Apollo BBS Archive

Apollo BBS Archive - July 12, 1987


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Message: 1529
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: KFYI
Date: 07/11/87  Time: 19:50:03

Is there any way I could get a tape or transcript of today's debate?

Message: 1530
Author: $ Jim Lippard
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: last
Date: 07/11/87  Time: 20:05:06

If you really meant KHEP, I can make a tape for you or loan you one.

Message: 1531
Author: $ Mark Adkins
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: wicca et al
Date: 07/12/87  Time: 00:41:35

Perhaps not so much of a switch as you might think. One whacked out
lifestyle is as good as another to those seeking one.

Message: 1532
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Answer!
Subject: Ann
Date: 07/12/87  Time: 01:28:38

It would be better if you would start debating.

Message: 1533
Author: $ Alan Hamilton
Category: Idea for thought
Subject: Wicca
Date: 07/12/87  Time: 10:10:31

  The odd thing was that this woman was actually very reasonable and
intellegent, some things I have noted that most evangelicals lack.
  She was quite willing to admit that of the two kinds of devil worshipers
(those that worship Satan explicitly, and those that have different beliefs
that you do) the Wiccans are the second type.
  I heard the bit about D&D.  I do know that some D&D players do really get
wacked out, but I think that that is from problems they already suffer from,
and isn't 'caused' by D&D.  Quite frankly, if I had to choose between the
Wiccans and the Bakkers and Oral Robberts, I'd take Wicca.
 
     /
 /  *  /  Alan
*     *

Message: 1534
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: James/debate
Date: 07/12/87  Time: 12:03:02

I love a good debate - but we just look at what the word debate means
differently. You will find that most of mine are based on what I see, hear,
experienced etc. To me - this makes them a fact!! I do not truly know how
you come to your conclusions - but do you not think they are facts too? A
good debate is two people telling each other their opinions on a subject -
each making points - each learning from the other - each having an open
mind.! I'm sure you feel the same - but yet, you seem to not want me to
voice my opinions. You appear to be "Looking down" on me instead of
listening. I don't mean I expect you to agree - I mean I want you to respect
my opinion also.  How can I ever learn from you if you constantly put me on
the defence all the time? -- ANN

Message: 1535
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: all/missing
Date: 07/12/87  Time: 12:06:26

Has anyone noticed that Michelle hasn't been on the board for a while? Guess
shes having more fun on "Wild Banana".

Message: 1536
Author: $ Nikki Kalua
Category: Answer!
Subject: Wild Banana
Date: 07/12/87  Time: 14:12:48

I bet!

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Message: 45046
Author: $ Mark Adkins
Category: Question?
Subject: Rod
Date: 07/12/87  Time: 00:38:40

"The flower children are still blooming"?
 
Have you been visiting Fiddler's Dream coffee house again?
 
heh heh...

Message: 45047
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Answer!
Subject: Hamilton
Date: 07/12/87  Time: 01:09:48

Conducting foreign policy is the job of the Executive Branch, not the
Congress.  The Boland Amendment (which, oddly enough, is treated with more
reverence than the Bill of Rights by liberals) was an obscure, and probably
unconstitutional, rider to an appropriations bill.  Violating "the spirit of
the Boland amendment" is a slightly less egregious offense than violating
the spirit of the 55-mile-an-hour speed limit.  Congress's views on
the Nicaraguan freedom-fighters hardly are worthy of serious consideration
anyway, since they have flip-flopped so many times.

Let us face facts.  Congressional Democrats are not looking after any lofty
principles.  They are engaging in a petty partisan battle, trying to
discredit the President and improve their chances of taking the White House
in 1988.  They have found a formidable foe in Oliver North, and he is a
hero, for he has, more than anyone, focused on the real scandal, which is
Congressional indecision about the Communist threat in Central America.  I
too have misgivings about the covert way the freedom-fighters were aided. 
The Reagan Administration should have openly and aggressively promoted
aiding the freedom-fighters, not just in Nicaragua but in Angola,
Mozambique, Afghanistan, Cambodia, Ethiopia, and anywhere else where
anti-communist guerilla movements exist.  Unfortunately, within the
administration there is the same ambivalence as in Congress:  it pushes aid
to the Nicaraguan freedom-fighters, gives some aid to the Angolans and
Afghans (in spite of the efforts of some State Department officials) and
supports foreign aid (including $1 million in military aid) to the

Message: 45048
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Continued
Date: 07/12/87  Time: 01:12:11

Communists in Mozambique!

What is scandalous is not that Oliver North and the NSC covertly supported
the freedom-fighters in Nicaragua.  What is scandalous is that our
government is so wishy-washy that support for freedom-fighters has to be
conducted covertly.  The United States should stand tall and declare itself
a friend of any people that is trying to throw off the yoke of Communist
oppression.

Message: 45049
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Answer!
Subject: Ann
Date: 07/12/87  Time: 01:23:08

Of course statistics can be used in a misleading fashion.  But to reject
statistics altogether because statistics can be lies makes as much sense as
disbelieving anything said in English because it is possible to lie while
speaking English.

Statistics are necessary in order to test general statements about the way
things are.  Let us say you buy a lottery ticket for $1 and win $5,000.  It
is not reasonable to conclude from that that lottery tickets offer a
500,000% return on your investment.  Your particular lottery ticket did, but
in order to make a general statement about the value of lottery tickets, you
would have to look at a large, random sample of the tickets.

Similarly, if you are in a situation where you are paid less than a man for
doing the same job, you may be able to conclude that you are being
discriminated against on the basis of your sex.  You certainly cannot
conclude from this, however, that "Women are discriminated against on the
basis of their sex."  You may be the exception, rather than the rule, just
like the $5,000 lottery ticket.  And in order to find out which you are, you
have to look at the statistics.

