Apollo BBS Archive

Apollo BBS Archive - June 27, 1990


Mail from Randy Sanders
Date: 06/27/90  Time: 20:24:51

When I switch Hands I gain a Stroke!
No I haven't heard from Sue I guess I might give a Call tonight
Put in a good Word for If you see her (don't tell her anything TRUE tho)
Where are these Asinine Deabates at anyway? I didn't know I could get
involved without $$$ first. I think this next PAYDAY is only (2) more
working days in the Life away I will be able to cough up the $$$ to be
tracking. Keep cool that is a JOB in itself nowadays. Say "HI" to Melody for
me I will call You probably Thursday night about 9-10. I got my LISP
routines published in the Cad Institue Designer (My Alma Mother) today. That
sure made my DAY. o well I am working on some MENUs for the AutoCad BBS so
got to go. bye -randy

[A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
 1:Way to go about being published.  
 2:
 3:Yes, you can get involved in any debate on the Main Board without having 
 4:$tatus.  Just keep track of the last message you read and start from there 
 5:when you log on again.  It's easy but $tatus, and a bargain price of $12. is
 6:better.
 7:
 8:See ye around motherfucker.
 9:

Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 66980
Author: $ John Cummings
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jeff B./animals
Date: 06/26/90  Time: 21:51:32

        Do you allow that there IS or MIGHT BE an essential difference
between man and animal?  (Essential:of the essence of the being.) If so,
what is that difference, if not the ability to reason? I'm willing to grant
that in all other aspects, man is, indeed, an animal.   --John C.--
On G.K> Cesterton, there is a great new biography of him.  I bought it, but
loaned it to a friend, and he never returned it.  I'll try to track down the
title of it for next posting opportunity.

Message: 66981
Author: $ John Cummings
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jeff B./ English
Date: 06/26/90  Time: 21:53:13

        "Between" denotes only two.  If a common thread runs from one to a
second to a third, it runs AMONG them.     --John C.--

Message: 66982
Author: Jeff Lochansky
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Shades/J.Beck
Date: 06/26/90  Time: 22:53:18

Yes I shure do, I blind myself sometimes. Must be envy to even make such a
remark. Have you ever felt so good that you just had to tell the world about
it? I venture to say no.Yes I am exstremly proud of myself, because for me
that is my biggest acomplishment in years. After years of having nothing but
bad luck all around, I just had one of the best days of my life,and reading
your post might just have ruined it, thanks. It shure is a sad day when
somebody as envious as you has to ruin a luckless persons one good day in
years. Lets make you blind.
Not only did they offer me the school, any school of my choosing, but any
profession I wanted. Want to get even blinder?
I had to take test, a lot of them, and I was told that I had the highest
scores in of any applicant for the program in years.
Lets blind you totally.
I'm going to go to the most expensive school in Az and take their most
expensive courses and get my bacholors in science, and I'll do it for free,
because I have the ability and intelligence to do it.
Can you still see Jeff B.?
If not ask me for more bright light, I'll gladky give you more.
Disclaimer to the rest of the good folks on apollo:
I did not wish to blow my own horn, but the guy just ruined the best day in
my life with that remark and I could not help myself but to let him have it.
The only reason I posted my original post on Apollo, is because I couldn't
aford to call home to germany and let my folks know, and I just had to tell
anybody, i didn't care, So Sorry  THE MAD MAX

Message: 66983
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Mad Max
Date: 06/27/90  Time: 00:01:17

        Congrats on your good fortune Mr Mad Max....  I wish you well, and
am for one glad you posted your news on Apollo.   You need NOT be SORRY, but
stand tall and be PROUD!

