Apollo BBS Archive - January 1992

Apollo BBS Archive - January 8, 1992

Mail from Pete Fischer
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 02:29:50

[A]bort, [N]ew only, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read
{
I would love to discuss that, as well as anything else which comess to mind.
That's one of the really great things I liked about Mark Twain. He used to
sit up til 4AM drinking whiskey an telling stories.
        Well, it's only 2:30 right now, but I *DO* have a tale to tell.
It seems a certain group of Artists wanted to protest censorship at the MARS
gallery, so they thought they'd poster the front of the gallery in the
middle of the night. Whoa and behold, the long arm of the law was a little
longer than any of the conspirators imagined. There were squad cars coming
out of the woodwork. It was quite a scene. We was fined $50 and had to clean
up the posters. (Actually we just had to clean up the posters. The friendly
building guard showed us where a hose bib was so we could wash the whole
thing off...I mean THEY, so that THEY could wash the whole thing off
(whew, that was close). Anyways, I'm sure you'll hear all about it, by and
by,,..Pete
$tatus Club Bulletin Board command:RC8792-

Message: 8792
Author: $ Felix Cat
Category: Believe it or not!
Subject: Story #1
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 11:21:04

Unbelieveable Story # 1

Arrested on suspicion of shoplifting a pack of cigarettes, a woman told
police she was thinking about a cigarette purchase and holding a pack in her
hand when she suddenly felt an itch caused by her bra.  When she scratched
the itch, she said the pack of cigarettes fell into her blouse "and she
forgot about them."

:-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:

Message: 8793
Author: $ Felix Cat
Category: Believe it or not!
Subject: Story #2
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 11:22:13

Unbelieveable Story # 2

An obviously good-looking guy from Florida went to his hair stylist and
said, "Cut it short on the sides and long and curly on top."  The stylist
got mixed up and did just the opposite.  He supposedly took off nine inches
of hair and thus deprived one handsome guy of his "right to enjoy life."  So
he sued for $10,000 and won.

:-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:

Message: 8794
Author: $ Felix Cat
Category: Believe it or not!
Subject: Story #3
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 11:23:10

Unbelieveable Story # 3

A convicted criminal currently serving a prison term for armed robbery won
$60,000 in a lawsuit.  He contended that police used "excessive force" in
shooting him when he fled the crime scene with shotgun in hand.

:-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:  :-)  (-:

Message: 8795
Author: $ Felix Cat
Category: Believe it or not!
Subject: AIDS
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 11:25:31

Arizona Republic - January 8, 1992

The 11 leading causes of death in 1989 for all Americans, in order:

1 - Heart Disease          - 6.3% from 1988
2 - Cancer                 + 0.2%
3 - Stroke                 - 5.7%
4 - Accidents              - 3.4%
5 - Lung Disease           no change
6 - Pneumonia & Influenza  - 3.5%
7 - Diabetes               + 13.9%
8 - Suicide                - 0.9%
9 - Liver Disease          - 1.1%
10 - Homicide              + 4.4%
11 - AIDS                  + 32%

About 2,150,000 people died in 1989.
About 22,082 (about 1%) died from AIDS.
About 2,127,918 (about 99%) died from causes other than AIDS.

From all the hoopla one hears about AIDS these day, you would think AIDS is
the number one killer accounting for 99% of all deaths.  So Annie had a
valid point when she said it is not right to take research money away from
cancer (the #2 killer) and put it on AIDS.

Message: 8796
Author: $ Green Lantern
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: AIDS/Felix
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 13:00:05

Look at the percentage increase at +32 percent. That's whats scary, not
the absolute numbers. The doubling rate at 32 percent is a little over two 
years, so we can expect in 10 years a 2**5 increase in AIDS deaths from
22,000 to around 700,000 assuming the rate stays the same.

Message: 8797
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Green/last
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 21:35:58

        Re: 'so we can expect in 10 years a 2**5 increase in AIDS deaths'

I don't believe that...  for one, everyone in the US would have to be DRUG
users sharing needles.   Or involved in Anal Sex with more then one regular
partner. (in short..Gay people)   Or, have Sex with many partners with some
of them being bi-sexual.  Happy to say, I do not think ALL Americans fit in
any of these scenarios, and therefore once the AIDS virus wipes out the
Gay, Needle sharring Drug users and promiscuous people amoung us. I would
think the number of AIDS deaths will even DROP.  Sure, there will be a few
innocents caught in this, but that number is sooo small and will shrink even
smaller.