Of course, statistics can be misleading because there are often many factors
involved (as indeed there are in individual cases:  the discrepancy between
your pay and the man's isn't necessarily due to discrimination--perhaps he
has seniority, perhaps he simply does a better job than you).  So it is

Message: 45050
Author: $ James Taranto
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Continued
Date: 07/12/87  Time: 01:27:04

important to be careful in interpreting statistics.  Common sense is a good
check on statistics:  those which sound too absurd to mesh with common sense
(women earn 59 cents on the dollar men earn, 2 million homeless Americans, a
million missing children, 50% of women molested as children) can be checked
for either outright fraud (homeless, molestataion) or misleading
interpretations (not accounting for other factors, as in the 59-cent stat
which I have already explained, or the million missing kids which doesn't
distinguish between runaways and actual kidnap victims).

View all statistics with skepticism.  Look for factors not accounted for. 
But to throw up your hands and say, "I don't believe in statistics" is to
take a terribly close-minded attitude.  You might as well just say, "Look, I
don't want to think."

Message: 45051
Author: $ Alan Hamilton
Category: Politics
Subject: JT
Date: 07/12/87  Time: 10:02:31

  The Boland Ammendment:
  Maybe it was unconstitutional, but that should have been decided by the
third branch of government, the Judicial branch.  Our government is not
three independent branches, but three branches that cover each other by
checks and balances.  I think the Iran-Contra hearings qualify as a "check."
Should the executive branch of the government be allowed to ignore any law
passed by Congress that they don't like?  My problem is not with whether the
Contras should be supported or not.  My problem is the means that North &
co. used.  The ends don't justify the means!
  Here's something that was pointed out to me:  The arms that were sold to
Iran were originaly US govt. property, so it seems to me that any profits
of their sale belongs to the US govt. too, not the Contas.
  Just for the record, here's a summary of what I think is wrong with this
whole mess:
1> You don't sell arms to Iran.
2> You don't swap arms for hostages.
3> Officials should be accountable to the American public for their actions.
  From what North testifyed, William Casey wanted to set up a CIA-like
organization that was not accountable to anyone at all.  Oh boy.
  I do agree that North looks better on TV than the congressmen do.  I also
think that has nothing to do with who is right and who is wrong.
     /
 /  *  /  Alan
*     *

Message: 45052
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: James/more
Date: 07/12/87  Time: 11:46:56

Well, we do agree on the statistics subject anyway - but I did not say I
threw up my hands at them - I just look at statistics with a close eye and
never believe them 100% ---- ANN
P.S. How can we basically agree on most things - yet never seem to be
getting along very well? SO many subjects you talk about I have to/do agree
with. The woman subject is not one of them - A.

Message: 45054
Author: Rob Westover
Category: For sale
Subject: computer programs
Date: 07/12/87  Time: 15:29:28

My name is Rob Westover ( Owner Of Westover Software ) and I have lots of
programs for sale for all kinds of computers . If  you  want any call   me
at 834-7376 .
-------------------------------compurer types------------------------------
Apple , Atari , C-64 , C-128 ,  IBM , Tandy  1000 , TRS-80 color computer ,
ad even some for the old  Vic -20 computer .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------PROGRAMS---------------------------------
MS-DOS , Word Perfect , Super Color Terminal , OS9-Operating System Disk
, lots of games  , and other neat useful programs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 45055
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: In search of
Subject: Life
Date: 07/12/87  Time: 16:04:19

...
  So far, we don't seem to have been really shocked by 
anything among the items of new knowledge.  There is suprise,
even astonishment, but not yet dismay.  Perhaps it is still
too early to expect this, and it may lie just ahead.
  It is not too early to begin looking for trouble.  I can
sense some, for myself anyway, in what is being learned 
about organelles.  I was raisd in the belief that these were
obscure little engines inside my cells, owned and operated
by me or my cellular delegates, private, submicroscopic bits
of my intelligent flesh.  Now, it appears, some of them, and
the most important ones at that, are total strangers.
  The evidence is strong, and direct.  The membranes lining
the inner compartment of mitochondria are like other animal 
cell membranes, and resemble most closely the membranes of
bacteria.  The DNA of mitochondria is qualitatively 
different from the DNA of animal cell nuclei and strikingly
similar to bacterial DNA; it is closely associated with
membranes.  The RNA of mitochondria matches the organelles'
DNA, but not that of the nucleus.  The ribosomes inside the
mitochondria are similar to bacterial ribosomes, and 
different from animal ribosomes.  The mitochondria do not
arise *de novo* in cells; they are always there, replicating
on their own, independently of the replication of the cell.

Message: 45056
Author: $ Apro Poet
Category: In search of
Subject: Life
Date: 07/12/87  Time: 16:13:04

They travel down from egg to newborn; a few come in with the
sperm, but most are maternal passengers.
  The chloroplasts in all plants are, similarly, independent
and self-replicating lodgers, with their own DNA and RNA and
ribosomes.  In structure and pigment content they are the
images of prokaryotic blue-green algae.  It has recently 
been reorted that the nucleic acid of chloroplasts is, in
fact, homologous with that of certain photosynthetic
microorganisms.
  There may be more.  It has been suggested that flagellae
and cilia were once spirochetes that joined up with the 
other prokaryotes when nucleated cells were being pieced
together.  The centrioles and basal bodies are believed in
some quarters to be semiautonomous organisms with their own
separate genomes.  Perhaps there are still others, still
unrecognized.
  I only hope I can retain title to my nuclei.

Message: 45057
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Answer!
Subject: Mark/Coffee House
Date: 07/12/87  Time: 19:30:16

No, but why don't we go there some weekend evening....in fact post it for a
GT.