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Apollo BBS Archive - December 19, 1991
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Mail from Apollo SysOp
Date: 12/19/91 Time: 08:25:12
[A]bort, [N]ew only, [R]ead or [S]kip:Read
Hi Rod..
Yes, I sure have learned a lot.. Maybe the next time someone askes
why I keep Apollo, I will tell them because i learn so much from it.
Maybe I did get up tight about the auto pollution thing, but I see
autos as a necessary evil in todays world. I keep mine in very high tune
and do my part to not pollute in excess... I am sure Nick's car is in very
high tune as well.
You letter made cX=Qz9M1BJiV+
$]7.4
8oint you
were making) so I guess you can write well when you ciose to.
Have a Happy Rod.. I like 9o| a lot!
[A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:{{{{{{{{{{{{{_{{Insty/
RJA1e
Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
1:I {am a{ga{in {getting a {lot of garbage{...so I will log off and t{ry
again,
2:sometimes this helps{.
3:
4:I also swe{ th{e au{to as a necessary evil. Until something{ b{etter
{comes along{ w
5:we a{re stU{ck.{
6:end
Edit command:S
Saving message...
As for the message to which you replied...
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Mail from Apollo SysOp
Date: 12/19/91 Time: 08:29:00
[A]bort, [N]ew only, [R]ecD@=IbeZ%Ai~Read
Yes, I understand, we are who we are and that is the way it is. You keep
being you... I guess I got tied up into the serious side of the debate.
I tend to take pollution serious, as that is one big HQ
P' fault. I do
knotice the population is beginning to learn... it's a beggining anyway.
I am NOT mad...
Oh, yea, that Ann,"d^ "!%9 11eBUIQ9J +W$,YY7Q%9 !I
many letters... she was on the verge of leaving Apollo, and I want no one to
leave. They are family.
[A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:{{{Zap
Mail from Apollo SysOp
Date: 12/20/91 Time: 20:24:10
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Yea, the solar auto....
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
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Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
1:By the way I noticed in your greeting that you have holiday spelled wrong
2:and the apostrophe should not be in Sysop.
3:
4:Solar auto is a good idea. A city auto with a snap-on highway module would
5:be a good idea. A auto built like bumper cars with thick shock asorbing
6:material all around. I would love to be in on development of this auto.
7:You have a machine shop....hmmm.
8:
9:A slip out battery module and 'service centers' at every Circle K and 7
10:Eleven where one could pull up, slide their battery pack out then slide in a
11:fresh one, all in a jiffy and at a reasonable cost. Let's develop one.
12: Rod
Post Office command:G
Goodbye, Rod Williams
You were on 02:30
Please hang up now
\ 6-M5 F V^a 1 dn
NO CARRIER
~ATDT8431704 RINGING
CONNECT 1200
Type
Apollo 8.0 300/1200/2400
What is your first name:ROD
What is your last name:WILLIAMS
Hello, Rod Williams
Is your name correct:Yes
Password:
Password:$$$$$$$
Caller # 166575 (18 today)
It is now 12/20/91 20:07:41
Last on @ 12/20/91 20:07:14
Last message read was (80672)
Message range is (80459-80712)
You have logged in 1821 times
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Message: 5275
Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: muscle cars
Date: 12/19/91 Time: 04:07:32
I didn't realize you were going for a faithful restoration. Since that it
the case, obviously you've got no choice but to stick with the stock
exhaust.
If, however, you ever wanted to put the Cuda on the street and clean up the
exhaust, there's no reason you couldn't run 10.5:1 compression. A
computerized engine management system would be necessary, but you could keep
everything else pretty much stock.
Message: 5276
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Answer !
Subject: Rod
Date: 12/19/91 Time: 08:37:47
Utility bills freak me out as well...
I do not know the exact costs.... but each time APS ups its rate,
my panels give me more in pay-back. I believe they have been cost efficient
for me, and over the years have saved me more then I paid for them...and
they do not pollute!
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 5277
Author: $ Fred Smith
Category: Quickie
Subject: Nick/Slick
Date: 12/19/91 Time: 15:01:19
What makes you think Slick 50 works? I put it in my Blazer and saw no
change whatsoever in anything. I'd like to think it works but didn't see
any eveidence for it.
Message: 5278
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: Solar
Date: 12/19/91 Time: 19:29:31
When I was doing solar research last year, it didn't seem worth it,
especially for anything of reasonable size to take over much of the house.
I did notice that there was some prediction of panels with new technology
being available in the near future, at reduced cost/watt. Anybody know if
these are out?
Cliff, I have a hard time believing that your system has been
cost-effective, given that it is not used to anywhere near capacity (info
given to me by you during a conversation).
Message: 5279
Author: $ Nick Ianuzzi
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: Slick-50
Date: 12/20/91 Time: 04:08:30
In the last two cars that I have owned (The Trans Am and the Vette), I have
noticed mileage gains of about 1.5 or 2 mpg after adding Slick-50. Note
that it was added well after engine break-in, so the increase in mileage was
not a result of rings seating, etc.