       

Message: 8798
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Felix/death list
Date: 01/09/92  Time: 05:28:15

 It's interesting to note that the first 6 causes of death on your list
could be either eliminated or drastically reduced if smoking were eliminated
in the populace.

Message: 8799
Author: $ Green Lantern
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Sysop/33 percent
Date: 01/09/92  Time: 08:08:42

As I said, 33 percent increase is a warning sign. You better watch your ass.

Message: 8800
Author: $ Green Lantern
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Paul/death list
Date: 01/09/92  Time: 08:09:48

And the other could be reduced drastically if guns were eliminated. If we
can have a drug war, why not a gun war ???

Message: 8801
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Answer!
Subject: misc
Date: 01/09/92  Time: 08:18:22

Paul and Green have already stated my opinion on the current topic.  
Guess I should try getting on more often, eh?

$tatus Club Bulletin Board command:EC

You chose Chit-Chat

Subject:AIDS

Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
 1:Perhaps AIDS will do the same job for humanity that The Plague did,  After 
 2:all there are more people than jobs available.  
 3:end

Edit command:S

Saving message...
The message is 8802

$tatus Club Bulletin Board command:JN

*=* Journey to a SIG *=*

*=* X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board entered *=*

X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:$C

Press [A] to abort

Message: 5297
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: Russ Whitney
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 18:22:30

They're going to install a feeding tube to his stomach as well.
 
Assuming the appropriate doctors give approval (and he doesn't wake up in
the interim)

X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:JN

*=* Journey to a SIG *=*

*=* Public Bulletin Board entered *=*

Public Bulletin Board command:$C

Press [A] to abort

Message: 81356
Author: James Matlock
Category: Question?
Subject: Rod
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 02:44:31

What, for that matter, was the intrinsic value of gold during most of 
history, in the ancient world?  What was the intrinsic value of gold to
a 16th century man?  Zero.  Zip.  It was valuable because people arbitrarily
*agreed* it was valuable.  People lusted after it, and it therefore became 
valuable by convention, just as precious stones did.  
 
About the only pre-modern people for whom gold had any real intrinsic value
were the Inca indians.  That's because they had so much of the stuff that
they could make plates and cups and household items from it.  The Spanish
Conquistadores were astonished by the banality of gold in the Inca society.
Sure, it was pretty and substantial and the Incas liked it.  But they didn't
place the arbitrary value upon it that their conquerors did.  

Message: 81357
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Politics
Subject: Gordon/names
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 05:49:17

All "democracies" aren't democratic. True. Including this one. In fact, we
are not a democracy at all, but a republic. So, what's in a name? It seems
that, no matter what the good intentions of the founders of any political
system were originally, those intentions and ideals are, in time, subjugated
to the greed and hunger for power of those who are placed in authority.
Can we really see any appreciable difference between the Republicans and the
Democrats once they become seated in office? Hardly! Who was it who said
"Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely."?

Message: 81358
Author: $ Green Lantern
Category: Politics
Subject: Dean/Nullification
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 07:57:43

Thank you for entering this very interesting and informative series of posts
on jury nullification. I certainly understand the historical background of
Jury Nullification and how hard-won was the battle the Penn jury in merrie
old England.

Message: 81359
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Arch-True Belief
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 09:01:13

> Yo, Bill!  How's that for not being a True Believer?
 
Well, it does pretty well for trying not to SOUND like a True Believer, but,
although you've admitted you have no conclusive evidence at all, it still
comes to a previously drawn conclusion.  What you've done is make it clear
that you believe what you believe simply because you believe it.  That
sounds like faith, to me, and truly makes you a True Believer.
 
That said, don't get me wrong:  There's nothing wrong with being a True
Believer.  Whether you believe in Jesus, Marx, Beatles, or Jack Daniel's,
it's fine with me.  But that doesn't make your belief rational or logical.

Message: 81360
Author: $ Fred Smith
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Who is They??
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 20:39:49

Arch fulminated>>>
     But I hope we haven't broken down our "morality" -- I call it
integrity -- to the point where we give the individual engaged in criminal
activity (present company excluded!) the same respect as we give honest
people.  I certainly don't, and I will not.  I find it difficult to show
much patience with people, then, who support that criminal activity by
others and act as though that activity is in everyone's best interest,
which it most certainly is not.
 