                        clif-

Message: 66984
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Answer!
Subject: Jeff Lochansky
Date: 06/27/90  Time: 00:23:55

Great going there!
I know first-hand how frustrating the VA can get. 
Well well well. Hey, you asked earlier about some input.
Well, here it is for all it's worth.
ASU yes DeVry No.
I have been asked before why I will not hire anyone from DeVry.
The reason is because in the 10 years I've been messing around
in this State (and some of it out) I have not once run into a graduate
from there that was capable of doing his job. That's not to say there
arent any. At one point, it was so bad that most of the shops in town
that had anything to do with Electronics period, would not take a
DeVry graduate. That's why they place such a heavy emphasis on out
of state placement.
Too many of these places I have been with had some not-so-nice things
to say about their experiences with an EX employee from DeVry.
ASU will be a much more respected source of Education and by far
worth more to you as an individual. That's my two cents worth.
As an employer ,  if I had the choice between a person from DeVry and
a person from ASU, both with a BA in science in electronics, I'll take
the ASU student *ANYDAY* and I bet if you asked succinctly around that
you wil get the same response from an overwhelmming majority of
employers.
                -Mike
Congrats!

Message: 66985
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: News Today
Subject: YOUR A/C SURVIVAL
Date: 06/27/90  Time: 00:41:29

Here's a little help for you swelters out there who may or may not have
problems with your A/C unit.
If your A/C suddenly kicks off but the fan still runs (blowing hot
air) then there is a couple things you can do before you call
out an A/C man who will not only be sure to charge you good and proper,
but will be quite some time because of the numerous...and I do mean
****** numerous ****** calls the A/C companies have been getting.
 (1) Get up on the roof and look for a hole in the panels that may or
     may not have "RESET" marked nearby. 
     a) Using a PLASTIC or other NON-conductive tool, push the switch
        in. This is your HEADER PRESSURE overload switch. It will go
        off in this kind of heat. AC units were never designed to handle
        120 degree + (plus) weather. If your unit *does not* pop off
        feel both thankful and worried at the same time. Reason is that
        you most likely have a low charge in your system. Of course, if
        your unit is less than 5 years old it shouldn't be too bad.
 (2) Another reason for the AC to blow hot air is because the compressor
        went out on internal overload. (Too HOT). The unit will continue
        to blow hot air for about 1 hour or so and then (most units)
        will turn itself back on again. Be patient if you see that the
        header pressure is NOT sprung. 
        
The most likely time for the A/C to kick off on header pressure is
just after it cycles on. That's when the outside coils have the
hottest freon. The pressure builds up because the motor is trying to
fight that heat build-up in the return air.
 
The third most common reason for the Header pressure switch to kick
out is due to a failure of the outside coil fan. (Not the squirrel
cage fan that blows your air inside...). If this outside fan
is not spinning, the pressure will build up BIG time. It wont work.
Make sure that the outside fan turns on when and if you need to
reset the pressure breaker. If it doesn't spin then call an AC
service guy out to replace it and don't accept any B.S. about your
compressor.
 
If your unit keeps kicking off on the pressure switch..there is a way
to help it along. It's called the Hose trick. But you must be very
careful to ensure water does not get into the fan motor!
The best way to do this is to go up on your roof with a jug of water.
reset the A/C...now slowly..**SLOWLY** sprinkle some water over the
outside surface of the coils. This will help keep the header pressure
down while it fights to cool off your house. If you can keep it going
for about 10 minutes, chances are it will stay on.
I don't recommend any of you OLD FARTS doing this because the roof is
no place to lose balance or faint because of heat exhaustion!

The water over the outside-coils trick should be a last resort.
You can spray a fine mist safely over the coils and achieve the
desired results from the ground using a nozzle on your hose.
Too much water into the coils will be sucked through into the fan
motor. Not only can this cause you grief in the form of the
fan shorting out but within a week your fan motor will cease working
because the bearings would have rusted up!
(NOTE: I'm *not* talking about swamp coolers).
Other hazards of water mixing with the A/C should be obvious. Most
units are run off 220VAC. That stuff will fry you dead or maim you
in a very memorable and painful manner.
One of the most common things an A/C serviceman will do with a customer
who keeps calling them out is to jumper that pressure switch out.
I don't recommend *anyone* doing it unless you're prepared to buy
a new A/C unit in case the internal overload fails to work on your
compressor. (Chances are very unlikely it will fail, but there's still
the need to say this!)
What this does for you is minimizes your trips to the roof and the amount
of sweat on your brow. The A/C will only kick off if it gets so extreeme
that the internal overload will pop. (As I explained, *MOST* units , 99%
of them will self-reset when they cool off).
So don't get boondoggled by hungry A/C service companies that, belive me,
make a *GRAND* killing in these summer months.
                        -Mikey

