date: 06/17/91 Time: 07:25:07
Hi, Norm!
Everything you need to know about joining Apollo is in the Main Menu. Try
the <$>tatus command.
Hope you enroll and enjoy the system!
Message: 75765
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: In search of
Subject: Paul-Child Abuse
Date: 06/17/91 Time: 07:25:43
> ...a mother thought the best way to potty train her child was
> to immerse the child's bottom, genitals included, into a pan of
> scalding water.
One of my most important video projects while working for law
enforcement was a series on the detection of child abuse, so I'm well aware
of the dreadful things some parents do to their children.
I cannot believe that mother truly thought that was the best way to
potty-train her child. Common sense dictates that is rubbish! And I'm
surprised you would seize on so feeble a reed for your arguments.
Training and certification is not the solution. In fact, just as
with drug abuse, bank robbery and murder, there is no solution. We can only
hope to catch the individuals inclined to do these things before they do
them and offer whatever we can in the way of treatment or diversion.
Failing that, they should be treated as the criminals they are.
Message: 75766
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: David Bolman
Date: 06/17/91 Time: 08:04:53
Welcome to Apollo. We don't care what kind of computer you use, just your
religious convictions, political leanings, and whether you smoke. :-)
Message: 75767
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Raising Kids
Date: 06/17/91 Time: 08:06:12
We used Dr. Spock's book as a guide.
Message: 75768
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Norm Hilty
Date: 06/17/91 Time: 08:09:55
Welcome to Apollo, Norm. Please join us in any of the discussions you find
amusing or interesting.
Message: 75769
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Tales & Tall Stories
Subject: The Lost Warehouse
Date: 06/17/91 Time: 12:41:04
From the Internet: THE LEGEND OF THE LOST WAREHOUSE
In 1989, Montgomery Ward had a large sale of "discontinued, one-of-a-kind,
and out-of-date merchandise." The reason for this sale is interesting.
Four years earlier, around 1985, Ward's had reprogrammed their master
inventory program. Somehow, the entry for the major distribution warehouse
in Redding, California, was left out. One day the trucks simply stopped
coming. Nothing was brought into the warehouse, and nothing left.
Paychecks for the employees, however, were on a different system, and kept
coming. While this was baffling to the employees, they figured it was
better not to make waves. Rumor has it that they were afraid the warehouse
had been phased out, but the company had "forgotten" to lay them off. They
figured it was better to stay employed. So they went to work every day,
moved boxes around the warehouse, and submitted timecards for three years.
Finally, someone doing an audit wondered why major amounts of merchandise
had simply disappeared. By tracing things back, the missing warehouse was
rediscovered. Ward's was then stuck with an entire warehouse full of white
elephants -- merchandise that was three years out of date. Thus, Ward's
stores throughout California ended up with huge amounts of discontinued
merchandise to sell at deep discounts. Ward's, very embarrassed, played
down how these goods were "found" -- or came to be lost in the first place.
Message: 75770
Author: Gabriel Salas
Category: Bulletins
Subject: HELLO?HELLO?
Date: 06/17/91 Time: 13:19:34
WELL I'VE BEEN OFF THE OLD COMMIE AND IT'S GOO
TO SEE
Message: 75771
Author: Gabriel Salas
Category: In search of
Subject: HELLO?!
Date: 06/17/91 Time: 13:31:48
HE
HELLO PEOPLES IT HARD TO BEEC
BELIEVE THAT THERE IS STILL SOME REALL
BBSING STILL GOING ON .CAN YOU BELIVEVE IT!
AFTER 3 YEARS OFF MY COMMIE AND THE FRIST NUMMBER I CALL A BBS IS UP!
I STIILL IN S
A DAZE OVER THE WHOLE THING! ANYWAYS WHATS GOING ON IN THE OLD COMMIE WOLR
TRY IT A GAIN WORLD.?SORRY ABOUT THE TYPE ERRORS I'M GETTING LINE NOISE.
BUT YOU UNDERSTAND RIGHT?WELL BETTER END THIS MESSAGE HERE .BUT BE FOR I
QUIT ANY W
ONE WITH A COMMIE(COMMODE-COMMODORE) LEAVE ME A SING SIGN THAT I'M NOT ALONE
BPLEASE!