Fred calmly mentions>>>
    I know what you mean.  I find it difficult to show much patience with
people who choose to interpet the laws in the way that best suits their own
personal agenda regardless of the overwhelming legal opinion and authourity
that shows them to be mostly in error.  But I hope we haven't broken down
our "morality" -- I call it integrity -- to the point where we give the
individual engaged in criminal activity (present company excluded!) the
same respect we give honest people, I certainly don't, and I will not,
simply because those criminals are "against the gvt" and therefore earn the
sympathy Americans tend to give to underdogs who cast themselves as
fighting the good fight against government run amuck.

Message: 81361
Author: $ Fred Smith
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Gordon
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 20:40:31

Re: the citizen's party, the newsletter, etc.
Yes, why hasn't that been tried?  In this day and age, why
do we not have toll free phone numbers for calling the
President and all the members of congress?  Why insn't there
an electronic mail system , or BBS system in every
congressional office to take citizen input?  Why don't we
ever get any feedback from all those "citizen polls" (full
of loaded questions) that our "reps" send up every year near
election time?  Why don't' any of our reps set aside even
half a day a week for ANY citizen to be able to come in for
a one-on-one, nothing off-limits "chat" with their rep to
give them their unvarnished input?  Why do you have to pay
$100 to $1000 a plate just to get near a rep except by
accident?
  Why??  Because THEY DON"T GIVE A RATS BEHIND WHAT WE
THINK!!!! That's why!!  In 10 years the Citizens party would
be no different I'd bet.

Message: 81362
Author: $ Fred Smith
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Paul Savage
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 20:41:19

RE: used cars
  One more of the many things we agree on!!
My dad has had pretty good experiance buying Sun City cars
when buying directly from the Sun Citians, not from a
Dealer.

Message: 81363
Author: $ Fred Smith
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Matlock - Gold etc
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 20:42:12

Matlock astutely points out>>>
 
Honestly, I've just about had it up to here with all of this absolute crap
about gold, is miraculous power to resist inflation, and its eternal value.
 
Gold is no different from any other investment or commodity: you have to buy
at the right time and sell at the right time.  You can't just buy it any
.................  I think it might prove interesting to see how much (if at
all) gold has risen in value in the last six months, and to see if its rise
(if it has risen) even keeps up with inflation, much less provides as good
an investment as an ordinary bank account.
 
I'm also not going to stand for any of this "gold hasn't changed its value,
the dollar has" crap either.  Sure, the dollar has changed in value, but so
has gold, many times.  Perhaps I'll contrast the rise or fall of gold with
the inverse and simultaneous behavior of another precious metal -- like
silver.  The dollar can't go both ways at once, can it?
 
Fred would like to add>>>>
          Continued next.......hahahahahaha

Message: 81364
Author: $ Fred Smith
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Matlock 2/3
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 20:43:11

I read a little bit of Galbraiths "Money" and he starts with
a short history of, oddly enough, gold and bankers.  He
mentions that gold most certainly has had it's ups and
downs.  One of the big shifts was with the discovery of
American and the subsequent plunder and mining (mostly
mining) of Amerian and South AMerican gold and it's shipment
back to Spain and from their the rest of Europe, cause
tremendous inflation in prices.  This was due to, you
guessed it, the old law of supply and demand.  As the Gold
flowed in it became worth less and less.  In England around
this time inflation ON the gold standard was runing 350%
over a period of about a decade or so.  Similar events took
place elsewhere.
  As to bankers, oddly enough, they were the salvation of
the monetary system in those days.  There was, of course,
the wonderfull use of gold coins with all the attendent
problems, shaving, alloying, counterfiting, weighing,
counting, etc.  Things were reaching a point where trust in
money was becoming a problem.  Those early bankers did just
what some people want to have the gvt do, take in "money"
and reissue it in more standardized form....continued...

Message: 81365
Author: $ Fred Smith
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: matlock 3/3
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 20:44:04

They melted down the questionable coins and reissued new
standard ones.  That still left the problem of all the
wieghing and counting.  People then realized that the bank
could easily provide an additional service of simply holding
the new coins and doing their monetary transactions thru
paper entries on the banks books.  Everyone was happy.  The
banks also issued bank notes for those who wanted a way to
have their "money" in a more convient form then the gold.
The bank soon learned that many of those Notes might not
ever return to the bank and therefore would never be used to
claim the coin that was backing them.  Such a Deal for the
bank.  And of course, the banks also figured out how to make
loans using the same coin for backing both the loans AND the
notes!!  In other words, human nature did it's thing!!
 The moral?  There's good and bad to everything including
gold and bankers.
 

