Apollo BBS Archive

Apollo BBS Archive - July 26, 1987


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Message: 1625
Author: $ Mike Howerton
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: fights
Date: 07/26/87  Time: 06:53:20

Me in a leather jacket??
That would be quite a concept.
I imagine a leather jacket swung in someone's face could
become quite bothersome.
Nahh, I wasn't in Tempe.  I was in Sunnyslope.
Someone thought that I had some money that belonged to him
and I didn't.  He made some bad bets and I guess he didn't want
to pay. He shouldn't bet on something unless he is sure that it will pay.
Oh well.

Message: 1626
Author: $ Laura Lansberry
Category: Answer!
Subject: ART
Date: 07/26/87  Time: 14:39:12

         ___________________________________
        O_______________________            \
         _______________________|\           \
        O_______________________\|            \
         ______________________________________\
        O______________________________________| 

Anything is possible on an ARTBOARD if you try. And if I post something and
somebody criticizes it ... let them do better if they can. Hey Ann, do I do
bad work? Acceptable right? Challenege ... if an ARTBOARD goes up I'll make
some entries and if anyone can do better I will let them call me names for
an hour.
Seriously, sounds like fun. Besides since I can't afford to keep 5 grand
tied up in a BBS where else can I post ... how do you do uploads here? Hmmmm
have to figure that out to save user time. Bye for now!

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 1:Nice work.  Check this out.
 2: 
 3:                         () ()
 4:                           /
 5:                          ===
 6:end

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Message: 45359
Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: James White
Date: 07/26/87  Time: 04:50:12

Though you may be a biblical scholar of sorts, you seem ignorant to many of
the problems people have with a belief in God.

Much of what you present here is defense to accuracy of scripture. Assuming
for a moment that you are correct in your position, we are still left with a
number of unpleasant irregularities with which to contend. For example, we
are expected to have unshakeable faith in God and His motives. We are to
believe that we are provided with free will, and that we choose our destiny.
Yet, through the course of our lives, we are constantly confronted by the
ravages of disease, famine, old age, and natural disaster. None of these are
entirely within our control, but we are expected to have faith in God and
His reasons for allowing such catastrophies in life.

How are we to keep faith in God as an all-loving entity? Love from one's
creator must seem so distant in the mind of a 12 year old leukemia victim.

Message: 45360
Author: $ James White
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Nick Ianuzzi
Date: 07/26/87  Time: 08:29:06

I appreciate your comments.  I hope you realize that I cannot deal with
every topic - there are far more questions than time in the day to answer
them all.  Also, I need to deal with the topics as raised.  Many have
attacked (or questioned to use less abrasive language) the validity and
accuracy of the Bible.  As a Christian, I am a person of the Book.  My
system is based on that volume and its teachings.  Therefore, I must needs
refer to it and explain it if what I am saying is going to make any sense.
    Now, I am not ignoring the questions you bring up - I just haven't had
dinner with anyone lately who brought it up!  I'm just running out the door
right now to go to church, so I will have to take some time this afternoon
and reply to your post.  Its not easy to do in this mode of communication,
you know?  As Burkhart mentioned to me, you can't put intonations and facial
expressions into anything at 1200 BAUD, and that decreases the efficiency of
the communication.  It also tends (from what I've observed) to make each
person seem more harsh and angry than he/she really is.  I guess that is one
of the short-falls of BBSing.
James>>>

Message: 45361
Author: Billi Idyll
Category: My Dinner with...
Subject: Jim White
Date: 07/26/87  Time: 08:49:06

        Muscles bunched at the corners of my jaw as I ground my teeth. 
"Listen, Jim, pulling my status, or non-status into this is just the sort of
thing I've come to expect from bigotted, narrow-minded Christians like you.
ucko, you're not going to let yourself get pinned down.  Ultimately I can
see this discussion coming down to a point where if I deliver a logical
argument, as I have repeatedly, you'll slime out claiming 'That's not my
definition of Christianity...'  As a matter of fact I do have a scholarly
background in history and I know the Bible rather well.  I know that book
can be quoted anyway you want it to be.  I also happen to know most RATIONAL
bible scholars agree that the gospels were written, perhaps from eye-witness
accounts, but were written at least 20 years after the Christs death.  Hell,
Time carried an article last year about scholars arguing about which gospel
was written first, and the were knocking the year 70 AD around.
        But, I don't expect you to acknowledge that idea, and you'll poo-poo
it if I call it a fact.  You need the bible to back everything up, and if it
contradicts another source, that source is wrong."
        I stared hard at him.  "You and I both know, for example, there is
not documentary evidence that Hitler ever ordered the Holocaust, but, I
hope, neither one of us doubts it ever took place.  We know Homer quoted and
cited historical occurances in the Oddessey, but neither of us, coming from
a Judeo-Christian background, is going to suggest Apollo and other Greek
Gods exist.  The difference between us, Jim White, is that I didn't have a
double handful of brains scooped out when I decided to  form a relationship
with God.  You limit your saviour, and you disgust me."