CHAT WITH YA LATTER.
Message: 75772
Author: $ Michael James
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: last
Date: 06/17/91 Time: 14:41:22
I hope Cliff doesn't edit those last two messages.
Message: 75773
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Robber Barons
Date: 06/17/91 Time: 18:03:22
Control in modern times requires more than force, more
than law. It requires that a population dangerously
concentrated in cities and factories, whose lives are filled
with cause for rebellion, be taught that all is right as it
is. And so, the schools, the churches, the popular
literature taught that to be rich was a sign of superiority,
to be poor a sign of personal failure, and that the only way
upward for a poor person was to climb into the ranks of the
rich by extraordinary effort and extraordinary luck.
In those later years after the Civil War, a man named
Russel Conwell, a graduate of Yale Law School, a minister,
and author of best-selling books, gave the same lecture,
"Acres of Diamonds," more than five thousand times to
audiences across the country, reaching several million
people in all. His message was that anyone could get rich
if he tried hard enough, that everywhere, if people looked
closely enough, were "acres of diamonds." A sampling:
I say that you ought to get rich, and it is your duty
to get rich.... The men who get rich may be the most
honest men you find in the community. Let me say here
clearly ... ninety-eight out of one hundred of the rich
men of America are honest. That is why they are rich.
That is why they are trusted with money. That is why
they carry on great enterprises and find plenty of
people to work with them. It is because they are
honest men....
... I sympathize with the poor, but the number of poor
who are to be sympathized with is very small. To
sympathize with a man whom God has punished for his
sins ... is to do wrong.... let us remember there is
not a poor person in the United States who was not made
poor by his own shortcomings....
Conwell was a founder of Temple University. Rockefeller
was a donor to colleges all over the country and helped
found the University of Chicago. Huntington, of the Central
Pacific, gave money to two Negro colleges, Hampton Institute
and Tuskegee Institute. Carnegie gave money to colleges and
to libraries. Johns Hopkins was founded by a millionaire
merchant, and millionaires Cornelius Vanderbilt, Ezra
Cornell, James Duke, and Leland Stanford created
universities in their own names.
The rich, giving part of their enormous earnings in this
way, became known as philanthropists. These educational
institutions did not encourage dissent; they trained the
middlemen in the American system -- the teachers, doctors,
lawyers, administrators, engineers, technicians, politicians
-- those who would be paid to keep the system going, to be
loyal buffers against trouble.
In the mean time, the spread of public school education
enabled the learning of writing, reading, and arithmetic for
a whole generation of workers, skilled and semiskilled, who
would be the literate labor force of the new industrial age.
It was important that these people learn obedience to
authority. A journalist observer of the schools in the
1890s wrote: "The unkindly spirit of the teacher is
strikingly apparent; the pupils being completely subjugated
to her will, are silent and motionless, the spiritual
atmosphere of the classroom is damp and chilly."
Back in 1859, the desire of mill owners in the town of
Lowell that their workers be educated was explained by the
secretary of the Massachusetts Board of Education:
The owners of factories are more concerned than other
classes and interests in the intelligence of their
laborers. When the latter are well-educated and the
former are disposed to deal justly, controversies and
strikes can never occur, nor can the minds of the
masses be prejudiced by demagogues and controlled by
temporary and factious considerations.
Joel Spring, in his book *Education and the Rise of the
Corporate State*, says: "The development of a factory-like
system in the nineteenth-century schoolroom was not
accidental."
This continued into the twentieth century, when William
Bagley's *Classroom Management* became a standard teaching
text, reprinted thirty times. Bagley said: "One who studies
educational theory aright can see in the mechanical routine
of the classroom the educative forces that are slowly
transforming the child from a little savage into a creature
of law and order, fit for the life of a civilized society."
It was in the middle and late nineteenth century that high
schools developed as aids to the industrial system, that
history was widely required in the curriculum to foster
patriotism. Loyalty oaths, teacher certification, and the
requirement of citizenship were introduced to control both
the educational and political quality of teachers. Also, in
the latter part of the century, school officials -- not
teachers -- were given control over textbooks. Laws passed
by the states barred certain kinds of textbooks. Idaho and
Montana, for instance, forbade textbooks propagating
"political" doctrines, and the Dakota territory ruled that
school libraries could not have "partisan political
pamphlets or books."