Message: 81366
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Politics
Subject: Fred..
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 21:17:28

        Getting touchy Freddy...

Gold is not 'PERFECT'...but far better then 'paper'
You keep talking about buying and selling of gold...  I am talking about
being paid in gold/silver, and scrapping the FRN system.

Gold and silver can also be used as a median of exchange.  Gold and silver
can also be put in a bank.  Gold and silver can also be invested in property
or anything else...  but where it differs from FRNs.. it in itself has REAL
value....  And is not as subject to inflation as the paper stuff is.  Also,
if the government as we know it should fall, gold and silver would still
have its value.  The paper you LOVE would have NONE...  NONE   NONE!!!!
You would then have to trade in trinkets, rings, china plates, pewter
star-ships from the Franklin Mint or anything else you might have as your
FRNS would do you NO good.  This however would be somewhat difficult to do
and be awkward to say the least.  However, gold/silver/copper or even pewter
coins would be easier to denominate into some sort of value system.

        The present system is *NOT* working to my satisfaction!  My labor is
of value to me...

        *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 81367
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: News Today
Subject: Arizona
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 21:49:57

        'By time I get to Arizona.....'     Anyone see this video of
violance?   Another out-side group trying to tell us Arizonans what to do.

We VOTED it down once, and we are going to get to vote on it again... And
yet this group seems to think our elected officials should declare a PAID
holliday anyway...over the TAX paying voters heads.

        For those of you who are new to the system.. I do not happen to
think MLK deserves a paid holiday.  I did not like this womanizer when he
was alive, and I still do not like him now. Yea, he did some good I am
sure...  but not good enough for a PAID holiday.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=*  <-clif- 

Message: 81368
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Politics
Subject: Value (1/8)
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 22:07:52

 GL>>There is nothing wrong with this as long as wages keep pace with
 GL>>inflation.

(Hey Green, I wish you hadn't chosen the same initials that I have.  It's
confusing!)  Anyway, I can't agree that there's nothing wrong with
inflation.  Let's try to look at what inflation does from a different angle.

The medium of exchange, "money", represents an abstract thing I'll call
"value".  What exactly is "value"?  The argument here is really about that.
Commodities have value, but their values change constantly in relation to
each other -- copper, pork bellies, oil, real estate, TV sets, little rubber
washers for the kitchen taps.  Labor and other services can be lumped in
with commodities in that they have value.  The meaning of "value" is
arguable because it's a relative concept.  It can only be defined with
respect to a stated equivalent in terms of commodities.  But which ones?

It just isn't possible to make a rigorous definition of "value" in any
absolute sense.  If you pick any one commodity, its value could either soar
or take a nosedive relative to other commodities tomorrow.  The choice of
gold is as arbitrary as any other, except that gold has been a good choice
for *pragmatic* purposes up until now, because for one reason and another
its value has historically been fairly stable relative to other commodities
as a whole.  Nevertheless, if we found a cheap way of making gold tomorrow
through nuclear processes, its value too could plummet.

Message: 81369
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Politics
Subject: Value (2/8)
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 22:09:05

How then should we define a unit of "value"?  If it has no absolute meaning,
I'd say the best way to do it for the purpose of this discussion is to take
a shopping basket of all the commodities that people need, or own, or use
(both directly and indirectly), in sensible proportions, and average out
their price.  A gallon of gas, a pack of cigarettes, some gold leaf and
copper wire, a beefsteak and some vegetables, an audio cassette, a square
foot of land and part of a shingle roof, and a couple of those little rubber
washers for the kitchen taps.  And a few hundred other things, including the
cost of a week's fire insurance on three chairs, two minutes at the
dentist's, and half an hour's unskilled labor.  You get the general idea.

This isn't a constant standard of what "value" means, but it's a close
enough approximation.  If we're all fueling cars on hydrogen generated from
solar energy tomorrow, the price of a gallon of gas may go up because oil is
scarce, or down because we don't need oil much any more.  We could correct
this from the consumer's perspective by substituting a tank of hydrogen --
just as we could substitute today's "compact disc" for yesterday's "record".

