Apollo BBS Archive - Feburary 1990

Apollo BBS Archive - Feburary 15, 1990

Mail from Zak Woodruff
Date: 02/15/90  Time: 01:49:27

So a toothless Christ with a greasy mouth performed fellatio on you?
 
Zak is my real name.  Short for Zachary.
 
Is Larry Michaels your real name?
[A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
 1:Jesus also has a beard and it acts much like pussy hair.  God is clean 
 2:shaven (Gotta be respectable) and the stubble hurts.
 3:
 4:My real name is Bob McDobbs but you can call me J.R. for short.  Bye Zak and
 5:keep up the fucking good posts.
 6:end

Message: 63340
Author: Larry Michaels
Category: Answer!
Subject: Zak
Date: 02/15/90  Time: 01:12:20

I will TRY to answer your TOUGH question concerning the deterring of
harmful acts on others.

I guess we should separate those who choose violence as a way of life from
those who do not.

But I am afraid that our prison system only makes matters worse.  At
present it is filled to capacity with a large majority of people who are
there for what is called a victimless crime.  The true criminals, after
plea bargaining, are back out in society after a few years.

Prison does not rehabilitate the criminal, unfortunately.  An inmate will
use his time behind bars to plan their next crime.  They also learn a bit
about homosexual activity while locked up.  If not that then they become
proficient with masturbation.

In any case, prison does not take a hardened criminal and turn them into a
contributing member of society, in most cases, that is.

So, our methods, at this time, are ineffective and the violent person is
again loosed on society to act out their aggressions.

We simply do not have the correct knowledge to help a violence prone person
into leading a good life.  I believe that our current system just makes
matters worse.  We lock them up, give them a damn dreary and meaningless
life for a few years (One day behind bars seems like one week on the
outside.)  The prisoners freedoms are taken away, they are treated like
dirt and made to lick-boot, if at all possible.

When they come out, for the most part, they are worse than when they went
in.  There are a number of violent people being locked away every day and
there are also a number of them being released every day.  But the ones who
are coming out are harder than the ones going in.

So, you ask me, how do we punish real criminals?  Well, for the time being
I would think that making each institution a self-contained farm and
community would be a start.  Farms in Washington State could trade goods
with farms in Arizona and so forth so that the burden of cost would not be
on the middle-class taxpayer.  Visits with ones family would be nice and
plenty of parties with the prisioners of the opposite sex would make the
inmates think that this may be a fair world after all.

People with pent up hostilities are more prone to violence.  Let's show
them that they can have a good time all the while being kept, for the time
being, apart from mainstream America.

There could be prison universities, ran by prisoners.  You know, many of
them are highly intelligent individuals.

Message: 63342
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: suicide
Date: 02/15/90  Time: 02:08:40

     Mike Carter:  "If we allow abortions to be legalized, then we can argue
using the same arguments to allow suicide to be legalized."
 
     What arguments are you referring to?
 
     I don't see any tie between the arguments for suicide and abortion.  A
person who commits suicide is in essence *destroying something that belongs
to him*.  Why is this wrong?  If somebody buys a television, and then takes
it into his or her house and smashes it with an axe, there is nothing
legally wrong with it.  (We're talking legality here, not health.)  Your
life is something YOU OWN.  Nobody else owns or has any rights over your
body.  Nobody can say "Your life, to x degree, belongs to me."  This isn't a
natural right, mind you, but it's a societal right that we're supposed to
have.  (As far as natural rights go, somebody could conceivably say that, in
which case you would be a slave.)
 
     Your argument that legalized suicide and euthanasia would lead to the
legalized killing of the elderly is absurd.  Euthanasia, like everything
else, can have limits.  Somebody who's in a coma for 3 years with little
hope of recovery is one thing; somebody who has a bum leg and is retired is
another.
 
     Finally, I agree with Dean that only *attempted* suicide can be
illegal.  Obviously.  If attempts are attention-seeking, how do we react?

