Apollo BBS Archive

Apollo BBS Archive - June 8 - 11, 1989

$tatus Club Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 5593
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Fire'arms
Subject: DeConcini
Date: 06/08/89  Time: 00:26:07

    When I first heard about Senator DeConcini's proposed bill to ban 
the sale of certain semi-automatic firearms, and treat persons already 
legally owning such firearms as a dangerous menace to society, I called 
his office and registered my disagreement with it. I did not elaborate 
much, only saying that it would not serve to deter crime in any way and 
could not be justified.
    Yesterday I received from DeConcini's office an envelope containing, 
a copy of the bill and his introductory testimony from the Congressional 
Record; a letter from him supporting the bill; and (imagine the gall 
required here!)  a copy of the National Rifle Association's letter 
recommending DeConcini to its members BEFORE the last election. To add 
insult to injury, the NRA's letter of endorsement had been extended by 
DeConcini's staff to include a page from The Arizona Republic claiming 
that a telephone poll had proven that voters in the Phoenix area favor 
a ban on semi-automatic firearms by a huge margin. This poll, which used 
a question which could easily be misleading and was obviously weighted in 
favor of a 'yes' response, concluded from only 420 opinions that seven 
out of ten valley voters support banning such firearms.
    In his letter he quotes Barry Goldwater as saying that he has 
never owned a semi-auto or used one for hunting, so nobody has any need 
for one. It does no credit to either Goldwater or DeConcini to publicize
such a foolish and short-sighted position, and it makes one thankful that 
Goldwater is no longer in office now that he is going senile. It has no 
more bearing that Goldwater has never used a semi-auto for hunting 
than it does that I and many others have. Not everyone can afford a 
golf bag full of guns to cover every occasion, and a semi-auto rifle is a 
very good solution for anyone who needs one firearm capable of being 
used for everything from hunting to target shooting to emergency 
service as a defense tool (some of us don't get body-guards, but plan to 
be prepared to defend our families if required anyway, Barry!). All this 
talk of 'sporting use' is nothing but a diversion, since it is the right to
individual and collective DEFENSE, not just hunting, which the Second 
Amendment protects.
    The main argument DeConcini advances is that he is a great 
believer in the right to bear arms and his bill is meant to pre-empt the 
even more abusive bill proposed by Senator Metzenbaum. Since DeConcini's 
bill would only outlaw nine existing styles of firearm instead of the 
twenty-five targeted by Metzenbaum, and his would just create a huge 
new record keeping nightmare (with a $1000 fine, six months in prison, 
and permanent forfeiture of civil rights as the penalty for failure to 
put yourself on their 'future confiscation' list), he can't understand why 
gun-owners haven't rushed to him with open arms.

    If he really wanted to help, he shouldn't have forced those who 
defend the Bill of Rights to waste valuable resources, which could have 
been used to fight the Metzenbaum bill, on defeating his own assault on 
the Second Amendment.
    I plan to write something back to him about this, and I'll probably
post it when I get it done. Maybe I should try to get a few more people
to sign it also, to show that some of us are paying attention out here.
    See You Later,
      Dean H.
      

p.s.(there is a rally planned for Saturday, June 17 from 8 to 10AM at
Jefferson and 18th Ave to show opposition to this useless harassment.)

Message: 5596
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Dean/your posts
Date: 06/08/89  Time: 08:18:05

Very informative! I firmly believe that this bill they want to pass is the
first step against taking our guns away from us. As long as we have them, we
are free and the government knows that. Can you imagine what just happened
in China happening here with us armed? There wouldn't have been 3,000
citizens slaughtered for demonstrating. A lot of people would be killed, but
we'd take a few armed guards with us. 
BYW .. can you tell me if we're the only country in the world that's allowed
to bare arms? Hell, even the police force in England can't bare arms. 
The right to bare arms is even more important today than it's ever been with
all the criminal elements roaming the streets - the gangs - the dope pushers
that'll kill you at a drop of the hat! The police that really have no power
over the criminals etc. etc. Heaven forbid a policeman kill anybody. He'd be
in trouble. -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 5597
Author: $ James Hawley
Category: Answer!
Subject: Ann
Date: 06/08/89  Time: 11:21:09

Most policeman in the US can't bare their arms.  (Some beach patrols in CA
are probably the exceptions.)  Strict uniform enforcement, I believe.

Message: 5598
Author: $ Todd Reese
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: right to bare arms
Date: 06/08/89  Time: 13:26:59

It would really depend on how sensitive your skin is to sunlight.

Message: 5599
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Answer!
Subject: Ann
Date: 06/08/89  Time: 14:53:30

  Some countries do allow some degree of gun ownership, but it is usually
heavily regulated. None of them consider gun ownership a right upon which
their form of government depends, as the founders of America did.
  See you later,
    Dean H.

Message: 5600
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: Dean's letter
Date: 06/08/89  Time: 17:00:06

        Sandy and I got the same letter last week and already sent out a
reply (in the very next days mail)...  Maybe we will post ours aswell.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 5601
Author: $ Jeannie Innajug
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: arms
Date: 06/09/89  Time: 07:18:32

Hey...........................Everyone.................

I can't believe a person who hates showing it off in a swim suit would want
to bare her arms at all!

See Y'aa..............
Jeannie

(P.S.  .........................

      If she did, you would no longer need to worry about them being
"concealed"?)

Message: 5602
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Fire'arms
Subject: DeConcini
Date: 06/09/89  Time: 17:20:57

Re:  "(imagine the gall required here!)"
        
Sounds just like ol' Dennis.

Message: 5603
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Ann
Date: 06/09/89  Time: 17:24:28

Re:  "can you tell me if we're the only country in the world that's allowed
to bare arms?"
        
Well, I've traveled to a number of other countries and I've seen people with
bare arms everywhere.  

Message: 5604
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Fire'arms
Subject: DeConcini
Date: 06/09/89  Time: 22:44:18

Senator DeConcini:
     I appreciate receiving the copy of your proposed bill, along with 
your reasons for introducing it, in response to my earlier phone call to 
your office. I am still quite opposed to the bill however, and I would 
like to briefly explain why.
     The first consideration is whether or not this legislation would 
achieve it's stated purpose of reducing crime. There is no evidence, even 
after decades of such experiments at various levels of government here 
in the United States, that this or any other gun control scheme can 
actually reduce crime. I don't believe that any case can be made that 
violent criminal offenders will be deterred by either a ban on legal sales 
or additional record keeping requirements. I am sure that any honest 
appraisal of the situation would have to conclude that this approach 
actually diverts law enforcement resources away from real crime in 
order to harass gun owners for no practical purpose.
     I recognize that your aim was to preempt the Metzenbaum Bill with 
one which was not as bad, but we should force the opposition to prove 
their case, rather than rush to meet them halfway when we know that 
their whole approach is illogical and useless. They used all the same 
phoney  arguments unsuccessfully against handguns ('they are only made 
for killing people', 'they have no sporting purpose', 'nobody needs a right
to that kind of a gun') and if we had 'accommodated' their irrational
demands we would have been disarmed by degrees. Those statements, in 
case you are not aware, are just as false in regard to semi-automatic 
firearms as they were with handguns.
     Americans were guaranteed the right to bear arms for purposes of 
defending themselves and the Constitution. For government to restrict  
ownership of a firearm because it does not meet some contrived 
standard for 'sporting use' is contrary to the meaning of the Second 
Amendment. It would be just as wrong-headed as declaring that freedom 
of speech is only protected when the topic is 'sports'. While it should 
be kept in mind that 'sporting use' is not actually a valid criteria, 
those who speak of it should be informed that semi-automatic firearms 
are usable for hunting and other shooting sports. In fact, a semi-
automatic rifle can make an excellent solution for anyone who needs one 
firearm which can be used for hunting and target shooting and be 
available for emergency use as a defensive tool.
     My conclusion is that since we all recognize that the Metzenbaum 
bill is a bad piece of legislation, we should be putting all our resources 
into opposing it. Senate Bill 747 diverts some of those resources at a 
most inopportune time.
     For the record, I do not own any firearm which would be effected 
by any of the proposed legislation and I am not involved in any firearm 
related business. Thank you for your attention.