Some things may not be correctable.  Half a century ago there were no
computers to speak of.  Today we see them as a necessity, for business if
not for personal use, and tomorrow they will probably be more so.  So
tomorrow's shopping basket will have a computer in it, even if yesterday's
didn't.  On the other hand, if we keep on breeding so irresponsibly, the
cost of the same real estate in tomorrow's basket may be out of sight.

Message: 81370
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Politics
Subject: Value (3/8)
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 22:10:25

These changes will cause the meaning of "value" to drift somewhat over time.
But if the cost or the need for one thing changes drastically relative to
the others: well, it's only one thing in the basket, and the cost of the
basket as a whole should remain relatively stable -- barring war, famine,
plague, pestilence, and the manipulations of oil sheiks, all of which reduce
our access to things of value.  Things *are* worth more when the supply
dries up.  Otherwise, there isn't much we don't need today that we'll be
desperately in need of tomorrow (unless it's AIDS vaccine).

This slight drift in the meaning of "value" over many years doesn't matter,
because the purpose of defining "value" is to help people get fair exchange
for things they trade during their lifetime.  If someone acquires a quantity
of "value" when he's young, and stores it in some form for the future, he
wants to see that store have about the same "value" when he later trades it
for something else he needs.  If it's gone up in value, that's great.  If
it's drifted down somewhat, that isn't disastrous.  If he passes it to his
descendants and it's only worth a tenth as much in his great-great-great-
grandson's time, the original owner doesn't give a damn because he's dead.
But he does give a damn if it drops 90% in his own lifetime.

How do we decide the mix of goods in the basket?  If we looked at what the
average American owned and compared it with what the average African owned,
the American's basket would be a great deal bigger and heavier.  But this
doesn't matter for the purpose of our definition.

Message: 81371
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Politics
Subject: Value (4/8)
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 22:11:43

It only reflects the truth that the average American does own more "value".
Does it matter that the *mix* would be different?  The bare necessities --
food, clothing, shelter and so on -- versus the luxuries such as TV sets,
jewelry, art, ski boats and cameras.  What should we say about a car?  To
the African it might be an unimaginable luxury worth many dwellings.  To the
American it is not only worth much less than a dwelling (though his house
may be worth hundreds of African huts), but it may also be a necessity, not
a luxury, for him to earn a living.  His larger house with plumbing and
sanitation is also a "luxury" compared with the African dwelling.  But to
him, it too is a necessity.  If he were to build a mud hut and live in it,
the local authorities might condemn it as "unfit for human habitation" (in
their opinion) and eject him.

So it's best to avoid useless guessing about what constitutes a "necessity"
versus a "luxury".  Everything has value in so far as a certain amount of it
can be traded for a certain amount of something else.  The best way to
define the mix of goods in the basket is just to look at how much of every
commodity people actually own, or use in a given period of time.  It's
possible to do this on a local, regional, or national basis, and thus arrive
at a definition of the unit of "value" for that area; but it's most
meaningful to do it on a worldwide basis.  The mix of commodities that
people own or use in smaller areas will vary from this worldwide average,
and so will their definitions of "necessity" and "luxury"; but we can
acknowledge the latter point by saying their local "cost of living" differs.

Message: 81372
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Politics
Subject: Value (5/8)
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 22:13:00

I think this is the closest we can ever get to the true meaning of "value".
What a particular commodity is worth to an individual must vary enormously.
It depends on what he's used to having, what he's learned to cope with and
cope without, what his personal needs and tastes and responsibilities are,
where he lives and how he makes his living.  Surely the only reasonable way
to measure "value" is to take a worldwide average basket of goods.

Instead of measuring a vast assortment of different commodities, why not
find out what *people* are worth?  Why not set the unit of value as the
worldwide average cost of an hour of labor?  Simply because when standards
of living rise, we call ourselves "wealthier".  We earn *more* value for an
hour of our labor.  If we all earn more, then in some way we have created
more "value" for ourselves; and it's what we get out of it that we want to
measure, not what we have to put in.  If the monetary unit is as close as
possible to an absolute standard of value, then when our living standard
rises we expect to see that we "earn more money" per hour of labor.

Money, the medium of exchange, can be seen as a commodity like everything
else, because it has value.  It can be traded.  Inflation means then that
this particular commodity, money, loses value over time.  We can argue all
we like about how much gold money will buy this week, last week, next year,
or back in 1933.  Gold is just another commodity, though a relatively stable
one.  But when we see that almost *all* the goods in the basket now cost a
great deal more money, we know that inflation has occurred.