In the Trans-Am, I thought I noticed a power gain as well. I don't notice
anything in the Vette, however.
X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:EC
You chose Cosmos-Chatter
Subject:Slick 50
Enter a line containing only an <*> to stop
1:I just pee in my tank every 543 miles.
2:end
Edit command:S
Saving message...
The message is 5280
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Message: 80673
Author: James Matlock
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rod/death jokes
Date: 12/19/91 Time: 02:32:47
I read this in a book the other day:
"Ammonia can be regarded as the parent of the compounds called amines.
Amines often retain the pungency of ammonia but frequently in a modified and
more disagreeable form. To see the kind of change that occurs, you should
turn to putrecine (131) and its partner cadaverine, as one day you certainly
will."
Message: 80674
Author: James Matlock
Category: Question?
Subject: Melissa Dee
Date: 12/19/91 Time: 02:34:37
No, I didn't see it. Please fill me in.
Message: 80675
Author: $ Green Lantern
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: SysOp/bitter
Date: 12/19/91 Time: 07:40:43
atheists. You're projecting again, Cliff.
Message: 80676
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Answer!
Subject: Dee...
Date: 12/19/91 Time: 08:59:42
Catholics believe in 'Christ' Miz Dee. Not only did I just say
'Christians', but I added "believing in Christ as Son of God" to make sure
people understood the question. There are many denominations and religions
who believe in 'Christ as son of God'...hence they are "Christians".
As for the Atheists and Agnostics and ETC., I could not think of
another way to word it so to fit it into the limited space. I suppose I
could have said 'non-Christians'...but I suspect someone would have found
something wrong with that as well. I was hoping that "ETC." would have
covered everything else.
I will add the words 'Non-Christians' to the ote question
for those of you who have not oted... I just did not think of it at the
time of installing the ote question. GEESH!
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 80677
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Politics
Subject: Archimedes
Date: 12/19/91 Time: 09:35:13
I feel we're just going around in circles, Archimedes, so I'm bowing out for
now.
Message: 80678
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: last/Bill
Date: 12/19/91 Time: 10:22:55
No one expects you to undo 40 or so years of governmental propaganda
in a few minutes of post reading. The idea here is to just listen (read)
and think about it. Someday something may 'pop' to shed the light on the
rest of it. Then maybe never.... But I suspect before the year 2000, we
will all know for sure.
I just hope we ALL will find out before it is too late... We may
have to spill rivers of blood to get it all back again. sigh!
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
P.S. I never believed any of it at first myself when told about it years
ago... but it seems to be all falling in place. It takes time...
Message: 80679
Author: $ Fred Smith
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Invest/Cliff
Date: 12/19/91 Time: 11:31:44
>>Sigh, so smart yet so blind.
This is NOT a personal observation of either you, me or anyone else in
particular, just a general observation -= To wit - I don't think you can
make a case that those people who "believe" in gold are so smart that they
are the ones who own lots of REAL property in quantity and that those people
who are "blind" are the ones on the short end of the economic stick. Who is
living the good life, driving $190,000 Mercedes, living in{20,000 sf houses,
etc? It is the people who INVEST their assets, NOT the people who are
sqirrling away little hoards of gold and waiting for the "imminent" collapse
of society that are doing well. And I hope you aren't going to say how they
are all crooks, etc, etc, - they are not all crooks.
Message: 80680
Author: $ Fred Smith
Category: Answer!
Subject: Rod/What is rich
Date: 12/19/91 Time: 11:35:24
He's that little guy that empties the ashtrays at the car wash.
Message: 80681
Author: $ Fred Smith
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff/Gold
Date: 12/19/91 Time: 11:39:32
You're in too deep to get out now!!:-)
Realizing that you just read my previous post and may have already
answered I still have to throw in again, in reponse to your "I can't believe
people like FRNs so much...etc...." that people who roll up the really big
bucks don't do it by squirreling away a sack of coins. They do it by
jumping into the FRN fray and engaging the various and sundry time honored
capitalistic investment methods, most of which are perfectly moral and
legal.
Message: 80682
Author: $ Green Lantern
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Fred/Financial
Date: 12/19/91 Time: 12:34:21
investing. Indeed. I had a friend who played the financial futures market.
If he believed that the Swiss franc was going to appreciate relative to the
dollar he'd buy Swiss francs and short the dollar. Futures too risky for you
? Use CBOE options on those futures. Bullish on gold ? Buy the futures. BTW,
I've read some financial advisors do advise that 10 percent of your assets
should be in some sort of disaster hedge like cigarettes or soap. Our Mormon
friends have it right. They have stashed away enough of this stuff to become
rich if a disaster ever did strike. Gold in a disaster ? Worthless. You
can't eat it, smoke it, or use it to wipe your butt.
Message: 80683
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Fred/sigh
Date: 12/19/91 Time: 12:55:39
Just because people use gold/silver does not mean they 'squirrel' it
away or 'hoard' it. To have gold/silver does not stop one from investing.