Message: 5606
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Dear Jeannie
Date: 06/10/89  Time: 08:21:25

Who said I didn't want to show off in a swim suit? Not I! In fact, just
bought one for $50 and it's pretty brief - waiting for an Apollo Kontest!If
there was one, would you show up in a bathing suit? -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 5607
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: OK! OK! ..
Date: 06/10/89  Time: 08:23:21

So I misspelled 'bare'! Give me twenty lashes with a wet noodle and lets
forget it! I still say a 'bear' is an animal! -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 5608
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Fire'arms
Subject: Letter to DeConcini
Date: 06/10/89  Time: 08:44:58

     In response to your letter Dated May 4, 1989 and received May 27, 1989
concerning S. 747 and S. 386 -- Gun Control:

     Using names to back your decision such as 'your colleagues', President
Bush, and Ex-Senator Goldwater does not make a wrong a right.  You were put
into your present position by the citizens of the State of Arizona not by
'your colleagues', President Bush, or Ex-Senator Goldwater.

     How can anyone determine what is used for criminal activity?  There is
such a wide spectrum of crime and criminal types.  Is this your and your
governments way of saying that, eventually, everything that could
conceivably cause harm to police officers or government officials will be
banned?  Why not accommodate the honest citizen by straightening up the
Judicial system.  I would say the answers are already there.  Make use of
what we have now.  Stiffen penalties for the use of these semi-automatics
and have the Courts hand down these stiff sentences and make the criminal
serve his sentence in full.

     We do not see your need to quote Ex-Senator Goldwater.  He is a retired
senior citizen who has lived his life.  His lifestyle is not that of the
average Arizona citizen and he cannot be quoted as someone who is speaking
for the citizens of Arizona.
You may have been a friend of the NRA.  People throughout history have
been known to change their views and beliefs.  We feel you are one of them.
You may, at one point in time, have been an advocate of the NRA, but, we can
not see where you are now.  Saying you are a friend of the pro-gun people
and introducing the bill that you did do not go hand in hand.

     How can the NRA use their time to be heard by you when you will not
listen to them?  We will, indeed, encourage the NRA to get involved in the
current gun control negotiations.  The 'constructive' involvement you seek
with the NRA can only happen when the NRA has turned traitor to the American
people.

     We thank you for responding to our concerns.

     Firmly against S. 747 and S. 386,

P.S. I proudly served in the defense of my country as a navy man for 4 years
     and now wonder why; as I see what I fought for being defeated from
     within. 

                        (Letter written by Cliff and Sandy)

Message: 5610
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: DeConcini & Letters
Date: 06/10/89  Time: 08:58:01

        I read Dean's letter and really liked it, so I uploaded the letter
that Sandy and I sent to Senator Dennis DeConcini on May 27, 1989.
        There are others of you that are very talented in the art of letter
writing and who believe in our freedom to arms as guaranteed by the
Constitution of the United States of America.  Please take a few minutes and
write one, so that the Un-Thinkers and the Misinformed don't get their way
and disarm America.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 5611
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: a few minuets
Date: 06/10/89  Time: 10:08:35

Sorry, I don't dance

Message: 5612
Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
Category: Answer!
Subject: Last
Date: 06/10/89  Time: 20:20:03

        That is fine ........... dancing is not required ........
        just write the letter to DeConcini ........

Message: 5613
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Entertainment
Subject: Harry's War
Date: 06/10/89  Time: 23:56:22

Movie: Harry's War
     I declare WAR on the I.R.S.

     Staring: Edward Herrmann, Geraldine Page, Karen Grassle and David Ogden
Stiers.    (PG) by Image Home Video

$40.00 from Dr. Robert Clarkson, 515 Concord Avenue, Anderson, S.C. 29621

Or.... I have a copy rented (hard to find) till Monday night for viewing.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 5614
Author: $ Todd Reese
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: letters
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 00:14:11

Both letters were very good.  I only gave Senator DeConcini my phone number
when telling him my opposition to Senate Bill 747, so I doubt I will be
hearing from him.  (Besides, after what I said to him over the Bork thing, I
doubt he'll ever write me again).
 
I would like to write a letter or my own.  What's the address?
 
(I also get tired of the Goldwater thing.  He's such a crabby old man
anymore, and every time he talks he shows how out-of-touch he is with
reality.)

Message: 5615
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Harry's War
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 15:19:02

        I saw that movie on cable several years ago.  I loved it so much
that it is still a part of my memory.  I highly recommend it.

Message: 5616
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Dean & SYSOPS
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 15:20:50

        The messages you wrote to DeConcini could easily be printed out and
sent to various publications in the State.  In fact, the letter that Dean
wrote explaining what he was going to do would make good copy.  -Rod

Creative Corner Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 2309
Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
Category: Answer!
Subject: Ann
Date: 06/10/89  Time: 20:24:09

        I would say Dean won ......
        Looks as if Gary came is second .......

If all agree, I deem the contest over.
Awards will be handed out as soon Cliff and I get a hardware order in for
our laser printer.

        Good work, Dean .......

        Nice last minute entry, Gary .......

        Thank you all for your entries!
        They were all enjoyable.


Message: 2310
Author: $ Mike Howerton
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: movies
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 21:51:38

Two movies that I would recommend are Field of Dreams and Dead Poet's
Society.  Field of dreams is almost guaranteed to make the males in the
audience cry and the females will probably get the idea also. Dead poet's is
good as long as you don't go expecting to see another Good Morning Vietnam
type movie. Robin Williams is in the movie but he isn't the centerpiece this
time around.

