Apollo BBS Archive - Feburary 1990

Apollo BBS Archive - Feburary 14, 1990

Mail from Zak Woodruff
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 16:01:07

[A]bort, [N]ew only, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read

      Your joke isn't that funny.  People with teeth can give just as good
blowjobs as anybody.  As long as they are careful.  
[A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
 1:Yeah, but I forgot to mention, He greases up his mouth.  Is Zak your real 
 2:name?
 3:
 4:

Mail from Mike Middleton
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 23:15:36

[A]bort, [N]ew only, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read

Thanks, Larry. I was hoping to meet some new friends here! I'll keep on
trying to make sense and see what happens...
 
Mike
[A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply

Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
 1:The first message that you posted impressed me.  So has your others.  There 
 2:are a lot of fundamentialists on this board.  Their minds are welded shut by
 3:earlier teachings.  
 4:
 5:There are Get Togethers on occasion.  There are a lot of good people.  In 
 6:fact my life revolves around all the BBS people.  See you.
 7:end

Press  to abort

Message: 63311
Author: Larry Michaels
Category: Answer!
Subject: ANN
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 01:02:19

Here is a quote from a column by the writer, William S. Burroughs:

"Urine tests!  Our pioneer ancestors would p___ in their graves at the
thought of urine tests to decide whether a man is competent to do his job. 
The measure of competence is performance.  When told that General Grant was
a heavy drinker, Lincoln said: 'Find out what brand of whiskey he drinks,
and distribute it to my other generals.'

"Doctor William Halsted has been called the 'Father of American Surgery.' A
brilliant and innovative practitioner, he introduced antiseptic procedures
at a time when, far from donning rubber gloves, surgeons did not even wash
their hands, and the death rate from post-operative infection ran as high
as 80 percent.  Doctor Halsted was a life long morphine addict.  But he
could still hack it and hack it good, and he lost no patients because of
his personal habit.  In those 'good old days,' a man's personal habits were
personal and private.  Now even a citizen's blood and urine are subject to
arbitrary seizure and search."

"The world's greatest detective could not have survived a urine test. 
'Which is it this time, Holmes, cocaine or morphine?'

Both, Watson --- a speed ball."

Message: 63312
Author: Kevin Roy
Category: Bulletins
Subject: New!
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 01:20:39

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Message: 63313
Author: Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: Larry Michaels
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 01:41:53

I would agree that environment plays a role (i.e. influences us), and that
children (like adults) can be damaged by their interactions with others.
I have never implied that drugs turn people into monsters through some Jekyl
and Hyde process.  In fact, I hold people responsible for their actions
under the influence of drugs.  Perhaps you made an error in directing this
particular rebuttal to me, since I have never made such assertions.
 
None of this shows why environment should be blamed for the evil acts of an
individual.  The point I made before, which still stands, is that many
people suffer trauma in their youth; many to a far greater degree than
Hitler or Manson may have; yet very few become heineous criminals.  This
should indicate to you that something other than environment is at work: I
suggest that the overlooked factor is free will, pure and simple.  If the
experiences of your youth are traumatic, you have a number of options.  It
is not very logical to assume that one would act out on society the very
behaviors which caused you to suffer such trauma: one would think that a
greater, not a lesser, sensitivity to the feelings of others could be
instilled by experiences (good or bad).
Furthermore, many of the sadistic, psychopathic individuals of the type we
are discussing had relatively ordinary lives, and even those abused suffer
rather less than many of their victims.

Message: 63315
Author: Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: James H.
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 02:10:07

Heh heh...not very appetizing, I agree.  I would also probably agree with
Paul that many processed foods are less than choice in their undisguised
state.  Of course, we have to reconcile ourselves to the fact that we live
in a world which, by the somewhat artificial aesthetic and hygenic standards
we have adopted, fails miserably.  For example, I still eat chocolate even
though I know that the cocoa pod is a favorite nest for cockroaches, who
besides defacating in and among them, also lay their eggs there.
I read this once in the food section of the Republic, so I cannot vouch for
its validity, nor do I remember details other than the rather nauseating
affinity I just described.
This book (The Secret House) is really quite fascinating.  Though it might,
from my excerpt, seem like a consumer oriented publication with a heavy
emphasis on scare stories about processed foods, it in fact deals with a day
in the life of an ordinary house, the invisible things which go on in and
around it, and the nature of certain common items within it.  Along the way
there are ample doses of enlightening consumer information.  The New York
Times called it "nothing short of astounding", and without any hyperbole, I
quite agree.

Message: 63316
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Daryl on suicide
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 03:34:20

     Feelings of emptiness, loneliness, guilt, confusion...deep emotional
and mental scars MIGHT be caused to others by suicide.  But what about
suicides of people who have no friends?  We should make those suicides
legal, right?
 
