Apollo BBS Archive

Apollo BBS Archive - July 23 - 24, 1990

Mail from Jeff Beck
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 01:38:40

"Life was a damned muddle...a football game with everyone off-side and the
referee gotten rid of..."
[A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
 1:I came once for Jesus, God dammit, but Satan is the boss.

End of the Universe Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 1393
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Question?
Subject: Melissa
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 01:52:59

Did you do the Frug?

Message: 1394
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Rod
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 01:56:43

It (Tropic of Cancer) can't be any worse than "The Jungle" (Upton Sinclair).
You think Miller had it bad?  (He probably did but the contrast may still be
great).
 
I have made temporary arrangements until I can get another place.

Message: 1395
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Storm
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 01:57:47

I read by candlelight and ate cookies.  It wasn't bad.

Message: 1396
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: living conditions
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 03:55:35

What bothered me more than the semi-impoverished state of the trailer was
the attendant squalor.  It is one thing to be poor (though I don't suppose
the term could truly be applied in this case): there was nothing to do about
the swamp cooler; my roommate (the owner of the trailer) did not have enough
money to get air conditioning.  There was nothing to be done about the size
of my room; it was, I have been told, about the size of a dorm room.  I have
never seen a dorm room, but I know that it was about 1/3 the size of the
room at my previous residence, and the latter was of average size for a
bedroom.  Though for a fact, there was no room for any of my furniture (I
had NO furniture in my room, except for a bed of course), and consequently
no room for any of my belongings or supplies that I had stored in the
furniture (except that I put my socks, etc., on the closet shelf.  I also
did not have room for my library, and this tried me sorely.
There is also the holes in the roof under the cooler.  The roof is rusted
through in a number of spots, and he doesn't have enough money for a new
one.  We got on the roof one day intending to fix it, and you couldn't pay
me to be a roofer in Phoenix in the summer.  Though I had a cap on and some
sun-block, we were up there for quite a while, moving the cooler, scraping
the rust away, locating holes, tarring, etc..  The roof leaked even when
there was no rain; in high humidity, it filled faster than it would
evaporate, and the float which was supposed to stop overflows did not work
properly.  Despite our best efforts, the roof still leaks.  The only leak
was in the middle of my room.  The ceiling panel had been removed, exposing
the decrepit structure behind it, the yellow water stains, the perennially 
...soaked fiberglass insulation, with a hole torn in the plastic covering it
to allow the water to escape.  Below this was placed a pot; the drip was
maddening at night, and we often turned the water off at night to prevent
this, until he had the clever idea of stretching a length of coaxial cable
down from the hole into the pot; this allowed the water to drip down the
cable instead of falling from a distance.
The water exacerbated another problem; several months before I moved in, he
had owned a cat.  The cat pissed on everything, including the carpet in my
room.  He had not cleaned it up when it happened, and it had set, and though
it was several months dry, it stank to high-heaven still.  The water made it
worse.  When I first moved in, I did not have my bed moved in yet, and he
took a couple of old mattresses from an outside shed and I used those on the
floor in my room.  Well, I kept waking up in the morning smelling like
someone had taken a ladle full of underarm sweat and poured it over me
during the night.  I imagined that his linens were merely dirty (he is, as
you can surmise, a complete slob), and replaced them: the problem reoccured.
 I examined the mattresses, and discovered the cat piss problem for the
first time; there were huge stains on it.  Those went out, but the problem
remained, because the damned cat had pissed all over the carpet.  I
purchased some rug cleaner (rather naively), tried vacuuming, to no avail. 
There were two layers of carpet, and older, thin decrepit original layer,
which he was using as carpet padding, and an upper carpet, of plush brown. 
took up the upper layer, which wasn't tacked down, and threw it outside.
The piss, though, had soaked through to the bottom layer.  I got him to help
me rip that up, including the stuff in the closet, and discovered that part
of the odor was due to this ancient, moldy carpet and the decaying padding
underneath it (so, after all, there was some padding).  This was tacked
down.  He had more of the plush brown carpeting laying around outside,
(though covered), though his padding was rotted.  The floor, which was of
particle board, could not be mopped, but it was unnecessary, as there was
only one small spot where the cat piss had come through, and the odor was
negligable.  I covered it with plastic bags, before we laid the new carpet
(sans padding, though it was unnecessary, as the new carpet was quite
thick).
Then there was the cockroach problem.  A genuine infestation, in the kitchen
and bathroom.  These two rooms were the worst; the other rooms were merely
covered with scattered junk, though in desparate need of vacuuming and
dusting; in the bathroom, he had a huge plastic garbage can filled with pop
cans which he intended to collect on at the recycling center.  Of course,
the roaches loved this.  Everything was scummy; from the toilet covered with
urine and hair (on the rim, around the base...), to the bathtub, to the
insides of the cabinets, to the counter tops...in short, every square inch. 
Oh, and there was also a litter box full of old soiled litter, and some
petrified chunks of cat feces.  I threw the box outside, along with the
can of cans, cleaned EVERYTHING, inside and out, vacuumed, dusted, ordered
things.  You may ask why did all of this work for him; I did not; I simply
could not live that way; it was enormously depressing, far worse than the
lack of air conditioning.

