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Apollo BBS Archive - July 28, 1991
Mail from Melissa Dee
Date: 07/29/91 Time: 20:33:34
[A]bort, [N]ew only, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read
Yeah, pretty weird. I thought he did a nice job with children's show but
now, there ain't no way in hell they'll keep his show. What actually
happened anyway? I mean, from what I've heard, he was in an adult movie
place and was "exposed". It's not like he was hurting anyone.
[A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply
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1It is said that Pee Wee exposed his pee wee. I don't know. I can't make a
2:value judgement on this.
3:
4: Rod
5:end
Edit command:S
Saving message...
As for the message to which you replied...
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Mail from Steve Albany
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 23:44:02
[A]bort, [N]ew only, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read
Welp, we're off to Tucson.. Here's our address & phone number:
2000 E. Roger Rd, Apt E39
Tucson, Az 85719
(602) 795-8669
Pass it on to Randy & Dean as well.. Ciao!
[A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Zap
Post Office command:JN
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Message: 7693
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Ann on Me
Date: 07/29/91 Time: 06:51:07
"I don't profess to know how old the earth is, but I'll bet Daryl is wrong!"
Rule One: Never bet on anything less than a sure thing.
Rule Two: Always keep your mind open if you are going to be a supporter of
free-thinking.
If I were to give to you evidence that could prove, or at least strongly
suggest, a young earth, what evidence would you be willing to accept?
Message: 7694
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Mike / Mt. St. Helen
Date: 07/29/91 Time: 06:56:10
Have you ever seen the video, "Mt. St. Helens - Evidence for Catastrophe?"
Within it, they show a canyon that was dug out as a result of catastrophic
conditions. In short, a canyon that is 1/40th the size of the Grand Canyon
was cut out in one day. And it has all the geologic characteristics that
you find in the rock layers at the Grand Canyon. If one did not know the
real age of this mini-canyon and went in to gauge it's age, they would say
that it took several hundreds of thousands to a few million years to create.
Daryl ("Everytime an evolutionist looks at a wombat, I think God smiles
because I think He made it just for them.")
Message: 7695
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Dean / Erosion Etc.
Date: 07/29/91 Time: 06:59:19
"If the earth is only 6000 years old was there some purpose in creating it
with OBVIOUS SIGNS of MILLIONS OF YEARS of eriosion, earthquakes, sediment
buildup, and volcanic activity?"
Excuse me, Dean, were you there? And if not, then how can you suggest that
the "evidence" that the erosion, earthquakes, etc. are OBVIOUS SIGNS of a
millions-of-years-old earth?
Message: 7696
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Gordon / Drs.
Date: 07/29/91 Time: 07:02:17
The tapes are certainly available for you to borrow. I think you will
find their presentations to be very interesting. PS: I just got another set
of 11 lecture tapes (total 12 hours of viewing) [THAT HAVE NO COPY
RESTRICTION PLACED UPON THEM, MJ] that I have yet to make copies of. Those
will be available to you soon, also. This series consists of six speakers.
Message: 7697
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Beau Dog/Evidence
Date: 07/29/91 Time: 07:03:59
Does that mean that you have proof that the earth is millions of years
old?
No that just means that you have volcanoes and evidence of earthquakes.
Message: 7698
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Gordon / 1,000,000+
Date: 07/29/91 Time: 07:15:45
"But who can deny the evidence of simple and easy-to-understand mechanical
things like millions of years of erosion?"
Because it is not evidence of millions of years of erosion.
Fossils and rock layers exist in the present. We do not have the past, and
therefore can not PROVE anything about the age of the earth. None of us
were there. Whether the belief is in a young earth, or in an old earth, the
entire matter boils down to one's belief system.
Some theistic evolutionists prefer to use data provided by evolutionist
scientists (who are for the most part atheists), and use that data to
reinterpret Genesis 1-11, and in doing so, they are attempting to tell God
what He MEANT to say.
Evolutionists and Creationists have the same scientific data. It all
depends upon what that scientist's belief structure is (be it the religion
of creation/Judeo-Christianity, or in the religion of evolution/atheism/
agnosticism). I have seen both sides of the coin, having been brainwashed
by evolutionary thought in high school, and then struggling with the concept
of God as a result; and then seeing how well the idea of Plan/Purpose/Design
can be supported and IS supported.
Message: 7699
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Ann/LISTEN!
Date: 07/29/91 Time: 07:23:46
Listen listen listen. "You mean to tell me that the creationists believe tha
God created a perfect world complete with a record that it's millions of
years old, when it really isn't and they actually believe this?"
You mean to tell me that you believe that the world evolved over millions of
years based solely upon the opinion of a lot of men who don't know
everything who weren't there, and therefore cannot prove THING ONE about the
age of the world?
The "record" does not PROVE anything.
"...and they actually believe this?"
Message: 7700
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: what he *meant*
Date: 07/29/91 Time: 07:46:54
Daryl, I don't know why you have such trouble with the bible-believing
evolutionists. After all, you've many times told us what God *meant* to say
in the bible.
Message: 7701
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Answer!
Subject: Daryl
Date: 07/29/91 Time: 09:28:54
Re: your --- if I were to give to you evidence that could prove, or at least
strongly suggest, a young earth .....?
You do me a disservice when you imply I have not already heard a young earth
theory. Not only have I heard many, I also believed it for a long time.