The person I know that has quite a bit of gold (by my standard) also has
many investments...he owns a chain of stores and a quarter million FRN
home... and many cars.
Fred, you have a FALSE picture in your head of the many people who
believe we should be back to the basics of our Constitution and that
includes REAL dollars and a system of substance.
And, again.. not EVERY American can afford to invest, and he should
not be punished for it by having his hard labor earned FRNs devalue before
his very eyes. He has Constitutional RIGHTS, and they are being violated
by the Government!
Archimedes can explain this better as he seems to have his facts
quite well organized. I am dropping out of this, but will read with GREAT
interest so I may learn more.
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif- I do not 'hoard'
Message: 80684
Author: $ Fred Smith
Category: Answer!
Subject: Arch/How come
Date: 12/19/91 Time: 14:13:42
How come when I point to the differences between "now" an"then" you say
"..You cannot apply todays standard to back then.." and then you launch into
a recitation of how things were back then that supposedly show your point??
If I can't use em neither can you!!
Message: 80685
Author: $ Fred Smith
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Arch
Date: 12/19/91 Time: 14:24:46
Glad to see you are softening up a little. Still basically seems to me that
the whole basis for your desired gold standard would be to prevent gvt from
controlling "money" in ANY way at all. You have presented a couple of
scenerios of how things might go but they always include gvt at some point
having some connection to the gold "standard". Perhaps you would like to
explain what would prevent, under your scheme(s), the gvt from simply
instituting a tax on YOUR gold and making the tax payable ONLY in gold. You
could have your treasured gold standard and yet the gvt would STILL be able
to control everything thru the tax system. Again, the cruz of your concerns
revolves around somehow stopping the gvt from doing what you don't think the
gvt should do. I see no reason to think that the gold standard could not
EASILY be controlled by the gvt one way or another.
Message: 80686
Author: $ Fred Smith
Category: Answer!
Subject: Arch
Date: 12/19/91 Time: 14:39:41
You say on the one hand that the gvt must follow the constitution which
demands that they follow the valuation formula of 1.0 US Dollar = 25.8
grains of gold and then somehow claim that gold and dollars are not being
valued against each other and that the value of Gold is not being controlled
by the gvt. Are you blind??
Message: 80687
Author: $ Fred Smith
Category: Answer!
Subject: Arch
Date: 12/19/91 Time: 14:46:46
The answer of who is more "wealthy" the owner or raw material or the person
operating them depends on the political and tax system to some extent ~raand
on how you measure "wealth". But in the absence of those considerations I
think the person who owns the raw materials ought to be the wealthiest.
But on the other hand, it may not take much "smarts" to own something but it
may take quite a bit of smarts to properly "add" value to it so in that case
it may be the manager who is most wealthy when the dust settles.
Message: 80688
Author: $ Fred Smith
Category: Answer!
Subject: Arch
Date: 12/19/91 Time: 14:48:48
Gvt suspends payment of rent?? Nonsensical question. Makes as much sense as
me asking you what you will do when the gvt demands that you cease trading
in gold and silver and turn it all into the gvt.
s
Message: 80689
Author: $ Fred Smith
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: GreenL/ Ciggs
Date: 12/19/91 Time: 14:53:52
Interesting that tobacco STILL is used as a medium of exchange after all
these years!!!!!
Message: 80690
Author: $ Fred Smith
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff
Date: 12/19/91 Time: 14:57:46
Where do you get the idea that peoples FRNs are devaluing before his eyes??
Unless he has LOTS of them "stored" under his mattress or sitting in a
non-interest bearing account he has NO FRNs devaluing. He may have a house,
or lot, or shares of stock or whatever, but those things are NOT FRNs and
their value may be going up down or sideways. You "gold" people seem to
think that EVERYTHING but gold has done nothing but go down in value from
the minute someone buys it. FRNs are NOT wealth, they are chits.
Message: 80691
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bill Benson released
Date: 12/19/91 Time: 15:16:48
As some of you may remember, I spoke some time ago of a Mr. Bill Benson,
former IRS investigator and co-author of the book "THE LAW THAT NEVER WAS,"
which is a collection of certified copies of the legislative records of the
States which purportedly ratified the 16th (Income Tax) Amendment. I
mentioned that having incurred the wrath of the powers-that-be by exposing
their scam, Mr. Benson was subsequently tried and convicted of transgressing
the IR Code, and while in prison, was forcibly given drugs which resulted in
seizures ultimately confining him to a wheelchair.
Mr. Benson has finally been released under rather curious procedures, and is
now recuperating at home. In this month's issue of NCBA REPORTS, the
monthly report of the National Commodity & Barter Association, John Voss,
the Director of NCBA, interviews Mr. Benson. He has quite a story to tell
of his incarceration, the forcible and overdosage injection of experimental
drugs into his veins, his subsequent successful efforts at getting the
prison rebuilt to suit his wheelchair, the odd and certainly not procedural
circumstances of his release, and his future plans.
