Apollo BBS Archive

Apollo BBS Archive - July 19, 1987

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Message: 1567
Author: $ David Burkhart
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Eddings
Date: 07/19/87  Time: 14:51:37

I dislike "epic fantasy," but I too would place Edding's books among the
best I've read.
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Message: 45200
Author: $ Alan Hamilton
Category: Question?
Subject: The Boss
Date: 07/19/87  Time: 05:22:11

  Okay, then, let's talk about you, Cliff......
 
     /
 /  *  /  Alan
*     *

Message: 45201
Author: $ Joe Bottomlee
Category: Question?
Subject: Rod/Circle K
Date: 07/19/87  Time: 06:55:18

Rod, What do you think about what Circle K management did about the mam with
the void second place ticket? You seem quick to critize (sp) but slow to
praise.

                                       <<< Joe >>>

Message: 45202
Author: $ Joe Bottomlee
Category: Religion
Subject: The Big Why Question
Date: 07/19/87  Time: 07:03:24

I'm all the time hearing (seeing) people saying if God was so and so, why
does he allow so and so to happen. Some of you think God should have made a
world with no troubles. He should have created a world were everyone was
happy all the time.
This would be impossible.
For with out sorrow there would be no joy.
I will leave you with that simple thought. Think about it.

                                 <<< Joe >>>

Message: 45203
Author: $ James White
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Evolution
Date: 07/19/87  Time: 08:15:09

I won't bother posting silly poems - rather, I'd like to suggest the reading
of a recent release here in America by Dr. Michael Denton called "Evolution
 A Theory in Crisis."  It is a hardback from Adler and Adler.  He
is not a creationist per se; he is a molecular biologist.  It is heavy
reading (I've just begun) and at times will require a solid foundation in
organic chemistry and genetics.  He deals with the real issues, not silly
poems.  For those of you truly interested in the subject on a level other
than the most basic, and who want a scholarly discussion of the subject, it
would be worth the $19.95 or so.
   Have a nice Lord's day!

James>>>

Message: 45204
Author: Billi Idyll
Category: My Dinner with...
Subject: God
Date: 07/19/87  Time: 08:31:51

I shook my head.  "Ok, Iknow you exist because I've seen you put away a
mountain of fries." I pointed to his empty plate.  "I realize that
rhetorical questions  like, "can God make a rock so big he can't lift it?"
are logic traps, and that logic does not really apply because belief in God
is a matter of faith.  But I've got one question that I hope you can
answer."
        "What is it?" God asked.
        "If man has free will, how can you know everything?"
        God smile easily.  "I understand everything and know it much in the
same way you can know and understand the total layout of a maze your going
to shove a rat into for testing.  You know the whole maze, but you can't
predict exactly what the rat will do.  Granted, reality is a much bigger
things, but the principle is the same."
        I nodded.  "OK, I guess I can handle that.  I think you'd agree the
world is a mess.  Why doesn't Jesus come back as promised?"
        God laughed.  "What, you think he's MacArthur?"  He leaned forward. 
"Man has not changed that much in the last 2000 years, really, right?"
        I nodded.  "Sure."
        God smiled.  "Would you be in any hurry to return to a world that
gave you the sort of send-off he got last time?"

Message: 45205
Author: Billi Idyll
Category: My Dinner with...
Subject: Stephen J. Gould
Date: 07/19/87  Time: 08:42:33

