Apollo BBS Archive

Apollo BBS Archive - July 12 - 15, 1990

Mail from Jeff Beck
Date: 07/16/90  Time: 00:08:26

Hmmm ... how about Katrina?  People coult call her Kat for short if she
pleased.

Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
 1:Jasmine said that her first name would be Sierra earlier this evening.  But 
 2:I do like Katrina.....perhaps for a middle name which I am obliged to come 
 3:up with.  Sierra Katrina Williams....has a GOOD sound.  Thanx and thanks for
 4:your great responses to John on the possible working of a universe.  They 
 5:are enjoyed to say the least.

Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 67426
Author: $ John Cummings
Category: Answer!
Subject: Jeff B/evolution
Date: 07/11/90  Time: 22:32:45

        I submit that neither you nor I have the right to dictate that
Nature should act the way we demand. We have not the right to state that the
world should perform according to our preferences, wants, desires. Nature is
nature, it is not evil, happy, kind, malevolent, or beneficial. It has
certain attributes which some peoples (e.g. Hopis) identify as human, but
neither you nor I can criticize nature or God for not being what WE want Him
or it to be. Let's accept it for how we percieve it to be, let's not dictate
that it act as we ordain.

Message: 67427
Author: $ John Cummings
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rod/Fatherhood
Date: 07/11/90  Time: 22:51:39

        Congratulations on the new daughter! Earlier, I would have said that
anyone who has fathered a child, smelled a flower, or watched a sunset, need
not ask for proof of the existence of God.
        But we're working on step 3--Mike Carter pulled the trigger on most
of it already--it is the fact, observable by observation, that motion
without plan or order results in chaos. Ten thousand monkeys with ten
thousand typewriters MIGHT produce Hamlet, but only by chance, and the next
day's production would be gibberish.  A box full of crystal glasses shaken
hard MIGHT fall into a model of the Taj Mahal, but shake again and it will
be chaos. 
        But now the world has evolved from less to more complex over a
period of millions of years, with a few setbacks, perhaps, but in general a
straight more and more complex world. Amazing! Incidentally, I don't believe
in evolution as you do, but the argument is still sound--can you explain to
me how the less-to-more-complex world happened?  --John C.--

Message: 67428
Author: Hans Glans
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: owls
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 00:14:52

Humans have the right to destroy all other species because of our greed?
It's right to deforest the Amazon...the people down there need to live, just
like the loggers, right?

Message: 67429
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Carter
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 02:49:49

Complex processes require thought?  What evidence is there of that? 
According to you (or is that according to John Cummings -- I always confuse
the two of you) thought is unique to man.  And yet, complex processes occur
all around us, in animals and in inanimate nature, in organic and in
inorganic processes.  Obviously, everytime a dingo farts, then, God's widdle
hands must be on the bellows.

Message: 67430
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Bulletins
Subject: Rod's baby
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 02:50:41

Again, a hearty congratulations are in order!!

Message: 67431
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Cummings
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 03:00:03

Nature is not a sentient being; nature is the name we have given to a
collection of events and entities.  "Nature" is not good or evil, but the
results of nature's works can be. Nature is certainly cruel, blundering, and
wasteful; not in terms of the intentions of a being (for that I would need
to be a theist, like you, who assumes that nature is the result of the plan
of a being), but rather, in terms of the results of its processes.
Clearly, there is no evidence of any purpose, and if it was planned this
way, I should only have to assume that the planner was some sort of
idiot-savant.

Message: 67432
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Cummings
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 03:06:58

Your analogies -- monkeys on typewriters, a box full of crystal glasses
shaken -- demonstrate a fundamental lack of insight into stochastic
processes.  A box full of monkeys randomly typing does not have the feedback
necessary to shape their behavior.  A box full of crystal is not an apt
analogy for molecular chemistry; again, there is nothing to determine how
pieces of broken crystal should combine.
On the other hand, we find in chemistry completely spontaneous, repeatable,
and in fact self-sustaining reactions among purely inorganic components.
These reactions form quite incredibly detailed patterns and forms; they are
the closest thing to life yet observed in the inorganic world.
They also reproduce.

Message: 67433
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Victorian fashion
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 03:29:15

Before the invention of the crinoline in 1856 (a cage of metal strips shaped
like a cone, worn under women's skirts to widen, shape, and support the
skirts),
 
"pneumatic tubes" ! "were the most favoured system in the
mid-[eighteen]'fifties [of extending the skirt], yet at the same time many
fashionable beauties still kept to the traditional method of distending
their...dresses simply by an enormous number of starched...petticoats. 
'Many belles now wear fourteen in evening dress.  They go to a ball standing
up in their carriages, and stand between the dances, for fear of crushing
their dress and fourteen petticoats.'  Marshal Canrobert told a friend who
asked his opinion of her dress that it reminded him of an object which he
was very fond of.  After some teasing, the French Commander-In-Chief
revealed that the object in question was his tent in the Crimea.  He said he
thought it had come to life and followed him from Sebastopol to Paris."
 
"In 1880 Viscountess Harberton founded the Rational Dress Society 'to
promote the adoption of a style of dress based upon consideration of health,
comfort and beauty.'  Apart from compaining against tight-lacing, hampering
skirts and high heels, one of the society's aims was 'to recommend that the
maximum weight of underclothing (without shoes) should not exceed 7 lbs.'"
 
There are some really amusing photos of women alpinists crossing glaciers in
their long crinoline supported skirts with yards wide hems.

Message: 67434
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Hard/Software
Subject: Unzipping
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 03:43:30

UnZIPping, deARCing, and so forth shouldn't be a problem for a MAC owner.  I
have some of these utilities.

Message: 67435
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: News Today
Subject: Montini and Mike
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 03:45:05

E. J. Montini reminds me very much of Mike Barnicle in the Boston Globe.
They have much the same style of journalism and usually address the same
kind of human-interest story with no punches pulled.  Which doesn't mean to
say they're always right, still less that the readers always agree with
them; but that's part of the entertainment.  As long as it's treated as
entertainment.

Barnicle is a Boston Irish Catholic whose picture appears at the top of his
column with a tough scowl on his face and a big cigar sticking out of his
mouth.  Anybody who writes to complain or disagree with anything he says
doesn't get ignored, though.  On the contrary, Barnicle will often publish
the reader's comments in his column, then follow up by roundly abusing the
complainer and his puerile opinions.  One woman wrote to whine about the
"bad influence" of his cigar-smoking image, so being a smoker myself I gave
him a silent cheer when he dispatched her with his usual gusto.