Message: 66988
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Cummings/66980
Date: 06/27/90  Time: 05:17:06

John, evidently you have not been reading my messages.  In my last one to
you, I suggested that there are essential differences between any pair of
species you can name.  I also suggested that while manthought is probably
different from apethought, and while apethought is at a less developed stage
along *its* lines than is manthought along *its* lines, it is entirely
inaccurate to state that the ability to reason -- any ability to reason to
any degree in any manner -- is unique to man.  This "essence of the being"
claptrap strikes me as rather mystical in character, and perhaps explains
the nature of your problem: you are inclined to seek qualities which isolate
and somehow elevate man above all other living creatures.  I'm strongly
surprised that you haven't started talking about souls -- men no doubt
having them and animals (poor brutes) sadly lacking.  Do you not believe
that this is so?

Message: 66989
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Cummings/between
Date: 06/27/90  Time: 05:27:47

From Webster's New Twentieth Century Unabridged Dictionary:
 
between
 
1.  in or through the space that separates two things.
2.  in or of the time, amount, or degree that seperates two things;
intermediate to; as between green and blue.
3.  seperating
4.  connecting; relating; as a bond *between* friends.
5.  by the action of both of; as *between* them they landed the fish.
6.  by the combined possession of; as, the men had fifty dollars *between*
them.
 
There are other definitions, but I think that these suffice to demonstrate
that, as in the more general meanings of numbers three, four, and six, the
word "between" is not limited to the narrow sense which you ascribed to it.
 
If you're going to be pedantic, you ought at least to be correct.

Message: 66990
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Lochansky
Date: 06/27/90  Time: 05:29:12

It was an allusion to a song, you muttonhead.

Message: 66991
Author: Hans Glans
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: AC
Date: 06/27/90  Time: 07:16:26

Of course, it is good to precool your house before it gets so hot the AC has
a hard time exchanging the heat outside.

Message: 66993
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Roger
Date: 06/27/90  Time: 10:51:06

I too am a Star Trek fan, but have never been able to get involved in the
new one on TV. Do you like it? If so, why? Maybe I'm missing something.
                            -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 66994
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rod/black holes
Date: 06/27/90  Time: 12:17:23

I'll see if I can dig up the math.

Message: 66995
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: ann/STNG
Date: 06/27/90  Time: 12:23:39

I like it. It's not the same as the old ST. I think the situation is more
"realistic". That is the commander of the Starship Enterprise should not
be beaming down to every two-bit world that has some strange phenomena. The
situations are less gee-whiz, also. There are real worlds with real
political problems and situations which call for wisdom on the part of 
Picard. I like it because he is faced with situations that are ambiguous and
difficult to figure out.

Message: 66996
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Politics
Subject: Daryl/IRS
Date: 06/27/90  Time: 18:22:29

  Thanks for noticing, I was beginning to wonder if everyone sided with the
IRS from the lack of comment.
   See You Later,
      Dean H.

Message: 66997
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rod/animals
Date: 06/27/90  Time: 18:34:38

  So it boils down to your preferring animals because they are all atheists
and you ignore anything and everything which demonstrates that mankind is a
more advanced and capable species than those which never rise above their
natural state in untold generations of life. The dog of today lives the same
life, and has the same skills as the dog of thousands of years ago. The only
difference in their lives is that introduced by man.
   See You Later,
      Dean H.
p.s.(I just bet you wish you were covered with fur when it is over 120
degrees. Take a look at a dog or cat. They are laying down and panting as
hard as they can.)