Message: 75777
Author: $ Wild Barbarian
Category: Answer!
Subject: phones
Date: 06/17/91 Time: 23:22:25
Hi Cliff....guess it has been a while since I have posted....School has been
keeping me really busy....Thank goodness this is my LAST week. Starting
Thursday I am on a 3 week break!!!!! YEAH!!! I need it.
About the phone service, I heard that we were going to no LD with the
greater Phoenix area in Sept '92. Why then I don't know, unless it is to
allow the phone company a little longer to rip us off....
later
Message: 75778
Author: $ Wild Barbarian
Category: Answer!
Subject: I hear you
Date: 06/17/91 Time: 23:27:15
complaining. But that is about it. What do you suggest we do to get the
people out and be heard????? Got an answer for me..... Before you accuse
me of ranting, you should look at your self first. Hmmmm....so most
politicians are like you and me?????? How can you make such an ignorant
statement ( See I can use big words too)? I have never know a poor
politician. They are elected to uphold our trust. When they don't we
SHOULD start to look at them.... And I have news for ya, ignorance is NOT
knowledge, even if you wish it to be so.
Message: 75779
Author: $ Wild Barbarian
Category: Answer!
Subject: telephone service
Date: 06/17/91 Time: 23:29:06
fees are supposed to go up $10 to $12. Forgot to mention it in my last
post.
Message: 75780
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Annie/parenting
Date: 06/18/91 Time: 05:31:12
"Minding one's own business" translates into "not getting involved", and
that lack of concern has caused the death of many abused children that could
have been prevented. That, my dear, is no solution.
Why are children abused? We could come up with reasons for hours, possible,
but if one area was eliminated, probably 80-90% of abuse cases could be
turned around before they occur.That area? Ignorance. Pure, simple ignorance
on the part of people totally unprepared for the rigors and frustrations of
child rearing. We have both raised enough kids to remember the frustrations
that occur when situations arise that we were not fully prepared to handle.
Even the simple things, like the baby messing a diaper within seconds of a
change can be upsetting. A baby's crying when they can't tell you why can be
one of the most frustrating experiences of young parenthood. If a parent has
not been made aware of the proper way to handle situations as they arise, or
if, as in many cases these days, the parent is little more than a child
herself and not nearly mature enough to handle the awesome responsibility of
parenthood, you have the perfect setup for child abuse.
Then, of course, we have the all to often demonstrated axiom that an abused
child will grow up into a child abuser. Again, the source here is ignorance,
first on the part of the original parent, and repeated in the life of the
child who grows up thinking that this abusive lifestyle is the norm.
The primary cure for this stigma on society is still education. Whether it
is ever made compulsory or not probably depends on just how serious we are
as a nation about dealing with the problem.
Message: 75781
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bill/abuse
Date: 06/18/91 Time: 05:38:07
See my message to Ann.
My statement (on the mother who thought the immersion was the best way to
potty train) was probably a poor choice of words on my part. The event did
happen, however. No doubt out of frustration and lack of preparation for the
responsibilities of parenthood, along with a lack of the maturity necessary
to raise a child. Much child abuse (and I do mean MUCH!) comes during the
toilet training of the child. THese are trying times, indeed, and a source
of much frustration and exasperation for a parent not really ready for
parenthood. Training and certification may not be THE answer, but it sure
wouldn't hurt! I agree with you, there is no single solution to the problem,
but that knowledge should not deter us from trying every avenue of
prevention we can to assure children of their right to grow up as well
adjusted, loved and unabused people.
Message: 75782
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Dr. Spock
Date: 06/18/91 Time: 05:40:15
Probably the ruination of a generation. A system that the doctor himself
repudiated in later years, when he realized what monsters he created.
Message: 75783
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: War!
Subject: Paul/Spock
Date: 06/18/91 Time: 07:42:52
Oh yes, my children aged 22 and 24 are monsters. One has a BS in mathematics
and is working on the Mars space probe and the other is a junior at ASU in
the Nursing program.
Message: 75784
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: On the Lighter Side
Subject: Last
Date: 06/18/91 Time: 07:56:34
Kinda turns your stomach, don't it.