Unfortunately Barnicle is also very unsound on the subject of guns, and
seems to think (in his words) that gun owners are all a bunch of hick morons
with straw in their mouths who live in the wild unknown lands beyond the
Berkshires.  Typical Bostonian view.  But then, the Glob is also a flaming
liberal newspaper.

I don't recall any anti-gun or anti-gun-owner stuff from Montini before this
episode in the year I've lived in Phoenix.  But maybe I missed it.

Message: 67436
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Melissa and Gaiety
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 03:49:46

I was taught math and French, respectively, by two middle-aged "maiden
ladies" who lived together in a house just near the school.  They were
first-class teachers and were also very well liked by everybody.  Many years
later I put together some clues and decided that they were almost certainly
gay.  But nobody had thought to speculate about that at the time.

Statistically the proportion of gay child molesters is at least no larger
than the proportion of hetero child molesters (you can't call a child
molester "straight"!)  Curiously, a large number of men who molest little
boys are heterosexual "in other respects" -- whatever that means.  (In their
sexual relationships with adults, presumably.)

That reminds me of a note made in 1894 by the Assistant Commissioner of the
Metropolitan Police (in London) about a Jack the Ripper suspect named Druitt
who drowned himself.  "[Druitt] was alleged to be sexually insane", he
wrote; and a later commentator pointed out that this was "a curious phrase,
implying that Druitt was sane in other departments".  But it is possible
that "sexually insane" was a Victorian euphemism for "homosexual".

Not all euphemisms for homosexuals are derogatory.  One old geezer wrote to
the newspaper about all the gay rights protests, gay pride marches, gay
people "coming out" and others clamoring to be let out of the closet.
"Homosexuality used to be called 'the love that dare not speak its name,'"
he grumbled.  "Now it won't shut up!"

Message: 67437
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: patterns and plans
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 04:04:01

Oh, and speaking of developments and organizations, let's not forget the
patterns we commonly find in clouds, sand, water, wood grain; all kinds
of familiar shapes; faces, human bodies, motorcycles, question marks, to
name but a few that I persolly have observed. These shapes often form
spontaneously and almost instantaneously, and unless you believe they are
some sort of supernatural portent or omen, I think you'd do well to drop
this rubbish about complex pattern and order being the result of a plan --
unless of course you believe God has nothing better to do than sit around
making patterns in wood grain with the foreknowledge that some day the wood
will be used to make your printer stand.
In just nine months a fertilized egg "evolves" into a newborn baby.  And
yet, somehow, the concept that over a period of many, many millions of
years, through the combination of random (but bounded) mutation and
environmental feedback, a simple organism might evolve into a human being,
is looked upon as ludicrous.

Message: 67438
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: daryl/repost
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 07:48:15

I suggest you refer to posts by message number, rather than forcing the
rest of us to hit the skip key. Thank you.

Message: 67439
Author: Hans Glans
Category: Tales & Tall Stories
Subject: Jeff Beck
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 08:40:27

You have good, logical arguements, that don't need to be based on something
you just have to accept as fact without proof.
 
Of course, the creationist camp, when faced with such things as, "The
production of amino acids with lightning is a simulated environment has be
duplicated". will usually respond like this: "God made it that way."
"The results are wrong, because the researchers could have fixed the
results." 
Or maybe they were just being given enough blasphemy rope by the
all-powerful diety to hang themselves...

s

Message: 67440
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Roger
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 08:43:22

Just think of it as only one of those thousand points of light.

Message: 67441
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Sex & Love
Subject: Rodmary's Baby
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 08:44:02

Congratulations, Rod!  What did you do to help?  Boil the water?

Message: 67442
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Roger / Repost
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 09:00:15

    That was (hopefully) a one-time deal. I doubt I will respond to a
message in this manner again in the near future.

Daryl

Message: 67443
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rod / Child
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 09:03:14

Congratulations on the new baby.
 
Daryl

Message: 67444
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: News Today
Subject: Congrats!
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 09:17:12

 
Congradulations Rod Williams on the birth of the newborn!
 
WAHHHH!!!
 
"It's 2:00am..your turn!"

Message: 67445
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Hans
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 09:20:57

What you said is quite true, one doesn't need to have facts
or proof to sound logical. That's why there's always so many
answers to a question...only one right one though.
That's why men *believed* the earth was flat.
That's why men *believed* going to the moon was science fiction.
 
You don't need fact, physical proof or scientific grounds to
-->sound<-- logical. In fact, you can sound just as logical
with a little science droppped in...like Mr Issac Asimov does
so well.

Message: 67446
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jeffs Dingos
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 09:31:02

You're showing a lack of understanding on some things here.
If you removed all signs of life from this orbiting sphere..every
single possible scrap of living existence, "Nature" would
go on.
So where you get off anthropomorphisizing about its suggested
cruelty, lack of direction and "wastefullness" is beyond rationality.
Lets play Devils advocate and say that your life, my life and everyone
else's here is just a mutated glob of manical chance struck by
lightning in some Frat Lab. Now that we've (I'm being facetious Jeff..)
aggreed that we're only so much cosmic jellatin quivering away
waiting for death in a world full of sorrow, hate, unfulfilled
dreams, injustice and chaos without morality, why do you keep living?
I mean if this seems as one big accident, that your life is worth
less now that its another two minutes older, why ....** WHY **
do you allow yourself another miserable second of existence in such
a harsh, cold, unforgiving and cruel existance?
 
Oh please, don't go ranting and sniveling about self preservation...
in clinical terms, don't make me puke. Remember, you're nothing but
a pile of artificially stimulated slag that's got monkey's for
uncles and ameoba brains. So forget going on about your value and
such. If you can figure math, so can my wolf.

Message: 67447
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Bulletins
Subject: Rod's Baby...
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 10:29:51

        A very sincere congratulations, and may she be blessed with good
health and a happy life.

                        clif-

Message: 67448
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: The SYSOP Speaks
Subject: 150,000th caller
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 10:38:02

        What Bill Burkett said...was the TRUTH!  There is going to be a
Non-$tatus user selected on the 31st of July to become a $tatus user, with
the cost absorbed by 'Bill Burkett'.  This is NOT a JOKE!

        Zak Woodruff won 'Blue $tatus' as Apollo's 100,000th caller. Now
Bill Burkett as Apollo's 150,000th caller has won the same.  Bill however
feels he still wants to contribute his $12.00 annually, so he is going to
set up the 'Bill Burkett Foundation' with a grant to be awarded each year.

        'Blue-$tatus' by the way is life time membership without the annual
membership fee.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 67449
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Sex & Love
Subject: Rod and Jasmine
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 11:19:27

Congratulations!  Give Jasmine my wishes for a speedy recovery.