So I do not feel that I have a closed mind because I do not believe it now.
And I think that the people that do believe it are trying to justify the
Bible and it can't be done in the face of all the evidence that says the
earth is millions of years old! *>>> ANN O. <<<*
Message: 7702
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Daryl
Date: 07/29/91 Time: 09:34:55
A.O.> "I don't profess to know how old the earth is, but I'll bet Daryl is
wrong!"
D.W.> "Rule one: Never bet on anything less that a sure thing."
OK - I bet a million dollars then!
D.W.> "Rule two: Always keep your mind open if your are going to be a
supporter of free-thinking".
Of course, you think you are a free-thinker because you think the earth is
young, right? hahhahahaahahaha - Opps! There go those macros again!
*>>> ANN O. <<<*
Message: 7703
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Daryl on evolution
Date: 07/29/91 Time: 09:49:51
I believe science DarylYou weren't there when the Bible was created either
and you believe in it don't you. *>>> ANN O. <<<*
Message: 7704
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Daryl
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 02:45:33
Yes, I'd be interested to see the tapes. I can also make copies to view at
leisure, so I wouldn't have to keep them all that long. So how do I get
them?
Message: 7705
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Beau Dog
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 09:15:06
But tell me where I have ever directly contradicted Scripture.
You can't, as a Christian, be a Bible-Believer and a Theistic
Evolutionist, for once you accept the concept of Theistic Evolution, you
cease believing in the Bible, for it says that God created the world in six
days. The Hebrew word "yom" can mean day or it can mean a long undetermined
period of time. BUT! If the word "yom" is used along with a number (as in
"first 'YOM'," as it is in Genesis) then it can only be understood to mean
one literal day. Furthermore, the words "evening and morning" along with
"first day, second day, &c." further insists the interpretation of YOM here
to mean a literal 24-hour day. I almost feel as if the creation account was
written as if God were spelling it out to those He knew would come later,
questioning His creative process.
Furthermore, in the Bible, God says, (paraphrase) 'I worked for six
days and rested one, you do the same.' He did not HAVE to take six days to
create the world. But He did, and He tells us that as He worked six days
and rested one, we are to do this also. He did not say to work six "million
years" and rest one "million years."
Message: 7706
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Ann
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 09:21:46
You say that you already have "heard a young earth theory," actually
several. But how many of them USED the scientific record to show just how
much SENSE it makes?
You say that the validity of the Bible cannot "be done in the face of
all the evidence that says the earth is millions of years old."
Ann, I ask you to provide for me one piece of this so-called evidence
that can prove, in a manner that NO CREATION SCIENTIST could effectively
refute, that the earth is millions of years old. I expect that you will not
find a single one. We cannot prove the earth is millions of years old
because we live in the present, not in the past. We do not dig up dinosaurs
that exist "millions" of years ago; we dig up dead dinosaur bones that exist
today. Evolution is a religion, because evolution relies on pure blind
faith (and a lot of doctoring of the evidence to prop up that faith -- such
as Brontosaurus, Nebraska Man, Java Man, Peking Man, "Lucy," etc., etc.).
I'm sorry, Ann, but IMHO, I feel you have been duped into worshiping at
the altar of evolution. It's just a faith and nothing more.
Message: 7707
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Ann
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 09:29:05
No, I don't claim to be a free-thinker, at least not in the sense that
you and Rod espouse (and fail to practice what you preach). I claim to be a
person who has come to the knowledge of God. I have my own ideas and
opinions, but I subject those ideas and opinions to God's word, the Bible,
when it is necessary to do so.
I used to be what you call a free-thinker. I really wasn't, but in
your terminology, I was. Nobody is really a free-thinker. Everyone has
their own personal beliefs and pet dogmas. I would suspect that the truest
form of "free-thinker" would sway like a reed at every opinion that
presented itself. This "free-thinker" would have no firm convictions of his
own, and would therefore have no basis to take a stand on anything. He
would have to agree with everyone, and disagree when compelled to do so. In
other words, a weak-kneed, non-self-thinking, wimp.
Even among the meekest persons I know, I know no one that fits into
this category of "free-thinker." Everyone's thinking is in bondage to those
things which they already believe.
Message: 7708
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Ann
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 09:41:01
You cannot even equate the Bible with rocks and trees and fossils. Did
the Bible EVOLVE? Or was it CREATED? Was there a big cosmic explosion in a
Scribe's shop some 2,000 years ago that caused ink and papyrus to come
together to form words?
I believe the Bible is true because I believe that it supports itself
and is supported by what we find around us in the world. I believe the
words in the Bible are from Someone Who was there and does know everything.
You believe that scientists are true, although they have nothing but
their own opinions as a benchmark by which they must believe and practice
and attempt to fit all the scientific evidence into. For example,
evolutionists have been searching for years to find the supposed connection
between apes and man. What have they found? Nothing. What do they label
it? "MISSING!" You see, even though they have not found it (and I believe
they never will) and have no evidence whatsoever that this "link" even DOES
exist, they MUST label it missing, for their dogma SAYS that apes evolved
into humans. They have no evidence, so they have to label the LACK of
evidence as MISSING evidence, and accept it by blind faith.
Read "Evolution: A Theory in Crisis," written BY evolutionists.
