Apollo BBS Archive

Apollo BBS Archive - June 21, 1990

Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 66771
Author: Ed Sheridan
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Death
Date: 06/20/90  Time: 23:10:54

I think that time exists or shall I say doesn't exist all at once. What has
passed, what is happening and what will happen, all take place at the same
time. It is only our percepton of continuity that is warped against reality.

Message: 66772
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Maniac drivel
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 00:18:07

        If you had the answer for that Roger, you would have my respect!

I guess you just get 'MAD' at the system...  It has gotten so large it is
not personal anymore.  You hurt, so you hurt others.

MacDonalds in California a few years back... The postal worker who hunted
down his boss and his fellow workers...  The guy who lost his car (love)
because life went sour... all acts of ANGER at the SYSTEM!
Not very many, but when they strike, it reaches out and gets our attention.
The media sees to that.... but will the system learn from it?  Not hardly.
Big fish eat little fish, and the system will put the blame on the 'gun'.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 66773
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Question?
Subject: Melissa Dee
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 00:41:42

Place yourself in a position like that which you described.
Like being raped in front of bystanders who pretend to ignore
what is happening. 
Do you think you would feel anger ?
Would you be angry enough to fight back?
Would you feel justified using a firearm to stop it?
 
I have a leaflet from one of the classes I attended at the USMA.
On the front it reads;
        "Tell them what rape is.
         Be Graphic.
         Be Disgusting.
         Be Obscene.
         Make them sick.
         If they throw up,
         then they have the
         tiniest idea of
         what it is!"
         -Boston rape Victim.
 
My suggestion is that *you* do something about it. Learn to carry
a weapon and learn to use it.
If every woman was armed there would be very few cases of rape nationally..
        -Mike

Message: 66774
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Suicide
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 01:05:04

I took a quick look through the Criminal Code Title 13 a few minutes
ago and could not find anything under Homicide or negligence.
Technically, if you overlook the word "another". I quote 13-1103:
3. Intentionally aiding another to commit suicide;".."
(Manslaughter)
13-1104 (Second degree murder)
2. Knowing that his conduct will cause death or serious physical injury,
such person causes the death of another person; or 
3. Under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to human life, such
person recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death and
thereby causes the death of another person.
".."
I'm sure that suicide is listed in here somewhere. I'll kee looking..
but isn't it funny to see a definite gender bias in the wording.
I wonder if a clever lawyer could say;
"But it says "HIS" not "HERS" and therefore does not apply to women."
        Hmmm.
        -Mike

Message: 66775
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Answer!
Subject: Suicide
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 01:34:15

After reading on a little I discovered;
Title 13, section 1105 (13-1105);
A. A Person commits first degree murder if;
2. Acting either *alone* or with one or more other persons such person
commits or *attempts* to commit....( a very lengthy list of stuff )
..and in the course of and in furtherance of such offense or
immediate flight from such offense, such person or another person
causes the death of any person.
B. Homicide, as defined in subsection A, paragrpah 2 of this section,
requires no specific mental state other than what is required for the
comission of any of the enumerated felonies.
C. First degree murder is a class 1 felony and is punishable by death
or life imprisionment as provided by section 13-703.
 
A few pages back they tell you that a failed attempt at any offense
becomes punishable by the lesser degree of felony. I.E. If you fail
at your suicide, (1st degree murder), then you can be charged with
a class 2 felony.
A class 2 felony is punishable of up to 7 years in jail and or
$150,000 maximum fine. Statute of limitations is 7 years.
According to Arizona law, if you attempt suicide you are a criminal.
        
        -Mike

Message: 66776
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Answer!
Subject: Roger Mann
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 01:46:08

RE: "Why out of the millions of law-abiding folks does one guy get a gun and
ablow away a bunch of people ?"
 