Message: 67450
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Apollo Trivia
Subject: batteries
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 14:49:29

        Today Apollo's batteries for the SAFE Un-Interruptible power supply
were replaced.  The Safe 250 can run Apollo for almost half an hour if APS
drops the load.  Durring July  with the monsoon and thunder/lightning
weather, I thought it would be a good idea to have the system in tip-top
shape.  As soon as the Safe 250 detects any fluctuation in power, it takes
over till a clean line is detected.  I can generally hear the 'beep' signal
from the SAFE 250 before I see the lights flicker in a brown out.
        Total price spent on batteries you ask????   $ 56.21

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 67451
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Fur coats
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 17:21:52

Unfortunately, I have no collection. Actually, I wouldn't buy one as much as
I love them Or was a millionair. We don't need that sort of thing to have a
beautiful coat now days. -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 67452
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jeff on Moby
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 17:26:41

Moby Dick is complete rubbish???? Have you lost your marbles? 
                       -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 67453
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bobby on a whore
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 17:31:07

What is the equivalent name to a guy that sells it or gives it away to
anyone that asks? Just curious. *Heh -=*) ANN (*=-
In other words, the male version of a whore?!

Message: 67454
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bobby on coats
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 17:32:26

 
 
                        NONE!
 

Message: 67455
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff on cake
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 17:34:31

I'll jump out of it only if it's chocolate! An\or I get a fur coat.
                         -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 67456
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Melissa on cake
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 17:35:48

I do think it would be better if you jumped outta da cake. I'll be you own a
bikini huh? -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 67457
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rod on baby
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 17:39:01

Congratulations fellow! -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 67458
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Question?
Subject: Think about this one
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 18:03:24

Jeff:
 (7-2x)^(1/3) = -3
 
solve for x.  This came from my Mathematical Calendar.

Message: 67459
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: $tatus users only
Subject: Unzip
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 18:13:31

Bob, I will upload an unzip program for the Mac.  I assume that you can
handle BinHex4 files???

Lemme know.

Message: 67460
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Annie
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 20:39:42

Re:  "What is the equivalent name to a guy that sells it or gives it away to
anyone that asks? Just curious. In other words, the male version of a
whore?!"

Gigolo is the word.  But they are far and few between and usually pray on
old rich women.  Besides men don't give it away; they take.  The women
usually give it for some kind of compensation, and the man receive it
usually for giving some kind of compensation.  And that's the way it's
always been.  

Message: 67461
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rod's new baby
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 20:42:34

Tell Jasmine that I congratulate her on having the baby.  She did all the
real work for sure.  I always wondered why the men get congratulated when we
know it's the woman who really pays the price.

Message: 67462
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Dog
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 20:43:32

Sure can.  Tell me the name of the file.  

Message: 67463
Author: $ John Cummings
Category: Answer!
Subject: Beck/Dingo farts
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 20:52:36

        Whoa, please follow the distinction I made here! Complexity is
simply the adjective to describe modern beings, as opposed to less complex
stuff from which modern beings evolved, according to evolutionists. The
faculty of thought is one shared by many of the "more complex" beings:e.g.,
man, and apparently some higher apes. Man is set apart from the rest by an
ESSENTIAL difference; that is, one of the essence of man. It distinguishes
the species. It is the ability to think "rationally" or "reflectively" or
"in a manner whichn distinguishes essences".    --John C.--

Message: 67464
Author: $ John Cummings
Category: Answer!
Subject: Beck/Nature
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 20:56:35

        "Nature is certainly cruel, blundering, and wasteful," you say, and
yet you deny it a sentient nature. If it is not sentient, then who are you
to assume the arrant arrogance of decreeing judgment on it? How can it be
cruel? Why is it not kind, fruitful, sheltering, as the Hopis believe?

Message: 67465
Author: $ John Cummings
Category: Answer!
Subject: Beck/Chemistry
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 20:59:52

        You are right--we find those interesting actions in chemistry, and
some more just as interesting in other disciplines. Do we agree that the
modern world evolved from a less complex world? Is there an explanation for
that peculiar unique development?   --John C.--

Message: 67466
Author: $ John Cummings
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Beck/evolution
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 21:04:31

        A "fertilized egg 'evolves' into a baby." No, Jeff, thye egg
DEVELOPS into a baby--mankind evolved from primordial slime, if you believe
the evolutionists.     --John C.--

Message: 67467
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: In search of
Subject: the answer
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 21:30:30

I know what it is...nah nah nah nah nah nah!
But I'll wait and see it Jeff can figure it out.

Message: 67468
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Answer!
Subject: Ann
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 21:32:52

Gigalo is the name for male prostitues but down on Van Buren they are also
called whores.  It might be because many of their customers are men, though
are not homosexual (that's what they say - YOU figure it out).

And I don't believe I said I had a bikini.  

Message: 67469
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bob/gigolo
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 21:54:47

"Pray" on old rich women. What do they pray ? "Oh, God, please let me
be put in the old bag's will!" :) :) :) :) :)

Message: 67470
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Answer!
Subject: john/rationality
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 21:57:28

Do you not agree that a monkey thinks rationally when it performs the
appropriate action in a lab environment to obtain a reward ? Hmmm. If
I press lever A, then B, I will get a yummy snack. And humans; If I
go to work and work real well for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, I will
get some money.

Message: 67471
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: john/cruel nature
Date: 07/12/90  Time: 21:58:38

Beck has always anthropomorphized to excess. Please excuse him. (He is
also jejune, but don't tell him that)

Message: 67472
Author: $ Steve MacGregor
Category: Question?
Subject: Homophobe
Date: 07/13/90  Time: 00:40:56

   A while back, someone said that "homophobe" means "someone who hates
men".  (I ran out of time before I could reply, and have lost the message
number.)
   So -- I'd just like to ask whoever posted that definition how he figures.

                                     =(O,O)=  Hoot!

Message: 67473
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Carter
Date: 07/13/90  Time: 00:49:25

You're right about nature being cruel; we couldn't call it cruel if sentient
life did not exist.  However, sentient life does exist, and nature is often
cruel.  To be wasteful and blundering, however, life does not need to exist.
To waste is to be superfluous.  Waste is a type of blunder, though the
latter term describes a a far more general class of errors.
Why do I go on?  I am puzzled by this question.  Why should I require the
existence of a God to justify my own existence?

Message: 67474
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Ann/Moby-Dick
Date: 07/13/90  Time: 00:52:46

No.
 