Message: 7709
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Gordon / Tapes
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 09:42:51
Just leave me your phone number in mail (unless it is in the White
Pages), or get my number from the White Pages (I need to re-enter it and
will try to remember to do it today.)
Message: 7710
Author: $ Michael James
Category: Entertainment
Subject: "Creation Scientist"
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 13:00:24
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Message: 7711
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Last
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 14:40:52
What do you find so funny? Evolution is not science, evolution is belief.
Message: 7713
Author: $ Michael James
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: last
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 16:33:01
Why do you have to spout pseudoscience to be a Christian? Why can't you
just believe God could do whatever He wanted to make it appear however He
wanted instead of coming up with these elaborate rationalizations that only
other Christians (and not even most of THEM) would take seriously?
Message: 7715
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Michael James
Date: 07/31/91 Time: 01:37:39
Thou haste made a valid observation in your last post....although you have
mentioned it before, somewhere around 1985.
X-Rated mos Bulletin Board command:$C
Message: 4943
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Quickie
Subject: Pee-Wee's Adventure
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 18:44:08
Anyone else catch the picture of Paul Rueben's in the paper? I don't know
why he told people who he was. You never would have guess.
And does anyone know what happened? I mean, I assume from the vauge
coverage that he was watching a "dirty" movie, wanted a release, and when he
exposed himself, was arrested. Does anyone else know more?
So sad. I thought he really did a nice job with his children's shows. They
are already off the air, as well as Disney pulling all his videos from
sales.
Message: 4944
Author: $ James Hawley
Category: Answer !
Subject: last
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 23:50:28
Pee-Wee's Big Adventure. Personally, I don't think he was hurting anyone,
so who should care?
X-Rated mos Bulletin Board command:PEC
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Subject:LAST
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1: Who should care??? Every God fearin', flag lovin' red blooded American
2:parent. That's who!
3:
4:
5:
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Message: 4945
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: mos-Chatter
Subject: LAST
Date: 07/31/91 Time: 01:40:15
Who should care??? Every God fearin', flag lovin' red blooded American
parent. That's who!
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Message: 1739
Author: $ Michael James
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: movie/last
Date: 07/29/91 Time: 11:04:58
I haven't seen it, but I've seen a couple messages on Apollo suggesting that
it's pretty good.
Message: 1740
Author: $ Peter Petrisko
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: LAST
Date: 07/31/91 Time: 00:36:59
I must have missed those messages, Michael. Have they scrolled yet?
Zak's FILm & Video Bulletin Board command:EQ
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[C]hit-Chat [F]ilmography
[H]orror [J]unk Culture
[K]omedy [M]ass Media
[R]eview [S]poiler Review
[T]rivia
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1:What scrolled? Did I miss something?
2:
3:
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Message: 1911
Author: $ Wild Barbarian
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Does Sandy ever get
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 17:46:12
[A]bort, [B]ack, [R]ead or [S]kip:Abort
End of the Universe Bulletin Board command:RC1912-
Unsuccessful read
End of the Universe Bulletin Board command:R1911
Message: 1911
Author: $ Wild Barbarian
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Does Sandy ever get
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 17:46:12
to go to Marvale Sam.????? My roommate works as a unit Sec't in the
emergency room there, usual 12 pm to 12 am.......
End of the Universe Bulletin Board command:JN
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Message: 77226
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: PeeWee Herman
Date: 07/29/91 Time: 05:26:41
If he was looking for an excuse to stop doing the character, he sure fond
one! Another career down the drain for the sake of lust and convenience. Oh
well, I never cared much for him anyway.
Message: 77227
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bill on mail
Date: 07/29/91 Time: 09:11:52
Thank you very much for the (ahem) information. I will run down and get that
magazine today!! (caugh) *>>> ANN O. <<<*
Message: 77228
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Doggy on Reubens
Date: 07/29/91 Time: 09:15:21
Re: your ... "Perhaps he was looking for an excuse to stop doing the
character?"
Well he sure succeeded in stopping that! I mean - like RIGHT now!
*>>> ANN O. <<<*
Message: 77229
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Thad on Porn
Date: 07/29/91 Time: 09:19:16
Re: your ... Getting turned on in itself is not necessarily evil -- but
violence, murder, burning buildings and small children are what turn on some
people"
HUH? What has any of that got to do with being turned on sexually?
*>>> ANN O. <<<*
Message: 77230
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rod
Date: 07/29/91 Time: 09:22:51
Re: your .... "what about sheep?" --- hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Message: 77231
Author: June Walters
Category: Joke
Subject: polish people
Date: 07/29/91 Time: 17:04:21
A polish girl goes up to her father and says, "Papa, papa, I'm pregnant!"
Her father responds, "Are you sure It's yours?"
Ha Ha.
Message: 77232
Author: Thad Coons
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Porn
Date: 07/29/91 Time: 18:09:32
You might be amazed at the things that turn some people on sexually...
Rape is certainly a crime of violence, but for many (if not all) those
who commit it, the violence and the sense of power are part of what turns
them on... I don't know all the motives of child molesters, but there is
certainly a sexual component somewhere... I don't know that murder turns
some people on, but warfare, combat, or other forms of physical danger are
reported to have that effect on some, and there is ample evidence to
suggest that pornography encourages the fantasies which inspire these kinds
of behavior.