Message: 66998
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Animals
Date: 06/27/90  Time: 18:37:16

   Is it a contradiction to acknowledge that rights are a product of 
the mind, and yet declare them to be so important and basic to human 
nature that we must fight to keep them unfettered to the greatest 
degree possible? I think not.
   Rights, as I am speaking of them, must be mutually given in order 
to be based in reality. If I grant myself the 'right' to steal and 
kill, and grant you no such 'right', then we have no basis for 
agreement and neither of us will respect any 'right' claimed by the 
other. This will, in effect, leave both of us with no rights. 
   An animal that does not have the capability of entering into a 
mutual rights arrangement is much like a human who has demonstrated 
an inability or unwillingness to respect the rights of others. This 
human's rights are reduced, possibly to the point where incarceration 
or death become allowable, because the implied contract from which 
those rights arose has been breached. In a case where the criminal is 
so evil and dangerous that rejoining human society is out of the 
question, the convict still has some protections but they become more 
a  matter of custom than contract. They are determined more by what 
actions other people will tolerate against the criminal than by any 
trait the criminal possesses.

   The treatment of animals is likewise a matter of custom, 
determined by what people will tolerate at a given time. The animal 
is quite unaware if we decide that he is people too and now has some 
degree of rights. It may still violate the rights of everything that 
is its natural prey, or gets in its way, or competes with it for food.
   Animal treatment customs may well change so that animals are no 
longer used as food, clothing, pets, or experimental animals. That is 
certainly a valid area for discussion, but to misname these customs 
of human behavior toward animals as 'rights' possessed by the animals 
is erroneous. If we give the mountain lion the right to go unhunted, 
then we must also give that right to the deer, which means that the 
mountain lions, along with all other predators, will have to be 
incarcerated for life and fed on tofu or soymeal.
   If there are other species sentient enough to knowingly merge into 
our world of rights by agreement, then let us welcome them. If not, 
then let us treat them as well as we can by custom, because it is we 
who must judge ourselves in this area.

Message: 67000
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rights
Date: 06/27/90  Time: 18:44:35

  The despot who violates the rights which man na{urally req{_uires to live
as a man and not an animal gives up any claim to rights in doing so. He must
be resisted by force, which is obvious. The fact that human rights are a
mutual agreement not to use fraud and coercion against each other in return
for being free of them does not change the fact that rights have to be
secured by force when necessary, regardless of what is considered as source.
   See You Later,
      Dean H.

Message: 67001
Author: Randy Sanders
Category: Tales & Tall Stories
Subject: Mno
Date: 06/27/90  Time: 20:37:08

'and,...and...' she said, 'so what of It?' she asked Inquiringly
'You're as dumb as a Dog,' he said, 'and almost as big as a cow, too.'
on the Raw Score it is only Person to Person.
Social Disturbance among People, They Say. It happens, They Say.
well, a Slur. I guess, he said. smelling like a sardine. The two of You have
more in common than I do.
well, he said. pulling his own Leg tasting somewhat like a Cod. That's the
way it Is. First I meet Someone & then Infinity imposes. O well, he said,
chewing upon a bit of Hamster. It is not all that Bad. sometimes one has to
do what one must.
It hasn't been very convincing. not this Lately. What does It take to find
one's a Friend and a Lover? an Arm and a Leg?
Maybe it does.
'Please', .....he drawled along. 'Please', he said. 'Please pass the Salt'.