Message: 81373
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Politics
Subject: Value (6/8)
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 22:14:21

If a government supplies its citizens with money in return for "value"
given, inflation enables the government to impose a continuing tax on its
citizens for doing so.  If inflation is 5% per annum, then the tax on the
citizen is nearly 5% of the "value" given for the money in the first year.
In the second year it's nearly 5% of what's left, and so on, until the
original "value" given approaches the point where it belongs entirely to the
government.  Where else can you get a deal like this?

Inflationary money is like a hot potato.  You don't want to keep it under
your bed.  You want to dump it on someone else as early as possible and
exchange it for commodities that do keep their value.  Superficially, that
should mean that people are best off with *negative* amounts of money: to
borrow money that decreases in value over time, in order to buy other
commodities of lasting value.  But the demand for borrowing money drives up
the price (interest rates), so the benefits probably cancel out.

Two effects of inflation are undoubtedly negative.  The first is that when
inflation rates vary from year to year, anybody lending money can never be
quite sure how much return they're going to get back from it in terms of
real value.  Any economy works better when it's stable and predictable, when
people and businesses can foresee the future, plan ahead, and avoid losses
through wrong decisions.  In an unstable money market, anybody lending money
must feel the necessity to bump interest rates a little just as an insurance
premium.  Variable inflation must therefore provoke *more* inflation.

Message: 81374
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Politics
Subject: Value (7/8)
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 22:15:38

Secondly, a great many loans are paid back over time in equal installments
of money.  If money loses value over time, this means the borrower will pay
back "value" at a faster rate initially, then more and more slowly as the
loan matures.  At first sight this looks like a good deal for the borrower,
because it gets "cheaper" to pay the loan off as time goes on.  But the
lender still insists on getting fair "value" back in return for the loan.
To make up for the decreasing rate of value payback at a later date, the
interest rate must be raised overall.  In terms of real "value" therefore,
loan payments are no longer spread out evenly over the years, but must be
heavily loaded up front.  Effectively, the convenience of being able to
borrow "value" and spread out the payments equally over many years has been
curtailed.  Inflation must make it more difficult for people to borrow value
when they need it -- whether to buy a house or to start a business.

In the U.S., if you buy a house, you have the option of taking an adjustable
rate mortgage.  At least this is better than in the UK, where you can't get
anything else.  Mortgage interest rates there fluctuate up and down wildly
as the British government tinkers with the prime rate (it's called simply
the "Bank Rate" there).  Since mortgage payments are a large chunk of
anyone's income, this system permits a great deal of ham-handed government
control over people's month-to-month cost of living.

Message: 81375
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Politics
Subject: Value (8/8)
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 22:16:53

The worst effect of inflation is the way it enables governments to impose
extra taxes with no legislative action to authorize those taxes.  Whenever
the idea of a "wealth tax" was kicked around by socialist parties in Europe,
the idea was usually unpopular: far too left-wing.  Many people feel that
taxes on incomes are acceptable, but the notion of taking away property that
people already own, year by year, is too obviously like stealing.  Yet those
European countries, and the U.S. too, have already *had* a wealth tax for
years.  Interest earned on money in the bank is taxed as "income", when most
of it (all of it, quite often) is needed just to maintain the original value
of the investment.  Property sold is subject to "capital gains" tax, even
though the so-called capital "gain", which is measured in "money", may not
be a real gain in "value" at all.  Then there was the notorious "bracket
creep" in income tax, which guaranteed an automatic raise in the tax *rate*
for most people as inflation pushed wages up.

The fact that these taxes are imposed at all is bad enough.  The fact that
they are imposed without explicit legislation to authorize them is far
worse.  The fact that they are imposed dishonestly, without labeling them
for what they are in full sight of the public, may be worst of all.  So I
can't buy the idea that rising wages compensate for inflation.  Irrespective
of whether or not there's a conspiracy by banksters, pranksters, ganksters
or anybody else, inflation has economic effects that are extremely dubious
at best, even in theory.  And in practice it has always turned out to be a
big con.