I sprinkled boric acid powder around the baseboards inside the cabinet under
the sink (which I had also cleaned and vacuumed.  If this seems excessive,
consider that vacuuming removes the roach eggs.  I also insisted that we put
the stoppers in the drain holes when not using the sink or tub.  Guess what?
The roaches dissappeared from the bathroom.  The kitchen was far worse, if
you can believe that.  I should mention that before doing all of this I
tried bug spray, with almost no success.  Ordinarily I would throw out a
roach, but that was impractical here and they constituted a health hazard. 
Despite what Rod's friend told him they do carry diseases.  Anyway, there
were always dirty pots and dishes and so forth, stacked in the sink,
scattered around the kitchen, and lots of food crumbs, on the counters as
well as on the floors.  Also, the pantry closet was full of food crumbs, and
the roaches loved it there too.  Cleaning out that kitchen was the worse
work of my life.  At first, I merely cleaned up the countertops, insisted
that dirty dishes be put directly into the dishwasher, sprayed bug spray all
over, mopped the floor, insisted that garbage be taken out every night, and
put some boric acid behind the refrigerator, where roaches loved to
congregate.  This helped somewhat, but they were still around in force.  I
thought perhaps that it would be necessary to caulk under the sink where the
boards did not meet and where many of the roaches seemed to come from (or at
least dissapear to, but this did not turn out to be necessary.  The worst
part was cleaning under the cabinets, inside them.  The roaches, I
discovered, loved to cling to each other in masses, up in the dark back
corners of these cabinets.  There was scum everywhere.  I cleaned all of
...crap out one day, it took me four or five hours.  It was enormously
grotesque, especially as I had to crawl back through under these cabinets to
thoroughly clean them.  I laid boric acid under them.  I cleaned out the
pantry from hell.  
I vacuumed the main room, where he usually ate; lacking a dinner table (!),
he would take the food into the other room, holding it on his lap, and of
course the food would get all into the carpet; more feasts for the roaches. 
Only after all of this was done, did the roaches dissapear from the trailer
altogether.  And I mean dissapear.  I never imagined I would succeed in
wiping them out, but apparently all it took was cleaning the place, keeping
it clean, and laying some boric acid.  Roaches go where the food is.  You
can spray all day long, and if the place is still a food feast for them, you
won't get rid of them. I also made a dinner table and insisted we use it.
Finally, I cleaned, vacuumed, dusted, and organized the place except for his
room, which now looks like some sort of queer anthropological museum, as
well as a strange sargasso sea of all the junk he keeps.  About 10 percent
of the stuff from the rest of the trailer was added to his little collection
when I cleaned the place.  The rest of the trailer, though still decrepit,
looks decent now.  Though the door to his room is kept closed most of the
time, I still peek into it from time to time; it's like a time capsule of
the way the rest of the trailer was.  It also stinks, since he often sleeps
in the bed, bathing in the mornings, thus leaving all day's sweat in the
bed, and rarely changing the linens.

Message: 1401
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Answer!
Subject: Last
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 07:53:43

Wimp.

Message: 1402
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: T & A
Subject: T for Tornado
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 09:34:20

 Wind thrashing,
 my window, broke.
 My purple curtains
 mommy made, choke
 in the rain. And
 the door wants in.
 I run to open
 then my chin
 hits the wall
 by the dining room.
 Cannot breathe,
 then mother booms,
 "Where are you?
 Oh GOD!" looks out
 the door to find
 nothing, and shouts
 again. I yell
 no wind, no air
 no screams, I move
 to kick the chair.
 She runs over
 bends down to see.
 Sighs, lifts me up
 "Safe, now, with me."

Message: 1403
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Answer!
Subject: Last
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 09:35:14

I found the tornado poem.  It should have a space after every fourth line
but I thought it'd look better all in one message.

Message: 1404
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Storm
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 22:28:50

I thought it was a good storm too.  We do get spectacular storms around
here, and where we live it is very open, so there's lots of wind as well.
One storm we had last year managed to blow my daughter's play house several
yards under the patio.  It's quite a hefty sort of big plastic climbing
frame about four feet on a side.  The wind tends to distribute quite large
objects (trash cans, old cardboard boxes) around the landscape.  It's a
mystery where some of these things come from, since there aren't many houses
out here.  But these objects aren't much of a problem.  You just sit tight
and wait for the next storm, and away they go again.