Moby-Dick is one of those incredibly boring, irrelevant, and vexatious books
which snobs of the Western Classics school of pedagogy inflict upon the rest
of us, primarily because child abuse is self-perpetuating.

Message: 67475
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Beau Dog
Date: 07/13/90  Time: 00:54:10

That's easy; it must be, for I am currently under the influence of Sominex
and will soon fall asleep.
 
You asked me to solve (7-2x)^1/3 = -3.  The first order of business is to
get rid of that pesky radical.  Since it is a cube root, we simply cube the
other side of the equation and remove the radical.  We then have the simple
 equation 7-2x = -27.  Adding 27 to both sides, we get 34-2x = 0.  Add
2x to both sides, and we have 2x=34.  Divide both sides by 2 and we have
x=17.  This checks, because the cube root of (7-2*17), or -27, is -3. 
Q.E.D.

Message: 67476
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Cummings
Date: 07/13/90  Time: 01:08:10

Rubbish.

Message: 67477
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: nature
Date: 07/13/90  Time: 01:10:38

It is kind, fruitful, and sheltering.  It is also wasteful, blundering, and
cruel.  That is no paradox.  A man wandering in the desert may come upon an
oasis.  He may also die of heatstroke.  The point is not that nature is
ALWAYS wasteful, blundering or cruel -- that might indicate a plan of a
different sort.  Merely that it can be, and often is wasteful, blundering
and cruel.

Message: 67478
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: stuff
Date: 07/13/90  Time: 01:15:51

I do not like the word evolve -- it implies progess.  The changes which
"evolution" have brought are ambiguous at best, and my attitude in that
sense is ambivalent.  Things change; some changes are good, some are bad. 
There are different types of complexity and simplicity; one does not judge
the complexity of a design by the number of its components or the number of
sheer interactions within a system.  One CAN describe it that way, but such
complexity (when it is NOT wasteful or blundering, that is, when it is
neither superfluous nor self-defeating (as nature often is) often brings a
kind of simplicity to things; the simplicity of elegance.

Message: 67479
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cummings
Date: 07/13/90  Time: 01:17:09

Don't be a twit; why do you think I put the word "evolve" into quotation
marks in my original message, if not to indicate a figurative analogy rather
than a literal one?

Message: 67480
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: In search of
Subject: Answers
Date: 07/13/90  Time: 09:09:36

Yeah, that's what I thought:  too easy for ya.
But HEY!  Happy Friday the 13th folks.

Message: 67481
Author: Hans Glans
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Friday the 13th
Date: 07/13/90  Time: 09:34:02

Too bad rod didn't get his 66666 today.

Message: 67482
Author: $ Alan Hamilton
Category: Question?
Subject: Morality
Date: 07/13/90  Time: 10:13:50

        I've always wondered about theists who insist that without a deity,
there is no reason to not murder, steal, rape, commit suicide, etc.  Does
that mean that if God came down and repealed the Ten Commandments, all the
Christians would go on a murdering, stealing, raping, rampage?
        I can come up with lots of pragmatic reasons for not engaging in the
above actions, not the least of which is that the victims and their
relatives are lible to get real peeved at me and put a stop to it.
 
     /
 /  *  /  Alan
*     *

Message: 67483
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Answer!
Subject: last
Date: 07/13/90  Time: 10:55:26

The fact that you were raised in a society with morals based on
religion seems to evade your narrow mind.
Contrary to your fairy tale ideals, I think man is *not* an
Altruistic being. He's basically arrogant, selfish, self centered and
predatory.
 
        -Mike

Message: 67484
Author: $ John Cummings
Category: Answer!
Subject: Beck/evolution
Date: 07/13/90  Time: 11:36:03

        This does not ask for a judgment as to the worth, the goodness or
badness of changes; it simply points out that the changes since the
beginning have been from the less complex to the more complex. Whether that
is good or bad is the stuff of a different discussion. This simply states
that the change has been from less to more complex, from primordial slime to
the concept of cube root of a number.   --John C.--

Message: 67485
Author: $ John Cummings
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rod,Jeff/religion
Date: 07/13/90  Time: 11:51:07

        I'd like to graduate from this course, okay.  We've spent a week
discussing the Proof of Order, to wit: movement without plan results in
chaos, movement to complexity displays a planner. The world evolved from
less to more complex, therefore the world follows a planner, a designer.
Believers call the Planner God. This is only one of dozens of proofs.
        I don't expect this to convert you;it is only intellectual argument,
conversion requires the leap of faith. But it satisfies Rod's request that
we ask pastors for a proof.Since 1275 a.d., this is a proof which atheists
have had to ignore or evade or deny; it cannot be disproved logically
without descending to the absurdity of hundred of billions of coincidences.
        Now, therefore I ask that you exercise intellectual honesty and
common courtesy and honor the integrity of those who believe in God. Cease
the puerile, rude, gross, infantile attacks on the concept of a creator.
        I've been insulted with grammatical errors and arguments couched in
obfuscations and evasions. I neither deserve this nor will I accept more.
        Jeff, I bow to your superior knowledge of mathematics. Rod, you are
far more knowledgeable than I about computers. Should you wish, however, to
continue denying the existence of God and insulting my belief, then I ask
that before you display such erudition, kindly first understand Augustine's
CITY OF GOD and the SUMMA THEOLOGICA of Aquinas.     --John C.--

Message: 67486
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Offspring
Date: 07/13/90  Time: 12:00:11

Congratulations on your new arrival, Rod.  (P.S.  I know you were
kidding about naming her Satana.  You wouldn't want to call her after
something you don't believe in, would you?)

Message: 67487
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Today's date
Date: 07/13/90  Time: 12:02:15

Well, it's Friday the Thirteenth today.  Doesn't anybody have an AX?

(To grind, that is...)

Message: 67488
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bobby on answer
Date: 07/13/90  Time: 12:23:24

'Gigolo'! Now isn't that just a jim dandy word compared to 'whore'? I would
be willing to bet it was men that made up all these descriptive words! 
 
OK - what is a man called that goes to bed with 10 women? I know what a
woman is called and what kind of reputations she will get for doing so. What
kind of reputation will he get? A medal? No - that's a commendation, right?
A Plaque? An award of some sort? Glory, laud and honor perhaps? I'll say it
again .... "BAH HUMBUG!!!" -=*) ANN (*=- (snort)

Message: 67489
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Melissa on whores
Date: 07/13/90  Time: 12:27:13

You said "many of their customers are men, though not homosexual. (that's
what they say ..." So, you've been down on Van Buren asking these male
whores these questions??? Hahahahahhhahaha Sorry - I couldn't resist. Just
wondering if you did that in your spare time??!! (snicker) -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 67490
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jeff on Moby
Date: 07/13/90  Time: 12:31:39

Huh? Child abuse? Self-perpetuating? Pedagogy? Here I thought it was a book
about a sea Captain that lost his leg to a great white whale and seeked his
revenge - risking his crew selfishly, but the whale, Moby Dick won! Are we
talking about the same book/movie? -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 67491
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Religion
Subject: John Cummings
Date: 07/13/90  Time: 13:11:27

Re: 'the puerile, rude, gross, infantile attacks on the concept of a
creator.'