Message: 45362
Author: $ Joe Bottomlee
Category: Answer!
Subject: Joy/Sorrow
Date: 07/26/87  Time: 09:32:04

When I said there could be no joy without sorrow, I meant no one would know
what joy was. Everything has an oppsite. If everthing was the same, as in an
all blue world, life would be pretty dull.
We all want the good times without the bad. Me enclued. But the bad times
are when we learn the most. Remember the first time you got burn! That was
painfull wasn't it? You don't need another lesson that when something is
very hot, don't touch! You might say that lesson is burned into your memory!
Ouch!
 
                                                  <<< Joe >>>

Message: 45363
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Religion
Subject: Joe Bottmomlee
Date: 07/26/87  Time: 10:37:37

I agree with you when you said that "we learn the most when things are
bad"!! Such as - when a child gets burnt - he usually learns that if he does
it again, it'll hurt again etc. etc. We all have that learning process - but
what about some - lets say unexplained bad times with seemingl no reasons!!
Like - a child with terminal cancer? - an old person whos body has betrayed
them and suffer daily pain from cateracts, arthritis, bad stomach, general
dibilitation - NOT through any fault of their own. Now don't come back and
tell me that if they had taken care of themselves, they probably wouldn't
have those problems. THATS NOT TRUE!! I know of many old people that have
thoughly taken care of themselves and still ended up like the above! That is
a falicy cooked up by the health fad people. People are heathier today
because their parents were healthier is all. Your gonna die no matter what.
Anyway - thats getting off the subject --- Do you believe that God gives
these above mentioned people those problems? -- ANN ---

Message: 45364
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Religion
Subject: James White
Date: 07/26/87  Time: 11:24:27

I swore I wouldn't get into this - but Nick Ianuzzi DID make a point. I know
you are answering questions put to you, but don't you have time for more
cold hearted facts James. (OOPS - here I go again folks with "facts"!) Your
only arguing the Bible as text - as a historical fact etc. etc. It doesn't
make sense that God punishes us as He does - like original sin - old age -
cancer ----! I might be made to understand that Paul was converted on the
road to Damascus - but I certainly do not aree with alot he said. Lets talk
about that! If the Bible is so acruate - why so many contridictions? Now
don't tell me it takes a learned preacher to explain the Bible. That does't
make a bit of since that God would create the Bible and then have a chosen
few tell everyone else what it means! Lets talk about that! Why is God so
secretive? Why doesn't He reveal himself? We certainly need Him now more
than ever. Lets talk about that! And John and Revelations!! I'm I suppose to
live in fear because of what he said? It sounds like he was either on
something or had a bad dream!! The Bible is supppose to be God's word. I
only see man's word mixed up in there. Lets talk about that! I'm not
attacking you James - these are questions many ask of a preacher and if we
get Biblical responses - how can you help? Especially if we only at best -
half believe the Bible? With all your responses to Rod and the others, you
havn't made me at least understand anything. I admire and respect your
beliefs - thats all fine and good, but you are not teaching so far - only
defending. OF course, I am assumning you wnat to teach. So come down a bit
to us floundering ones huh?? I'm interested. --- ANN ---

Message: 45365
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: In search of
Subject: Life
Date: 07/26/87  Time: 12:05:24

...
  Statistically, the probability of any one of us being here
is so small that you'd think the mere fact of existing would
keep us all in a contented dazzlement of surprise.  We are 
alive against the stupendous odds of genetics, infinitely
outnumbered by all the alternates who might, except for 
luck, be in our places.
  Even more astounding is our statistical improbability in
physical terms.  The normal, predictable state of matter
throughout the universe is randomness, a relaxed sort of
equilibrium, with atoms and their particles scattered around
in an amorphous muddle.  We, in brilliant contrast, are
completely organized structures, squirming with information
at every covalent bond.  We make our living by catching 
electrons at the moment of their excitement by solar 
photons, swiping the energy released at the instant of each
jump and storing it up in intricate loops for ourselves.  We
violate probability, by our nature.  To be able to do this
systematically, and in such wild varieties of form, from
viruses to whales, is extremely unlikely; to have sustained 
the effort successfully for the several billion years of our
existence, without drifting back into randomness, was nearly
a mathematical impossibility.
  Add to this the biological improbability that makes each

Message: 45366
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: In search of
Subject: Life
Date: 07/26/87  Time: 12:17:23

member of our own species unique.  Everyone is one in 3
billion at the moment, which describes the odds.  Each of us
is a self-contained, free-standing individual, labeled by
specific protein configurations at the surface of cells,
identifiable by whorls of fingertip skin, maybe even by 
special medleys of fragrance.  You'd think we'd never stop
dancing.
  Perhaps it is not surprising that we do not live more
surprised.  After all, we are used to unlikelihood.  Being
born into it, raised in it, we become acclimated to the 
altitude, like natives in the Andes.  Moreover, we all know
that the astonishment is transient, and sooner or later our
particles will all go back to being random.
  Also, there are reasons to suspect that we are really not
the absolute, pure entities that we seem.  We have some 
sense of ordinariness, and it tends to diminish our 
surprise.  Despite all the evidences of biological privacy
in our cells and tissues (to the extent that a fragment of
cell membrane will be recognized and rejected between any
conceivable pairs among the 3 billion, excepting identical
twins), there is a certain slippage in our brains.  No one,
in fact, can lay claim with certainty to his own mind with
anything like the specificity stipulated by fingerprints or
tissue antigens.