I have uploaded the interview to the ibrary in two parts at present
labeled "Bill.Benson.1" and "Bill.Benson.2". The only reason for making it
two parts is that my word processor is only good for about 11k and couldn't
quite encompass the whole thing in one file. [Cliff or Bill, if you can
combine it into one file, it would probably be better. Thanks!]
Message: 80692
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Bulletins
Subject: BENSON.TXT
Date: 12/19/91 Time: 21:21:53
Mr Archimedes's files are now one file under the name BENSON.TXT
This ASCII file is now in the ibrary for ownload.
It is not a very large file (not as big as America... Occupied)
and should make easy reading... I HIGHLY recommend it.
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 80693
Author: James Matlock
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Fred/wealth
Date: 12/19/91 Time: 23:17:55
You're exactly right: wealth is NOT money, be it frns, gold, or seashells.
Wealth is what brings INCOME. One of the biggest problems of socialism is
the inability of socialists to distinguish between static money and wealth
(in our sense of the term). They think that by redistributing money, you
redistribute wealth, but you don't. If someone has 100 dollars, and 99
other people have pennies, and someone comes along and redistributes that
money so that everyone has a dollar, that improves the lot of those 99
people -- but only for a very short time. After that, *everyone* is worse
off. Wealth requires concentration. That's why the rich generally get
richer.
Message: 80694
Author: James Matlock
Category: Tales & Tall Stories
Subject: Benson's Hedges
Date: 12/19/91 Time: 23:25:01
He fought the law, and the (pause) law won.
Would anyone care to buy some hitherto undiscovered gems of real estate?
Message: 80695
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Sorry, (Sniff)
Subject: ...to hear that.
Date: 12/20/91 Time: 07:18:24
BB> I feel we're just going around in circles, Archimedes, so I'm bowing
BB> out for now.
I'm sorry to hear you say that (or read you saying that; whatever). I
thought we were just getting to the crux of the matter. But I understand
how one can periodically get burned out on this stuff. What Cliff said in
response to your message was very appropriate, and I second his comments.
Keep your eyes and ears open; GM's announcement that 24,000 people will be
separated and a bunch of their plants closed sounds to me like the loud
*crack!* that precedes the low rumble of the avalanche.
After it's all over and the dust has settled, I hope you remember that
George Washington's leadership presided over the same kind of economic
avalanche which was the major cause of the Constitutional Convention in the
first place, and that the cause of that avalanche was widely perceived to be
"the evils of paper money," that the avalanche was seen by many at the
Constitutional Convention as "a favorable crisis to crush paper money once
and for all," and that a mere one year after the Constitution was ratified
-- with gold and silver coin established as the *only* legal tender of the
land -- George Washington's State of the Union address reported that the
return to economic prosperity had "exceeded all expectations."
I say this because we are clearly going to have to do it again.
Message: 80696
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Politics
Subject: Now and then
Date: 12/20/91 Time: 07:19:36
FS> How come when I point to the differences between "now" an"then" you say
FS> "..You cannot apply todays standard to back then.." and then you launch
FS> into a recitation of how things were back then that supposedly show
FS> your point?? If I can't use em neither can you!!
Oh, if I ask you to stop using today as a standard for back then, then I
can't use the viewpoint back then as a standard for back then? C'mon, Fred.
You can do better than that.
To keep this from deflecting the course of the discussion, I re-state my
assertion vis-a-vis "back then:" From 1800 to 1900, under a bimetallic gold
and silver standard, the living standard of the working people improved more
than it had improved in the last 18 centuries.
Now, I am not suggesting there have been no improvements in the living
standard since. I do assert that improvements in the living standard since
has been at the cost of our children's future, and needn't have been, were
it not for the fraudulent monetary standard. I further note that
improvements in the living standard have just now ground to a halt for most
working people thanks to the economic devastation caused by that fraudulent
monetary standard.
[Continued 1 page]
Message: 80697
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Politics
Subject: Crooks
Date: 12/20/91 Time: 07:21:00
The point is this: Under a gold/silver monetary standard, wages go up and
the cost of living goes down over time. Under this fraudulent monetary
system, wages go up, but the cost of living goes up faster -- *lots* faster,
and most of that increase in the cost of living is deferred onto future
generations to their extreme detriment.
Now, whether you like it or not, or even believe it or not, between 1800 and
1900, under a bimetallic gold/silver monetary standard, wages *did* go up
for the worker and the cost of living *did* go down for the worker, and
nothing but wealth was passed on to future generations. The same cannot be
said of the period from 1913 on, when wages went up, the cost of living went
up faster, and our children's cost of living in future generations has gone
up astronomically faster -- the only thing *we* are leaving our children is
back-breaking debt and a heritage of victimization.
I don't know about you, but I consider it *criminal* to rob our children of
their future to live the cushy life of a well-pampered bankster-slave here
and now. I consider it criminal to even condone it. I *certainly* consider
it criminal to take personal advantage of it and thereby perpetuate and
exacerbate the scam to the greater detriment of future generations.