        I agree, but you should now see and understand why most of us
Christians just ignor these guys when it comes to religion. The fact they
can't seem to understand the concept of a God, seems to upset and fill them
with anger.  So much anger they seem to find it necessary to vent it out on
us Christians in the form of 'rude, gross, personal attacks.

        In person these people are good friends, when we are not talking
about religion.   The fact they don't wish to believe in a God, does not
bother me.   Why does it bother them, is the question.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 67492
Author: Jeff Lochansky
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rod's baby
Date: 07/13/90  Time: 15:35:52

Congratulations Rod on your new and hopefully healthy baby.
  THE MAD MAX

Message: 67493
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Answer!
Subject: Gordon
Date: 07/13/90  Time: 18:05:31

Well he named his first child Christian.

Message: 67494
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Vote
Subject: old on Stadium tax
Date: 07/13/90  Time: 18:37:08

 07/05/90                Tax support of baseball?

Just how bad do you want a National Baseball League for Maricopa County?

[A] I am for a quarter-cent sales tax to finance a stadium.
[B] I am against sales tax to finance a stadium.
[C] I don't care.

Poll results:
[A] 3    [B] 18   [C] 5

        For those of you who [V]oted [B], be sure to sign a petition
as soon as you can.  They need 43,350 voter signatures by Sept. 26th to stop
House Bill 1344 from going into effect.
        For those of you who voted [C] (don't care if your taxes go up or
not)... can I interest you in paying for a swimming pool for my back yard.
        I would like to hear from those who voted for [A], are you baseball
fans?

        I am not against a stadium, but I think the people who are going to
profit from the 'gate', should be the ones to pay for the damn thing, not
tax-payers who are already over burdened by taxes in a flat economy.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 67495
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Annie
Date: 07/13/90  Time: 19:57:36

Re:  "OK - what is a man called that goes to bed with 10 women?"

Hey, I didn't say life was fair.  But in answer to your question,
whoremaster or whoremonger.  Now I would venture to guess that the former
was thought up by a man and the latter was thought up by a woman.

:-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:

Message: 67496
Author: $ John Cummings
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Annie/Action
Date: 07/13/90  Time: 21:05:54

        A long time ago, when I was in college, before you were born, a man
who went to bed with ten women was called a cocksman. A question usually
followed: Ten women? One at a time or all at once? Shakespeare had a great
time playing with words in this regard, and they've been picked up by modern
playwrights, too.       --John C.--

Message: 67497
Author: $ John Cummings
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Mike C./language
Date: 07/13/90  Time: 21:11:33

        I've always been interested in languages, especially English, and
the way it is handled in different parts of the world, so I'm intrigued by
your comments about some Australian expressions.  One of my daughters
married a man whose mother is Australian.  She now lives in San Diego, a
very cultured, intelligent lady. A real delight to talk with. But, although
she smiles with recognition at some questions about "strine," the Australian
slang, she doesn't want to get in to it. From what I've been able to learn,
the Australian English is the most vibrant, poetic, alive language since
Shakespeare, and that requires the slang!  Are you familiar with the
so-called "strine"? Do you enjoy that strength of speech? How long have you
been gone from there? Do they still use "rhyming slang"?  --John C.--

Message: 67498
Author: $ John Cummings
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Annie/Homos
Date: 07/13/90  Time: 21:17:39

        Annie, did you get thru to the St. Jos. Hopital board? Did they have
info to help?  The Republic and the Wall Street Journal both, yesterday or
the day before, ran an article about AIDS being the fifth greatest killer of
young black women of child bearing age: 15 to 40.  Apparently, contaminated
needles and sex with bi-sexual men who had been exposed to homosexual men
were the chief sources of the disease.
        Back to the guy who sleeps with 10. What are his odds of getting it
from an IV druggie or a gal whose pimp is queer? Oh, don't even think of it,
it is gross!      --John C.--

Message: 67499
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Answer!
Subject: 'Strine
Date: 07/13/90  Time: 21:57:32

I have a book or two on Strine. If you'll be at the b-day party GT, you can
look at them...

Message: 67500
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Carter on men
Date: 07/14/90  Time: 00:36:38

Heh heh, sorry, couldn't resist that one.  Now then, I'd probably agree with
your characterization of mankind; as a generalization.  But there are a lot
of exceptions.  

Message: 67501
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Cummings/evolution
Date: 07/14/90  Time: 00:39:31

If that is your sole definition of evolution -- a series of changes from the
less to the more biologically complex, then I see nothing wrong with it. 
However, be aware that the ordinary definition of the term, and in most
cases, the scientific definition of the term, is not nearly so exact nor
restricted, nor neutral.

Message: 67502
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Cummings/religion
Date: 07/14/90  Time: 00:50:33

But it is not an intellectual argument.  And in millions of trillions of
events, one might expect a few hundred billion coincedences, though how
you derived that figure is beyond me.  Obviously, you haven't bothered to
read my messages, nor have you ever bothered to study probability nor
scientific theories on the origin of life nor experiments nor chaos theory,
for if you did you would see that your proof is not a proof, but a fallacy
based on ignorance.
Nor have you responded to the problem of evil.  There is no reason for it to
exist.  There is no reason for its possibility to exist.  If God is all
powerful and benevolent, then it is possible for him to create beings
without the potential for evil.  It IS possible for beings to have free will
and yet lack the potential for evil, because God has free will and yet lacks
evil; he is both morally pure and infallible.  If, however, you insist that
it is not possible to have free will and yet lack the capacity for evil,
despite the refutation of this in God himself, then clearly, it was an
irresponsible act to create such beings in the first place.  Furthermore, it
is a continually irresponsible act to allow the victims of evil to suffer
the results of evil acts; one need not be able to actually carry out an evil
act in order to choose to do it.  And what about the evils of disease and
natural disaster?  Why should they exist?  There is no free will in a cancer
or an earthquake.  What about the sheer stupidity of nature?  You have no
answers to these questions, because you are blind in your faith.