        "Dr. Gould, I'm so glad you could come to lunch."
        The Harvard paleobiologist and expert in evolution sat down
carefully and looked around cautiously.  He jerked a thumb at some of the
patrons behind us.  "Is that Satan talking to an Atheist over there?"
        I nodded, then pointed to God and Tom Leykis negotiating God's
appearance on Tom's show.  "And that's God talking with an Atheist over
there."  Gould and I watched Satan pass Rod an envelope.  "And it looks like
Satan pays better.
        Gould cleared his voice, scanned the menu, paled and spoke.  "You
said you had a question for me?"
        "Yes.  Is evolution a theory?"
        Gould laughed.  "As I said in an article in DISCOVER magazine last
year, EVOLUTION IS NOT A THEORY.  We know evolution happened.  We can see it
in the fossil record, and in living creatures that have grown apart.  We can
even see it in the embryo development of animals, including humans."
        "Then what's the problem?" I asked.
        Gould grew serious.  "The theory in question is not evolution, it is
'survival of the fittest.'  My theory of punctuated equilibrium is only one
of several new theories battling to replace survival of the fittest, yet all
we argue, really, is refinements of theories to try and reflect the evidence
we have.  Evolution is fact, the mechanism is theory."
        I nodded.  "What about creationists who say you'll go to hell for
your beliefs?"
        "If I have to join them," Gould said, "I'd be in hell."

Message: 45206
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: For sale
Subject: SX-64
Date: 07/19/87  Time: 10:29:30

        We have a used Commodore SX-64 portable computer, and included in
the deal is a Commodore 803 printer and a BMC mono monitor.  (the SX-64 has
a built in color monitor also)
        All the above items for only $325.00

SYSOP ClifFORD of GEMINI Computer Inc.

Message: 45207
Author: $ Jim Lippard
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Joe Bottomlee
Date: 07/19/87  Time: 11:12:20

That is a bogus argument.  It's like hitting yourself over the head with a
hammer because it feels so good when you stop.  There is absolutely no
logical contradiction in an omnipotent being creating a world in which
everyone was happy all the time--in fact, isn't that what heaven is supposed
to be like?  The claim that good cannot exist without evil is tantamount to
saying that nothing can exist unless its opposite also exists.  What is the
contradiction in imagining a universe without light?  Or a universe full of
stars, which would be fully lit?  Or a universe in which everything is
painted blue?

Message: 45208
Author: $ Jim Lippard
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jim White
Date: 07/19/87  Time: 11:18:41

I think it should be pointed out that F.F. Bruce's work is ultraconservative
biblical scholarship.  I believe the mainstream is far closer to the views
presented in my pamphlet than to yours (with the exception of Wells' thesis
that Jesus never existed).
   As for the Qumran "fragment seemingly from the gospel of Mark",
O'Callaghan's idnetification is of a 17-letter fragment, which matches up
with Mark after dropping "three short words".  His identification of a
five-letter fragment and a seven-letter fragment are even more questionable.
 Here's what one person has said about the biggest fragment: "17 letters! 
Not even one complete word in the biggest piece, a pinhead of evidence on
which to balance an inverted pyramid of speculation.  God sure is stingy
with his evidence!"
   Also, even if the fragment IS of Mark, that does NOT rule out a late
dating.  There are two arguments given for an early date:  1.
Archaeologists say cave 7 was sealed in 70 C.E. 2. The fragments are written
in the "Zierstil" style of writing which allegedly was only used up to
around 50 C.E.  Both of these arguments are very weak.  1. NT material in
the cave is evidence *against* that cave being part of the Essen monastery,
which is dated as being not later than 68 C.E. due to coins unearthed.  If
these fragments are in an unrelated cave, there is no basis for linking the
dates.  2. Zierstil style writings have been found in Pompeii which were
buried by Vesuvius in 79 C.E.  These Qumran fragments could just as easily
have been produced that late.

Message: 45209
Author: $ Jim Lippard
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jim White/dating
Date: 07/19/87  Time: 11:21:39

Presuppositions in dating:  John A.T. Robinson's technique is faulty.  For
example, he says that Acts doesn't mention Nero's persecution, therefore it
must have been written in 62 C.E.  Here's a quote from a friend: "I have
here a history of the Roman Republic.  It doesn't mention Nero either.  It
leaves off with a brief mention of Augustus and no later emperors.  So was
this book written in 62 A.D.?  Says here it was written in 1980.  In general
you can date books by what they _do_ mention, but _not_ by what they leave
out.  If a book mentions some Great Fire of 1726, it must have been written
after 1726.  If it doesn't mention the Fire, that _doesn't_ mean it must
have been written _before_ 1726.  The author may have chosen not to include
the Fire in his book for any number of reasons."