A couple of weeks back I noticed that the ground wire to our TV antenna was
down, so I fixed it up right away.  Lightning is much more enjoyable seen
from a distance.  Jane's brother, who lives in Illinois, had his satellite
dish struck by lightning a few weeks back.  It conducted all the way into
the house and they lost all of their major appliances -- stove,
refrigerator, washer and dryer, everything.  Luckily they were insured.

We didn't lose power during the storm, although the lights flickered a bit
from time to time.  This is a *big* improvement over the last house we lived
in, in Westford, Massachusetts.  There, every major storm seemed to cause a
power outage -- or "outrage", as I would call it, because we were often
without power for several hours, or even a couple of days on occasion.  Lost
power meant no water, either.  It was caused by tree branches falling onto
power lines.  We've never lost power for more than about an hour in Phoenix.

I didn't actually dance in the rain, but I did go out in it to plant an
empty dog bowl on the ground outside.  It collected 0.6 of an inch of water,
which is a *very* good dollop of rain.  It was twice what they measured at
the airport (0.3 inch).  Probably even more fell, since the storm was
already under way when I took the bowl out.

My daughter isn't quite into *enjoying* storms yet; thunder still makes her
a bit nervous.  (She's six.)   We have managed to get her a bit interested
in the idea of counting seconds between the flash and the thunder to measure
how far away the storm is.

My father used to enjoy a good storm, and so did his sister Grace.  If there
happened to be a storm when he was visiting his sister, the two of them
would stand and watch it together out of the window, while Grace's husband,
who was mortally scared of thunder, would be hiding under the bed.

I've asked some people why there is this characteristic smell after a storm
in Phoenix, but I've never had a definitive answer.  Is it an ozone smell,
or is it caused by the rain itself?  I find it quite refreshing.

Message: 1406
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Answer!
Subject: last
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 23:04:11

It's the smell of this mud they call "cleeche" or whatever.
If you take a pan of water out to a dry patch of it sometime...
pour the water on it and take a good wiff.

Message: 1407
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Answer!
Subject: Gordon
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 09:28:11

See, I TOLD you!  I was close.  I had heard it was all the dust in the air.

Message: 1408
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Storms
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 18:01:20

So you did, Melissa, that's right.  I'm gonna give Mike's experiment a try.

Incidentally, I spoke too soon about power failures.  Last night's storm
seems to have been a lot bigger than Saturday's one, and our power went out
from about 4:30 am to about 6:30.

Message: 1409
Author: $ Jim Lippard
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: storms
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 20:55:42

We had a power failure here last night, too, but only for about 20 minutes. 
The transformer on the pole behind my parents' back yard made a really nice
buzzing sound one the power went on and off.

End of the Universe Bulletin Board command:EC

You chose Chit-Chat

Subject:Jeff/Story

Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
 1:I see you've already started on your book.  Good job, interesting reading.  
 2:
 3:By the way, the person who told me that cock roaches carry no diseases was :
 4:
 5:                Harold George Scott, Ph D
 6:
 7:        A retired colonel [serving with US Army Infantry and Field
 8:        Artillery during World War II; US Army Medical Service and
 9:        US Air Force Research and Development Command during the
10:        Korean War; US Public Health Service Commissioned Corps and
11:        US Army Special Forces during the Vietnam War] and Lecturer in 
12:        Community Medicine at Tulane University, Dr. Scott previously served
13:        as Professor of Tropical Medicine at Tulane and as Director of
14:        Environmental Health for the City of New Orleans.  Author of 
15:        numerous publications, mainly in the field of tropical
16:        diseases, he resides with his wife, Bettie, in Metairie, La.
17:
18:Anyway, I enjoyed your story it really held my interest and sounded like a 
19:chapter from a Henry Miller book.
20:
21:Just remember, the more miserable you are the better the book will be. 
22:Ho.ho.

Subject:Melissa

Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
 1:Mighty good poem.
 2:end

Edit command:S

Saving message...
The message is 1411

End of the Universe Bulletin Board command:EC

You chose Chit-Chat

Subject:Gordon/storm

Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
 1:A lightening death would be a lightening death, so to speak.
 2:end

Edit command:S

Saving message...
The message is 1412

Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 67759
Author: Hans Glans
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Daryl/67616
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 01:27:19

You think that is a bad neighborhood. I live fairly close to there, and it
isn't that bad. I shop at that store...And have seen Marvin Davis. 

Message: 67760
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Question?
Subject: the GT
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 01:40:54

What TIME??

Message: 67761
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Thornburg
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 01:41:51

Cakes of Light.

Message: 67762
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Question?
Subject: Jim Lippard
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 02:03:57

Did you ever formulate a satisfactory definition of "science"?  As I recall,
there was some question as to the feasibility of defining it in a manner
that is both complete and completely accurate, or at least in a manner that
is general and yet allows one to distinguish between science and non-science
in all cases.