        First off, to be sticky about it, there is no such thing as
a law-abiding citizen. To be law-abiding you must 1st know all about
the laws which govern you and obey them. You can't get to work without
breaking a few dozen laws. 
        Secondly, my first response to your hypothetical question is
"WELCOME TO AMERICA".
Freedom has a price...it can never stop being paid for. It's like 
cable TV. You pay the price, you get the channels. No pay, they
yank your channels and you get stuck with state-run propoganda pushing
program stations. Freedom is a pay as you go service. Freedom is the
guarantee I have that I can be as maniacal as I want when I want..at
least once. The same goes all around the big fat American table.
I'm free to blow you and your family into next Christmas. After I'm
caught I wont be. My decision *not* to be like this **SHOULD** guarantee
my continuance of my freedom. When one of us decides to cash in his or
her chips, well, that's just the way the cookie was made.
It's ***YOUR*** responsibility to protect yourself. Not mine, not Joe
next door..not the COPS. If you value your freedom, keep paying.
Sometimes that payment must include ammunition and training.
I wish it didn't. 
IF WISHES WERE HORSES, BEGGARS WOULD RIDE.

Message: 66777
Author: $ Steven Carls
Category: Answer!
Subject: Flag Burning
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 02:05:37

I am also against an amendment, so to speak.  I see both sides of the fence
on this issue.  What I can't understand is this.
There was a man in Virginia I do beleive that burned a IRANIAN flag at a
assembly protesting the Iranian hostage situation.  This gentleman was
arrested withou incident and charged with ARSON.  When he went to court the
judge threw out the case, and praised him on his patriotism.  However, this
arson charge was on his official record for 3 years.  He found this out when
he tried to buy an "assault gun."  He found out that a crimminal charge
shows up almost instantly on your record, but takes 3-5 your for your charge
to be updated.  Moral:  Don't burn Iranian flags, burn the flag of the
country you live in.
Is it me, or does this seems like B.S.
 " The ATARI WILDCAT "  Steven Carls
$

Message: 66778
Author: $ Steven Carls
Category: Answer!
Subject: Massacre
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 02:11:59

Some facts about the California shooting in the school yard.
The person who shot all those kids was charged and convicted for violent
crimes.  He had several felony charges against him in the state of
California.  The state of California has some of the toughest gun laws in
the nation.  California let this man buy several handguns after his felony
arrests.  This guy then applied and recived a Security Guard Permit.  This
is for non-felons also.  After this permit he was arrested a couple of more
times.  California let him keep his weapons and his permit.  Maybe
California should realize that their gun control isn't working.  I notice
that the media didn't mention much about California letting this guy have
guns, but the media mentioned much about the EVILS of guns.
 " The ATARI WILDCAT "  Steven Carls

Message: 66779
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Mike's dinner
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 02:33:38

There's some great prose in there..."a frigid, trembling finger...pale white
at the knuckles, poised like the sting of a scorpion." ... "A thin line of
hair drifting on end from the wash of the overhead fan changed angle and
fell into the eyes of the man with the gun."  
Maybe it's time you wrote some fiction?

Message: 66780
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Roger/maniacs
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 02:41:28

There you go again, trying to project rational motive patterns and your own
emotions on these people.  Someone blows a bunch of people away and gets
themselves killed in the process, (whether by their own hand or not) and you
leap in asserting what tremendous hate and hostility they must have.  Then
you go on to ask idiot questions such as "why out of the millions of
law-abiding folks does one guy get a gun and blow away a bunch of people?"
What kind of answer were you expecting, Roger?  Something that would make
you say, "Oh yeah, I guess that makes sense." ?? 

Message: 66781
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Answer!
Subject: John Groseclose
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 05:38:54

 The main thrust of a eulogy is to comfort those who are left to grieve, not
to praise or condemn the dead.
 Do circumstances dictate the morality of the situation? Aren't you really
asking whether the man should be judged and condemned for committing a sin?
 I don't really know. Ask God. Judgement is in His court, not ours.
 Since God's grace is undeserved merit and His mercy is the sentence we
deserve but don't get, I expect we will see some folks in heaven that we
never expected to see there.

Message: 66782
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: John C./infallibilit
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 05:47:48

 Thank you for the correction, John. I will now revise my statement to meet
the criteria.
 Popes, RC dogma not withstanding, are no more infallible than any other
elected official, or any other human. As humans, they are as prone to error
and/or failure as any other. This includes statements of grave
matter, relating to spirituality and propounded "ex cathedra".
 That is my revised opinion re: papal infallibility, thanks to John
Cummings.