Computer Hacker SIG Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 179
Author: $ Todd Reese
Category: Bit Bucket Talk
Subject: last
Date: 06/08/89  Time: 00:02:12

1.  Arizona Republic
2.  I don't remember.
3.  Because of (2), I can't be more specific.
4.  Several boards were mentioned.
5.  I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

Message: 180
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Bit Bucket Talk
Subject: Todd?
Date: 06/08/89  Time: 17:10:48

        Was this recent?   I have been in Texas the past week... Tell me
more... Do you still have this paper?   What was it about... Is this a JOKE?
Who thought it was a pirate board?  I would like to find who wrote the
article.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 181
Author: $ Todd Reese
Category: Commodore/Amiga
Subject: last
Date: 06/09/89  Time: 12:00:42

1. No
2. No
3. It was about hackers and pirate boards.
4. No, it's not a joke.
5. The writer of the article.

Message: 182
Author: $ Michael James
Category: Bit Bucket Talk
Subject: Arizona Republic
Date: 06/09/89  Time: 13:30:44

Sue it.

Message: 183
Author: $ Kim Paskiewicz
Category: Bit Bucket Talk
Subject: Last
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 05:22:02

  Lets sue for the big bucks and then put in more phone lines. Clif can also
get a new computer, maybe a 80386. What do you think, snow balls chance in
Az.

Kim V. Paskiewicz A.S.B.B.Ser

The outer COSmos Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 3145
Author: $ Todd Reese
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: last
Date: 06/08/89  Time: 00:03:10

"If I'm a Dweez-Bag, then you're a Bobo Yaga."

Message: 3146
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: Daryl/#3144
Date: 06/08/89  Time: 07:59:26

"Vacant Scrotal Sac." --- hahahahahahahahahahahaha. Now that's a good one!
                        -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 3147
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: Todd/?
Date: 06/08/89  Time: 08:04:24

Ok - I'll fall for it! What's a 'Bobo Yaga'??? Somehow, it does not sound
offensive. I.E. .... "Did I tell you Sue that I finally divorced the rotten
'Bobo Yaga' husband of mine?" However .. this sounds much better ...
.. "Did I tell you Sue that I finally divorced the rotten Dweez Bag husband
of mine"? See? 'Bobo Yaga' sound like a baseball manager or something. 
                        -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 3148
Author: $ Todd Reese
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: last
Date: 06/08/89  Time: 13:28:00

A Bobo Yaga is very similar to a Cha Chi Bobo.

Message: 3149
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: Toddy
Date: 06/09/89  Time: 07:03:31

Yeah -- "Did I tell you Sue that I finally got rid of my Cha Chi Bobo of a
husband?" Naw! I've got a dog named Chachi and she's a sweet little thing.
Hardly think it's an insult in the same category as Bitch! So far, Dweez Bag
is good and fitting. 
Re: Douch Bag: I do not see the insult here! It's a cleaning device like a
vacuum or mop. "Did I tell you Sue that I finally got rid of my vacuum of a
husband?" Naw! 
Re: the difference between women and men insults: This morning over
breakfast my husband was talking about some real estate broker he knows and
refered to her as 'A bossy broad!" I stopped him in mid sentence and ask
what the male equivelent was and he said "Advice consultant!" Men!
                           -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 3150
Author: $ Jeannie Innajug
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: Bobo Yaga
Date: 06/09/89  Time: 07:20:49

Hey.....................Annie....................

If I remember right, Baba Yaga was a Russian witch.  I think it means 'old
woman' or 'grandmother' in Russian.

See Y'aa..............
Jeannie

Message: 3151
Author: $ Todd Reese
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: Ultimate insult
Date: 06/09/89  Time: 12:02:06

The ultimate insult for a girl when I was in high school was "Hose bag."

Message: 3152
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: Todd./Hose bag
Date: 06/10/89  Time: 08:26:29

That's terrible! But we were talking about the male equivilent insults. Ok,
what would be the equivilent of 'Hose Bag' be? -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 3153
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: Todd/Hose Bag
Date: 06/10/89  Time: 08:31:08

That brings up a point ... why is it when a woman sleeps around, she's a
hose bag, whore, chippie, cheap, pounding board, slut, etc. etc.? When a man
makes as many conquests as he can, he's Macho, a Stud etc. There just isn't
any derogatory insults. The worst I ever heard in discribing such a man is
"he'd stick it in a knot hole if it had hair around it!" See? -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 3154
Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: Ann
Date: 06/10/89  Time: 20:32:52

        If Cliff slept around ...... I would call him "Dead".
        
        Now, if I slept around ...... I would call myself "Busy".

Message: 3155
Author: $ Todd Reese
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: last
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 00:15:40

I'd call you "Lucky."
 
(haw haw haw haw haw)

Message: 3156
Author: $ Todd Reese
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: Male Hose Bag
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 00:16:15

Oh, that's easy.  The male version was called a "Hoser."

Message: 3157
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Answer !
Subject: Sandy/#3154
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 09:27:47

VERY good Dandy Sandy. -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 3158
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: Toad/on Sandy
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 09:29:01

That was a insult! Sandy ought to shoot you with one of her big guns!
Lucky indeed! -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 3159
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: Todd/Hoser
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 09:29:52

Now that's hardly an insult. Has the ring of 'a stud' about it.

Message: 3160
Author: $ Todd Reese
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: last
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 13:08:04

I thought "stud" had something to do with cattle.  I'd hate to be called a
stud.

Message: 3161
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: Todd/stud
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 15:25:00

        You do look a bit like a bull.


Message: 3162
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Jokes & Ha Ha's
Subject: Lawyers!
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 23:25:52

The devil speaking to an attorney: "I'll give you the Playboy mansion
complete with the bunnies, a beach house, a Lear jet, a 100 foot yacht in
Monte Carlo, a fleet of Rolls and a $25 million/year law practice.  In
return all I want is your soul, your mother's soul, your wife's soul and the
souls of your three children."   The attorney replied: "What's the catch?"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

"A man without money needs no more fear a crowd of lawyers than a crowd of
pickpockets."    - William Wyhcerley in 1674
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

"God works wonders now and then; Behold! An honest lawyer!"
                 - Benjamin Franklin in 1733
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

"When God wanted to chastise mankind, He created lawyers."
                 - Old Russian proverb
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Woe be unto you lawyers! for ye took away the key of knowledge: ye entered
not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered."
                 - Jesus

SYSOP Cliff


Late Night Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 1654
Author: $ Todd Reese
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: last
Date: 06/08/89  Time: 00:04:00

That's just great - while the rest of us pay sky-rocketed insurance rates.

Gee, thanks Hawley.

Message: 1655
Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
Category: Growl...
Subject: Toddddddd
Date: 06/10/89  Time: 20:34:40

        Quit  yer  griping  and  go  out  there  and  steal  your  car!
        Can't  make  no  money  sittin'  'round  and  griping .....

Message: 1656
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: TV/Movies
Subject: Harry's War
Date: 06/10/89  Time: 21:06:12

        Found a copy of this movie at 'Blockbuster Video' on Greenway and
35th Ave.   It is about this guy that declares war on the I.R.S.
Just a note to let you know, we are viewing this movie tonight!
Does anyone else wish to see it... Stop over, we have till midnight monday
to return the sucker.

Bring your own PoP!  We only serve water with free movies.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 1657
Author: $ Todd Reese
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Ok
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 00:18:06

I'll be over in about a half hour.  It will be almost 1 am by then - hope
you guys are up.
Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 59111
Author: Michelle Reynolds
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Well..
Date: 06/07/89  Time: 22:47:13

I am doing great I guess. I just
graduated from Maryvale High
School and am now ready to 
experience the real world. Look
out!