     Divorce causes feelings of emptiness, lonliness, guilt, confusion,
emotional scars.  So do breakups of people's first intense romances.  So
does it hurt when a good friend moves away, or becomes an enemy.  These are
just examples that show that the criteria you made up for "why suicide
should be illegal" is arbitrary and illogical.
     Laws aren't designed to keep people from feeling lonely or empty.
 
     What about euthanasia?

Message: 63317
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: Drug Talk
Subject: Cliff, are you high?
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 03:38:00

     "If intelligent people will use drugs, we don't stand a chance to have
a sober civilization."
 
     That doesn't follow.  If *some* intelligent people use (that could mean
try once, use occasionally, or use regularly leading to addiction) drugs, 
that doesn't mean civilization will cease to function.  If your argument 
had any logic to it, our society would already be the mess you envision.  
The point is that some people can use drugs and continue to function, and
some people can't.  
     This whole "intelligent people" thing is bogus.  Most people have the
capacity to make intelligent decisions, with the aid of good objective
information.  Propaganda and drug laws are not the answer.  People will just
ignore or rebel against such demeaning tactics.  Consider reconsidering.

     "The only reason I thought that drugs should be made legal has been 
defeated then."
 
     What *only* reason is that, Cliff?  As I recall you had several
reasons. 
 
     "I am against drugs since intelligent people are stupid."
 
      Boy, that makes sense.  You're obviously missing the point.  Stop
acting dumb.

Message: 63318
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Roger/earth age
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 05:13:25

Who are you (or I) to restrict God to a 24 hour day? I have read Genesis
carefully, and I can see plenty of room for what we could consider gaps. I
also read that one day is as a thosand years to the Lord, and a thousand
years as one day. He does not suffer the same restrictions of time as we do.
 Now who's becoming the literalist?
 I have no problem with the various scientific methods of dating material.
Neither do I have a problem with "Let there be, and there was".

Message: 63319
Author: Melissa Dee
Category: Sex & Love
Subject: Today
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 07:36:42

HAPPY VALENTINE'S DAY, EVERYBODY!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
(Think they heard me?)

Message: 63320
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: bob/mind-gym
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 08:47:50

OK, Bob, are you finished with your tirade ? Now, please answer my question
(poorly remembered, I'm sure) about your views on the age of the earth.   

Message: 63321
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Paul/earth age
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 08:50:56

I have no trouble with what you said.

Message: 63322
Author: Larry Michaels
Category: Answer!
Subject: Zak
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 10:15:32

You ask: "Who do we punish?"  Punish is an interesting word.  It reminds me
of an unhealthy society, this word punish.  It seems as if the whole bloody
planet is on a punishment trip.  This in itself is an indicator of the
overall intelligence of the inhabitants of planet Earth.

Sure the criminal is guilty.  I doubt if there is anyone, anywhere that is
not guilty.  We are all guilty and we all need punishment, lots of it.  Oh'
whip me, whip me good!

Strange thing is that those who put people in prisons should also put
themselves in.  It is just that they are in a position of safety unless of
course a higher-up needs them out of the way.

Our society, as a whole, is hardened, greedy and paranoid.  If the cards
were called in at this moment the human experiment would be a loser.  Cats
are more civilized even though they catch birds.  We do much worse.  We
make margarine.

Our leaders do not carry a spirit of love.  Instead they carry one of rule
and power for their own kind.  What does a national military budget of 130
billion dollars tell you?  Isn't this a crime in itself.  But there is no
way to punish the perpetrators.  Instead we pick the lowly man on the
street to go after.  He was caught with a joint and now he is in jail at
taxpayers expense.

Charles Manson, in his hatred of those who had wealth was responsible for a
dozen deaths.  The U.S. Military machine is responsible for many more than
that.  Just by spending billions on war toys causes important social
programs to be cut back or eliminated.  How many deaths and how much
hardship has this caused.  Criminals indeed!

One good way to begin making The Great Change would be to cut out
television shows like "Dallas".  (Just a thought.)

Message: 63324
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Drug Talk
Subject: Zak on dumb?
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 10:42:13

        That post was in jest...  What you seem to perceive as an
intelligent person...  I guess I laugh at.   I know some people that I
consider intelligent and they do not touch the stuff.  On the other hand I
know several drug users (some are even friends) and I do not consider them
intelligent even though they may be smart in some fields.

        Give up it up Zak, you will not convert me from this.  You have your
right to your definition of what you call intelligent...  but I have mine
too.  I think everyone has their own idea on this subject.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 63325
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Sex & Love
Subject: M-Dee
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 11:12:14

        We heard you!

(Glad to see someone thinking nice thoughts)

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 63326
Author: $ James Hawley
Category: Answer!
Subject: Adkins/margarine
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 14:06:47

One question (brought up by someone else in a discussion)...  

What about vegetable margarine?  They don't use beef or lard in many, do
they?  I don't have any margarine in the fridge, so I can't check...

Message: 63327
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Larry Michaels
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 16:08:24

     You totally evaded my question.
 
