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Apollo BBS Archive - December 14, 1991
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Rod..
You look clean on this end. I do not see line noise... but you do
seem to be having some sort of problem.
Re: your pro Fred Smith post as him seeming logical.. Fred Smith is
pro 'land-lord' as a means of wealth. I do not recall this being to your
liking. Have you changed that much? However, I do enjoy Fred's posts and
he seems to carry himself well in the debates.
[R]eread or [C]ontinue:Continue
Mail from James Hawley
Date: 12/16/91 Time: 01:49:57
Sure I've seen you when you weren't stoned. Yellow Page jobs can be
interesting. I just had a sports bar at Metrocenter call me. I went all
the way up there (1am), and one of the bartenders sees the keys (which were
supposedly lost) sitting on a hook in plain sight behind the bar. The
manager wanted a receipt, so I went out to my van and got her one, and a few
cards.
I charged her $30. I feel this was pretty fair, for that time of night. She
demanded one of the cards, saying she was going to call MY boss and see what
was going on. Hahahahaahahaahahahaaa. I told her, "My phone is going to
ring, I'm the boss". But she just sneered at me.
So when my phone rang, she hung up, and ripped my card up and tossed it at
me. Silly people.
[A]bort, [C]ontinue, [I]nsty-reply or [Z]ap:Insty-reply
Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
1:Sounds like an interesting job you described. One A.M., Metrocenter, $30.
2:is more than fair. At least you got paid.
3:
4:So, have you thought about firing yourself or just reprimanding?
*=* Main Menu entered *=*
Main Menu command:JN
*=* Journey to a SIG *=*
*=* X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board entered *=*
X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:$C
Press [A] to abort
Message: 5245
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Answer !
Subject: Fred/prejudice (2/2)
Date: 12/14/91 Time: 23:04:20
An association, lik
X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:RC5244-
Press [A] to abort
Message: 5244
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Answer !
Subject: Fred/prejudice (1/2)
Date: 12/14/91 Time: 23:03:22
There's certainly a difference between saying that a black guy is "probably"
a thief (which implies an assumption that blacks are "usually" thieves), and
the conclusion that the guy *is* a thief, which must inevitably follow from
the belief that *all* blacks are thieves. The difference, obviously, is one
of probability. "Probably" or "usually" means a probability of over 50%.
"Is" or "all" means a probability of 100%. Without consciously intending to
do so, I think I reflected a difference in the types of thinking involved by
the difference in the way I phrased the two statements.
"Probability" is an artificial construct that we need to make informed
decisions, like combining the likelihood that this guy would be seen at the
crime scene with the likelihood that he might have happened to come into
some unexplained money, and other evidence, *if* he didn't do the crime, and
using this data to decide if he's (probably) guilty or not. Probability is
something we process with logical thinking. Probability can be higher or
lower, but it doesn't have to be all or nothing.
Prejudice, though, is based on experience and usually involves a lot of
associative thinking. We look at an old car, and ideas come into our heads
like "old car = unreliable" (because we've seen lots of trouble with old
cars). And if we've heard a lot about black people stealing things, we can
have an association like "black = thief".
Message: 5245
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Answer !
Subject: Fred/prejudice (2/2)
Date: 12/14/91 Time: 23:04:20
An association, like a probability, can be stronger or weaker, but either
it's there or it isn't. I think a problem arises when people rely
exclusively on associations instead of exposing them to the critical faculty
of logic, because the strength of the association isn't necessarily a clear
guide to reality. If somebody's heard a lot about black people stealing
things, and been surrounded by exaggerated statements like "blacks are all a
bunch of thieves" (and people do *say* things like this), they're going to
have a very strong association between the two. When an association is so
strong that notions of theft *always* come to mind when black people are
mentioned, the idea can well exist at some level of the mind that black
people really *are* all thieves. Or at least, the fact that an idea
"always" comes to mind can be thought to imply that it's "always" true.
It isn't, of course, and if that associative idea is exposed to the critical
faculty, it can be seen as a gross exaggeration, and translated into the
proper degree of probability. It's when people refuse to look at their
ideas critically that they often end up acting as if all those unexamined
associations were really true.