Message: 63343
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Larry Michaels
Date: 02/15/90  Time: 02:19:57

    ...So we should not put criminals in prison, but rather put them on
a communal farm?  A sort of all-year-round summer camp for the emotionally
disturbed?  
     What do we teach these individuals?  That life is fun?  Do we hire
philosophers and educators to come in and tell the prisoners, "Hey.  Killing
isn't cool.  If we all love and help each other, things will work out.  If
you feel angry, go give somebody a hug."
     Face it:  these values can't be taught.  For most people, once you're
brought up with a value-system (especially an extreme one), it takes a lot
of experience and self-evaluation to change that value system.  We can't put
people who thrive on hurting others into little communities that are all
neato and cooperative, and then send them out into the harsh real world and
expect them to say "Hey, I no longer want to kill people!  I want to love
them!  My brothers and sisters on the farm taught me that it's *fun* to be
nice and to work hard for a living, instead of getting it quick and easy by
stealing!"
     
     My point is, this is not a valid plan.  The problems you suggested with
our prison are important, and should be changed.  (We shouldn't let the
committers of more heinous crimes off the hook; we shouldn't put people in
jail just for taking chemicals into their bodies.)  The prison environment
sucks, but that is the nature of it:  it's all the worst products of society
put into one big shack.  It sucks, but it's better than letting them go
free.

     Another reason, besides deterrence, for punishing criminals?  BECAUSE
THEY DESERVE IT.  If somebody tromps on another's rights, he forfeits his
own.  That's the contract you implicitly sign by being a member of society.

     By the way, you wrote both your messages with the idea that the reason
for prisons is to re-habilitate the prisoner.  This is an incorrect
assumption.  The reasons for prison sentences, in order of importance, are
(1) punishment for the sake of punishment, (2) to protect society, and (3)
to re-habilitate.  
     Prison re-habilitation plans have shown little success.  This is
probably more complex than this, but it may be that prisoners resent
simultaneously being punished and being forced to "receive help."  What
re-habilitation is attempted must be designed with a clear focus and an
emphasis on self-responsibility.  Many people just can't be rehabilitated,
though.
 
     

Message: 63348
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Prison systems
Date: 02/15/90  Time: 05:58:39

 THe discussion between Larry and Zak has been very interesting, with both
making some very valid points.
 I have a thought on the subject that I would like to toss into the ring,
just for the heck of it. This is very generalized and quite oversimplified,
but I think if it were polished and refined a bit, it would serve society
well, and certainly would alleviate the prison overcrowding problem we now
have. Here 'tis.
 People convicted of violent crimes against people. This would include, but
is not limited to, murder, rape, child abuse (repeated), drug sales or
distribution, etc. - Capitol punishment. Execution upon conviction, not an
appellate system that drags on for years.
 White collar criminals, or for crimes against property. Highly supervised
probation, with a scheduled program of total restitution, plus interest, of
all property stolen and/or damaged. This would include burglars, embezzlers,
armed robbers who do not maim or kill people, etc.
 As I said, it is very simplified, but is more of a seed thought than
anything else. It would seem that such a system would be more fair toward
the victim, as well as toward society as a whole, plus, in the case of the
non violent criminal, far more rehabilitative than languishing behind prison
walls, unproductive, for years. In the case of hardened violent criminals,
it would also resolve the problem of recidivism.
Watcha think?

Message: 63349
Author: $ Gary Jones
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: ghee
Date: 02/15/90  Time: 07:15:28

Ghee Whizzzzz, Melissa,
    My Yak won't give any milk, said it wasn't in his job description.

                                                   ****  Gary   ****

Message: 63350
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Answer!
Subject: Last
Date: 02/15/90  Time: 07:51:57

No no no.
That's Cheeze Whiz.
 

Message: 63351
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Illegal suicide??
Date: 02/15/90  Time: 08:36:55

I never could understand why suicide was made into a law. If a person does
it, you can't punish them can you? If he doesn't succeed, what are they
going to do to him? Throw him in jail? Spend the tax payers money to make
him stand trial for the miss? Make him go to a doctor? What does the law do
in a attempted suicide case anyway? It seems to me on one could control such
a thing. \\* ANN *//

Message: 63352
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rod on Prisons
Date: 02/15/90  Time: 09:05:52

        If you made Prison universities, Prison parties, Prision Farms....
People would commit crimes just too get in.

        Personaly, I think they need to be run tougher, more like the
experimental one where they treat the prisioners like they were in a Marines
boot camp.  You have to teach discipline, not the Cha-Cha!  I also think the
death penalty should be used more, and when convicted, carry it out within a
reasonable time.  It seems to take years for one to move down death row.

        By the way, that prison experiment seems to have a very high
success rate so far.