Message: 67002
Author: Randy Sanders
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ed Sheridan
Date: 06/27/90  Time: 20:43:04

give me a call sometime if You want a Site Plan of your House drawn up.
I got my CAD up & running. Ask Taylor if she still wants "to do lunch"
nothing elaborate you know. -randy

Message: 67003
Author: $ John Cummings
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Mad Max/school
Date: 06/27/90  Time: 20:58:12

        Hell, yes, Jeff, well done! Ich gratuliere! Du hast es gemacht, und
gut gemacht! You've proved that you have the stuff to do it, so go for it!
Get that degree, and stand tall and proud, as Clif said.  My very best
wishes to you.  Wenn wir noch in Deutschland waere, wuerde ich Blumen
schicken. Das geht aber nicht in Amerika--so, congratulations!!--John C.--

Message: 67004
Author: $ John Cummings
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jeff/Man
Date: 06/27/90  Time: 21:13:31

        I'm afraid we're not communicating with the same language, Jeff.
When I say there is an ESSENTIAL difference between man and beast, I mean
just that.  You have confused the discussion by stating that there are
essential differences between any two species, then by denying that when you
imply that the development of "apethought along its lines" is at a less
developed stage than "manthought." My position is that the ONLY difference
between man and ape (or any other animal) is the ability of human reason. If
a being has that ability, he is human and therefore distinctly, essentially,
actually, different from the beast. This does not argue superiority or
kingship or any such thing. It simply marks difference. My position is that
apes or orangs or chimps will NEVER, and CAN NEVER develop rational thought,
because they are not human, and rational thought is a mark of humanity. You
may argue, as did Teilhard de Chardin, that the evolution of ape to human
was the development of rational thought. This may be, and it fits my
argument. But apes cannot be people; they can't reason.  --John C.--

Message: 67005
Author: $ John Cummings
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jeff/English
Date: 06/27/90  Time: 21:20:20

        Please re-read Webster, and I recommend the OED as well--the "tween"
of "between" relates to the old english meaning "two." Your suggestion of
Meaning Six of your Webster  needs only the comparison: do you prefer, "the
three men had fifty dollars between them" or "the three men had fifty
dollars among them'? Or the obverse: between two or among two?  The "more
general 
meanings of three, four, and six, still do not support a broader meaning of
the word.

Message: 67006
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Roger/captains
Date: 06/27/90  Time: 21:38:35

Yes, but at least Kirk was a man's man.  Who the deuce can respect an
underweight bald man with a pointed head, running around the galaxy in an
ill-fitting jumpsuit?  

Message: 67007
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Cummings
Date: 06/27/90  Time: 21:47:06

No you blithering idiot; the fact that we can compare "apethought" to
"manthought" in a manner which compares their relative DEGREE of development
along their own lines, does NOT contradict the contention that there is a
qualitative, or essential difference between "apethought" and "manthought".
 
Your refusal to acknowledge experiment evidence that apes and some other
animals have the capacity for rational thought, and your even more arbitrary
and unsupported contention that they will not, and cannot ever develope such
a capacity, reveals the essential fact that your views in this regard are
not the result of observation and rational analysis but rather are the
result of some perverse emotional need.
Good day.

Message: 67008
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Cummings/English
Date: 06/27/90  Time: 21:54:41

You are confusing the meaning of the roots of an English word with the
meaning of the English word itself.  You seem to hold the OED in high
regard.  Behold:
 
"It [between] is still the only word available to express the relation of a
thing to many surrounding things severally and individually, *among*
expressing a relation to them collectively and vaguely."
 
                               -- James A.H. Murray in the OED
 
Webster's Dictionary of English Usage states:
 
"...the unfounded notion that *between* can be used of only two items
persists, most perniciously, perhaps, in schoolbooks.  The notion has its
origin in the etymology of *between* -- the *-tween* derives from an Old
English form related to the Old English word for "two"."
 
As I said, if you insist on pedantry, you should at least be correct.

Message: 67010
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Dean/rights
Date: 06/27/90  Time: 22:58:00