Message: 67503
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Cliff/attacks
Date: 07/14/90  Time: 00:52:46

Clearly, through his actions, this mythological creator of yours is puerile,
rude, gross and infantile.  He should feel right at home.

Message: 67504
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Bulletins
Subject: AN APOLLOgy
Date: 07/14/90  Time: 01:13:47

Let me make a public apology to John Cummings for the personally insulting
statements I made.  There is something about his cavalier arrogance combined
with his antithetical views which vexes me; yet that is hardly an excuse for
the sort of vituperation I vented upon him.  Let us go forth, if not in a
spirit of brotherhood, if not with an amiable spirit, then with a civil and
amicable spirit.
 
Excelsior!

J.B.
 
 
P.S. Lord, was that last bit pompous and affectatious, or what!!

Message: 67505
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bobby on words
Date: 07/14/90  Time: 09:00:49

I could post a few words discribing those types of men - but you don't
belong to the Cos sig!! All thought up by women too. Heh heh.
                             -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 67506
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: John C.
Date: 07/14/90  Time: 09:04:28

A 'Cocksman'??? Ho boy, does that have a macho ring to it! I have another
name for them and it begins with a 'P'! Ha ha. -=*) ANN (*=-
 
P.S. A man taking on 10 women isn't feasible in the least - but a women
taking on 10 men is ................. enjoyable!
 
P.S.S. You were in college before I was born? How old are you fellow, 95?

Message: 67507
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Vote
Subject: New ote
Date: 07/14/90  Time: 10:45:49

        Be advised there is a NEW ote (Poll) in the ain menu about
summer movies.  Supposedly 'the big ones'....
        Please look it over and make some choice.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 67509
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Answer!
Subject: I voted 4 stadium
Date: 07/14/90  Time: 17:10:08

The reason I voted for the tax is simple.
Phoenix is one of the very *few* places where the heat is so
bad that you wont see me at *any* outdoor game during the summer.
In fact, I think its also why as far as major leagues are concerned,
why we stink when it comes to football and baseball.
Notice the great job we did with basketball? (AN INDOOR SPORT).
Now, I hate paying taxes just like the rest of you. In fact, I'd
wager that I actually pay more than 98% of you. I doubt sincerely
wether or not .25cents is gonna choke the living feces out of me.
Wether it be .25c or 25 or 250. Each year I pay approximately
12,000 dollars in taxes. It sucks wind. It blows chunks. It stinks
up a God awful storm. But taxes *spent* on something tangible.....
like a massive sports stadium.... I'll vote FOR anytime. It's something
I can take the kids to on a 120 degree day and say; Hey, let's
go watch a baseball game and eat some hot dogs and have a little fun.
Rather than; Hey, let's go watch a baseball game, eat some hot dogs
a{d watch Mikey expire from heat exhaus4{ion and get taken to St Lukes,
where he'll hopefully recover from 3 hours of Phoenix sunlighht in the
summer.
I get sick from the heat. It's a disability I have. One of about 2.
I can't take lactose either...that's about it. I haven't been sick enough
to miss work (except from heat) for 10 years.
I dare say that I'm not only in favor of a stadium, but I'm in favor
of spending 250,000 extra to keep it cool. Unless you;re a lizards cousin.

Message: 67510
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Drug Talk
Subject: Aha
Date: 07/14/90  Time: 17:34:05

Did you hear the recent news about these Politico types?
It appears that Bush and his band of read my lips weenies
have responded to the public outcry for justice on the S&L bailout.
Now they are saying ;
"We're recovering a Million dollars a day..."
 
Dope heads.
 
They didn't tell you that it's costing us $56 million dollars a day
to cope with and chase down the S&L thiefs. 
 
 
One day people. One day, and it'll be one day before it's all too late.

Message: 67511
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Answer!
Subject: Ann
Date: 07/14/90  Time: 18:30:01

10 men is enjoyable?  Ouch!
Maybe 4 but after that it's overkill.

Message: 67512
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
Subject: List
Date: 07/14/90  Time: 18:31:17

Euuwwww!   I'm on next to Mike Carter!!  Can I change my seat, teacher
Cliffy?  At least I'm on top.

Message: 67513
Author: $ John Cummings
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Movies
Date: 07/14/90  Time: 21:21:49

        I voted with an "H" because I haven't seen any of those movies yet,
but I have been looking forward to catching Firebirds to watch the
helicopters from Mesa.  But I see that the whirly-bird flick get no votes,
and I know that some of you have seen it, at least.  Is it really a dog of a
film? Is it worth seeing? I don't see many movies.

        But hey, I saw "Thoroughly Modern Millie" and it was pretty good.

Message: 67514
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: The SYSOP Speaks
Subject: New User
Date: 07/14/90  Time: 21:33:17

        Ray Erickson (who was a $tatus member in 1986) has re-joined Apollo.
Ray uses a Leading Edge computer (IBM Compatible)

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 67515
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
Subject: 28th July
Date: 07/14/90  Time: 21:45:50

I think I can make it on this date as well.  I might have missed part
of the announcement, though, due to being away.  What time is it?

Message: 67516
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cocksmen
Date: 07/14/90  Time: 21:49:17

...and the guy who directs a rowing crew is called a "coxswain"
(pronounced "cox'n" in the style of other good nautical words like
bo's'un, mains'l, fo'c'sle and so on).  No wonder those Oxford and
Cambridge rowing blues had such an undeserved reputation...

Message: 67517
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
Subject: Coming soon....
Date: 07/14/90  Time: 22:52:07

        The B-Day GT on the 28th of July is coming.  The guest list has
gotten longer.  You need NOT even have to be a $tatus user to attend as we
have several very good Non-$tatus users who post excellent messages.

        There are some of you $tatus members who hardly attend or never have
attended an Apollo GT.  I STRONGLY urge you to consider the Saturday 28th
night Get-Together, to meet the gang!

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 67518
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: In search of
Subject: Cake for GT
Date: 07/15/90  Time: 00:56:11

        Looks like there will be so many users, it will be necessary to buy
a store cake instead.  Sandy ain't one for a lot of baking.....

        Does anyone know what stores have the best cakes?  Fry's, Smith's,
Safe Way...etc?

        Open to suggestions, or in short.... HELP!

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 67519
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
Subject: Oh, alright...
Date: 07/15/90  Time: 01:10:35

I'll probably show up.