Message: 59112
Author: $ Todd Reese
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: last
Date: 06/07/89  Time: 23:59:29

Good job!  Now you is just like us edjukated folk.

Message: 59113
Author: $ James Hawley
Category: Answer!
Subject: Todd/GT
Date: 06/08/89  Time: 06:55:48

25 people showed up for the GT you announced.  That's pretty good
considering only a five minute warning.

Message: 59114
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: James H./last
Date: 06/08/89  Time: 07:54:25

There is twenty five active members on this board! -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 59115
Author: $ James Hawley
Category: Answer!
Subject: Last
Date: 06/08/89  Time: 11:23:01

The meaning of your message was rather confused.  Were you trying to say,
"There are *only* 25 active members on Apollo"?  Or perhaps, "There aren't
even 25 active members of Apollo"?

Message: 59116
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Last
Date: 06/08/89  Time: 15:01:08

  Since it was stated as an exclamation rather than a question, I suspect it
was the result of some kind of private sex survey Ann has taken to separate
the 'active members' from the 'flaccid members' or something of the sort.
  See You Later,
    Dean H.

Message: 59117
Author: $ David Burkhart
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: China
Date: 06/08/89  Time: 20:33:16

Hungary in 1956, Czechoslovakia in 1968, and now China.
Those of you who are drooling over what a great guy Gorbachev is should
remember that the door can be slammed shut very easily.

Message: 59118
Author: David Fischer
Category: Bulletins
Subject: New BBS
Date: 06/08/89  Time: 23:35:23

Call The black Demesnes BBS
300/1200/2400
(602)/993-7577
24 hr running on a mac
Support most Computers

Message: 59119
Author: $ Peter Petrisko
Category: Answer!
Subject: BURKHART
Date: 06/09/89  Time: 00:39:24

     Methinks you're the only one drooling here.

Message: 59120
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Answer!
Subject: James H./clearing up
Date: 06/09/89  Time: 06:49:09

I meant to say - "we don't have 25 active members!" Right now, we lucky to
have 6 or 7. -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 59121
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Dean/survey
Date: 06/09/89  Time: 06:49:58

I'm always taking private sex surveys. -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 59123
Author: $ Gary Jones
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann/last
Date: 06/09/89  Time: 15:20:56

Ann, So the chinese people are better off living under a dictatorship that
restricts what they can think, eat, or do, than to have to pay taxes and be
free to travel, go to XXXX in their own way, and leave the country if they
want to?

Sounds like pointy headed liberal thinking to me.  I still can't understand
how a comfortable parlor pink can say she's really a Libertarian.  You just
hate conservative governments, lady, and don't know how to say it!

                                                   ****  Gary   ****

Message: 59124
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: homos
Date: 06/09/89  Time: 17:14:33

Re:  "I would bet that 1 out of
every 9 is gay and that 2 of every nine has had some type of homosexual
experience in their lifetime."

Do you really think it's that bad?  Jt said, "two members of Congress (out
of 535) are admitted homosexuals".  I guess the rest are still in the
closet.

Message: 59125
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Todd
Date: 06/09/89  Time: 17:16:15

Re:  "Now you is just like us edjukated folk."

That is spelled "edjamacated"!  Didn't you ever watch the Pop Eye cartoons?

Message: 59126
Author: Bob Williams    NOTE:  This was me  ***
    
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bob Thornburg
Date: 06/09/89  Time: 20:25:12

        Hey, you sound cute.  Want to get together for a drink some evening?
Your place or mine, sweetie?  I'm waiting.  Say something.

Message: 59127
Author: $ Steve MacGregor
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Graduation
Date: 06/09/89  Time: 22:12:17

  Let's all chip in and buy Michelle a "I'M ARE A HI SCOOLE GRADJUIT"
button!
  (By the way -- congratulations, Michelle!)

      =========  Pascal  #(O,O)#  Hoot!  MacProgrammer  =========

Message: 59128
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Answer!
Subject: Gary/China
Date: 06/10/89  Time: 08:18:27

First of all: "I HATE CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENTS!" There, I've said it! I
believe it! I feel it! I hope that's clear. I NEVER tried to hide that fact
- NEVER! You sound like I accidently let it out or something. 
Re: The Libertarians: I do not in the least think they would be a
'conservative government'! My opinion of a C.G. is one that stiffles the
individual's rights. The Lib. party would give the individual's freedoms
back to him or let him be more free from gov. rule! (Less gov. control) How
on earth could that be compared to a conservative government? If I was still
interested in our two parties, which I am not, I would be a democrat -
always was! However, I do not like them either.
Re: China: I truly don't think you can read! NEVER once did I imply they
were better off under a dictatorship! I just don't happen to think that we
are so perfect ourselves to offer them what we have - I.E. Crooked
politicians and outragous taxes! (BTW the Lib. party would do away with
these two!) When I said China rose against it's gov. - I was refering to a
historical fact! Put your glasses on Gary before you comment. -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 59129
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: Ann
Date: 06/10/89  Time: 09:18:11

        You confuse the hell out of me... When you say you want LESS
government and then mention the Democratic party practically in the same
sentence.... you make no sense!  The Democratic party belives in full
government controll practically every conceivable issue.

        As to the post Gary was commenting on, I got the same impression he
got.  I think if anyone should re-read that post you wrote, it should be
YOU!

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*


P.S.  I think I will move Ann's post in question to follow this post, so she
can re-read it herself.

Message: 59130
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: David/China
Date: 06/10/89  Time: 09:22:38

China has been rising against it's government periodocally for centuries
regardless who's in power at the time. I can't help but wonder what they'd
do IF they became democratic? You know - pay high taxes - crooked
politicians - etc. -=*) ANN (*=-

SYSOP Here....  I moved this post so Ann could re-read what she implied when
she said "If they became democratic...."

Message: 59131
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: Ann?
Date: 06/10/89  Time: 09:43:30

When you say, "I.E. Crooked politicians and outragous taxes! (BTW the Lib.
party would do away with these two!)",  Are you implying that a person
running under the Libertarian banner is immune to human frailties and there
would be no more Crooked politicians?  I think it is this unbelievable
mindset that has me against the Libertarian party.  The fact they suggest
they can do no wrong and you imply they are NOT a Democratic form of
government worries me, as in your quote, "I can't help but wonder what
they'd do IF they became democratic? You know - pay high taxes - crooked
politicians - etc. -=*) ANN (*=-" If you don't think the Libertarians are a
democratic form of government, can you spell out just what form of
government they are... As in Communistic or Socialist or Dictatorship or
Tyranny?  Just what type of Government will the Libertarians create?

      *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 59132
Author: Rich Be
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: For Sale
Date: 06/10/89  Time: 15:36:58

Check out message 59092.  If you know anybody, please let them know.
        Thanks ya'll ! ! !