Therefore, yes, I do consider those who blithely jump into the 'FRN fray,'
as you put it, and play the game according to the illegal rules of crooks,
as *crooks.*
Message: 80698
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Politics
Subject: Basically...
Date: 12/20/91 Time: 07:22:13
FS> Glad to see you are softening up a little.
Dear me, whatever did I say to give you that impression?
FS> Still basically seems to me that the whole basis for your desired gold
FS> standard would be to prevent gvt from controlling "money" in ANY way at
FS> all.
Uh, is that what you think I am saying, or is it the only way *you* think
what I am saying would work? Regardless, the only purpose of gov't is to
protect the rights of the people, and the people have an inherited and
unalienable right to a stable and dependable medium of exchange. They had
that from when the Constitution was ratified until 1913. Whether you think
the gov't "controls" money, or the value of it, or whatever, is irrelevant
to the fact that the system imposed upon gov't by the Constitution worked
well until it was replaced in 1913, and it did not have to be replaced in
1913 by any gold drain or any other factor.
Message: 80699
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Politics
Subject: Scheme(s)
Date: 12/20/91 Time: 07:23:08
FS> Perhaps you would like to explain what would prevent, under your
FS> scheme(s), the gvt from simply instituting a tax on YOUR gold and
FS> making the tax payable ONLY in gold.
The same thing that prevented it the last time you asked that question: the
Constitution of the United States. Gov't could do that to *your* gold
because you are a juristic person, i.e., you are exercising privileges
granted by gov't. Gov't could not do it to me because I am a natural
individual at law exercising no privilege granted by gov't.
Besides, it is not my "scheme(s)"; it is Roger Sherman's scheme and it
belongs to the people of the United States; they have a right to it under
the Constitution.
Message: 80700
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Politics
Subject: Valuation and ...
Date: 12/20/91 Time: 07:24:09
FS> You say on the one hand that the gvt must follow the constitution which
FS> demands that they follow the valuation formula of 1.0 US Dollar = 25.8
FS> grains of gold ...
Whoa, whoa. I do say that gov't is required to obey the Constitution (upon
pain of ceasing to be gov't), and the Constitution does provide and require
gold and silver coin as the only Constitutional tender in payment of debts;
however, the Constitution does not demand that gov't follows the valuation
formula of 1.0 US Dollar = 25.8 grains of gold (which establishes the value
of the "Dollar" but not of the gold). That formula was established by
Congress and remains a law today, but it is within the purview of Congress
to change it, subject to presidential veto and judicial review as with any
other law.
Message: 80701
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Question?
Subject: ... Value
Date: 12/20/91 Time: 07:25:05
FS> ... and then somehow claim that gold and dollars are not being valued
FS> against each other and that the value of Gold is not being controlled
FS> by the gvt. Are you blind??
No. Are you? I'll tell you what: before we proceed and start calling each
other idiots, let's define our terms so we can talk the same language. How
do you define "value," and how do you denominate it? In other words, to
your way of thinking, what *is* it and in what units do you count it?
Message: 80702
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Politics
Subject: Owner or Manager
Date: 12/20/91 Time: 07:26:17
FS> The answer of who is more "wealthy" the owner or raw material or the
FS> person operating them depends on the political and tax system to some
FS> extent *raand on how you measure "wealth".
You've got that right! And that is the substance of our controversy, I
might add. However, let us be more specific: I presume from your previous
comments that you are in the possession and control, and consider yourself
as "owning," an apartment building and the land it sits on. (Whether you
actually do or not is irrelevant and moot and none of my business
particularly, but it presents a good example for discussion.)
Taking this property as an example, and stepping outside yourself for a
moment, would you consider yourself more "wealthy" by virtue of your
ownership and control of this property, or would you consider yourself more
"wealthy" by virtue of your management and control of this property?
To re-phrase the question: Considering that being "more wealthy" is a
desirable goal for you, would you prefer to own and control, or manage and
control, the property just described, and why?
Message: 80703
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Politics
Subject: Rent
Date: 12/20/91 Time: 07:27:23
FS> Gvt suspends payment of rent?? Nonsensical question. Makes as much
FS> sense as u what you will do when the gvt demands that you cease trading
FS> in gold and silver and turn it all into the gvt.
Sorry, Fred, but you're naive. Not only is it a perfectly sensible
question, but it has been done before in various areas of the world,
particularly in a wartime (invasion) situation; it is one of the standard
applications of martial law and may be invoked not only by the President but
also by local military commanders, and it is currently one of the unexecuted
Executive Orders to be executed by FEMA in the event of a national
emergency. Furthermore, your counterpoint of asking what I will do when
gov't demands that I cease trading in gold and silver and turn it all over
to the gov't is no more nonsensical than my question to you; it also has
been done and was a matter of law in this country up until 1934.
However, I asked you first. Therefore, I repeat: What are you going to do
when, at a time of 'total economic collapse,' gov't declares the suspension
of all rent payments?