It is not a contradiction to acknowledge that rights are a product of the
mind and yet declare them important as well as basic to human nature.  The
contradiction lies in defining rights as existing in reality only when they
are mutually given, and then asserting that your rights are being trampled
when someone who denies the validity of these rights violates their
precepts.  By your definition, rights only exist as the product of a mutual
agreement; when such an agreement does not exist, then your rights as you
conceive of them do not exist, by your definition, and therefore as
a non-entity cannot possibly be violated.  You state that "the despot who
violates the rights which man naturally requires to live as a man and not as
an animal gives up any claim to rights in doing so.  He must be resisted by
force, which is obvious."  You then go on to say that "human rights are a
mutual agreement not to use fraud and coercion against each other in return
for being free of them," but in the same sentence assert that rights may be
"secured" by force.  The despot who does not enter into such a social
contract, because he never acknowledges the rights you declare, cannot be
accused of voiding such a contract.  You state that rights must necessarily
be the result of mutual agreement in order to have real existence.  Very
well; in the illustration, your rights do not exist because no such
agreement exists between the involved parties, that is, the despot and you.

How then, if rights have no real existence without mutual agreement, can you
speak of natural rights, whether or not such an agreement exists?
Furthermore, who defines what these natural rights are, that is, what rights
"man naturally requires?"  You say that you require the right to bear arms
in order to live like a man; another may insist that arms are uncivilised
and that only "animals" do violence to one another.  There is no agreement;
your right to bear arms does not exist.  If you are going to speak of rights
not as a social contract but as an axiomatic contruct based on self-evident
moral imperatives, then you no longer have any basis on which to exclude
animals.  Why should freedom from aggression and exploitation be the
exclusive domain of one species, when clearly the capacity for rational
thought, even assuming that we possess it uniquely, is an arbitrary
criterion irrelavant to the intuitively obvious notion that a being which
does not use coercion or fraud has the natural right to be free of the same?
Your analogy between animals and human criminals might be valid if one is
comparing a tiger with a demonstrated willingness to attack men, with a
human also demonstrating this willingness.  It fails miserably, however, if
the animal in question is not a feral despoiler, but a peaceful ape.  Such a
creature has neither broken the spirit nor (of course) the letter of the law
against murder. Again, you have failed to address the question of the rights
of the mad, the young, the idiot, the senile; these individuals may well
lack the ability to craft or grant the rights you conceive of, or indeed,
even lack the capacity for abstract thought.

Message: 67012
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: War!
Subject: JEFF BECK
Date: 06/27/90  Time: 23:55:28

You're cordially invited to partake and place your mind into
the nearest rational trash can.
Trash cans are not rational you say.
Then say so on Zak's film n video. Continue the tradition of
slavery to grammatical equilibrium and festoon the mood.

Message: 67013
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Drug Talk
Subject: I have it
Date: 06/27/90  Time: 23:56:22

Quote for today is;
 
Assembly language reeks.

Message: 67014
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Dean/animals
Date: 06/28/90  Time: 00:30:52

I have this incredible aversion towards gerbils.

Message: 67014
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Dean/animals
Date: 06/28/90  Time: 00:30:52

I have this incredible aversion towards gerbils.

Message: 67015
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Animal, humans & etc
Date: 06/28/90  Time: 00:51:37

The evolution of the species, any species isn't even mid-way.  If evolution
were complete then we are all in a lot of continued trouble.

Dean, if jungle lizards are happier than the human animal then I'd rather be
one.  It seems that the rights of man, at least the majority of them, are
being taken away.

A city animal with hair, living outdoors in this desert environment is going
against nature.  Natural desert dwellers, cacti included have built-in ways
to remain in the safety zone.  Pets of humans do not exactly belong in this
environment and those who do, like the coyote, have survived for centuries.

In fact neither do humans belong in this desert at least not living such as
we now are.  We are ill prepared to say the least.

Shave your head and then tell me that hair makes one hot.  Now you know why
hair covers the back of my neck and my face.   The sun and the heat causes
human skin to wrinkle, this is true, but where the sun doesn't hit, the
effects of searing motion is less evident.

I am being down on the human animal because of all the oil spills, nuclear
testing, acid rain and other destruction of this planet by man's doing.  We
do not, DO NOT have the right or any right to violate the rights of other
animals be they human or any other species under the sun.  -Rod

Message: 67016
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Mike/AC
Date: 06/28/90  Time: 00:54:32

Good solid posts.  We have swamp coolers and big fans.