Message: 45210
Author: $ Jim Lippard
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jim White/kinds
Date: 07/19/87  Time: 11:25:13

The term "kind" doesn't seem to have any consistent meaning AT ALL.  The
creationists use of it shifts with the wind.  If "a dog is a dog" and all
dogs split off from one "dog kind" after the flood, then you are a pretty
radical evolutonist.  Chihuahuas and Great Danes are pretty dramatically
different.  Did all 300,000+ species of beetle come from a single "beetle
kind"?  That's incredibly rapid speciation--more rapid than Gould and
Eldredge's punctuated equilibria!  Also, creationists wouldn't hesitate to
put gibbons and siamangs in the same "ape kind", since they are quite
closely related genetically.  But human beings and chimpanzees are even
closer to each other than those two species--so why aren't they in the same
"kind"?
   There are also snake-like lizards and lizard-like snakes... is theree one
big "snake & lizard" kind, or are they separate kinds?  Either way leads the
creationists into inconsistency.

Message: 45211
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Answer!
Subject: Joe/Circle K
Date: 07/19/87  Time: 12:24:36

If I am reading you correctly, I personally thought that (K) should own up
to their obligations and pay the man $20,000.  I wrote them a letter as I am
sure a lot of others did.  I criticized them for not having Pepsi in  their
soft-drink fountain selection too.  
I guess you heard by now that they paid the man his money.
Why, how do you think it should have been handled, just ignore him since he
didn't read or write english?
                                Rod
P.S.  I believe the man used a US Currency Note to make his purchase.

Message: 45212
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Answer!
Subject: Joe/Heaven
Date: 07/19/87  Time: 12:32:02

Yea Joe, according to you heaven will be your reward, eternal bliss but how
will you enjoy being there for all that while when after many eons you will
have soon forgotton your hardships on earth?
  Perhaps god will arrange a tragedy from time to time just so you will
be able to renew your enjoyment.  
                                        Rod

Message: 45213
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rat in a maze
Date: 07/19/87  Time: 12:48:01

Do you mean that god wouldn't know which way the rat would go because it has

'FREE WILL'?  If there is truly such a person as a god then that entity
would know all of the capabilities of the rat or human, know its EXACT
thoughts and could logically determine whether it was a good creation or a
mistake.  God would know whether a particular human was a psychopath or a
mellow critter.  
If a creation proved to be psyco then would god only allow it to harm others
who 'deserved' punishment or would this menace be allowed to harm who ever
it pleased?
  There are too many 'unanswerables' with this theory.  Christians give
their god a lot of credit but pull back on some important things.
God is responsible for ALL evil as well as ALL good and since this world is
primilarily evil, I'd say that god was too.
  God then creates humans that he knows will be evil (just from the previous
tract record).  God creates many humans and logically he should be able to
deduce that a certain percentage of them WILL be eternally punished.
  SOME GOD, eh?  Although at the moment of creation any god worth its salt
should know whether it will be a good creation or a bad one.
  I can only conclude that Christians have a fairly ignorant god.
  But that's life, eh!
                                Rod
Message: 45214
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: In search of
Subject: Life
Date: 07/19/87  Time: 14:40:27

...
  Who ever sees dead birds, in anything like the huge
numbers stipulated by the certainty of the death of all 
birds?  A dead bird is an incongruity, more startling than
an unexpected live bird, sure evidence to the human mind 
that something has gone wrong.  Birds do their dying off
somewhere, behind things, under things, never on the wing.
  Animals seem to have an instinct for performing death 
alone, hidden.  Even the largest, most conspicuous ones find
ways to conceal themselves in time.  If an elephant missteps
and dies in an open place, the herd will not leave him 
there; the others will pick up and carry the body from place
to place, finally putting it down in some inexplicably
suitable location.  When elehants encounter the skeleton of
an elephant out in the open, they methodically take up each
of the bones and distribute them, in a ponderous ceremony,
over neighboring acres.
...
  In our way, we conform as best we can to the rest of 
nature.  The obituary pages tell us of the news that we are
dying away, while the birth announcements in finer print, 
off at the side of the page, inform us of our replacements,
but we get no grasp from this of the enormity of scale.  
There are 3 billion of us on the earth, and all 3 billion