Message: 80704
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Politics
Subject: Cliff/Arch-Listening
Date: 12/20/91 Time: 10:48:27
> I never believed any of it at first myself when told about it
> years ago... but it seems to be all falling in place. It takes
> time...
Well, for me it seems to work in the opposite direction: The more I hear in
the way of details, the less convinced I am. A cursory listening to the
evidence seems to show a great deal of correlation between Archimedes's
overall theory and current (and past) events. But the further you get into
it, the more detail you get, the less it seems to make sense. Assumptions
and accusations and circumstantial evidence pile on more assumptions,
accusations and circumstantial evidence until there seems to be no hard,
factual foundation for the theory at all.
Of course, I'm still open to listening.
Message: 80705
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Politics
Subject: Bill/evidence
Date: 12/20/91 Time: 13:20:17
Well Bill, I understand what you are going though. For me, it
probably helps that my wife (Sandy) is from Montana and knows Red Beckman or
at least has has comunication with him and others. I knew the Gordon Kahl
story years ago... and I have more detail on it then has been told on this
BBS. My wife also has read "The Law That Never Was" and many other such
publications. What I am trying to say (I think) is that to meet and know
these people who know, makes it more believable.
Though out history, people have always scoffed at things about to
happen as foolishness... are you going to be one of them?
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 80706
Author: $ Green Lantern
Category: Politics
Subject: Bill/correlation
Date: 12/20/91 Time: 13:33:10
What is the old Roman saying ? "Post hoc, ex propter hoc ?"
Message: 80707
Author: $ Fred Smith
Category: Answer!
Subject: Arch
Date: 12/20/91 Time: 13:57:51
Value = The selling price - what a freely acting buyer and freely acting
seller agree to.
How to denominate it = Doesn't matter. Can be whatever the buyer and seller
agree to be it dollars, seashells, or ounces of gold.
Message: 80708
Author: $ Fred Smith
Category: Answer!
Subject: Arch
Date: 12/20/91 Time: 14:01:53
Own or Control -
It's far to complicated to give a simple answer but generally I would tend
to choose ownership as just being the manager is essentially just working
for a living and you may not have a job tomorrow. Your "wealth" as a
manager, is really only your "job" and except for unusual situations (like a
seat on the Chicago Board of Trade, etc) can't be sold. So in that sense,
being a manager really isn't wealth at all.
Message: 80709
Author: $ Fred Smith
Category: Answer!
Subject: Arch
Date: 12/20/91 Time: 14:06:33
Your question remains meaningless. In total economic collapse, the issue of
whether rent is collectable will be a minor point and it is unlikely the gvt
could enforce it's eddict even if it passed it. And YOUR question was far
less likely to REALLY happen in THIS country then mine to you. As you know,
my question to you DID essentially happen once before.
Message: 80710
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Econ 101 reprise
Date: 12/20/91 Time: 14:16:11
Since I made a hash out of 'Econ. 101' by losing the 3rd segment of the
message, I thought I would try to re-hash it here by providing a general
understanding of how a gold/silver based monetary system works without
government "control," and how a paper money system *must* be controlled in
order to function at all, and how every control input to a paper money
system makes it worse.
When I finished it, I found it ran to seven and one-quarter pages at the
rate of 24 lines per page. Therefore I have uploaded it to the ibrary
and called it "Econ101.txt". I hope you all find it helpful.
Meanwhile, on the premise that gov't exists for no other purpose than to
protect the rights of the people, and on the Jefferson (and Libertarian)
premise of "That government is best which governs least," I'd like us to
discuss the following idea:
Why is it necessary for government (or the banksters) to mint, coin, or
print money at all? The Constitution states that no Thing but Gold or
Silver Coin shall be made a Tender in payment of Debt, and provides that
Congress shall have power to Coin money, but does that *require* gov't to
Coin Money? Why not simply have a law, as now exists, which defines a U.S.
"Dollar" as, say, 25.8 grains of gold .9 fine, and then require all Legal
Tender to be denominated in U.S. Dollars, and allow anyone to mint them
provided they do indeed either contain the required weight and fineness of
Message: 80711
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: New idea
Date: 12/20/91 Time: 14:17:13
gold and/or are *rigorously* *backed* by the required weight and substance
of gold? Also, allow anyone to contract in any substance they want, so long
as the substance is convertible to U.S. Dollars as defined by law?
Having suggested we consider such an 'open house' type of legal tender, we
might also consider that under current laws this option is already open.
The only thing making it difficult is the IRS, which exists solely to
prevent the FED's worthless paper money from hyper-inflating, but which has
the collateral ability to tax the very bejabbers out of any other form of
money we, the people choose to use. Therefore the IRS must be abolished,
which is a good objective in any event, and toward which many associations
nation-wide are working.
I am not convinced this is a good idea in all respects, but I am convinced
the debt-money we have now is a very bad criminal idea and desperately needs
to be put to rest before it causes any more destruction of people's lives,
now or in the future.
Comments, anyone?