Message: 67764
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
Subject: Cliff/GT
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 08:12:54

Would it be all right if I brought my wife, Mary, to the GT ? We would be
a little late (8:30ish) --- but it is a way that I could attend the GT and
still have fun.

Message: 67765
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
Subject: Last/Roger
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 08:59:39

        Re:  Would it be all right if I brought my wife, Mary to the GT?

Of course Roger, we want to meet your better half!

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 67766
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
Subject: Guest List
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 09:02:03

Ann Oudin
Beauregard Dog
Bill Burkett
Bob Thornburg
Daryl Westfall (unsure)
Dean Hathaway
Gordon Little
James Hawley
Jeff Beck
Jeff Lochansky (Mad-Max)
Kim Paskiewicz
Melissa Dee
(( space ))
Mike Carter & Wife  (Fang)
Mike Kielsky
Pat Stoddard
Paul Savage
Ralph Blehm
Rod Williams
Roger Mann & Wife  (@ 8:30)
Shirley Bear
Steven Carls
Todd Reese                      And just maybe Jack Flash  (hope)

Message: 67767
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
Subject: last
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 09:03:01

        Who else is bring their better half?  Thornberg?  Savage? and?

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 67768
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: The SYSOP Speaks
Subject: Amazement
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 10:16:33

        Here on Apollo's B-Day, Bill Burkette is going to pick a Non-$tatus
user and give that person *Free* $tatus for one year!  Not one of you
Non_$tatus users who use this board, even showed any interest... Sigh!

        Bill Has already paid me, thou, I have not cashed the check yet,
till he makes his selection on the 31st of July!

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 67769
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
Subject: Lots of People!
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 10:20:50

        Remember, the Ladys get to sit first...  I want you guys to be
gentlemen!

        Every one use the 'Dial' or 'Irish Spring'... CLOSE Quarters!

        See you on the 28th, starting at 7:00 pm.......

                        *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 67770
Author: $ Jim Lippard
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: science
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 10:25:44

Nope.

Message: 67771
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
Subject: Close quarters
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 14:13:31

Maybe the guys should sit down first so that the ladies can sit on their
laps?  

Message: 67772
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
Subject: cliff/gt
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 14:28:11

Well she wants to meet all these folks I keep muttering about.

Message: 67773
Author: Jeff Lochansky
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: $tatus user
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 14:41:13

I didn't know us NON Status users were to show interest in a way of stating
so, I thought he was going to give the award to the NON $tatus user that
that imprest him the most, not by who showed interest.
But if that is the case, YES I AM INTERESTED, I am going to be a POOOOOR
pennyless college student in 4 more weeks. not that I have any money now,
but it shure isn't going to get better.
So here you have one NON-$tatus user extremly interested in a years worth of
$tatus on Apollo.
The Mad Max

Message: 67774
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cars
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 17:23:43

   I read a book about the history of the Ford family and its cars while I
was on vacation. It had a lot of interesting info. One example of something
I didn't know is the explanation of how the Edsel automobile became a
failure. It seems that the first year's production of Edsels was made by
dropping an Edsel body on every 61st Fairlane which came down the
production line. The result was that every worker on the line had to shift
gears a little as the Edsel came by and use parts from different bins, etc{ 
The Edsels were also an addition to the normal load, no less Fairlanes
were being produced to allow time for the Edsel, so it was a double
imposition on the line workers. The result should have been predictable. The
Edsel had such quality control problems that it became a laughing stock. The
cars styling became a scapegoat, but I personally think that the slightly
restyled later models of the car are rather handsome. There are several of
them for sale at a little lot on Cave Creek Road just north of Hatcher if
you want to see what they looked like.
  These later models probably enjoyed better quality control as a result of
having their own production lines also. The market the car was designed to
fill began to recede about the time it was introduced, which helped to speed
its demise.
  Does anyone here have any experience with the Edsel? I would like to hear
about it.
   See You Later,
      Dean H.

Message: 67775
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Exploding ammo
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 22:33:01

Interesting information from everybody.  I think this is one risk that
doesn't get adequate publicity...  perhaps because not everywhere is as hot
as Arizona.  Still, that accident a few months back wasn't even in high
summer.  BTW Mike, I wasn't suggesting that the accident might be fictional:
"story" = "account", with no implication as to veracity.  I would certainly
agree that when handling guns, or anything else with similar potential, it's
a good idea to *understand* how the thing works, *why* it works that way,
and then *think* about the kinds of things that could go wrong.