Message: 5246
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: Gordon...
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 08:19:39
Gordon > "old car = unreliable"....
Grrr, those are 'fighting' word Mr. Little... Wanna RACE my old
'unreliable' car? Quarter Mile?
From my way of thinking, Cars in the 60's are more reliable.. Humph!
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 5247
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: Cliff
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 12:44:34
Well, my whole argument is about the danger of relying on prejudiced
opinions!
Re cars, I have been pleased with my '82 Capri though. It's been extremely
reliable. Not that I can say the same about a friend of mine who bought one
of the first Cavaliers back about the same time...
X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:EC
You chose Cosmos-Chatter
Subject:CARS
Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
1:Automobiles have hurt this world so much that it'll take 1000 year just to
2:shake the shit off.
3:end
Edit command:S
Saving message...
The message is 5248
X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:JN
*=* Journey to a SIG *=*
*=* Public Bulletin Board entered *=*
Public Bulletin Board command:$C
Press [A] to abort
Message: 80525
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Question?
Subject: Funky Log
Date: 12/13/91 Time: 19:14:50
Did Funky Alf attempt some speed log ons?
Message: 80526
Author: James Matlock
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Fred/gold
Date: 12/13/91 Time: 21:29:00
I haven't been reading $Archimedes' posts, but I have read yours and so
have been able to follow the essence of the continuing debate over a gold
standard. I still don't understand what would force the world governments
(who hold almost all of the (mined) world gold supply) or the handful of
collectors (who hold most of the rest) to exchange their gold for what would
become worthless pieces of paper under a gold standard. And what happens
to all the rest of the population? Do they starve, cease making car and
house payments, and in general, consume neither goods nor services, because
they have little or no gold? Even if the government opened an exchange at
the doors of Fort Knox ( Does the government suddenly redistribute all its
gold, leaving itself in penury?) there wouldn't be a millionth of the
required amount of gold to exchange for all the frns in this country, much
less all the frns in other countries, unless the government artificially and
drastically raised the price of gold (to a few million dollar per ounce?),
and who would be stupid enough to buy gold at such a price, relative to its
world market price? Or does the government prevent free trade in order to
maintain its hyper-inflated rates? Do we all carry around tweezers and a
micro-scale in order to pay ours debts? Would anyone who owned a gold
bracelet suddenly become a rich man? What happens when we want to buy
products from other countries? Do we kiss our gold goodbye? Or does the
government outlaw imports? Are the world banking system and the rest of the
world going to up and convert to a gold standard? The concept is ludicrous,
(as you recognise). (CONT).
Message: 80527
Author: James Matlock
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Fred/(cont.)
Date: 12/13/91 Time: 21:42:46
What if we choose to use our frns to buy goods from other countries which
still honor them, for whatever reason, but particularly if they can buy
more from those countries as frns than their gold exchange equivalents can
buy in this one? Does the government outlaw this? What happens when all of
the smart, rich people, the big businesses and individuals who operate on a
global scale, decide to move their operations elsewhere? Does the
government outlaw this? What about (as you mentioned) electronic wealth
which exists as numbers in a computer in a bank somewhere (not necessarily
in the U.S.) ? Is this legally redefined in terms of its artificial "gold
value"? What does this do to international banking? Who would put up with
this?
Someone recently mentioned tilting at windmills. But proposals for a gold
standard make Don Quixote look like wisdom incarnate.
Message: 80529
Author: James Matlock
Category: In search of
Subject: alias derivations
Date: 12/13/91 Time: 23:41:08
Well, we have eliminated as possible inspirations the extinct colonial
animal, and the principle of fluid mechanics related to the famous
gold crown legend. What else is left?
There's a screw by the same name used to raise water, but it seems
unlikely that he's a prison guard who assists charitable drought-relief
programs.
The historical Archimedes is reported to have said, "Give me a place
to stand on and I will move the Earth," which, given the amount of leverage
required, would necessitate a pretty far-out position; this is entirely
consistent.
Message: 80531
Author: $ Funky Alf
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Snoopy
Date: 12/14/91 Time: 05:22:44
To $ Paul Savage:
Thanks for the reply Paul, I noticed your message posted time is
05:41:00AM, did you see any Phoenix FOG? < or perhaps SMOG?