Message: 66783
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bobby on taking.
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 07:50:32

I really thought it was against the law - on account of someone might decide
to jump off a building onto the people below or jump off a bridge on the
freeway, landing on a car and perhaps killing several people.
                        -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 66784
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Roger on my pix
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 07:57:15

It would be cheaper for you to come over to my house and view my drawings.
Save a lot of dough! Ha. 
All kidding aside, unless you draw or have the need for high res. graphics,
a VGA system is kind of a waste. Of course, everything from Procomm, to a
word processor to Xtree Pro looks better in VGA. AND - you know it's there
when you need it. Aw heck - go buy one! Ha ha.-=*) ANN (*=-
P.S. Cliff will make you a good deal!

Message: 66785
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Answer!
Subject: Rod #66770
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 08:05:45

Excellent post my man! It was almost poetic in content. Again, we agree all
the way. I always felt that the fear of death is what motivates man. Yet,
most will not admit to it. 
I agree with the cemetary thing. They are an abomination in my eyes and such
a waste. I never understood the need for them. For one thing, there isn't a
person that I know of that doesn't believe that that person buried is there!
If a Christian, then they will believe they have went to Heaven or elsewhere
and if an athiest, will believe that life is gone, period. So why the need
for a plot, headstone and flowers, plus visits??? We ought to be used at
least for furtilizer so even our remains are still good for something.
We have a huge cemetary near us that would make a great, needed park for the
kiddies and all to enjoy. Again - a good post Rod. -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 66786
Author: Hans Glans
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Last
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 08:49:46

I always thought it would be nice to plant a tree on someones grave. Makes
use of the carbon...and definatly slows down grave robbing.

Message: 66787
Author: Jeff Lochansky
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: The System
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 11:18:08

You know I hear so msny people talk and write post complaining about 
"THE SYSTEM", but I've never actualy seen anybody who complained about it
tell us that they started a petition drive or wrote their
representative,about any of their complaints. I think that option in our
"SYSTEM" only work when used. You (the complainers of the world) cannot
expect someone else to do your dirty work for you (ie. changing the system)
If you don't like a law or anything for that fact in the US, I was always
lead to believe that you could do something about it. You cannot expect a
system of democrocy to work, if you do not become actively involved. Voting
alone just isn't enough.Sometime when you see a person circulating a
petition, take the time and look at it, you might find that somebody is
doing your work for you already, and all you have to do is sign it. You
could also not sign it because you don't want to get involved, or maybe are
even afraid somebody might call you and want you to help.That would mean you
have to leave your house. I'm not trying to put anybody down, it just makes
me so mad when people complain about something they could easily help to
change, but they prefer to stay home.My whole point is, if you do not get
involved, and do something about what you don't like, please, don't complain
to the people that do, because you haven't earned the right to complain yet.
Become a good citizen first, involve yourself in government, then you have
the right like any good citizen to complain.Well, but thats just one mans
opnion, me, but thats what democrocy is all about.
THE MAD MAX

Message: 66788
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Politics
Subject: Cliff/instruction
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 12:45:59

  Texas schools used to teach firearms safety. There was a national outcry
against it. As I recall, they were driven to the point that they couldn't
even use a BB gun in a public school to demonstrate safety and basic gun
knowledge. The attitude that ignorance is bliss ruled the day, and at least
a few people have probably had preventable accidents as a result. Just one
more reason to do away with public education.
  See You Later,
    Dean H.

Message: 66789
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rape
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 13:01:57

  The only thing I wonder about in all these cases where a woman is raped in
front of witnesses is: can the witnesses tell for sure that something is
wrong. I have often been in situations where I wondered if I should
interevene (not rapes, but what seem to be arguements or fights). The
question I always face is, do these people know each other and is this
normal behavior for them, or is someone really in danger here? I usually
don't act unless I am sure there is a reason, and it has always turned out
that as far as I could tell there wasn't any reason. If a woman is being
raped, robbed, kidnapped, or otherwise molested, it would be a good thing if
they did everything in their power to make this clear to any bystanders. In
a case like that I would take action, and I assume that most people would
also.
  See You Later,
     Dean H.

Message: 66790
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Mad Max
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 14:02:27

        You as a person can NOT change the SYSTEM...  The problem with the
SYSTEM is nothing a LAW will fix... The problem is it is now so BIG, it has
become IMPERSONAL!  No one knows anyone else....  There is no "Oh, hello
Joe,  I see you are late on your auto payment...is there anything we can do?
 How about a part payment this month and make up the rest when you can? "

It's now "Sir...  You are late on your payment!  Pay it or lose it NOW!"