Message: 45368
Author: $ Laura Lansberry
Category: Politics
Subject: Jaynes
Date: 07/26/87  Time: 14:04:43

Checked my back mail Princeton was right ... it's been years. I wrote him
when the book first came out.

Message: 45369
Author: $ Laura Lansberry
Category: Religion
Subject: Belief
Date: 07/26/87  Time: 14:17:53

Belief or lack of it is a choice and the opinion of the holder. If one
chooses to believe the question that arises then, in my mind, is how does
someone dying on a cross save anyone from sin, assuming there is such a
thing as sin?
What is the cause and effect relationship?
If my house is on fire, and your house is on fire, and Joe's, Jane's, Ann's,
and so on has a house on fire ... how would a Son of God coming to earth and
saying I will burn down my house to save your house do anything to save
anyone's house?
Assuming we are all sinners, how did a flesh and blood sacrifice excuse us
from sin? What is the reasoning? Where is the logic in this?
Are we supposedly saved because we are willing to believe it happened?
                         
Question 2:
If the Bible is inspired and God saw fit to inspire it as a means of proving
his existance then why didn't he protect it from being poorly translated?
Why is it garbaged up with so many errors in later editions? Did he only
choose to protect the original versions? Why only the original versions ...
did he not care if anyone modern believed? I have seen many bibles with
typographical errors, not an insignifigant error in a book said to be
protected by God?

YOU requested new questions: I have never seen these asked on any board
before. And there are lots more questions.

Message: 45370
Author: $ Laura Lansberry
Category: Religion
Subject: cont.
Date: 07/26/87  Time: 14:26:01

A child with Leukemia? That is the least of my questions.
How about a child machine gunned in the gut and left to lie there with big
soulful eyes in terrible agony and pain for hours before dying? Or someone
falling from an airplane 2000 feet, breaking every bone in their body,
thanking God they are still alive ... where was God when that person fell
from the plane? Napping!
    There maybe something doing something in our lives as it is moved or as
we call upon it ... but it is not omniscient, omnipotent, omni-present, and
omni-loving. Maybe it is none of those things ...

In the Old Testament the Character of God is dramatically different from the
God of the New Testament. The Old God was an angry, wrathful, kill 'em to
the last man, woman, child, and livestock type of critter ... the God of
the New Testament is a God of love and forgiveness ... did he evolve, or was
it that mankind evolved and so needed to see God in a different light?

Enough for now ... just heard that someone wanted some new questions cause
the old ones were being repetitious. Bye for now!

Message: 45371
Author: Joan Chevalier
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: hello!
Date: 07/26/87  Time: 14:55:24

I haven't been on this system in a long while and so I'm first going to say
hello.  It's interesting.  The last time I was on the board a big debate on
homosexuality was just winding up and the religious debate was just
beginning.  That was back in early June.  And here I am after a long absence
and the religious debate is still going strong.  I'm gonna sit this one out.
From the posts I've read, some interesting questions have been posed.

Message: 45372
Author: Leanmean Strings
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: INTRODUCING...
Date: 07/26/87  Time: 15:49:58

 *** Fellow Computer Enthusiasts ***
I am a new kid on the block. My name is Lean Mean Strings.
No, it's not my REAL name, but it does stand for my second favorate
passtime, 
                            M U S I C !!!
                          I won't say the first.

                            -=lean strings=-

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Subject:WOW

Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
 1:I guess I'm going to have a lot of company in hell, good.
 2:
 3:  I was thinking last night and I recalled something from this board long 
 4:ago, I will take a shot at explaining it:
 5:  If god can learn then he doesn't know everything, if he can't learn then 
 6:he know everything, and 
 7:end

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Subject:James White

Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
 1:Back from the bathroom, where I puked my guts out, trying to come up with 
 2:the answer for Jim and the stone, I feel better now, less afraid.
 3:"Jim", I say, "Bob can only lift a stone that is as big as the universe, any
 4:bigger and it can not be lifted."  "But between He and Bobra I believe they 
 5:can take care of all of it."
 6:  "Totally stupid Rot", smirks Jim
 7:  "Yea, well, I just wanted to answer you question and I have, so I will now
 8:let you get on to answering some of the other users questions, like Nick and
 9:Ann and Laura, not to forget Jim Lippards and certainally let's not forget 
10:Burkhart, to be sure."  "It has been nice, until we meet again."
11:                                Rod
12:end

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 7: "Yea, well, I just wanted to answer your question and I have, so I will now

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 1:Science can only ascertain what is, but not what should be, and value 
 2:judgements of all kinds remain outside of its domain. ---
 3:                                Albert Einstein, 1950
 4:end

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