Message: 81376
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Politics
Subject: Fred/Citizens
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 22:24:54

There is a difference, in that politicians are under no obligation
whatsoever to actually listen to what is said to them over the phone or in
opinion polls.  None of it is legally binding on them.  I would propose a
party constitution that's as watertight as possible in requiring the elected
representatives to respond to the expressed and recorded wishes of the
members.  I don't say I'm not skeptical about the possibility of corruption,
but I do say that I don't know of any party that was ever bound to rules in
this way.  Perhaps that's because nobody wants to go to the effort of
starting and organizing a party if they're not going to be rewarded with a
disproportionate amount of power over what that party does.  If so, people
only have themselves to blame for not getting together and getting such an
organization off the ground -- instead of taking the defeatist attitude that
no new party is worth the effort for itself alone, because it will end up
like all of the others.

Perhaps people are just too lazy, or too frightened, to take the
responsibility of governing themselves.

Message: 81377
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: On the Lighter Side
Subject: Jesus weeped?
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 22:27:14

Today's *Republic* carries front-page photos of a rally by "demonstrators
loyal to ousted Georgia President Zviad Gamsakhurdia".  The caption goes on
to say: "A crowd of about 4,000, including women who weeped for Gamsakhurdia
(right) held up pictures of the president and waved Georgian flags Tuesday."
I presume the copy editors sleeped while this article was being written.

The *Republic* is not the nation's best newspaper, but if it can't compete
with the very best, at least it has keeped on trying to emulate the most
famous of them.  It was Edwin Newman, in *Strictly Speaking*, who pointed
out this tendency in the *New York Times* as far back as 1974.  "All the
news that's fit to print!" trumpeted the *Times*; to which Newman retorted
that "it is not the news in the *Times* that I mean to have at.  It is the
English.  The English is not always fit to print.  Far from it."  Among many
other faults, he noted that "past particles trouble the *Times*":

    Mr. Ives portrays the richest man in the world, a widower, who seeked
    social status for himself and his children.'

    J. W. Fulbright, chairman of the committee, plainly indicated he thought
    Mr. MacNamara had treaded close to deception.

 ...an individual who has bestrode American life for a quarter of a century.

Keep it up, Republic!  You're following a great tradition.  

Message: 81378
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: News Today
Subject: Religion, 80s style
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 22:28:51

On another page, today's *Republic* reported that the trial opened in Fort
Lauderdale of "a black-supremacist sect leader who preached hatred and
ordered a beheading and other mutilation-killings to keep his followers in
line".  Alleged crimes included the firebombing of a neighborhood whose
residents had refused to donate to the sect, and fourteen murders occurring
between 1981 and 1987, including five in which the victims' ears were sliced
off as trophies.  The 56-year-old leader of the sect, Hulon Mitchell Jr.,
who built up an $8 million real estate empire, went under the name of Yahweh
ben Yahweh -- "God, son of God".  It's funny to think that the Hebrews
considered the name "YHWH" too sacred even to say out loud.  I'm surprised
this man wasn't struck dead by lightning for that blasphemy alone.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Richard Scruggs described the crimes as "a parade of
horribles".  Sixteen defense attorneys petitioned for a mistrial, calling
the prosecutor's language "inflammatory" and claiming that "the entire
indictment is an attack on their religion and should be dismissed."

Can these deeds be covered under First Amendment rights?  "Most decidedly
denied," said U.S. District Judge Norman C. Roettger, who must be better
than most at recognizing the intended limits of the U.S. Constitution.

Allegations included one of a public execution inside the sect's
headquarters.  The building is known as the Temple of Love.

Message: 81380
Author: James Matlock
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: various
Date: 01/08/92  Time: 23:07:35

Fred Smith:  You said a mouthful in 81360.  So many people are willing to
accept the most incredible nonsense simply because they have sympathy for
the sentiment behind it, whether that sentiment is good or bad.  Just
tonight I spoke with a user of this board (who shall remain nameless) who
would buy the Brooklyn Bridge if the seller was sufficiently iconoclastic.
 
Subject #2:  I saw a long promo for a new TV show produced by George Lucas
called "Adventures of the Young Indiana Jones."  It looked kind of
entertaining, at least from the ad.  Did I hear something say something
about hypocrisy?  Why, anything *I* choose to watch CAN'T be pablum.   :)
Maybe young Indy will visit a western boom town and enjoy the experience
of paying an ounce of gold for a shot of Red Eye.
 
 
Well folks, it's time for another vacation.  See you in a couple of weeks. 
Have fun, and don't burn any straw men.