Message: 77233
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Religion
Subject: Beau/Holy Grail
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 02:48:04
Yes, this was a good thumbnail sketch of the thesis presented by the book.
There are so many different topics and suppositions in there that I thought
it best to look at the Gospel part separately. It's a long, long trail from
Rennes-le-Chateau to Jerusalem. (And thanks for the book recommendation!)
The "Holy Grail" (San Graal) was explained as a kind of pun on "Blood Royal"
-- "Sang Real".
I'm often skeptical of conspiracy stories, and in the book I found parallels
with something I'd seen before that put me in a more skeptical mood. The
"something I'd seen before" was Stephen Knight's theory of the identity of
Jack the Ripper, which you and Roger Mann may remember reading on Multics.
(I always want to call him "Stephen *King*"! Knight, king, what the heck.)
Henry Lincoln, the instigator of the Grail project, is a television
documentary writer for the BBC. So was Stephen Knight. Both books were
about secret societies, conspiracies and coverups by prominent people.
Freemasonry appeared in both books. Both of them centered around the secret
marriage of an extremely prominent person, and the issue of that marriage.
And to support both theories, a fair amount of evidence was adduced from
subjective interpretations of alleged symbolism in paintings and so forth.
The parallels are suggestive only. If it looks a bit like a wooden decoy
duck, it doesn't necessarily have to be one. It might be a real duck.
Message: 77234
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Religion
Subject: Beau (2/2)
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 02:49:02
And in fact Lincoln and his associates, while they've tackled a much bigger
subject, have also done a great deal more research and amassed a lot more
evidence -- unlike Stephen Knight, who started with one man's word-of-mouth
story (which was retracted some years later), and only presented the
evidence that showed it *might* have been true, while he carefully ignored
other evidence proving that it wasn't.
The idea that Jesus had a bloodline -- or that there might be a secret
society of people who believe that he did -- seems more within the bounds of
credibility, certainly far less absurd, than the notion of Queen Victoria's
personal physician ganging up with a well-known painter and gallivanting
around London in a coach carving up prostitutes. Whatever the truth of the
matter, Lincoln et al did come up with a very interesting book.
Rennes-le-Chateau is a whole subject in itself, independent of any Biblical
suppositions, Knights Templar, Knights Arthurian, Freemasons, Rosicrucians,
Priories of Sion or whatever. After the Holy Grail business, Henry Lincoln
investigated the coded information on what were said to be copies of the
documents that the priest discovered in the church at Rennes-le-Chateau. He
found that along with other messages, they presented a set of geometric
patterns. Further investigation showed that dozens of structures for miles
around, some of them very ancient, seem to have been deliberately located to
form gigantic five- and six-pointed stars and other figures. He theorizes
that this might be an enormous "temple" dating perhaps from Neolithic times.
Message: 77235
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Roger Lantern???
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 02:49:32
To complement this reference, I should mention that "Green Man" is a very
common name for pubs in England.
Message: 77236
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Thad/carpenter
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 02:50:51
Thanks for the info about the carpenter reference. I didn't look far enough
forward in the Gospels, and I was handicapped by having to hunt blindly.
Somewhere, I have a large Bible with a concordance at the back. OK, it
isn't quite Cruden's, but at least it's halfway decent for looking up
references. We do have other Bibles around, but the big one unfortunately
disappeared at the time of our move, and we haven't found it yet.
"The Big Bible" belongs in a larger category of Things that Mysteriously
Disappeared in the Move and Haven't Been Found Yet. To begin with, this
list was naturally quite long. Inevitably it shrank as Things were found in
hidden boxes and various odd and unlikely places.
The cause of this confusion was partly the fact that we're cluttered people
anyway, and partly the very disorganized way that Things were packed by the
movers. Our previous house was a split-entry, with the kitchen, living- and
dining-rooms and bedrooms on the top floor and a garage, den, family room,
utilities and another room on the lower floor. Unfortunately the packers
did a sloppy job of labeling some of the boxes, especially from the lower
floor. The boxes had pre-printed lines to be checked off if something came
from the "living room", "master bedroom", "boys' bedroom", "bathroom" etc.
(only *one* bathroom?), but it didn't have a line for "family room",
"utility room", "den" and so forth. So half the stuff from the lower floor
ended up being labeled "basement" -- even if it came from the garage.
Message: 77237
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Thad/Things (contd.)
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 02:51:53
In one respect I'm not complaining at all: we had almost zero breakage. But
we still had to sort all this mess out. It wasn't helped by the fact that
the packers seemed to have put very unlikely combinations of things together
from different rooms into the same box. Thus we found knives and forks
packed with blankets, shoes with screwdrivers, papers with perfume and
photographs, speakers with ski poles, and bath towels with brass bugles. If
you opened up a box and saw, say, Toilet Tissue on the top, you could never
guarantee it came from the bathroom. You had to go all the way down to the
bottom, where you might find Telephones, Tinsel, and a Toaster on the way.
And you could *never* rely on the "contents" label.
As our List of Lost Things shrank, there were certain Things that remained
stubbornly at the bottom of it and refused to be found. These Things became
almost legendary in our house: the China Dolls, the Caulking Gun, and the
Trampoline Legs for example. (We *had* the Trampoline. We just couldn't
find the Legs.) I joked to Jane that I was missing two "Bibles": the big
one and my "Inside Macintosh". But the latter turned up recently.