Message: 59133
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: RALLY (ACRC)
Date: 06/10/89  Time: 16:06:14

Arizona Constitutional Rights Committee (ACRC)
Are your guns worth 2 hours of your time?  Well then I expect to see you at
the Gun Rights RALLY June 17, 1989 at the west parking lots of the State
Capital (18th Avenue and West Jefferson St.) at 8:00am to 10:00am.  Speeches
at 9:00am.  Bring the whole family, balloons for the kids....
However, NO Firearms and NO grubby or camoflage clothing.

We need to act now to protect & keep our gun rights.  We do not want to lose
the rights so many died for.  Remember, Gun control works, just ask anyone
from BEIJING!

Tell a friend...pass this post to other boards.... or for more information,
call (602) 954-8713

SYSOP Cliff & Sandy

Message: 59134
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Joke
Subject: ASSault rifle?
Date: 06/10/89  Time: 20:53:50

One of King George's redcoats was overheard talking to a musket totin'
colonist: "What's a peaceful farmer like you need with an assault rifle?"
"GUESS?," replied the minuteman, pointing the weapon at the English soldier.

Moral: Beware when your gov't wants your assault rifles, for ANY reason!

Message: 59135
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: Republicans are okay
Date: 06/10/89  Time: 20:55:39

1989 Oklahoma REPUBLICAN Party Rules Committee Report:  (a few excerpts)

We... oppose Secular Humanism in any form in public schools...

We oppose any legislation that would require the registration, licensing or
confiscation of firearms and ammunition.

The logical system of taxation to meet (our nation's) requirements is based
on consumption, such as a national sales tax, rather than (an) income tax.

Resolve that the 16th Amendments to the constitution (income tax) be
repealed.

We oppose mandatory participation in the social security system.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The above are encouraging excerpts from that Republican document. There are
many more too numerous to post at this time.  Occasionally, there is
evidence that people are waking up and beginning to question government.  I
have yet to see any such forward thinking from Ann's Democratic party.  I do
note that a lot of these are in some form similar to Libertarian ideals, but
without radical overtones.  (I'm going to get it from Dean on that last
statement)  ha ha ha
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 59136
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: Income / Comsumption
Date: 06/10/89  Time: 20:58:49

 Replace the Income tax with a federal sales tax?  Good or bad?  What is
your idea on this...  Why will it work or not work....  POST your thoughts
and maybe spread the word.

     "I believe each individual is naturally entitled to do as he pleases
with himself and the fruits of his labor, so far as it in no way interferes
with another man's rights."
                               - Abraham Lincoln

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 59137
Author: $ James Hawley
Category: Answer!
Subject: Last couple
Date: 06/10/89  Time: 21:43:45

How would you like a 50% tax on food and gasoline?  That would be the
alternative.  

Message: 59138
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: last/James...
Date: 06/10/89  Time: 23:15:53

        50%....  I do not think you are giving it any thought at all.
Look at the rich that pay no taxes....  however, if they went out and bought
a RR or whatever...they would pay federal taxes.  The amount I had in mind
might be a flat 5% for most items and 10% for luxury items.  Figure this on
a national level collected daily, and that is a LOT of loot!  But the fair
part is you would only pay on what you spent with a lot less paper work and
the fear would be gone of the IRS, so stress would be down.  If you lived
high on the hog, you would pay more and collection would be on the spot.
Try to think about it fairly.... shooting every suggestion down will never
change a worsening situation with the present system.

        THINK People.....  You can change the system if we all try together.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 59139
Author: $ Steve MacGregor
Category: Politics
Subject: Taxes
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 01:58:04

  It really doesn't matter what form the taxes take.  You could repeal
personal income tax without implementing a sales tax, but you would have to
increase some other tax (like corporate income tax) to make up for the lost
revenue.
  Face reality:  the government spends money like it's going out of style,
and looks upon the American public as an infinite money supply.  They will
implement *whatever* taxes they want at *whatever* rates they need to in
order to collect the money that they've spent.
  The *only* way out of this is to get the government to *spend* less.  No
more $600 hammers and the like.  Different rules on how government projects
will be executed that don't have built-in money sinks.
  If government spending is reduced, then the taxes we have now will handle
the money requirements just fine, with the rates reduced.
  All the fancy schemes to determine exactly which of my pockets you'll pick
don't help me at all.

          =========  Pascal  #(O,O)#  Hoot!  MacProgrammer  =========

Message: 59140
Author: $ James Hawley
Category: Answer!
Subject: Cliff
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 02:29:46

There are 4-10% taxes on most consumer goods already.  You still have to get
a great deal of money from somewhere...  Gasoline is taxed 33%.  I think the
Value Added Tax in Europe is 15% for most items, and there are STILL income
taxes there.  

Message: 59141
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: I'm back!
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 06:38:14

I'm sure you're all thrilled with that news. Anyway, in spite of a few
personal disasters, we had a great time, and actually breathed some air we
couldn't see! A couple of terrific grandchildren on the Washington coast,
and some fantastic "real" people in Idaho. Might even consider moving there,
since I believe that we couls cut our living expenses almost in half, which
would be a plus on a limited income.
 Speaking of taxes, Cliff, what makes you think that we, the people, could
convince the moneymongers in Washington, D.C. to give up all the loot they
play with that comes to them from IRS? You might talk them into adding a
fed. sales tax, but I have yet to see a "temporary" tax repealed, and that
goes for the income tax as well. It would be a great idea, but, as Steve
said, it wold be better to cut the wasteful spending first, then talk about
cutting taxes. Oh well, dream on.

Message: 59142
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Answer!
Subject: fair tax?
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 07:54:13

        I don't think you guys see the point.  A Consumption tax would
collect more taxes then they get now in a much fairer way as people (such as
the very rich) would have to pay when they spend.  As it is now... thousands
and thousands of people that now do not pay ANY taxes at this time, would be
paying taxes.  Under this system only the middle income people PAY the bulk
and that seems highly unfair.  Obviously if the consumption tax were put
into opperation, the Federal witholding tax would be repealed compleatly.
        
        I see a problem...  it is you people who are satisfied paying taxes
as is now done.  You must like the present tax structure......  What fence
sitters!

        I do agree, that wastfull spending needs to be cut as well, but that
still won't give fair taxation, not when only the middle class has to pay.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 59143
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: In search of
Subject: Thinkers
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 07:55:36

        Apollo needs some forward thinkers!  I am afraid too many on Apollo
now are brain dead.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 59144
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: Happen here?
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 08:11:30

Could this happen here?

        Between 1949 and 1965,  26.3 million defenseless people in Red China
were killed by Marxist leaders.  They were killed with an assortment of
weapons, including the now famous Soviet-designed AK-47 assault rifle.
        Those people were defenseless because their leaders had the
foresight to ban civilian ownership of all guns before the bloodbath.

        The above data was published months ago.... before the BEIJING
event.

        I remember when the Mini-14 by Ruger was called a 'Ranch Rifle'.
Now it is called an 'Assault Rifle' and has been put on the banned list.
Imagine that, a Coyote rifle.....  Now the rancher will have to use a rim
fire 22 with a max capacity of 4 rounds.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 59145
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Oudin
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 08:23:10

In Beijing, people are risking their lives for the ideals on which this
country is based.  When I hear about something like the Tiananmen Square
massacre, it reminds me how lucky I am to live here and how proud I am to be
an American.  It's too bad some people don't know how good they have it.