Message: 45215
Author: $ David Burkhart
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Joe/Circle K
Date: 07/19/87  Time: 14:50:04

I don't think Circle K is really deserving of praise.  They gave in only
after public pressure, and the man had to get a lawyer (which he'll now have
to pay.)  They blew it, and their attempts to fix it aren't really something
that Circle K should be praised for.

Message: 45216
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: In search of
Subject: Life
Date: 07/19/87  Time: 15:01:49

must be dead, on a schedule, within this lifetime.  The vast
mortality, involving something over 5 million of us each 
year, takes place in relative secrecy.  We can only really 
know of the deaths in our households, or among our friends.
These, detached in our minds from all the rest, we take to
be unnatural events, anomalies, outrages.  We speak of our
own death in low voices; struck down, we say, as though
visible death can only occur for cause, by disease or 
violence, avoidably.  We send off for flowers, grieve, make
ceremonies, scatter bones, unaware of the rest of the 3
billion on the same schedule.  All of that immense mass of
flesh and bone and consciousness will disappear by 
absorption into the earth, without recognition by the 
transient survivors.

Message: 45217
Author: $ Traci Sibel
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Circle K
Date: 07/19/87  Time: 16:14:30

I thought they paid when the executive chairman came back from England and
Found out about the whole mess. Did the guy have to get a lawyer?

Message: 45218
Author: $ John Henry
Category: Question?
Subject: James White
Date: 07/19/87  Time: 16:51:11

Please define "kind."
 
Swing 'Dat Hamma
 -John Henry

Message: 45219
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff
Date: 07/19/87  Time: 20:43:20

Sorry about wanting to send them to the Christian Sig. After you bought it
to my attention, I saw where it couldn't be. It just seemed like a bad
religious war was in the air (and world war 3 has started) and best in the
sig. of that name.
Boy - did I get a chuckle when I read the posts - here was all this
religious discussions and right in the middle of James and Jim - here you
were with your "for sale" - Com. sx 64 advertizement. Hahahaha --- ANN

Message: 45220
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Answer!
Subject: Joe Bottomlee
Date: 07/19/87  Time: 20:47:54

But you forget - the Bible says God did create the world without sorrow!! I
don't believe God brings us sorrow - I think we bring our own - I especially
do not believe in original sin either. --- ANN

Message: 45221
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Answer!
Subject: Rod on God
Date: 07/19/87  Time: 21:30:14

"God creates many humans and logically he should be able to deduce that a
certain percentage of them WILL be eternally punished. SOME GOD eh?"
 
Excuse me, God created Adam and Eve (which you deny), we propogated the
rest.
So, Rod, Father of many...how many kids did you bring into the world to
eternally damn then? EH? Some Father you are.
 
Get a little sense, Rod. You, ONLY You are responsible for what you do.
Certain percentage eh? JUST what IS this certain percentage? DO you include
or exclude yourself? 
Freedom has a price....and you're the salesman!
 
You govern what price freedom is for yourself. Wether that be cussing at
your own father and blaming HIM for your deeds or thanking him for what
you have and keeping a close relationship. 
I can clearly envision a room with 200 "Rod" clones. WHen asked who was
to blame for the latest transgression, they'd form a large circle with
fingers pointed to the next guy on the left. A real CIRCUS.
 
                         Glad you aren't a Lawyer...sheesh

                                                  -Mike

Message: 45222
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: last
Date: 07/19/87  Time: 22:33:25

So, Mr. Carter, are you going to have your balls cut off and try to convince
all of your friends to do likewise? If not, what justification can you
possibly have for procreation at some time in your life?
 
Rev. Beau