One of the most persistent was the Light Bulbs. Jane swore up and down that
we couldn't possibly have missed them in our search, that the movers must
have thrown them out because they were too difficult to pack safely. But
these too turned up a couple of months ago. In view of this track record, I
have every hope ("faith"?) that the Big Bible is there somewhere. It's the
only Thing left on the list. The only Thing we can remember, that is...
Message: 77238
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Religion
Subject: Thad/Mark
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 02:52:43
TC>>I would be interested in your evidence that part of Mark was
TC>>deliberately suppressed, though.
Apparently there are several versions of Mark around. Scholars argue over
whether the last few verses (Mark 16:9-20) containing the Resurrection were
actually written by Mark or not, because they are absent from several early
manuscripts. In other versions, a different, shorter ending is substituted.
One widely held view is that verses 9-20 are a later addition, but that
isn't entirely convincing because if you omit those verses, the Gospel comes
to a very abrupt and unsatisfactory end. At any rate, several manuscripts
show clearly that editors have been at work.
The evidence that part of Mark was *deliberately* suppressed is in a letter
from Bishop Clement of Alexandria which was found in a monastery near
Jerusalem in 1958. It was quoted by Lincoln et al, complete with the actual
text that had been suppressed, and a lot of background and motivation. It's
a bit long, so I can't post it now; I'll try to do it tomorrow.
Message: 77239
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Religion
Subject: Paul/faith
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 02:53:56
Thanks for your comments, Paul.
I guess the thing that puzzles me is how to define the precise boundaries of
what people have faith *in*. What I mean is this. It's possible to believe
that Scripture is perfect, and all of it is 100% accurate. But in order for
Scripture to be transmitted to us accurately, we also have to trust that
ordinary human beings have done a number of things reliably. These include
accurate printing (and even that goes wrong sometimes; I can point to a typo
or two in at least one Bible I have, admittedly quite trivial ones, but
there have been notorious errors, including one printer in 1631 who missed a
word from the Seventh Commandment and listed it as "Thou shalt commit
adultery". Charles II ordered all 1,000 copies of the book recalled, and
the printers were fined three thousand pounds, a ruinous sum in those days.)
Much more to the point, we have to depend on early copyists getting
Scripture right (and they didn't always do it the same: different versions
of the Gospel of Mark are known, for example). And those of us who don't
read Greek and Hebrew have to depend on other men translating Scripture
correctly. This isn't necessarily a trivial matter. There are arguments
over whether the Hebrew in Isaiah 7:14 means "a *virgin* shall conceive", or
simply "a *young woman* shall conceive". Do we know that we ourselves
interpret the words "correctly"? How much do we rely on what the people
around us say that Scripture is *supposed* to mean? Jehovah's Witnesses for
example hold that blood transfusions are wrong, based on one Biblical verse.
Message: 77240
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Religion
Subject: Paul/faith (2/2)
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 02:54:46
If we say that all of Scripture is correct, perhaps the worst problem of all
is sorting out its own inconsistencies. How for example do we decide
whether the genealogy of Joseph given in Matthew 1 is correct, or the one in
Luke 3? Surely they can't both be correct?
It's true on the other hand that if we read through Scripture, a strong
series of central messages appear. And when these messages seem to conflict
in significant ways, it's possible to find methods of reconciling them: as
long as we treat them in a general sort of way, allowing for a bit of
allegory here, some fuzziness around the edges there, and more than a few
errors. But in order to do that, we have to factor in general knowledge,
history, background, interpretation and so forth. I don't think that doing
that negates the idea of "faith" at all. But I'd have to say that "faith"
in what *is* true is a more generalized thing covering a great deal more
than just the words we read in our particular translation of Scripture.
Message: 77242
Author: Mark Adkins
Category: Question?
Subject: Paul Savage
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 04:39:09
PS>> "...all we really need is Scripture and faith to explain Scripture."
First of all, how do you determine what is scripture and what is not? There
are only about ten jillion versions of the Bible, and even if you could get
everyone (Catholics, charismatics, Methodists, etc...) to agree on one
particular *wording* there still remains the problem of interpretation. Who
determines what to take literally, what to take as a metaphor, the meaning
of symbols, the lessons of stories, the precedence of verse (i.e., New
Testament over Old, and so forth), and similar problems? It is simply not
possible NOT to interpret the Bible because, in a very trivial sense,
typographic symbols are meaningless until they are assigned meaning, and in
a less trivial sense, collections of typographic symbols (words, sentences,
paragraphs, fables, entire Books of the Bible, the Bible as a whole) must
also be given interpretation, on variety of levels whose importance is
mutually determined.
It's very well for you, Paul Savage, to say that *your* particular
interpretation is THE correct one, because you are "inspired by the Holy
Spirit." But of course, many others say the same thing, some of whom you
would probably call Christians, and yet their interpretation is not yours.
Message: 77243
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Annie/porn
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 05:42:27
I've got a problem Annie. Help me understand why you, as a woman who
seemingly has it all together when it comes to equality and justice for
women, can have such an accepting attitude when it comes to pornography. In
the light of the fact that virtually every pornographic movie, book,
magazine or whatever panders strictly to the gratification of the male at
the expense of the modestly, privacy and respect of the female, and succeeds
in degrading and humiliating the female by placing her in a submissive
position to the often animalistic behaviour of the male, I just don't see
the consistency in your attitudes. Could you please explain your acceptance,
or at least indifference to this stuff?