Message: 59146
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Consumption tax
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 08:29:18

A national sales tax would be highly regressive, unless it were limited to
luxury items.  Rich people do not spend as high a proportion of their income
as poor and middle-class people do.

Message: 59147
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: China
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 08:32:24

Yesterday, I went and joined the demonstration outside the Chinese Embassy.
The problem is, when you protest the Chinese, you feel like protesting again
an hour later.

Message: 59148
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Politics
Subject: Cliff/China
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 08:51:50

In a following post I said I did not like what the Democratic party had
become either. Never liked the Republicans! Clear? Right? I thought our
country 'in general' could be called a democratic one - without everyone
being a Democrat!? 
The statement about China was just that - a statement. Nothing else. China
is in a mess but I'd hate to see them become like we are totally with the
crooked politicians and high taxes! Why should I wish that on them? 
Tell you what -- change my statement to say "I can't help but wonder what
they'd do IF they became like us? Higher taxes etc." That's what I meant.
Sorry the word democratic was so confusing to you. -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 59149
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Politics
Subject: Cliff/answer
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 09:15:08

To answer our little chat man to man (woman!) - do you think that if 3,000
of us Americans demonstrated like those students did, that OUR government
wouldn't shoot a few of us? Think about that. -=*) ANN (*=-
P.S. NO! The Libertarians are NOT saints. But we will be voting them in
office just like we do our two parties now. If they don't work out or are
crooks - we get rid of them. What's the matter with giving them a chance? I
say we have nothing to lose! Remember, they believe in the right to bear
arms! Oh lord, I should have used the word 'bear'!

Message: 59150
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Answer!
Subject: Cliff
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 09:17:08

There is no such thing as 'Ann's Democratic party! Politicans in general are
not the friend of the American people. -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 59151
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff/Lincoln
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 09:18:41

That quote could come from a Libertarian. -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 59152
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Paul
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 09:21:42

Welcome back. Glad you had a good time. 
I have a sister-in-law that lives in Boise - it is less expensive to live
there but so are the wages! -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 59153
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff/#59138
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 09:24:26

Your quote" "THINK people .... You can change the system if we all try
together." Fine - then vote Libertarian! They are for a minimum tax.
                                      -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 59154
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: You I.R.S. fans!
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 09:36:58

IRS: Mugging accomplice?
     Florida securities regulators spent nearly two years scraping together
$1.5 million for defrauded investors of Wynwood Mercantile Corp., which
operated a scam that cost its victims $30 million.  Before the money could
be distributed to its rightful owners, the I.R.S. swooped in saying that it
intended to lay claim to the money to satisfy Wynwood's income tax debt.
(Think of it as if a mugger is apprehended by the police and before the
money can be returned to its rightful owner the I.R.S. confiscates a part of
the bandit's money to pay his tax debt on the stolen money)
                         - Wall Street Journal, March 2, 1989

     I may post more of these for you I.R.S. fans who think it is a fair
system of tax payment.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 59155
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: JT/#59146/taxes
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 09:53:29

        Hey JT, I agree with you for the most part.  Most lower income
people spend ALL their income where the RICH only spend a percentage.
        
        I do not think basic FOOD should have any tax on it.  Other
essentials should only have a 5% or 10% federal tax.  High ticket luxury
items such as cars costing over $20,000.00 should maybe have a 20% federal
sales tax....as they obviously have excess money to burn.

        I just can't see taxing people on money not being spent, such as
saving accounts and interest collected.  Let's face it, inflation eats it up
fast enough.

        I still stand on the idea, people should pay for what they consume,
not for what they earn.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 59156
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann/#59149
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 10:00:20

Ann: "P.S. NO! The Libertarians are NOT saints. But we will be voting them
in  office just like we do our two parties now. If they don't work out or
are  crooks - we get rid of them. What's the matter with giving them a
chance? I  say we have nothing to lose!"

        But Ann, don't we do that now already?

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 59157
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: In search of
Subject: VHS recorder
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 10:21:07

        My brother Bob is looking for a used VHS recorder for his personal
use.  He can't pay much money for it, so it needs to be in the $50.00 range.
If anyone can help him out, his number is 581-1750 or you can leave me mail
on this system and I will pass it to him.
        
        Note:  He has had a bad year....  if you know anyone with a recorder
for sale, pass this post to them.  Thanks in advance!

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 59158
Author: Tanisha Valese
Category: Entertainment/Movies
Subject: Dead Poet's Society
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 11:04:29

Wow!  A very intense movie.  I would recommend it but I can't say it's
great:  it was too sad for me to call it great.  But it is very well done as
far as acting and photograghy.  Oscar written all over it.  It would be nice
to have Robin Williams win but he wasn't on screen enough for me to think he
is the main actor, more like best supporting.  It is more about "seize the
day" than poetry but if you have read the classics, you will be surprized at
their interpretations.
Zee ya,
T. Valese

Message: 59159
Author: $ Todd Reese
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: The Reporters
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 13:12:32

Did anyone catch The Reporters last night?  One part discussed the prison
problem in Georgia (I think).  They have been using this "Shock" short-term
prison sentence for first time offenders.  It amounts to sending first
timers to 90 days of intensive boot camp discipline.  A high number (much
higher than regular prisons) of those who go to this boot camp do not have
problems again.
 
(My, what a novel idea - PUNISH the prisoner and he'll give up his ways of
crime.)

Message: 59160
Author: $ Todd Reese
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff/taxes
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 13:14:59

What's the name of that Arizona group supported by Udall that refuses to pay
taxes.  Let's join!

Message: 59161
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bob Williams
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 13:50:07

RE:  "Say something"

Hmmmmm.  SOMETHIMG!

Message: 59162
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Politics
Subject: Sales Tax
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 14:08:03

Re:  "Replace the Income tax with a federal sales tax?"

I like the idea.  First of all it would eliminate about 50 hours of tax
preparation paperwork every year.  Second, it would treat all spenders
equally.  (We are all spenders aren't we?  Some more than others.)

One thing that is wrong with the Federal tax system is the Federal
government uses the federal taxes to blackmail the state governments into 
doing what the federal government wants instead of letting the state
government do as it sees best.  The 55 speed limit is a good example of
this.  If the state doesn't enforce the federal government's 55 speed limit,
the federal government withholds needed tax dollars from the offending
state.

Personally I think the federal is sloppy fat on our tax dollars.  It needs
to go on a very tight diet.  The problem is the elected officials promise
the people everything, but once they get into office they do as they please
and not what they promised to the people.  Dennis D. is a good example of
this.  Between the two party system I think the Republicans are the less of
the two evils by a long shot.  I wish there was a third option, but I don't
see it in the Libertarian party.

Message: 59163
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Answer!
Subject: James H.
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 14:10:16

Re:  "How would you like a 50% tax on food and gasoline?"

As I see it, that's just about what I'm paying now.  If the tax on gas was
clearly 50%, I think we would see an improvement in our driving habits.