     Again, if society is as responsible as criminals, who do we punish? 
Are you saying we shouldn't punish murderers?  Or that we shouldn't punish
anyone?  If so, how could society function if it didn't deter acts that are
harmful to others?
 
     

Message: 63328
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 16:10:54

     I'm not sure what you're saying.  I thouht you were saying that you had
changed your mind about drug laws.
     What is your definition of intelligence?  
 
     Why do you need to label users or non-users as "intelligent" or
"not-intelligent"?  I think this is an oversimplification and is more
harmful to the discussion than helpful.  

Message: 63329
Author: Mike Carter
Category: Answer!
Subject: CLiff/ Last
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 16:45:23

I think Cliff was trying to convey the idea that doing drugs
and making the decision to take them is not an intelligent one.
Being addicted, taking drugs, being healthy, running daily
have no bearing on a persons intelligence.
What is an "intelligent" descision for me may be the worst one
for you.
Drugs may adversely effect the ability of a person to achieve
a good score on an IQ test...but anyone can do that.

Message: 63330
Author: Mike Carter
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Suicide
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 16:59:50

If we allow abortions to be legalized, then we can argue using the same
arguments to allow suicide to be legalized. The Pro-choice and
Pro-life groups will have another 10 years to battle!
Once suicide is legalized, euthanasia could be ratified by making
"quality of life" "descision making capability" arguments for those
born deformed, the aged and elderly and those who lost limbs and
stuff in an accident.
Suicide is another form censorship.
It's also a cowards way of telling everyone how selfish they are.
Kinda like trying to hurt someone else by hurting yourself.
Teenage suicide;
        The result of selfish parents who spent little time
teaching their kids how to cope with others. The result of a society
that places little value on life. The result of individualism.
The result of wanting everything, getting part of it and not the rest.
        
Society is commiting suicide. The faster the better. 

Message: 63331
Author: Melissa Dee
Category: Answer!
Subject: Last
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 17:13:09

That is a very blind view, Mike.  Many children have no other options but to
kill themselves to get out of an abusive environment.  Or at least they feel
they have no options.  I'm sure glad you're not on a suicide hotline.

Message: 63332
Author: Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: James/margerine
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 17:42:19

No, to the best of my knowledge you are correct.  For example, I believe we
use Mazola, which is "made from 100 percent corn oil."
I'm not sure, but I tend to think that in this country, vegatable margerine
dominates the market.  The author, who was living in France at the time, but
who went to England for the available references (Science Reference of the
British Library, the Imperial College Library, and the main University of
London library, as well as the Science Museum library for historical
references.  I'm not sure what the make-up of the British/European margerine
market is, so I couldn't say if this influenced him.
He also sought help on problems of applied science and technology (the
author has a degree in pure mathematics), but these references are too
numerous to list.
 

Message: 63333
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Roger
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 19:56:08

Re:  "are you finished with your tirade"

Tirade huh?  I take the time to go back and list the facts, and your only
response is tirade.  That's getting to be very typical of you Roger.  And
why should I answer your question when you have totally ignored mine?

Message: 63334
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Larry M.
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 19:57:56

Re:  "We are all guilty and we all need punishment, lots of it.  Oh'
whip me, whip me good!"

You talk like you need it.

Message: 63335
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: James H.
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 20:00:33

Re:  "What about vegetable margarine?"

Well I looked the fridge, and there were 2 different brands of Margarine.

Neither had any animal ingredients.

Message: 63336
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Answer!
Subject: Mike C.
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 20:43:21

  Suicide doesn't need to be legalized, it is already legal. It is only
an unsuccessful attempt at suicide which is illegal in some places.
   See You Later
      Dean H.

Message: 63337
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: bob
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 21:45:07

All right. I'll spell it out for you, since my line of argumentation
seems too subtle for you. I propose to show that you use "mind-gymnastics"
in defense of a position I think you will take with respect to literal
interpretation of the Bible. I started this by asking you a question
about your belief of the age of the universe. You have ignored that 
question. I assume you have ignored that question because you sense
that I will use whatever argument you use as an example of mind-gymnastics.
If you have assumed that is what I intend to do, you are quite correct.

Message: 63338
Author: Mike Middleton
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Drugs
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 23:22:32

Hello, Bob, nice to see you again. Sorry to have to be the one to tell you,
but drug use is not as simple as all that. Common sense is a nice term, but
people are complex and the reasons they do things are never that easy.
People from all walks of life and all intellegence and"common sense" levels
fall into the trap of the lie of drugs. THe only thing I can find in common
with the users of drugs and alcohol is a poor understanding that when things
are not as we would have them to be, it is US that has to change, not them.
 
Mike

Message: 63339
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Feel like a new man!
Date: 02/14/90  Time: 23:36:31

Well, here is my first entry as a status user.
(Oohhhh, ahhhhh)
 
So, why hasn't anyone brought up Ghee in this bitter butter controvercy,
hum?