The guy in question is a good guy with a good history.  He however lost his
job at the Attack Apache Helicopter factory to no fault of his own.  So the
SYSTEMs answer is to take away his car... NOW  A personal system will say,
when you get a job again, we will talk...till then consider your auto loan
suspended.

        Today with everything going to MEGA Corporations and the shut down
of Mom & pop type businesses...the personal touch is lost.  During the big
crash (depression) my parents talked about people helping people.  In todays
world it would be a disaster of a mega proportion.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 66791
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Posts
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 14:09:48

        Good posts people, friends and countrymen..  Squeaky Clean too!

Even by Rod... ha hahaha

        To the NON-Members...  See, we don't always yell and fight....
Consider staying on Apollo, and joining in the FUN.  Attend a GT when you
can, and you will see we are really friends.  You need not see eye to eye to
be a friend...  but you do need to join in.   POST!

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 66792
Author: Jeff Lochansky
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: The System
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 14:50:28

Yes cliff I agree, buissness is lossing its personal touch. But that is
basicly not what I was talking about, I was talking about government,and
that can be changed,the impeachment of old EV was the best example for that,
somebody didn't like what he was doing, and did something about it.
Change in society is not going to happen by itself,no let me rephrase that,
positive changes, are not going to happen, unless we the citizens get
actively involved. All I'm trying to say is, dont expect change if your not
willing to do something for it. If everybody thought"oh someone else is
going to circulate that petition or call their congressman" then eventually
nothing is going to happen, because everybody thinks someone else is going
to do it and nothing happens. Then these people turn around and complain
again,"oh you see, the syatem doesn't work", but they didn't try to do
anything, because they expected someone else to do it for them.
Here is my absolute bottomline:
don't cry if you didn't become involved, just stay one of the sheep.
Active Involvment,Active involvment.
Deeds, not words, will help us.
THE MAD MAX

Message: 66793
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Carla
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 15:41:11

Re:  "Hari_Kari is the term my Japanese friend used. (She is from Japan)"

She obviously knew foreigners wouldn't understand the word "seppuku", so she
used the word they would understand.  Wakarimasu ka?

Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Melissa
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 15:51:23

Re:  "I guess everyone is too afraid to get involved anymore.  It's sad.
But something has got to change."

I agree completely.  I read about the event in the Wednesday paper, and it
made me mad.  I think one of the reasons crimes against women have increased
is the attitude of the judicial system.  At one time rapists would receive
the death penalty.  Maybe that was too extreme, but now a repeat vicious
rapist gets little but a hand slap.  Also considering that only about 15% of
all rapes are even reported, you can see that men prone to rape have very
good odds of raping anyone they please and getting away with it.  Yes,
something has got to change!

Message: 66795
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Mike
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 15:56:10

Re:  "IF WISHES WERE HORSES, BEGGARS WOULD RIDE."

If wishes were horses, we'd all take a ride!

:-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:

Message: 66796
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Annie
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 16:00:13

Re:  "I really thought it was against the law"

Well, it just goes to show you that I don't know what I'm talking about!  
According to Mike it is against the law.  "7 years in jail and or $150,000"

Message: 66797
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Glands
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 16:03:07

Re:  "I always thought it would be nice to plant a tree on someones grave."

I remember reading a murder mystery once where the killer did his victim in
while she was eating a peach.  Several years later a new peach tree was
instrumental in solving the murder case!

Message: 66798
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Answer!
Subject: massacre/calif
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 16:19:21

maybe calif better learn how to enforce their gun laws. I take it from
your example, that you would be in favor of removing all drug laws from
the books, too ?

Message: 66799
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: jeff/maniacs
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 16:20:25

No, I was hoping for some mature rational discussion.

Message: 66800
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Politics
Subject: Roger/Calif
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 17:45:18

  The obvious lesson is that California made no reasonable attempt to
enforce the laws restricting gun ownership by felons, and then used the
resulting mayhem as an excuse to make further restrictions on the rights of
non-felons. The original laws would have reduced crime, but were
inconvenient to enforce, the new laws are simply a grab for the guns of
those who are easier to cow into submission, the non-criminal element. The
state does not care about preventing crime, only protecting its monopoly
over it.
   Organizing judicial records so that a database could be created with
accurate information on people who do NOT have the right to keep and bear
arms would solve this problem and would not encroach the rights of every
other citizen. Since this program would not expand the power of the state
beyond its existing role in law enforcement, it finds little favor with
those who would rather use crime as an excuse to control everyone.
   See You Later,
      Dean H.