Message: 75785
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Politics
Subject: WB FUMES
Date: 06/18/91 Time: 07:57:02
> [I'd include a quote here, but I can't find much of anything
> coherent that summarizes your reply to me.]
If you'd do something besides bluster and harangue, perhaps we could have an
interesting discussion on this subject.
> What do you suggest we do to get the people out and be heard?
Stop repeating and lending credence to the cries of a commercialized
media that feeds on our fears and blood lust.
> Before you accuse me of ranting, you should look at your self
> first. ... ignorance is NOT knowledge, even if you wish it to
> be so.
I was parodying you. Sorry you missed the point. I'll try to be
less subtle in the future.
> I have never know a poor politician. They are elected to
> uphold our trust.
What do these have to do with one another?
> How can you make such an ignorant statement ( See I can use big
> words too)?
These are big words?
Message: 75786
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: In search of
Subject: Abusing Paul
Date: 06/18/91 Time: 07:57:32
> ...in many cases these days, the parent is little more than a
> child herself and not nearly mature enough to handle the
> awesome responsibility of parenthood...
Better make that HIMself, too, Paul. :)
I think you've hit the nail right on the head. And, it seems, we're
seeing more and more immature people of ALL ages these days. Unfortunately,
training and education have little to do with developing maturity. Maybe
some kind of "family life" classes should be added to high school (junior
high?) curriculum. I wonder what other class we should drop to make room;
perhaps math, science, English?
Message: 75787
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Pauley on parenting
Date: 06/18/91 Time: 08:58:12
I don't think it's any government, organization, club or what have you -
responsibility to educate you, me or anyone on how to raise a child. The
only responsibility I see is of the parents - in teaching their children on
raising their own and most importantly, to live as an example.
Child abuse has always been around, but I truly think it's more prevalent
today than in the past. Why? If I knew that I could solve the problem, but I
do think that our society is partly to blame. We still have the ideas about
love, marriage and having babies - goals! Yet, we just got through with a
phase called the 'me generation' (I hope its over) where the individual came
first over all others - where marriage is considered temporary and maybe the
second or third one will stick - divorce is as common as the sun coming up!
Not only that, but the way our economy is, both married people MUST work to
put a roof over their heads. No one is staying home with the kids and
teaching them anything. It seems that people are more concerned with their
sex lives, careers, material good looks and possessions, than their kids.
We have, as a society, rebelled against sexual restraints, discrimination of
any sort, et al - but of course, being the human's that we are, we went a
tad overboard. Getting back a bit (only! I'd hate to give up all things) to
the basics would help I believe. To live by example, not force others to do
what you think is right. I don't know how we can handle both parents
working, but in my reasoning, it stands to reason that one of them should
stay home at least until the kids start to school and even then, try to be
home by the time the kid comes home. A kid can't raise themselves and learn
too much! This is my opinion only, I really don't know the answer.
Message: 75788
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Pauley
Date: 06/18/91 Time: 09:04:47
Re: your .... "there is no single solution to the problem, but that
knowledge should not deter us from trying every avenue of prevention we can
assure children of their right to grow up ....."
'Every avenue of prevention???' If that is the case, then every child should
be taken away from it's parents at birth and raised by the state. If I'm not
mistaken, Hitler did just that and was highly seccessful too! All those
little kiddies the Nazi's raised turned out EXACTLY as he wanted them too -
they were all well behaved and fit into society perfectly and did EXACTLY
what they were told. Pillers of that society! Perfect humans!
*>>> ANN O. <<<*
Message: 75789
Author: $ Michael James
Category: Answer!
Subject: Roger
Date: 06/18/91 Time: 10:29:46
What does that have to do with whether they're monsters or not?
Message: 75790
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: On the Lighter Side
Subject: 75784
Date: 06/18/91 Time: 10:40:48
Makes me wonder where we went wrong. After re-reading what I said, I was
struck by the oxymoron of calling 22 and 24 year-old adults children.
Message: 75791
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Child Abuse/Ann
Date: 06/18/91 Time: 10:46:49
I think part of it is that child abuse is getting more media attention and
is being reported more often than in the past. I suspect that these kinds of
things have always happened, but that the victims had no recourse but to
take the punishment. So, I think we have become more aware of the problem.
On the other hand, we could blame the Republicans since they have held the
Presidential office for over ten years and the rate of child abuse has
soared during these administrations.