Message: 80712
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: ECON101.TXT
Date: 12/20/91 Time: 18:28:47
The file is now in the [L]ibrary... and only 12 K long....
If you forget the name, use the [S]earch CMD and use Archimedes or GOLD or
SILVER or FRNs as the [S]earch string...
Not, off to growl at Mr Archimedes....
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 80713
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: DEATH
Date: 12/21/91 Time: 00:29:01
I must write at least one more post on this subject because something keeps
buzzing around my skull that I want to get off of my chest. Here goes.
I vision that it is the hour before my death, that I am reflecting on how I
lived my life. Did I hide in a closet, full of fear, or did I experience a
fuller life? This thought has changed me in that my decisions are more
based on experiencing life than hiding from it.
I don't know if I am making my point so I will try again. In my death
throes and I look back do I want to see someone who hides from life or
someone who stands up to it?
It has changed my life.
Rod
Public Bulletin Board command:M
*=* Main Menu entered *=*
Main Menu command:L
*=* Library entered *=*
Library command:S
Search for what:GOLD
ECON101.TXT ASCII FILE :Monetary System of Gold/Silver & FRNs
Uploaded by Archimedes 12/20/91
Library command:D
[A]SCII or [X]MODEM:ASCII
File to download:ECON101.TXT
File is 12K long
[A]bort or [S]tart download:Start download
ECON 101
by
Archimedes
A discussion of how our current economy, based upon a fraudulent monetary
system created out of thin air, works and more often fails to work, and a
comparison with the constitutional monetary system of intrinsic value which
has been stolen from us.
With a paper-backed monetary standard, particularly one like ours, where
the control of the economy has been illegally turned over to a private
internationally-owned corporation, there is no legal or practical or
natural limits on the amount of cash which may be placed in circulation.
If the fed wants to stimulate the economy, it prints more paper money and
lends it into circulation, perhaps lowering the prime lending rate in the
process. Money becomes more easily available for borrowing, for investing,
for capitalization, and the economy heats up. Every frn printed, however,
is *lent* into circulation at the prime lending rate of interest, and the
fed member banks to which frns are lent then lend it out again at a higher
interest rate.
Government obtains its operating capital by borrowing it from these banks.
The result, therefore, is not even a marginal increase in national wealth.
The result is a horrendous increase in national debt.
Increasing the cash in circulation by this method, moreover, causes the
purchasing power of each frn to decrease substantially by the simple fact
that there is an increase in cash in circulation without a commensurate
increase in the actual wealth o f the nation -- this is called "inflation."
Inflation occurs because printing-press cash can be introduced into
circulation much faster than the economy can catch up with and produce the
wealth commensurate with the amount of cash in circulation.
In order to prevent inflation from "taking off" and becoming hyper-
inflation, as Germany experienced (which led to the emergence of Hitler and
the start of WWII) and as Argentina experienced during and following the
Falklands war and as the U.S. experienced when the Second Continental
Congress issued paper money which rapidly became worthless (remember the
phrase 'it's not worth a continental?'), a Gestapo-like agency with
draconian powers must be formed, the duty of which is to pull a significant
portion of that money out of circulation before it gets spent. In the U.S.
that agency is the so-called Internal Revenue Service.
Thus an increase in cash in circulation causes a tremendous increase in
actual inflation; however, the apparent inflation is held to a moderate
level by the removal of cash from circulation by the IRS. This cash removed
is credited toward the national debt and the interest on the national debt
by bookkeeping entries, and then the cash is shredded. But the cash has
already been printed and lent out at interest and lent out at interest
again; therefore if the taxes collected by the IRS exactly equalled the
increase in cash in circulation, there would still be a net increase in the
total interest owing on the national debt due to the time lag between
printing/lending and tax collection. And, of course, the taxes never equal
the increase in cash, so the National debt keeps growing and the interest on
it keeps compounding regardless.
Thus, whatever our living standard may be at a given period in time, we
have borrowed incredibly inflated amounts of it from our children and their
children, and they are going to have to cut into *their* living standard to
pay for ours, just as we have to cut into our living standard today to pay
for the living standard our parents' and grandparents' borrowed from our
labor today.
If the national debt and the interest on it gets too big (actually if the
*rate* of increase gets too high) the government begins to find it difficult
to borrow operating capital, and it must raise taxes to slow the *rate* the
national debt is increasing so as to borrow more, since the gov't always
wants more. This hurts everyone, of course, and the economy slows and
begins to stall. If it doesn't slow fast enough, then the fed has to slow
down the printing presses, and perhaps increase the prime lending rate,
thereby reducing the cash in circulation. This slows the *rate* at which
the national debt is growing, but there is *no* *way* the National debt can
ever be reduced: as the economy slows there is less money available to pay
taxes, thus there is less money being taken out of the economy by the IRS
and credited toward the National debt.
Even if the printing presses were stopped completely, and the IRS collected
*all* our cash and credited it toward the National debt, there would still
be the multi-trillion dollars in interest to be paid -- and by law and
practical necessity (there being no more frns then)) it must be paid in
*real* *dollars* of gold and silver, and failing that, it must be paid in
actual wealth: real estate, property, capital equipment, labor, etc.