Message: 59164
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Politics
Subject: Sysop
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 14:12:41

Re:  "Look at the rich that pay no taxes...."

Look at the poor who pay no taxes....  That leaves you and me in the middle
paying all the taxes.  A Federal sales tax would be the great equalizer;
everybody would pay.

Message: 59165
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Sysop
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 14:21:33

Re:  "I do not think basic FOOD should have any tax on it."

Who's brain dead?  Everything should be taxed equally.  For what possible
reason should one item be taxed more than another.  The idea that those with
the most money should be taxed more than those with less is a strange idea
of what's fair.  If tax is a percentage, those with more will automatically
pay more.

Message: 59166
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Economics
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 16:30:28

        I still haven't grasped the understanding of economics.  Therefore 
there is not much I can add to this discussion at the present time.
        I would say, though, that less government, like the Libertarians 
want, would, in fact, cut quite a lot of expenses.  (Quite a lot.)
        It seems to me that the current government has Rolls Royce tastes
with a VW pocketbook and an open charge account.  The American people pays 
and pays and the deficit just becomes worse each fiscal year.  Both the 
Repuplicans and Democrats keep boosting our debt.  If I were from another 
planet I would want to go home now.  But since I am stuck here for the 
durantion I reckon I will get involved in helping to promote the Libertarian
Party.
                         Rod

Message: 59167
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Letter
Date: 06/11/89  Date: 16:34:19

       I received a letter yesterday from an old friend of 20 some years 
who I had met while living in New Orleans.  The letter surprised me and here
is one of its paragraphs for your reading enjoyment and education.  He is in
a federal prison in Texarkansas.
"Big Brother is truly watching.  I didn't realize to what extent the 
government was involved in the lives of the citizenry until I got here and 
heard some of the tales of woe.  We, as a society and individually, are 
constantly being watched by a government that has become a government of the
government, for the government and by the government.  In looking at some of
the cases here (note: He works in the law library filing briefs and writs) 
it is obvious that the law has become a joke to be used against the people. 
This place is full of political prisioners, confined for long periods of 
time for little or nothing other than non-conformity.  The people do not 
know what is happening in this country because the government will not allow
them to know until it is too late for them to do anything about it.  But, 
they (government) are watching and prosecuting dissidents at an alarming 
rate.  The prisons are overflowing at every level yet they continue to send 
more people in.  The system is bursting at its seams with no relief in 
sight."


Message: 59168
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Last
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 16:46:55

Sounds like sour grapes to me.  I don't suppose he has any specific
examples.

Message: 59169
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Oudin
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 16:56:57

Yesterday I was outside the Chinese Embassy, where between 1,000 and 2,000
people were demonstrating.  The police were there to guard the Embassy, but
I do not recall anybody getting shot, and I didn't see any tanks.  There
were also, as far as I know, no shootings at the abortion demonstration in
Washington in April, which drew some 300,000 demonstrators.

I guess these facts don't matter to you, though.  You are determined to hate
this country, and will equate it with the regime of the brutal communist
devils in Beijing simply because you want to believe that the United States
is a rotten place.  You make me sick.  When I see the brave Chinese students
fighting for democracy, it makes me proud to be an American.  Proud because
we have democracy, and proud because the Chinese feel it is worth risking
their lives for the ideals on which this country is based.  On the other
hand, when I read your messages, I am ashamed that you are an American.

Message: 59170
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Thornburg
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 16:57:54

The poor spend a higher proportion of their income on necessities like food
than do the rich.  Thus, a sales tax on food would hit the poor harder than
anyone else.

Message: 59171
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 17:10:43

There may be an argument to be made for replacing the ifederal income tax
with a national sales tax.  However, "making the rich pay their fair share"
is not it.  A flat sales tax on all items is just about the most regressive
tax you can have, other than a head tax (i.e., a flat tax per person).  The
regressiveness of a sales tax, as I have pointed out, can be ameliorated
somewhat by exempting essentials such as food or clothing, or by imposing a
higher tax on luxury items.  However, you will still wind up with a
regressive tax.  A luxury tax is likely to affect most severely not the
rich, but the upper-middle class, whom I would guess spend a higher
percentage of income on luxury items than any other group.

The other factor that must be taken into account in formulating tax policy
is the economic incentives and disincentives created by a particular tax. 
For example, a consumption tax would tend to discourage consumption.  One
could argue that this would not be a desirable outcome.  Consumption, after
all, creates jobs producing goods.

Message: 59172
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bob T. on taxes
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 17:40:35

        I can handle tax on food, however, that being a necessity of life, I
do not think BASIC food should be taxed.  This is better than having food
stamps or some other silly program.  I also do not think you should be taxed
on the first 50 thousand for your first home, as again, this is a basic
need.  However, the TAX would apply to everything above that and on your
next home and so on.   However, this is just ideas I am tossing out there
for debate.  
        

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 59173
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: JT on Consumption
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 19:34:21

        If there was NO withholding taken from a persons wages, it would
seem like he had more money to spend.  I think this in some ways would
increase spending in some groups.  I really doubt that a reasonable Federal
sales tax of say 10% would cause a person not to buy that TV he wanted or
not to get that new little car, as this would be the only taxes he would be
paying along with the maybe 5% state sales tax already in effect.  Now I do
recall way back when I was in Rhode Island and there was NO state sales tax
and the people that were against sales tax coming into affect were painting
pictures of doom over the local economy if such a tax were inplace.  Well,
the doom never came and it did not deter me from buying anything.  All this
of course was without even any other tax being rolled back or removed.  
Now the Federal sales tax I am talking about is only to be accepted if the
personal income tax is abolished completely.
        
        When I was refering to RICH people paying their fair share... I
should have said the poor also would have to pay and the so called
millions of middle class that won't even file.  In short, there would be no
excape.  And for this reason, I believe 10% would handle it nicely or the
government would have to learn how to live on a budget!
With everyone paying this way, a middle class income would go further than
it does now....  I predict the economy would get stronger.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*
P.S.  Can you see any possable logic in that James? (Or a maybe?)

Message: 59174
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Forward Thinkers
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 19:53:40

I guess it all depends upon which direction you are pointing, to decide upon
who is going forward and who is going backwards.

Message: 59175
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Last
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 20:41:50

Thank you so much for that pearl of wisdom.

Message: 59176
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 20:53:59

If, for example, people are taxed on consumption but not on income from
savings and investment, then people will spend less and save and invest
more.  The difference may only be at the margin (depending on the size of
the tax involved, the degree of necessity of the consumption, and so forth),
but it will definitely be there.  Of course, it may be a worthy goal to
encourage savings and investment at the expense of consumption, but we
should be clear as to what economic consequences a given tax is likely to
have.

My main objection to a national sales tax, as I said, is that it is a highly
regressive tax.  If every sale is taxed, the poor will be hit far harder
than anyone else.  If necessities such as food, clothing, and shelter are
exempt, then it will hit the middle class hardest.  I don't believe in
"soaking the rich," but I do think they should pay a proportional share of
their income in taxes.  About the best tax system I can think of would be a
flat-rate income tax, with a higher personal exemption indexed to inflation
(to help families with modest means) and a discounted rate -- or no tax at
all -- for capital gains (to encourage investment).