Message: 66801
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Paul/God
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 18:45:35

Well, I can tell you one thing:  "God" would, if he was capable of an
emotion analogous to humor, be sublimely amused that millions of hairless
apes presume to speak His "mind."

Message: 66802
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: intervention
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 18:58:27

Once many years ago, when I was an auto delivery agent for the Gazette (and
the Republic on Sunday mornings), I was folding papers early one Sunday in
the parking lot of what used to be Gemco, but is now Smitty's.  There were
only two people in left in the parking lot who had any business there,
myself and another delivery agent, a woman.  She was across the lot from me.
About her stood two youths, one of whom was brandishing a "butterfly" knife.
Ostensibly, he was showing off his dexterity.  I surmised that it was, one,
a test to see how she would react to subtle threat and intimidation, which
would presumably escalate to higher levels if she responded satisfactorily
(to their minds); two, that it was a time wasting measure intended to keep
her there until I had left the parking lot (she appeared to be ready to
leave except for her attention to the youths); and three...my mind has
wandered.  Anyway, I went over and asked if everything was alright, and made
some comment about the knife.  It was clear that she was uncomfortable. 
They left, and she thanked me.  The next day she and her husband thanked me
(he was working with her that day).
It seems clear from the newspaper reports that the situation at South
Mountain Park was far less ambiguous.

Message: 66803
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: involvement
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 19:01:55

I'm not so sure it's a case of people being afraid to get involved. 
Particularly when one is part of a group of young, vigorous men, as was no
doubt the case at South Mountain Park.  Many of the kids go there in groups,
and there are usually some pretty rough and tumble types hanging around. 
Remember also that both assailants were unarmed.

Message: 66804
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Mann/maniacs
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 19:05:13

What sense does it make to analyze such a person's mind in terms of the
workings of your own?  You might as well try to analyze the behavior of rats
in terms of 20th Century Cubism.

Message: 66805
Author: Andy Barne
Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
Subject: to sysop
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 19:30:06

your board aint worth a shit.
get a real computer.

Message: 66806
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Question?
Subject: Mad Max
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 20:47:42

        You mention Mr Mecham and what he was doing...  Please tell me what
was he doing.  All I can see is he would not kiss up to the Phoenix 40 so
they black balled him and the public bought it.  Mecham wanted LESS spending
unless the State had the Money... The Phoenix 40 wanted MORE.  Remember, he
was cleared of all charges in court.    Mofford on the other hand, does
everything they want.....  She is in, he is out.

        *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 66807
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Andy Barne
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 20:55:12

        Your grammar ain't worth anything either Andy Barne.
Get a brain dummy.....

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 66808
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann/Graves
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 21:48:06

I guess some atheists believe that when physical death comes along that
there is nothing.  That seems to be the view of Ms. O'Hair of the American
Atheists but myself, I really cannot say one way or another because I simply
do not know.

As noted before, scientifically speaking, nothing dies only changes into
something else.

But it would almost be worth it to stay dead forever if one did not have to
live on Planet Earth.

I was checking some information out just a short while ago on the A.S.U.
computer network.  In their encyclopedia it basically said that research has
shown that the majority of those who commit suicide believe in a creator and
by their final notes and previous writings believe that they will be with
their God looking down on their former self.  I would suppose from this info
that religion is a contributing factor of suicide.  I will read my buffer
and gather more information on the subject.
                        Rod

Message: 66809
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ed Sheridan/time
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 21:48:23

You're kidding.

Message: 66810
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bob
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 21:54:22

Wakariyasui kaba?

Message: 66811
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Question?
Subject: Jeff Beck
Date: 06/21/90  Time: 22:01:22

Oh, you were a newspaper boy, eh?  Good posts (all of them).

Naked apes hit the old nail right on the head.  Desmond Morris called it as
he saw it and he saw it.

Do you think that God believes we just blabber compared to him, huh?