Now let us contrast this fraudulent paper-backed monetary system with the
self-controlling constitutional monetary standard of gold and silver coin.
For the sake of simplicity, let us restrain ourselves to a discussion of
"monometallism," as of a gold standard, as opposed to "bimetallism" (gold
and silver standard).
Under this system, gov't *cannot* control the "value" of gold, at least not
by any artificial quick-fix means. Printing presses don't magically produce
gold or silver coins. If gov't perceives the need to stimulate the economy
by increasing the cash in circulation, it may still do so, but to do so it
has to *buy* gold on the open market. The price, in U.S. dollars, gov't
will pay for gold on the open market is set by law passed by congress.
congress might say (for example) "Gov't will pay one U.S. dollar for 25.8
grains of gold .9 fine." (Gov't will also set a cap on the total amount of
gold to be purchased, I.E., "Gov't will purchase 5 million U.S. dollars of
gold at the rate of one U.S. dollar for 25.8 grains of gold .9 fine.")
If gold producers are getting a better price than that on the open market,
then obviously they are not going to sell their gold to government. Not
only that, enterprising individuals will be melting down U.S. minted gold
coins and selling the bullion on the open market for more than their face
value. On the other hand, if gov't is offering a better than market price,
then gold producers *will* sell gold to the gov't at that price, and at
least for the duration of the purchase, gov't will dominate the market for
gold.
Obviously, then, to maintain the trading value of the U.S. dollar, gov't
must always be prepared to buy gold at a price higher than the current open
market price, or not buy it at all. This is okay, as will be seen.
A minted gold coin of specified weight and fineness of gold will always be
more acceptable for trading, and therefore more "valuable," than the same
weight and fineness of bullion. This is because the coin is a known
quantity; it requires a minimum of inspection to determine its validity and
legitimacy. Bullion, on the other hand, cannot be accurately assessed
without metallurgical testing, even if stamped with a reliable gold house
name and serial number. These could be easily faked.
Thus, in an economy based upon the gold standard, wealth is measured in
U.S. dollars where the U.S. dollar is a specified weight and fineness of
gold in a minted coin. The open market price of gold in bullion form,
therefore, is a measure of the health of the economy. If the bullion price
of gold exceeds what gov't is paying for it, I.E., If gold bullion of the
same weight and fineness as minted coins will buy more in the marketplace
than minted gold coins will buy, then this is an indication that there are
too many minted gold coins in circulation, and that the economy is going to
be heating up. All gov't need do is not buy any gold and not mint any gold
coins for awhile. The economy will expand until minted gold coins again
become more valuable than bullion. (Also, enough people will be ripped off
by opportunists 'cutting' gold bullion with worthless alloys that coins will
ascend in value simply because they are more trustworthy.)
On the other hand, should the bullion price of gold drop far below what
gov't is paying for it, I.E. If gold bullion of the same weight and fineness
of minted gold coins will buy far less in the marketplace than minted gold
coins, this is an indication that there is not enough gold coins in
circulation and the economy is about to begin stalling. All gov't need do
is buy gold bullion and mint more coins with it.
There are socio-political features of monetary systems, and these may be
compared historically between monetary systems based upon worthless paper
and monetary systems based upon intrinsic value such as gold and/or silver.
From the late 1700's to 1873 the monetary system of the United States was
bimetallic; I.E., specified weights and fineness of both gold and silver
were legal tender by law. In 1873 congress dropped the silver dollar as
money to be coined and made gold the basic monetary metal, and in 1878
congress passed the Bland-Allison act directing gov't to buy silver bullion
each month for coinage and to issue silver dollars and later, silver
certificates. This latter act was repealed in 1893 and in 1900 congress
passed a law declaring that the dollar "shall be the standard unit of
value" and shall consist of 25.8 grains of gold nine-tenths fine.
Between 1800 and 1900, according to "The wonders of the nineteenth century"
by J. W. Hanson, A.W., D.D. (Conkey, 1900), "Never were so many persons
employed at remunerative wages, and never was the condition of the working-
classes so exalted as today. More progress has been made on these lines
since 1800 than during the previous eighteen centuries."
And, one must add, that which was achieved by the working classes was
*owned* by them, and was passed down generation to generation as inherited
wealth and greatly improved living standard. Contrast this with the decades
since the establishment of the Federal Reserve Bank in 1913: as revealed in
the beginning of this article, the only thing passed down from generation to
generation since 1913 has been unrelenting, back-breaking debt owed to the
foreign shareholders of the international corporation known as the Federal
Reserve Bank. This debt is increasing at an astronomical rate daily; it can
*never* be paid off, and yet -- barring economic cataclysmic and resultant
revolution -- our children and their children will be forced to expend
nearly all of their labor in a futile attempt to do so.
As of this writing, however, it appears the economic cataclysm -- if not
the revolution -- is imminent.
-- Archimedes, December 20, 1991
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