Message: 67520
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: GT/28th
Date: 07/15/90  Time: 06:45:30

 Just back from 3 weeks vacation, and trying to catch up on what's
happening. Haven't had a chance to look at my schedule yet, but if I don't
have a party or something, may be able to make the B-day GT. 'Twould be fun.
 Cliff, I used to get cakes for such things as retirement parties, etc.
when I was still a working stiff, and found that Smitty's was the best by
far. They will tailor-decorate to suit the need, and their frosting isn't
that sickening sweet stuff that some others use. Prices are reasonable, too.
 Later. Hi, everyone! I'm back!

Message: 67521
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
Subject: Guest List
Date: 07/15/90  Time: 07:58:25

Ann Oudin
Beauregard Dog
Bill Burkett
Bob Thornburg
Gordon Little
Jeff Beck
Jeff Lochansky (Mad-Max)
Melissa Dee
(( space ))
Mike Carter
Mike Kielsky
Pat Stoddard
Paul Savage
Rod Williams
Shirley Bear
Steven Carls
Todd Reese

Re: Cake & Paul Savage...   Smitty's.... thanks!  Welcome back!

Anyone else?   Jack F., Mike M., ?,?,?, and so on...........

Message: 67522
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
Subject: Cake
Date: 07/15/90  Time: 08:50:32

Yeah, Smitty's cakes are good because the frosting is whip cream, not just
the ole suger and water.  I don't know if you have to ask for it or if they
do them all that way.
 
Oh, and thanks for the space!

Message: 67523
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Mike on Stadium
Date: 07/15/90  Time: 09:04:38

Hey Mike! You changed my mind about new taxes for a stadium with that post
of yours! I never thought of it quite like that before. I'd pay the extra
for a cool ball park. Even in the winter here sometimes it's really too warm
for football. I would NEVER go to a baseball game as much as I love it. I
have had a heat stroke years ago and just can't take being in the sun for
very long. -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 67524
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: News Today
Subject: Way to go ....
Date: 07/15/90  Time: 09:19:02

... Bullhead City! They voted and passed overwhelmingly in May of 1989 that
requires any new or increased city tax or assessment to be approved by
voters!!!! Of course the politicians are raising holy hell about it. One
Bullhead city attorney said "If the city council wanted to impose a fine for
failure to register a bicycle - it could result in an election!" TOO BAD!
They shouldn't have to register a damn bike anyway! These politicians are
going to have to put to good use the money they do have for a change instead
of wasting it! Viva la Bullhead city!!! Viva la voters! -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 67525
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cool ballpark
Date: 07/15/90  Time: 10:27:46

A cool park for the patrons (or some set of them) won't solve the problem
down on the playing field.  
 
Face it, folks.  Phoenix isn't going to get a major league team unless they
build a domed stadium, and Phoenix isn't going to do that.
 
We are going to have a white elephant if we build a baseball stadium.

Message: 67526
Author: $ Shirley Bear
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Welcome Back
Date: 07/15/90  Time: 11:14:14

"Hi" Paul,
     Welcome back.  Hope you had a real good vacation.  I will be
looking forward  seeing you at the GT on July 28th.
     Catch ya later.

                        ***** Shirley *****

Message: 67527
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Stadium
Date: 07/15/90  Time: 12:48:26

        They are NOT going to make a covered stadium, so how do you feel it
will be cooler?  Besides, let the people buying tickets (the neanderthals)
pay for the stadium.  I resent paying for something I won't use!
        If it was the ONLY thing they were ever going to have us pay for
with sales tax, it would be one thing... but the list keeps getting longer,
and those 1/4 and 1/2 cent tax hikes do add up.    You guys won't be happy
till we pay $1.00 tax to spend 10 cents!

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 67528
Author: Ronnie Coffin
Category: Bulletins
Subject: Crossroads
Date: 07/15/90  Time: 13:37:28

CROSSROADS is a multiuser online database featuring:
 
   *  Multi-user chat
   *  Multiple Message Bases
   *  Micro computer support for IBM's, ATARI's, COMMODORE's, AMIGA's,
      APPLE's, MACINTOSH's, TANDY PRODUCTS, and UNIX/XENIX systems
   *  Protocol file transfers and downloads using ASCII, Xmodem, Ymodem,
      Zmodem and Kermit protocol's.  Over 500 MEGABYES of Files/Info
   *  MANY Online games and multi-player games including Kingdom (AD&D),
   *  Over 500+ adventure game solutions and maps (this is the LARGEST
      collection of adventure game walk-thrus in the country!)
   *  USENET WORLDWIDE ELECTRONIC MAIL AND MESSAGE SUBSYSTEM
      with 400 message categories covering almost every topic
      imaginable!  Usenet has over 60 megabyes of all NEW material
      every 10 days.  Usenet articles and downloads are received at
      the rate of 2-4 MEGABYTES per DAY!
 
CROSSROADS ------>>>>               602/941-2005
 
For FREE TRIAL ACCESS, at the login prompt type: guest
 

Message: 67529
Author: Ronnie Coffin
Category: Bulletins
Subject: Usenet
Date: 07/15/90  Time: 13:38:20

Usenet is the worlds' largest networked communication system.
It is telecommunications' best source for conference
publications, public domain/shareware software sources for
ALL computers, messages, questions and answers for over 450
different catagories covering every interest imaginable.
Normally, Usenet is only available through large corporation
like Microsoft, Apple, Sun, AT&T etc or to students in major
universities.
 
Currently, CROSSROADS is the only public access Usenet node
in Arizona.  Information obtained via the Usenet network
comes in at the rate of 2-4 MEGABYTES per DAY!
 
Crossroads is now offering FREE guest access so that modem
users in the Valley can explore this "state-of-the-art"
service at their convenience without worry of fees or costs.
 
To try out this FREE offer, login as: guest
 
CROSSROADS ------------>>>>   602-941-2005
 

Message: 67530
Author: Jeff Lochansky
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cake
Date: 07/15/90  Time: 14:19:04

I just hope the cake from smitty's doesn't come with a rope in it.
Hey clif, make shure you have enough money in your checking account before
you go buy it.   ***** just some satire *****
   THE MAD MAX

Message: 67531
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: GT Cake
Date: 07/15/90  Time: 16:24:44

Well. Shoot.
I might be able to con my grandmother into making an Asutralian
delicacy for dessert...it's called "Pavlova". The way she makes
it will delight everyone.
Then again, I might not be able to since she is very very old now.
(Born 1901).
 
Hey Melissa, you said "you're on top"...that's the way I *like* it.
(smile).
 
Hey Cliff, Eeeuuuuwwwwchhh...I have a ** SPACE ** next to me of all
things. Yeeechhh.

Message: 67532
Author: Hans Glans
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Smitty's bashing.
Date: 07/15/90  Time: 17:53:24

What do you all think of the situation that happened a few nights ago.
My feelings are between the old rock and hard place. The guy needed to be
caught. Anyone who owns or has owned a business knows how much bad checks
cost you...But they used excessive force.