Message: 59177
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: last/savings
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 22:18:36

        If people were to save more as you suggest, then there would be more
money to lend and the cost of that money would be less.  With lower interest
rates, that would spur housing and the American dream to new hights.
        I fail to see how a federal sales tax over a withholding will hurt
the poorer workers, as they will be bringing home almost all of the fruits
of their labor.  
        As to the flat rate tax... I suppose that would be better than what
is in effect now, but we still have one problem, people that don't report
their income now, won't do so under that system either.  The paper work will
still be there, and I know people will lie as to what they made.
        My argument stands on the fact...if you spend, you will pay TAXes!
And since everyone spends, everyone will pay.
        One of my goals would be to revamp the I.R.S. system.  I am not
against paying taxes, but if they were fair and more evenly divided among
the citizens of this nation, they would be considerably less of a burden to
the ones that now pay.
        But please explain the FLAT rate system a little more, as I may not
be seeing the point you are trying to prove. 

SYSOP Cliff

Message: 59178
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Politics
Subject: Is the IRS for you?
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 22:58:25

I.R.S.----  Is this fair, you be the judge!

Dennis Levine, an admitted inside trader asked a court to allow part of his
federal income taxes to be paid with his ill-gotten profits.  A federal
judge rejected his effort to pay taxes with those funds, saying the profits
belonged in a constructive trust for victims of the scheme.  An APPEAL of
that decision by the I.R.S. and others is pending in the Second U.S. Circuit
Court of Appeals in New York.
                     - Wall Street Journal & the Freeman Letter (April 89)

SYSOP Cliff

Message: 59179
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Hard/Software
Subject: IRS computer system
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 22:59:23

I.R.S. Hurting?
     According to David Pryor (D-Ark), chairman of the subcommittee that
oversees the I.R.S., the agency's computer system is badly out of date and
headed for a crash in the early 1990's.  He says he doubts they can come up
with the funding necessary to install a new system.  Citing a recent GAO
study, Pryor said the I.R.S. was unable to tell the GAO how much it had
spent on a $120 million computer project it began several years ago and then
cancelled.
                     -Spotlight, March 89

Sysop Cliff

Message: 59180
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: When Life begins....
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 23:06:10

When LIFE begins
     The government, it seems, requiers cattle used for breeding stock to be
capitalized.  This means all costs associated with a cow must be recorded.
Fine.  But when, asked the dairymen, do we begin accumulating these costs?
Replied the government: A calf is a calf at the moment of CONCEPTION.  All
costs and profits relating to cattle must be computed from that date.
     (It all depends, apparently upon who-or what-one is.)
                             -the Freeman Letter, May 89

SYSOP Cliff 

(I hope you guys are enjoying these since Apro Poet is not here. Ha ha ha)

Message: 59181
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: JT/specific gripes
Date: 06/12/89  Time: 00:30:30

        It was the first time I heard from him in years.  I guess he just
wants someone to write him (as he indicated in the remainder of the letter).
I will reply to him and ask specifics.  You can believe that.  As he works
in the Law Library and files documents he should be able to come up with
some.  This should be interesting.  I will keep you informed.
        I am just wondering though just what he can or cannot say in a
censored letter.  I have no idea of such matters at this time.  He gets out
in several years or so, depending.   -Rod

Message: 59182
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Taxes
Date: 06/12/89  Time: 00:39:07

        Again I say that when government is cut down in scale, the savings
will be such that people will not have to come up with all that much.  Or if
they do then I'm sure that dental, medical and insurance will be able to be
included in what people are being charged today.  -Rod



Bulletin Board command:$C


Rod, God & Bob Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 393
Author: $ James Hawley
Category: Rod's thoughts
Subject: Heat
Date: 06/08/89  Time: 11:24:40

Getting rather hot isn't it.  In Sundays newspaper it was forcasted that
will very likely have a week or two at 120 degrees this summer.  If you
convert it to Celsius it would sound much better...

Message: 394
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Rod & Heat
Date: 06/08/89  Time: 22:19:25

        Rod better get use to it, it will be a lot hotter where he is
headed.... or just maybe, he is there now!  One might think Phoenix is hell
for a locksmith.
        
        The dork deserves it!

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 395
Author: $ James Hawley
Category: Shit-Chat
Subject: Last
Date: 06/09/89  Time: 01:13:35

My, were're a happy camper, aren't we?

Message: 396
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Cliff/insults
Date: 06/09/89  Time: 07:10:20

I'd say that small vacation sharpened your insult wit! -=*) ANN (*=-
P.S. But where is Rod? He needs to defend himself. 

Re: Hell! If you don't believe in such a thing, it does not exist! If
someone can prove it does, then I'll believe! Of course, I believe in
Heaven!

Re: Hell again. Why would anyone want to believe in someplace like that and
spend their entire life trying to avoid it when the whole aspect of it is
'Unknowable?'

Message: 397
Author: $ Ralph Blehm
Category: Shit-Chat
Subject: Ann
Date: 06/09/89  Time: 13:01:07

Tomorrow is also unknowable so who wants it?
                   GOD RALPH

Message: 398
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Ralphy/last
Date: 06/10/89  Time: 08:38:47

I, for one, want tomorrow! -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 399
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Last/Ann/tomorrow!
Date: 06/10/89  Time: 09:57:20

        Well Ann, you say you want tomorrow!  And tomorrow is when I had
planned for you, a trip to the Zone. So, I guess, you want the Zone as well!

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 400
Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
Category: Shit-Chat
Subject: Last
Date: 06/10/89  Time: 20:48:03

        Nah, Cliff, don't put Ann in the Zone for wanting to experience
tomorrow .......
        Put her in the Zone only if she wastes her tomorrow that she wanted.

Message: 401
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Cliff/the zone
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 09:32:34

How in the fugg did the Zone enter into this conversation? Geeze! 
                         -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 402
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Waste
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 09:34:48

I do not waste a day - always on the computer! Time is shortening towards my
new computer! About 15 more days till C-Day! The 'C' can stand for computer
or 'cash' - doesn't matter! One buys the other. -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 403
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Shit-Chat
Subject: Last on Waste
Date: 06/11/89  Time: 10:06:07

        I just saw your posts for the day... What a waste!
                        INTO the Zone with you!

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 404
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Hell/heat/locksmith
Date: 06/12/89  Time: 00:46:58

        Yeah, I'm going to quit this locksmith shit.  I'm starting a new job
tomorrow.  I'll be laying blacktop for the City.  Or I could do hot-tar
roofs or work in a kitchen.  It's fun being an economic slave.  Or maybe I
will move up north and freeze my balls off for seven months of the year.  Or
maybe I'll steal my van, collect on the insurance and become a
pig-capitalist landlord.  Or I could become a hooker and sell my carpets at
park and swaps nationwide, going where the weather is nice.

        Cliff, if I had a face like yours, I'd rub shit on it in order to
look half-way decent.   -Rod