Message: 81381
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: News Today
Subject: Arizona
Date: 01/09/92  Time: 05:18:06

 I left a comment on channel 10 last evening after seeing the thing in it's
entirety, but they didn't air it, which didn't surprise me much.
 In the first place, I think that there is a rather small cross section of
humanity that even understands rap "music", and I doubt that that cross
section carries too much weight, since they neither vote nor come out of
their fog long enough to reach out for reality. For those few words that can
be understood, I think that they doi a disservice to the cause of a MLK
holiday, and are therefore counterproductive.
 In the long run, CLiff, they probably do more good for your point of view
than for whatever view they try to espouse.

Message: 81382
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Politics
Subject: Gordon
Date: 01/09/92  Time: 05:22:18

 In hyour statement that people are either too lazy or too frightened to
take the responsibility of self government, you left out one possiblr
factor, apathy. Perhaps this joke we call a government of, by and for the
people has been going on so long that too many of the people have taken the
"you can't fight vity hall" attitude, and the actions of our elected
officials have done little or nothing to dispel that attitude.

Message: 81383
Author: James Matlock
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Oh...
Date: 01/09/92  Time: 06:03:08

Before I go, I thought I would point out that the reproduction is
essentially faithful except that I refered to "fugitive slave laws" (plural,
since there was more than one) and that the words "'informed'" and
"'positive'" were originally framed by asterisks, not quotation marks (the
latter appears somewhat peculiar and inexplicable, particularly in the
context of the first instance).  I do not believe that I capitalized the
word "'Judge'" in the first paragraph, since I was under the impression that
one does not capitalize that title unless it is associated with the Supreme
Court (and of course if it is the first word of sentence!); but I may be
incorrect in this assumption and if so am happy to see the mistake
corrected.

Message: 81384
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Politics
Subject: Matlock/Republic
Date: 01/09/92  Time: 07:51:50

I haven't read your messages for some time because of your overweaning
arrogance and condescending attitude, but I believe in credit where credit
is due:  Your letter to the editor of the Arizona Repugnant in response to
Steven Sheldon's view of jury nullification, in this morning's edition, was
excellently crafted and well presented.  You are to be congratulated.

There was a very slight conflict of presentation which does not detract, I
believe, from the substance or validity of your remarks, but nonetheless
gives the enemies of jury nullification the opportunity for a cheap shot: 
You said: "First, I do not see how nullification lends itself to 'positive'
awards."  Then, in the next sentence, you said: "Second, such a potential
already exists and always has."  The reader trips over the apparent conflict
between these two statements and thus misses some of the import of the third
point following, which resolves the question of positive awards in civil
cases.  But this is a minor glitch.  All in all, a very good letter, and the
lead letter on the page -- nicely done!

The same day you said something about the Republic postcard arriving via
Globe, the Republic called me to clear the letter I sent them.  Perhaps it
will be published in a day or so.

Message: 81385
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Politics
Subject: Historical first!
Date: 01/09/92  Time: 07:53:07

This may be a first in history!  The Illegal Revenue Service is reduced to
saying "please"!  Dare we think that there may be hope for them yet?

After several attempts to levy on our wages and other property without
success (because we stopped them cold each time), the latest batch of "Final
Notice(s):  Notice of Intention to Levy)" arrived with the threat "To
prevent such (enforcement) action (send us the money)" obliterated with
black marking pen and the word "Please" handwritten above it.  The threat of
additional penalties for non-compliance is also obliterated, and the 10-day
time limit for required response is scratched out and "30" written in.

Nah.  On second thought, there's no hope for them.

Message: 81386
Author: $ Green Lantern
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Gold/Silver value
Date: 01/09/92  Time: 07:58:57

Gold has gone down in price over the last 10 years to around $350 an ounce.
Don't even talk to me about silver. It has hit rock bottom. FRNs have
increased in value relative to gold and silver. Anyone holding gold and
silver lost over the last 10 years.

Message: 81387
Author: $ Green Lantern
Category: News Today
Subject: Stupid Video
Date: 01/09/92  Time: 08:00:07

I think Mecham must have hired these guys to put out this video so we could
see his idiot face on the tube again proving that he is still an a$$.

Message: 81388
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: $tatus users only
Subject: Metrobopophobia
Date: 01/09/92  Time: 08:24:26

I will be reading some of my own work at Peter's Place, 128 E. Taylor, this
Friday evening.  It's listed at 8:30, but probably won't get under way until
9ish.  If you have any favorites, come down and make a request!