Or we could blame fundamentalists. A recent poll had an astounding number of
people who say they have been born again. Something like 70 percent. This
increase in born-again Christians could account for the increase in child
abuse. How ? I don't have the foggiest idea. But it IS suspicious isn't it ?
Message: 75792
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Answer!
Subject: Michael
Date: 06/18/91 Time: 10:48:03
And they are well behaved also.
Message: 75793
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: Politics
Subject: Robber Barons
Date: 06/18/91 Time: 18:00:23
Against this gigantic organization of knowledge and
education for orthodoxy and obedience, there arose a
literature of dissent and protest, which had to make its way
from reader to reader against great obstacles. Henry
George, a self-educated workingman from a poor Philadelphia
family, who became a newspaperman and an economist, wrote a
book that was published in 1879 and sold millions of copies,
not only in the United States, but all over the world. His
book *Progress and Poverty* argued that the basis of wealth
was land, that this was becoming monopolized, and that a
single tax on land, abolishing all others, would bring
enough revenue to solve the problem of poverty and equalize
wealth in the nation. Readers may not have been persuaded
of his solutions, but they could see in their own lives the
accuracy of his observations:
It is true that wealth has been greatly increased,
and that the average of comfort, leisure and refinement
has been raised; but these gains are not general. In
them the lowest class do not share.... This
association of poverty with progress is the great
enigma of our times.... There is a vague but general
feeling of disappointment; an increased bitterness
among the working classes; a widespread feeling of
unrest and brooding revolution.... The civilized world
is trembling on the verge of a great movement. Either
it must be a leap upward, which will open the way to
advances yet undreamed of, or it must be a plunge
downward which will carry us back toward barbarism....
A different kind of challange to the economic and social
system was given by Edward Bellamy, a lawyer and writer from
western Massachusetts, who wrote, in simple, intriguing
language, a novel called *Looking Backward*, in which the
author falls asleep and wakes up in the year 2000, to find a
socialistic society in which people work and live
cooperatively. *Looking Backward*, which described
socialism vividly, lovingly, sold a million copies in a few
years, and over a hundred groups were organized around the
country to try to make the dream come true.
It seemed that despite the strenuous efforts of government,
business, the church, the schools, to control their thinking,
millions of Americans were ready to consider harsh criticism
of the existing system, to contemplate other possible ways
of living. They were helped in this by the great movements
of workers and farmers that swept the country in the 1880s
and 1890s. These movements went beyond the scattered
strikes and tenants' struggles of the period 1830-1877.
They were nationwide movements, more threatening than
before to the ruling elite, more dangerously suggestive.
It was a time when revolutionary organizations existed in
major American cities, and revolutionary talk was in the
air.
Message: 75796
Author: $ Steve MacGregor
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff/Phones
Date: 06/18/91 Time: 19:16:19
Yes, I read that part in the paper about most of the Phoenix metro area
being one dialing area. It makes sense. Telephone technology these days
makes the small zones an anachronism.
The Caller-ID option sounds great.
From some discussions of phone technology on another board, it appears
that the caller's phone-number is already transmitted to your phone before
the ring signal, but none of our phones does anything with the information
yet. Someone who knows what he's doing could build nearly as good a box
himself, if that's true, and forgo the $6/month charge (though he might end
up with only the caller's number, and not his name).
Imagine a BBS that could look into the ID-box when a call comes in, in
order to check up on strange people who log in under multiple names!
We all live in a ....,,,,________nnhn____ yellow subroutine
Message: 75797
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Question?
Subject: USA Today
Date: 06/18/91 Time: 20:31:15
Did anybody get today's issue? I'd like the full-page thing on Scientology
(or more, if there is). Send me some mail if you have it and we'll work out
some way for me to get it. Thanks.
Message: 75798
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: The SYSOP Speaks
Subject: New (old) User?
Date: 06/18/91 Time: 21:12:14
Please welcome Paul Carelli as Apollo's newest (old) user.
Paul was once a regular member of Apollo untill he vanished in 1985.
Well, he's BAAAAAAAACK!
P.S. Paul no longer has his Atari, he now is a IBM Clone user....
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 75799
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Steve/Phones
Date: 06/18/91 Time: 21:22:41
Yea, someone in the police department told me that info is already
there (The Phone Number) and all we need is the right hardware to read it.