Message: 77244
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Gordon on Man
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 05:46:36
Interesting aside there, Gordon, except for the fact that, in Apollo PC
thinking, that shold read Green Mann, not Green Man. Just a subtle little
difference.
Message: 77245
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Religion
Subject: Gordon/Mark
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 05:55:28
I, too, have heard about the possibility that Mark's Gospel had some
additional verses added.
I am satisfied, though, that the God who hung the world and all the stars
on nothing (check Job), and who created all that in them is, would not have
too much of a problem maintaining the integrity of His Word through a few
translations. I grannt that some of the Bible must be taken by faith as
opposed to complete (?) understanding (since we will never have complete
understanding in this life), and am more than willing to do just that,
without researching every little jot and tittle. I believe that confusion
enters the picture when we stop reading God's Word and begin reading all
sorts of opinions by various authors who think they have an inside track on
what God really meant by this or that.
Message: 77246
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Religion
Subject: Gordon/faith
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 06:01:45
"Faith" is, I suppose, different things to different folks, depending upon
the depth of the one defining it. I would, however, point out the Biblical
definition, found, (I think) in Hebrews, with an aside from Romans.
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not
seen." So, according to God, faith is a very real, concrete thing, It is
both substance and evidence, not some ethereal, debatable nonentity.
Alsom the aside (at least I think it's from Romans. If I took the time to
look it up, the system would hang up on me). "Without faith, it is
impossible to please God".
Message: 77247
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Religion
Subject: Mark Adkins
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 06:10:01
(Nice of you to show up once in a while, Mark)
I have a belief, probably a very personal one, that God speaks to each and
every one of us through His Word, the Bible. By that I mean simply that if
I look at the Bible as God's love letter to me, His child, and read it with
prayer, He will open the eyes of my understanding and speak a very personal
message to me. That message may well not be exactly the same one He gives to
you, or to another, since to each it is a very personal letter, one intended
for my (or your) eyes only.
In the light of this, I am willing to allow that some others may have a
different interpretation of the words contained in some portions of
Scripture, since they read it also as a personal letter. I'm sure that God,
in all His wisdom, allows for these differences in interpretation (as
opposed to contradictions in His Word), and will straighten out whatever
needs straightening out, when we stand before Him one of these days, as we
all will,some for reward, some for judgement.
Message: 77248
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Pauley - answer
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 08:00:00
To clarify my stance - I believe porn should be for both men and women - NOT
just aimed at the men.
Re: your... ".. and succeeds in degrading and humiliating the female by
placing her in a submissive position."
Not that I have seen a whole lot of porn - what I have seen did not do that
in the least!
Not that it is considered porn - when we had the Playboy channel, it was
just the opposite - the women kept 'love slaves' of the men!
I realize that porn also consists of child explotation, rape, violence etc.
some of the time. But the people that this appeals to is much in the
minority and I cannot see banning all porn because of a few warped
individuals! *>>> ANN O. <<<*
Message: 77249
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rod / Wasting Tears
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 09:48:29
Yup-yup. Desert life, water conservation and all, ya know. I at least
have to make up SOMEHOW for my dripping faucet in the kitchen.
Message: 77250
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rod on Christianity
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 09:58:21
If everyone became a Christian tomorrow, then there would not need to be
a fraction of the prisons we have today. Lawyers would not be necessary.
Murder would be at a near nil. Mothers would not kill their young. Racism
would not exist. We would not be up to our armpits in personal and national
debt. We would be able to walk down any street at night. Suicide would not
exist. Crack babies wouldn't be crack babies. Sickos like the one in
Wisconsin would be unheard of. Neighbors would help neighbors. There would
be no unlisted telephone numbers because there would be no obscene phone
calls. Gangs would not exist, at least not in the sense of the Crips,
Bloods, and the Mafia, i.e. criminal gangs.
You're right. We certainly wouldn't want that. If we all became
Christians, then we couldn't watch Donahue or Hard Copy.
Message: 77251
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Religion
Subject: Ann on Mike
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 10:04:51
Stop quoting the Bible to support your views, Ann. Practice what you
preach.
Message: 77252
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann on Rod
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 10:06:11
I never pass up any of Rod's messages. I read what he has to say. And
I feel pretty much the same way about Rod that he feels about me. Is that
fair, or what?
Message: 77253
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann on Me
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 10:15:19
Thank you for the compliment on my post. That was certainly a
surprise.
However, in the arena of my beliefs, I feel that is pointless to argue.
If you don't think that my beliefs hold any water whatsoever, then that is
your opinion and you are most certainly welcome to have it.
But if Christians are right, and if that Last Day comes, then please do
not place the blame on anyone but yourself. I believe that Christianity is
a point worth pondering, even to someone who has rejected it in the past,
for I feel that the reason that most people leave the faith is because they
don't get their questions answered. And when they don't, and they leave,
they get "answers" from people who are not Christians. And in getting those
"answers" and believing them, they conclude that Christianity did not have
the real answers anyway. And it was not because it doesn't, but because
those whom they came in contact with were not prepared to give answers. I
just wish that every non-Christian or former Christian could look at the
faith with new eyes, and talk with someone who really knows what he
believes. I guess that's just wishful thinking on my part, just as much so
as Rod wishing that Christianity would be wiped from the face of the earth.