What prompted me to ask about this was that I bought some ammo while
shopping one lunch time and left it in the car during the afternoon -- since
I wouldn't expect my employers to approve of my bringing explosive items
into the office.  My wife came into my office and said she had bought a
plastic toy that lunch time and left it in the car, and did I think it would
melt in the sun?  So I said "well, I certainly hope not!"  That might have
sounded sympathetic, but it wasn't exactly the answer she wanted to hear!
So after she'd finished beating me over the head I told her she didn't have
too much to worry about.  If her purchase suffered from too much sun it
would just wilt a bit.  If mine suffered from too much sun it would go off
bang.  I had it on the floor of the car with a plastic bag lying loosely
over it, so it was shaded.  I'd be interested to measure temperatures in a
car in the hot sun.  The *air* temperature in a car gets high enough, but
I'm sure that items directly absorbing the sun's rays get a lot hotter.

Message: 67776
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Exploding ammo
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 22:34:08

The cookoff account from Jeff seems to illustrate a problem with the
technical manual I was mentioning.  It does warn about firing ammo over 135
degrees.  It does warn about cookoffs.  But it doesn't seem to have put the
two together.  For potential cookoff situations it has the following advice:

     (1) Attempt to remove the cartridge before ten seconds has elapsed.

     (2) In case of a cartridge chambered in a very hot rifle which can
         neither be fired nor removed, all personnel except the operator
         will remain clear of the rifle for a minimum of 15 minutes.

     (3) The operator will keep the rifle trained in a safe direction.

The inference here seems to be that a cookoff will just fire the round
spontaneously at an unpredictable time within 15 minutes.  It doesn't seem
to take into account that the round may not only fire, but also generate
excess chamber pressure and blow the gun up, as it did to that luckless NCO.
Seems as if better advice, if the cartridge can't be quickly removed, is to
set the gun down pointing in a relatively safe direction and then EVERYBODY
run like hell!

Message: 67777
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
Subject: Kids
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 22:35:19

Will there be any kids at the GT?  Jane and I were trying to figure out what
to do about our daughter, who is six.  We have three options:

     1. I can come on my own and leave Jane to look after Sarah.
     2. We can both come and bring Sarah.
     3. We can try to find a babysitter so we can both come and leave Sarah.

Picky people might point out that there *are* other options.  For example,
we could both come and leave Sarah to look after herself.  But Sarah herself
would object to that.  Then, feminists in particular would point out that
Jane could come to the party on her own and leave me to look after Sarah.
However, *I* would object to that.  Anyway, we're investigating option 3.
Any comments?

Message: 67778
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Answer!
Subject: Gordon / Veracity
Date: 07/23/90  Time: 22:57:33

No, but I wanted to leave no doubt in anyones mind about it.
The worst thing that can happen to anyone is to get killed
by a fictional danger.
Th{ *air* temperature really has no direct affect since the
temperatures measured even in the hottest cars fall within
their advertised and required safety limits.
 
This is another rock in my craw.
 
The NOAA and agencies like it measure the temperature only of
the surrounding air, and at 12- 32 feet above the ground.
My complaint here is air temperature is fair enough, but they should
publish a "practical" temp... the temp that WE feel at 0-5 feet next
to the asphalt!!!
Same with gun ammo. Measure the casing temp..forget the AIR...AIR is
the very BEST insulator there is! The casing will be a true measurement
of the danger.
 
-       -Mike

Message: 67779
Author: $ Steve MacGregor
Category: Answer!
Subject: Beck/sines
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 00:04:35

  It's hard to draw pictures on a BBS, but I'll try.
  First, imagine a clock face, and the minute-hand, with the hand pointing
at the "3".  Now measure the angle from the "3" to the clockhand (measuring
clockwise).  Should be zero.  Let's calculate the sine of this angle.
  Measure the distance (vertically) from a horizontal line through the
center of the face to the point of the hand, and the distance (horizontally)
from a vertical line through the center to the point of the hand.  You
should get zero, and the length of the hand, respectively.
  Now you can calculate the trig functions of the angle.  Sine = the
vertical distance divided by the length of the hand = 0/1 = 0.  Cosine = the
horizontal distance divided by the length = 1/1 = 1.  Tangent = vertical /
horizontal = sine / cosine = 0/1 = 0.
  Do this for any other angle, remembering that the distances can be
negative (you measure the vertical distance *up* to the point of the hand,
for instance, so if the point is below the horizon, the distance *up* to it
is negative).
  With the hand between the "1" and "2", the two distances are equal:
1/sqrt(2).  Sine = cosine = 1/sqrt(2).  Tangent = 1.
  As the hand moves (counterclockwise), the angle increases from 0 to 360
degrees, and the sine of the angle goes from 0 (at "3") up to 1 (at "12"),
down to 0 again (at "9"), down to -1 (at "6"), and back to 0 (back to "3"),
all in a smooth sine-wave.  Then the function repeats itself as the hand
continues to move, if you count angles greater than 360 degrees.
         ======  Pascal  =(O,O)=  Hoot!  MacProgrammer  ======  