Message: 67533
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: smitty's murder
Date: 07/15/90  Time: 19:07:19

I think that the Smitty's employee should get the gas chamber. That might
teach 'em a lesson.

Message: 67534
Author: Jeff Lochansky
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: smitty's murder
Date: 07/15/90  Time: 20:20:43

The title say's it all, because thats what I think it is. Can you believe
the guts of those guy's associating them selfs with the Us Army rangers and
Special Forces? I've just got to get their names and do some checking with
some folks back at Ft Bragg, no Ranger would have done that, believe me
because I'm an Ex Ranger. They didn't teach us how to kill indescriminent
like that. God I'm so p..... Off, you all wouldn't believe it.
   THE MAD MAX

Message: 67535
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Answer!
Subject: Thanks
Date: 07/15/90  Time: 21:04:10

Bill, yes I did boil water but I also sat behind and held Jasmine in
position.  My little son Jon kept giving me fresh cloths soaked in cool
water so I could mop Jasmine's brow.  Jon grew rather pale in the final
moments but Melody who is around 5 or 6 kept very cool during the entire
event.

It's been quite a week not only from the heat of the past week but Jasmine's
delivery and then two and a half days later my daughter Christian had a
little girl delivered at home.

Jeff, isn't Christian around 12 or 13, I forget, which?

It has been a busy period for me.

Message: 67536
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Thanks again
Date: 07/15/90  Time: 21:08:25

I thank all of you for your nice message on the baby.

Special note to Bob T.:  But I did most of the original work.


Message: 67537
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Apollo
Date: 07/15/90  Time: 21:26:53

I have a lot of material to study since I haven't been on here since last
Wednesday.

I will just say that I believe that religion in general has caused and is
still causing damage to this world.

It is the opiate of the masses.  

Somehow I see the world as being a better place without it.  One does not
need religion in order to have morals.

Message: 67538
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Smitty's Murder?
Date: 07/15/90  Time: 21:43:38

        It was an improper choke hold that killed the suspect.  In the
police depatment they teach you how to do a correct choke hold, and even out
at USMA, they have shown the correct way so as not to cause death.
        
        Second, the jerk should have never said..."Get the gun".   You never
use those words to bluff.  If ya can't BITE, don't bark!

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 67539
Author: $ John Cummings
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Death at Smitty's
Date: 07/15/90  Time: 23:15:59

        Right on Clif, if you can't bite, don't bark! The guys at Smitty's
were under a load of pressure (any retailer is, wit the bad check problem)
and they acted so. They went too far, they exercised too much force, and
they didn't do it right. (There is a right way to do it, right Mad Max?)
They did it wrong. But I don't think it is time to call them murderers--I
think they acted the best way they could with the info they had at hand. I
hope I act in a wiser fashion if called upon.    --John C.--

Message: 67540
Author: Ronnie Coffin
Category: Bulletins
Subject: Crossroads BBS
Date: 07/15/90  Time: 23:28:03

I am announcing that beginning this Monday, The Crossroads BBS is offering
FREE membership validation (a $35.00 value) to all new callers plus a credit
for 120 minutes of free time.

This is a multiline system with on-line games and over 200 megabytes of
files.  It is run on a Cray workstation!

CALL THE CROSSROADS:  941-2005  24 hrs.  300/1200/2400/9600

Message: 67541
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
Subject: Guest List
Date: 07/15/90  Time: 23:33:52

Ann Oudin
Beauregard Dog
Bill Burkett
Bob Thornburg
Gordon Little
Jeff Beck
Jeff Lochansky (Mad-Max)
Melissa Dee
(( space ))
Mike Carter
(( space ))
Mike Kielsky
Pat Stoddard
Paul Savage
Rod Williams
Shirley Bear
Steven Carls
Todd Reese

Re: Cake & Paul Savage...   Smitty's.... thanks!  Welcome back!

Anyone else?  Roger Mann?  Hans Glans?   ?   ?  and so on......

Message: 67542
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: baseball
Date: 07/16/90  Time: 00:11:29

Public taxes should go toward public facilities; essential public works,
such as roads and utilities.  That's it.  If you want a stadium, fine, you
finance it.

Message: 67543
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Rod/babies
Date: 07/16/90  Time: 00:14:53

Yes, I think Christian turns thirteen next month.  Is she still dating that
Guru from Oregon?  If he really wants he to be his chief wife, fine, but get
it in writing.

Message: 67544
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jeff/last
Date: 07/16/90  Time: 03:00:21

No, she married a Mormon from Oregon.  She is one of many.

Message: 67545
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Smitty's
Date: 07/16/90  Time: 03:02:36

Smith's Super Market set the whole thing up.  They paid professional actors
to play the part of the policemen and the bad check artist.  Now Smith's
will try for a leveraged buy out of that chain.

Message: 67547
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: John C./ planner
Date: 07/16/90  Time: 03:07:18

If you are trying to lead me to the conclusion that there is a 'planner'
who planned everything then I do not think that you will be fruitful in
your endeavor.  

Let us suppose, for argument sake that a being exists that planned every
detail of every human and, of course, left the incidentals, such as what
each snow flake would look like and what color something would be to Mother
Nature.

Now, everything is all planned out for all eternity.

We then must realize in these pea-sized brains of ours that eternity is a
mighty long while, to say the very least.

But in truth I believe that theory is a bit backwards.  Each instant is
new, so to speak, it can only take the action that is caused by other
actions of greater or sometimes lesser value.

From the very beginning of life in the universe, one action causes another
action, for infinity.

If you currently believe that a planner caused the first life in this
universe then that would be in error because what planner caused the
planner.  Life would have to have always existed which is a paradox.

It is really impossible to correctly say how life came about but I would
hazard a guess that since it did then life in the universe is like building
blocks and one is put upon another, forever.  Everything is not
pre-planned as you indicate.  

If something were planned then it could only be planned for a certain
period but when the plans are all played out, like players on a stage, then
what lies ahead would be not planned.  This is a rather shallow theory on
your part and does not contain good scientific thought. 

However, if you are into sci-fi and the like then why not?

If events of humans are planned out then a certain percentage of us are
ascertained to fail even before being created.  And if everyone who ever
will be created is already accounted for then the planner must have
everything down and understood.  How marvelous.  And for all of eternity no
less.  

Sorry, I cannot buy that theory as it is too week.  Give it some more
thought and then see what you come up with.
                
                                        Rod

e*=&PH
VOICE