Wishes are just that; wishes. Christianity will still be here after Rod is
long gone, and there will always be those that will scoff and mock it. But
dreams always keep hope alive in one's heart, regardless of their motives.
Message: 77254
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Answer!
Subject: And the winner is...
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 10:43:28
I am pleased to announce the winner of the 1991 Bill Burkett Apollo
Foundation grant, Thad Coons.
Mr. Coons seems to be full of baloney, but he's conducting himself well and
that's all that counts.
Congratulations, Thad. Here's hoping you give your new-found $tatus a good
workout!
Set 'im up, Cliff.
Message: 77255
Author: $ Michael James
Category: For sale
Subject: Free Kitten
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 13:05:57
I already have three adult cats, so I have to give away the cute adoreable
playful affectionate HOUSEBROKEN calico kitten that my housemate brought
home. She's really adoreable, but I don't get to see my own cats anymore
because she chases them around the house when they come in. Please adopt
her, she loves people.
Message: 77256
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Answer!
Subject: Wheeewwww
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 19:00:28
I finally caught up after being backlogged for about a week!
Ann, what was the name of the magazine Bill suggested? Paul- not all
pornography is degrading, violent, etc. I strive to show loving couples
that respect each other in MY stories, however I'm sure you take your big
red stamp marked "SEX" and block out the whole page...
Mike Carter on women...Gordon seemed to handle that one pretty well. I only
have one question: what does your wife think of all this? I had always
thought she was sort of feminist actually (judging a book by it's cover, of
course, but that's all I had to go on) since she doesn't use make-up, I
usually see her in jeans, she joins you with the shooting activities. Does
she mind when you call her girl?
OH, the Pee-Wee stuff. I asked some questions on the COS sig since I hadn't
seen anything on here (until after I posted on COS, of course).
Message: 77257
Author: Thad Coons
Category: Religion
Subject: Reference...
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 20:22:53
I 'cheated' on the reference to Jesus being a carpenter's son...
They came from a footnote in "Jesus the Christ", by James E. Talmage
(a 'Mormon' author). I did look them up first myself, though.
Message: 77258
Author: Thad Coons
Category: War!
Subject: Porn
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 20:39:09
Be thankful you haven't seen much of it. One of the problems that I see
with pornography is its effect on the young.. those who have reached the abe
age of puberty and are becoming sexually aware.. and curious. Their
experiences at this time have a strong influence on their ideas and behavior
later on. Just reading about sex (or seeing pictures..or whatever) has a
stimulating effect (a 'turn on', if you will), and since the human sex drive
is more or less continuous and powerful, this stimulus can become addicting.
Those who continue to indulge find that it becomes 'tame', and go for ever
bigger, better, or more perverse thrills. Pornography has a tendency to warp
individuals and create the type of people that the 'violent' stuff appeals
to: that is what is wrong with it.
Message: 77259
Author: Thad Coons
Category: Answer!
Subject: Foundation grant
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 20:47:28
Gee, thanks!
I mean that in both senses, of course. I do appreciate it and will
try to continue making intelligent posts and avoid being nasty to people...
Full of baloney... What did I say???
Message: 77260
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: War!
Subject: Prectical Peripheral
Date: 07/30/91 Time: 21:41:58
Great. This is the first modem I have owned in a little over 8 years
that has gone bad. First the speaker went dead on it, no real biggie
except I had already replaced it once after taking it back..the second
one's speaker died as well. Now, I am happy to say the analog circuit
is on its way out. It';s printing messages like it was drunk. Slurred
worrrrdsss apppearr eeeverywheere.
Take my advice, ***NEVER*** buy anything made by PRACTICAL PERIPHERALS.
Not one, but two and not just my two either.
Buyer beware.
Message: 77261
Author: $ Peter Petrisko
Category: Question?
Subject: THAD
Date: 07/31/91 Time: 00:40:50
You seem to know the ins and outs in regards to porn. The various
genres and effects, and so on and so forth. How do you know so much about
porn? Lots of reading, or.....?
Well, the latest issue of "Nekkid Babes on a Meat Hook" just arrived in
the mail so I must be getting off. Apollo, that is.
Message: 77262
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Religion
Subject: Thad/Gospel (1/5)
Date: 07/31/91 Time: 00:49:29
The following is a translation of passages from a letter found in 1958 by
Professor Morton Smith, of Columbia University, in a monastery near
Jerusalem. The letter is from Saint Clement, one of the early church
bishops who led the catechetical school in Alexandria in the last two
decades of the second century. It was written to a follower of his named
Theodore, who had been criticizing a sect called the Carpocratians who
flourished in Alexandria at that time. In the letter, Clement quotes a
passage from a "secret" Gospel of Mark that is not known from any other
version.
You did well in silencing the unspeakable teachings of the
Carpocratians. For these are the "wandering stars" referred to in the
prophecy, who wander from the narrow road of the commandments into a
boundless abyss of the carnal and bodily sins. For, priding themselves
in knowledge, as they say, "of the deep [things] of Satan," they do not
know that they are casting themselves away into "the nether world of
the darkness" of falsity, and, boasting that they are free, they have
become slaves of servile desires. Such [men] are to be opposed in all
ways and altogether. For, even if they should say something true, one
who loves the truth should not, even so, agree with them. For not all
true [things] are the truth, nor should that truth which [merely] seems
true according to human opinions be preferred to the true truth, that
according to the faith.