  To complicate things a bit, angles are often measured, not in the familiar
degrees, but in radians.  With an angle of one radian (about 53 deg), the
distance from the "3" along the *curve* of the rim of the clock would be the
same as the radius (length of the hand).  There are 2*pi radians in a
complete circle -- the same as 360 degrees.
  The reason for the use of radians is for mathematical reasons.  It's
easier to calculate the sine of n radians than n degrees, if you use some of
the weird sum-of-infitite-values methods for calculating such things.  (To
calculate from degrees, you have to convert to radians first, anyway, with
these formulae.)
  Now hyperbolic trig functions are very different.  My math professor said
there was a geometrical interpretation of them that gave them their names,
but I never found out what it was.

       ======  Pascal  =(O,O)=  Hoot!  MacProgrammer  ======

Message: 67781
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Mike Carter
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 00:39:09

        Measuring 'Radiated' heat is not measuring air temp.  Not everyone
works on blacktop, so it would not be a 'Practical' temp.   That is the same
reason they don't measure the temp inside a closed car.... some would think
that would be practical as there are more people in cars at any given moment
then working at an air port on the asphalt!  True air temp is measured 10 to
12 feet above the ground, and not under a magnifying glass either.

        The FBI in Phoenix all have 50 rounds of ammo in their glove boxs.
None has ever exploded.  I have placed ammo in James Hawleys wrecked Van in
the front window on the dash board.  It did not explode today....  Ammo in
placed in some sort of shade, should never give a problem.  However.....
They do recommend you replace ammo stored in a hot place like a car at
least once a year.

        As for my experiment, I will let you know if it does go off.  If it
should go off, it will have no power to send the projectile very far... it
won't even break the glass since it is not a contained explosion, it will
just go BaNg!  For you guys worring about safety, the lead is cut in weight
and the round is in a strong pan forcing the explosion (if it happens) UP!

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 67782
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
Subject: Children
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 00:58:19

        Well, quite frankly, we are going to be crowded!  If you bring
a child, I can get my boy Travis to baby sit in his room.  If every one
brings their children...we MIGHT have a problem since our house is not that
large.  We will work something out I am sure.  Play it by ear.

        Travis does have an Atari ST with neet 'kid' games.  Travis is 13
and Tyler is 10.   They don't like GT's and were going to stay in their room
anyways.  I have been told we GT'ers are Boring!

        But I bet they sneak down for a piece of cake!  

        Tyler and Travis are in bed now, so I can't ask them, but they may
even like the company!!!  So my answer is an assumption!

                So hang me if I am wrong!

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- Get a rope!

Message: 67783
Author: Hans Glans
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: NON-status user
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 08:45:18

I didn't know we were supposed to campaign, I am interested, though...

Message: 67784
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Storm
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 09:19:50

How about the storm last night? It woke us up around 1 A.M. with a loud
thunder clap. It poured for over an hour and then started up again around 3
A.M. Poor hubby - he was crowded to one tiny spot on a king sized bed,
surrounded by three shaking dogs and one shaking wife. Everytime the
lightening hit close, he was almost suffocated!! AND IT DID hit close often.
Scarey! I'm a baby! -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 67785
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rod/Shoplifting
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 10:22:09

   But Rod, you are different in that you have a conscience. Most
shoplifters don't. And kids today aren't taught the morals needed to build
up a good conscience.
 
Daryl

Message: 67786
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: News Today
Subject: It's A GIRL!
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 10:28:47

   This morning at 12:31am, the Lord blessed us with a healthy baby girl.
Her name is Sarah Beth. She is 7lbs 5 1/2oz, and is 20 inches tall. Mom and
baby are resting at Arrowhead hospital after problem-free labor and
delivery.
   Our prayers for a healthy baby and a trouble-free natural delivery were
answered.
   If you believe in God, please keep mom and baby in your prayers. If you
don't, please keep them in your thoughts. Thank you.

Message: 67787
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Births
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 11:00:12

  Congratulations to Daryl and Rod and their wives.
  See You Later,
    Dean H.

Message: 67788
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Prank
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 11:01:37

From National Lampoon's True Facts:
   A wooden-rabbit lawn ornament taken from the home of Harry
and Louise West of Reistertown, Maryland, was returned
anonymously to the couple one year later, along with forty-
eight photos taken of the rabbit in locations such as Reno,
the Virgin Islands, New York City, Philadelphia, and Atlantic
City. Other photos showed the hare at Disney World and the
Wright Brothers Museum; one especially notable shot showed
Baltimore mayor Kurt L. Schmoke holding the bunny in his
right hand.
   According to the Associated Press, the prank resembled a
similar treatment accorded a year ago to Grumpy, an eighty-
pound lawn dwarf that was part of a group of seven in front
of a home in Saugerties, New York. That lawn ornament was
returned one month later with thirty-five photos, including
photographs showing him in Yankee Stadium, Colorado, Texas,
and the Carolinas. -Atlanta Journal-Constitution (contributed
by Barry Green)

Message: 67789
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Sex & Love
Subject: Daryl
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 11:46:39

Wow!  Congratulations!  Pass that man an exploding cigar!  And give that new
mother a soft pillow{
So, does this mean you will be at the GT?