I was not sure of his info, but hearing it from you may give me something to
think about.
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 75800
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Question?
Subject: Nick
Date: 06/19/91 Time: 02:09:44
If marijuana makes people more agreeable, but dumber then what does alcohol
do along those lines?
Message: 75801
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: News Today
Subject: V-A-C-A-T-I-O-N, 1-4
Date: 06/19/91 Time: 02:28:48
My Vacation, by Rod Williams
Each year I take some sort of vacation in order to relieve the repetition
of everyday life. Some are planned and some are not. This one was not.
This year's vacation, beginning Friday evening last, I embarked on my trip
which took me to death's door and back again. It was a remarkable and
refreshing experience, one I will not soon forget.
The first sign that something different was occurring began when a tooth's
nerve shot my brain a loud message. "Ouch", I said. From then on it only
became worse. By Saturday afternoon all I could do was to lie still and
try to make friends with the pronounced rhythm of the pain. My whole jaw
was aching and gargling with salt water only helped a little.
We have a family dentist, a very good man but I knew he took weekends off
the same as I, so I did not want to take him away from his family during his
precious off hours. I felt that I could hold out until Monday when I would
make an appointment, less than 48 hours away.
By Saturday evening my mouth felt like it was on fire and I was noticeably
weaker than when this episode began. I had some 2 year old Empirin
Compound #3 (3 grains codeine) in my medicine cabinet from a previous
experience so I took one of the six remaining in the bottle. It helped.
During the long night between fits of sleep and wakefulness I took several
more, being sure not to take them closer than four hours apart. Several
times I sat bolt upright in bed and my mouth felt like World War III was
being waged. I wondered how severe the pain would have been without the
help of the pills.
The pain was so intense that I considered trying to find someone who had
cocaine but it was the middle of the night and I gave up on this idea. I
thought about using my small vice-grip pliers to yank my tooth out. I
thought about tying a string around my tooth and the other end around an
anvil that I have then dropping the anvil in order to remove my tooth. I
thought of all sorts of things but basically I just laid or sat in pain
waiting for Monday to come.
My tooth was so sensitive that just to lightly touch it with my tongue
would cause pain to well up. But by this time it was my gum area that was
tender as an abscess was in the works.
Sunday morning, 7:30 A.M. I again woke up from the severity of the pain and
went and sat at my desk. I knew I had another day to go but I couldn't
imagine how I would be able to handle it.
All of a sudden I felt dizzy and the room began to spin. I was feeling
hot so while Jasmine was up somewhere in the house and the rest of the
family slept I went to my bed, turned on a fan, laid down and took my shirt
off. Everything after that happened very fast. I began to feel very cold,
my body was now profusely sweating and that fan was making it worse. I
barely remember crawling out of bed to turn it off but I felt I must. I
realized that I was going into shock so I put my pillow under my heels and
covered up with my blanket but I was still very cold.
My mind was spinning and my body was squirming on the bed and I realized
that death wasn't far off. I wanted my wife to come but there was no way
to call her as I could not speak or navigate myself to her.
I was not afraid. I got to a point where all pain left me and I felt
absolutely peaceful. Nothing hurt, no aches, pains, or worries were with
me. A great feeling.
I then heard my wife say, "Oh, you don't look good at all." She had
walked in while I was dying and I was glad. I wasn't afraid to die, I
remember thinking how neat and peaceful and easy it all was but I thought
the timing inappropriate since I have some little children in my charge and
what difficulties this event would cause.
I did not want a bunch of paramedics to come over so I fought away the
thick cloud and said, "I'll be okay", "Get me another pillow for my feet
and another blanket, I'm cold."
I knew I was coming out of shock when the pain started returning. I knew
I was getting (sic) better when I could feel the throb of my aching mouth.
My wife phoned our dentist at his home and he immediately called in a
prescription for Penicillin and some pain tablets. I've taken the
Penicillin on schedule but no longer have need for the codeine. He did
caution me to use cold rather than hot in or near my mouth area.
Today is the first day I've had energy to get up and about. I see the
dentist tomorrow about my tooth.
About my near death experience, it was truly great, making me see close up,
once again, like a refresher course, how easy and fun death can be.
Rod
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