Message: 77263
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Religion
Subject: Thad/Gospel (2/5)
Date: 07/31/91 Time: 00:50:34
[As for] Mark then, during Peter's stay in Rome he wrote [an account
of] the Lord's doings, not however, declaring all [of them], nor yet
hinting at the secret [ones], but selecting those he thought most
useful for increasing the faith of those who were being instructed.
But when Peter died as a martyr, Mark came over to Alexandria, bringing
both his own notes and those of Peter, from which he transferred to his
former book the things suitable to whatever makes for progress towards
knowledge [gnosis]. [Thus] he composed a more spiritual Gospel for the
use of those who were being perfected. Nevertheless, he yet did not
divulge the things not to be uttered, nor did he write down the
hierophantic teaching of the Lord, but to the stories already written
he added yet others and, moreover, brought in certain sayings of which
he knew the interpretation would, as a mystagogue, lead the hearers
into the innermost sanctuary of that truth hidden by seven [veils].
Thus, in sum, he prearranged matters, neither grudgingly nor
incautiously, in my opinion, and, dying, he left his composition to the
church in Alexandria, where it even yet is most carefully guarded,
being read only to those who are being initiated into the great
mysteries.
Message: 77264
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Religion
Subject: Thad/Gospel (3/5)
Date: 07/31/91 Time: 00:51:34
But since the foul demons are always devising destruction for the race
of men, Carpocrates, instructed by them and using deceitful arts, so
enslaved a certain presbyter of the church in Alexandria that he got
from him a copy of the secret Gospel, which he both interpreted
according to his blasphemous and carnal doctrine and, moreover,
polluted, mixing with the spotless and holy words utterly shameless
lies.
To them [the Carpocratians], therefore, as I said above, one must never
give way, nor, when they put forward their falsifications, should one
concede that the secret Gospel is by Mark, but should even deny it on
oath. For "not all true [things] are to be said to all men."
To you, therefore, I shall not hesitate to answer the [questions] you
have asked, refuting the falsifications by the very words of the
Gospel. For example, after "And they were in the road going up to
Jerusalem," and what follows, until "After three days he shall arise,"
[the secret Gospel] brings the following [material] word for word:
Message: 77265
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Religion
Subject: Thad/Gospel (4/5)
Date: 07/31/91 Time: 00:52:57
"And they come into Bethany, and a certain woman, whose brother had
died, was there. And, coming, she prostrated herself before Jesus and
says to him, "Son of David, have mercy on me." But the disciples
rebuked her. And Jesus, being angered, went off with her into the
garden where the tomb was, and straightway a great cry was heard from
the tomb. And going near, Jesus rolled away the stone from the door of
the tomb. And straightway, going in where the youth was, he stretched
forth his hand and raised him, seizing his hand. But the youth,
looking upon him, loved him and began to beseech him that he might be
with him. And going out of the tomb they came into the house of the
youth, for he was rich. And after six days, Jesus told him what to do
and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over
[his] naked [body]. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus
taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God. And thence arising, he
returned to the other side of the Jordan."
The Carpocratians were a sect who believed in the experience of every kind
of fleshly pleasure in order to attain transcendence of the senses.
Clement's specific motivation in keeping secret this particular passage from
Mark is very clear. It's easy to see what meaning the Carpocratians would
read into it. In reality it doesn't have to bear any sexual meaning at all.
Morton Smith himself, a researcher into "magical" practices, saw it as a
description of a typical mystery school initiation -- a ritualized symbolic
death and rebirth that was common in the Middle East at the time.
Message: 77266
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Religion
Subject: Thad/Gospel (5/5)
Date: 07/31/91 Time: 00:54:37
The incident clearly refers to the raising of Lazarus from the dead, which
is otherwise described only in the Gospel of John -- and rather differently.
If in fact this incident was just a ritual, then no "miracle" was involved.
Clement of Alexandria was revered as a saint in the early centuries of
Christianity. By the end of the Middle Ages, however, the Church had
clearly changed its mind about him, and Pope Sixtus V revoked his
"sainthood" in 1586. (This wasn't the same Sixtus who built the Sistine
Chapel, but his namesake of a century later.) Apparently some of Clement's
own views had come to be regarded as heretical by that time. But whatever
his own beliefs were, Clement of Alexandria clearly lived by the precept
that "what you don't Gno can't hurt you".
Message: 77267
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Religion
Subject: Paul
Date: 07/31/91 Time: 00:55:07
Speaking of Gnowing things, I thought your comments to Mark reflected quite
a Gnostic view. But I certainly can't argue with that.
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Message: 77268
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Answer!
Subject: DARYL
Date: 07/31/91 Time: 01:56:20
Re: "If we all became Christians tomorrow..."
If we all became Christians tomorrow we would kill each other off
within a week. All in the name of God, of course.
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Message: 77269
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Mark
Date: 07/31/91 Time: 02:00:37
Hi Mark, I see you can't keep away from trying to educate those Christians.
It's a freaky world.
Rod
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