Message: 67790
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: ann/storm
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 12:52:14

Well, it kept me awake too, but not from fright. Mary slept pretty well
through the storm, but I kept thinking about work and stuff and ---blam---
another storm would come rolling out of the McDowells.

Message: 67791
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Joke
Subject: Jeff/Hans
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 13:39:59

Sorry, guys.  Showing interest automatically disqualifies you.  I
believe Cliff must have posted that message just to see who on
Apollo is truly pure of heart.

Message: 67792
Author: $ Gary Jones
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Dean/Edsel
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 14:42:46

Dean, I will be glad to talk Edsels with you.  I owned a '59 Ranger for
several years and was quite satisfied with it.  The media hype about it was
similar in many respects to the Anti-Corvair hype that is still seen
occasionally on TV or in the magazines.

                                                   ****  Gary   ****

Message: 67793
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: News Today
Subject: Here comes another!
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 18:12:26

Congratulations Daryl, and your wife too of course.  I don't know what
causes birth, but there sure is a lot of it going around right now, so it
must be catching!

Message: 67794
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Hans/Mad Max
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 21:06:23

        I am not the one who is going to pick the $tatus user...
I just thought all you Non-$tatus users should have been making yourselves
more visible.  I was just surprised that nothing was said to Bill...

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 67795
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Answer!
Subject: Daryl MSG 67785
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 21:08:57

        Yep, since religion was taken out of public schools, morals have
declined.  The atheists are the only ones who can't see this.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 67796
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Daryl on Baby Girl!
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 21:10:03

        Congrats PaPa Daryl Westfall!

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 67797
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Dean/Edsel
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 21:46:46

One experience I've had was making a key to the trunk of one of those
jewels.  The lock was full of dirt and had to be removed but over the years
the springs that held the trunk lid up were missing.

I am a fairly strong person but the effort it took just to raise that lid
was extreme.  I run across many an auto with missing springs but they, thus
far, are nothing compared to the weight of the Edsel.

When living in New Orleans I used to visit every few months for about a year
the city of Miami, Florida.  There was this one town I would pass through,
Dotham, Alabama I think and in this one lot were about ten or so Edsels.  I
guess they were being collected.

I remember when they first came out and soon after came the joke about
Edsels being junk.

My brain has been picked.

Message: 67798
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff/Religion
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 21:55:02

So, what religion should we teach them youngsters in public schools?  How
about Hinduism?  They have a good moral base.

Religion should be left to the parents.  

Besides, your statement is ridiculous to say the least.  Morals have
declined, eh?

Message: 67799
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Daryl
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 21:56:03

Congratulations, Daryl.  Hope mommy will breast feed.

Message: 67800
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Corvair/Gary
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 21:58:34

These were nice automobiles as long as you didn't mind adding oil
frequently.  No, they didn't burn an extraordinaty amount as you probably
know.  They dripped it everywhere they went.

The car was a poor attempt by GM to copy the VW.  They missed on that one
real bad.

Message: 67801
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Gordon
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 22:01:37

I wasn't planning on bringing anyone to the GT but I have a really beautiful
daughter somewhere in that age range.  She likes to stay up till 2 A.M. or
so and she is really well behaved and doesn't take up much space.

If Cliff agrees then perhaps they, your daughter and mine can play with
Cliff and Sandy's boys in their room.  My daughter uses a 1040ST also and we
can bring some software.

My daughter, Melody Rose is a real jewel as I'm sure your daughter is.

Take care.

Message: 67802
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Burkett/$tatus
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 22:03:48

Well, I'd like to try for Double $tatus.  I like to write and my messages
are always nice and yes, even though this clown cries inwardly but smiles on
the outside whenever possible I think that I should win.

Thank you in advance, I am,

                                Me


Message: 67803
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Question?
Subject: Cliff
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 22:14:24

What of Zak?

Message: 67804
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Question?
Subject: Jim Lippard
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 22:16:41

Well then, what's your personal view of science, its validity and nature,
relative to non-scientific systems?

Message: 67805
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Steve/trig
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 22:23:08

I'm familiar with the trigonometric functions as applied to rotations about
a unit circle, but will re-read your message and see if there is something I
missed.

Message: 67806
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Steve/more
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 22:37:07

I am familiar with radian measure.  I was not aware that radian units
were more convenient because of analytic methods in their calculation.  I
presume you are refering to operations on x to determine the trig function
values of x, such as representing the trig function values as a polymonial
function, the degree of accuracy being related to the degree of the
polynomial.  The difference between f(x) and the polynomial is a remainder
term, which in "analytical functions" approaches zero as the degree of the
polynomial approaches infinity.  I am about to read about this.  I am just
starting to read about the Taylor formula and Taylor series.  On the
interval [0, pi/4] (0 to 45 degrees) the function sin x can be represented
with accuracy of up to 1/400 by the polynomial x - 1/6(x^3).
I know nothing about hyperbolic trig functions.

Message: 67807
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Daryl
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 22:38:46

Congratulations!!

Message: 67808
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: lawn ornaments
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 22:43:34

There have been a lot of similar stories.  The subject is treated in Jan
Harold Brunvand's "Curses! Broiled Again!", a book dealing with urban
legends.  

Message: 67809
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Religion
Subject: Cliff/schools
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 22:46:27

Yes, and the fundamentalists are the only ones who CAN see this.
Funny, but they're also the only ones who can see satanism in D&D and (all)
heavy metal rock music.  I know that you aren't that fundamentalist -- no
need to tell me that you don't believe that stuff.

Message: 67810
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Gotham City
Date: 07/24/90  Time: 22:50:38

Before the term "big apple" came to be applied almost exclusively as the
nickname for New York City, "Gotham" was the popular nickname for that town.
 The name "Gotham" derives from a medieval legend, where inhabitants of the
town, in order to discourage a visit from the King, behaved like complete
mooncalves in front of the King's emissaries.  Thus, Gotham became
synonomous with a city of fools.

Message: 67811
Author: Sandi Marlin
Category: Answer!
Subject: corvairs
Date: 07/25/90  Time: 00:22:38

Actually, the corvair was GM's answer to the Falcon...the Falcon far outsold
them back then and there's more surviving on the streets today. I'll wager
that my stock Falcon is a better car than a comparable corvair(though I will
admit that in the leak department, it was probably oozing trans fluid from
the day it rolled out of the factory...) Still, I'll concede that Corvairs
are neater looking than Falcons.

Message: 67812
Author: Sandi Marlin
Category: Answer!
Subject: morals/religion
Date: 07/25/90  Time: 00:36:02

Pardon me, as a wandering newcomer, to spout my opinions on a sensitive
subject, but I can't resist an answer. I'm not an atheist, but I don't
equate the removal of religion from schools as the cause of all evils.
People have a tendency to see a cause/effect relationship between anything
and everything that coincides in time...it's just as likely that lowering of
morals in general led to the removal of religion in school, or even more
likely that neither affected the other but had some other root cause. I
mean, really, since religion was removed from public schools, the metal used
in the manufacture of cars has gotten thinner and flimsier, for example. Cam
you honestly blame one on the other? My example is not as frivolous as it
sounds, so think about it...actually, my parents, who went to school in the
40's and 50's in this country say that there was no religious training then,
either. Besides, and this is strictly my opinion, what good are morals if
you follow them out of religious fear? I am moral because I believe I am
doing right, not because I'm afraid of what's going to happen after I die,
and I believe that my moral strength is stronger than the religious kind. No
hard feelings intended.

Message: 67813
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Sandi/last
Date: 07/25/90  Time: 01:27:14

Ah, a breath of fresh air.  Good points, well put.  But now someone will
think that either Jeff Beck or I posted them using your name.

I hope that you are real.

Message: 67814
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Sandi
Date: 07/25/90  Time: 01:38:57

I attended school from 1948 to 1957 and neither did I note a specific
message of religion.  We had to say the Pledge of Allegiance but that became
so regular that we didn't really know what we were saying and I always
thought that it said, "one nation invisible" and I would wonder why we as a
nation wanted to not be seen.  Oh well.

In grade school we had to say the Christian version of the Lord's Prayer
asking for our daily bread but I really did not understand the meaning and
still do not.  

I saw no moral message in either of the two practices that we were required
to perform.

Our music teacher wouldn't let us sing The Little Brown Jug or There is a
Tavern in the Town and she would try to pick me up on a Sunday morning and
take me to a Christian church.  I went once and found it extremely boring
so I stole the little wine glass they gave to me filled with some rasty
tasting grape juice.  They told me that it was Jesus' blood and it was
pretty bad.  I've never drank blood before but I've tasted my own from
various cuts I've had.

I don't remember what I ever did with that little wine glass but I probably
used it for BB gun practice.  I never went again.  

Message: 67815
Author: $$ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: GT
Date: 07/25/90  Time: 01:41:06

Our performance starts at Gallery X around 8:30 and should last about 40
minutes.

Peter would like to attend but he will be very busy that evening.

I will hop out there immediately following.

Gee, I hope I win that Double $tatus.