To $ Bill Burkett:
Thanks for the reply Bill, why does it seem my messages always get
buried by Archi-Medes messages? I know, he's got a lot to say and is
trying to plug his "America...Occupied!" book.
To Melissa Dee, it wasn't speed logons I was doing, I was trying to make
the "Twi-light Zone" message and SIG appear, it didn't work.
Rod Williams, are you going to start taking anti-depressant pills like
Archi-Medes suggested?
Funky ALF
Message: 80532
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bill/hate
Date: 12/14/91 Time: 05:54:07
Why do you so hate to agree with me, Bill? Don't you realize that hate is
one of themost self-destructive emotions that we as humans can feel? The
object of your hate probably couldn't care less, or doesn't even feel your
hate, while all the time you are being consumed with it.
Rid yourself of that load of garbage, Bill! Learn to love me, even if it's
hard to do! I'm not all THAT bad! Really!
Message: 80533
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Fred/one more time
Date: 12/14/91 Time: 05
Public Bulletin Board command:EC
You chose Chit Chat
Subject:Funky Alf/pills
Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
1:I guess there are pills for everything and what I like to do is mix them all
2:up into one capsule. I take uppers and mix them with downers then add a
3:'sideway' pill then a muscle relaxent and a muscle tightener and a few other
4:chemicals including the lubricant from condoms. Ah, it's great. Now I am
5:going out and commit suicide....don't try to talk me out of it because I am
6:determined to die this time. But, not to worry cause I'll be back in three
7:days.
8: Love Rod
9:end
Edit command:S
Saving message...
The message is 80568
Public Bulletin Board command:$RC
Press [A] to abort
Message: 80533
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Fred/one more time
Date: 12/14/91 Time: 05:59:20
I said in my last post on this subject that, according to the definition of
opinions that you presented, I, along with everyone else, do indeed make
judgements. I judge artichokes, for example, to be unfit for human
consumption. So there.
Message: 80534
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Hate Paul
Date: 12/14/91 Time: 08:08:48
Oh, Paul. I don't really hate you. I just can't bring myself to like you
much. :)
Message: 80535
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Buried Alf
Date: 12/14/91 Time: 08:09:20
> why does it seem my messages always get buried by Archi-Medes
> messages?
Just quantity, I think. What's it matter? You got responses from the two
of us who really matter, Paul and me. Well, me anyway...
Message: 80536
Author: James Matlock
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: tungsten/elasticity
Date: 12/14/91 Time: 22:19:00
"Tungsten wire produced by the early processes often possessed satisfactory
physical properties, but was ductile only at high temperatures and could
not be cold worked. By starting with tungsten powder of high purity,
further elimination of impurities during processing, then maintaining a
suitable grain structure by heat treatment and mechanical working, [W.D.]
Collidge [who took out his first patent in 1909] succeeded in producing
tungsten wire that was ductile at room temperature."
-- from _Tungsten_ (American Chemical Society Monograph No. 94, Third
Edition, 1955)
There we go.
I also note that tungsten alloys with platinum, iridium, and osmium, any of
which would only need to be present in trace amounts in order to make up the
.02 grams per cubic centimeter difference in relative density between
tungsten and gold, assuming that such a difference would fall outside the
tolerances to be expected of worn coins, and assuming that scales would
be calibrated to this accuracy.
Message: 80537
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Hateful Bill
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 05:47:16
Your value judgements based solely on the words you see on this BBS have a
very y thin and unrealistic base, my friend. You have never met me, don't
even have a clue as to who or what I am, with the very dubious exception of
statements I have made here. I would certainly not wish to make friends (or
enemies) on such a foundation.
By the way, do you only smile in a prone position? Judging from the :), I
would say that you typed that from your bed. (smile)
Message: 80538
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: War!
Subject: BILL!!! (80535)
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 05:48:03
I MATTER!
Message: 80539
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: War!
Subject: Oh, Paul!
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 06:41:04
> You have never met me...
Actually we have met.
> By the way, do you only smile in a prone position? Judging from
> the :), I would say that you typed that from your bed. (smile)
Of course. How else do you expect me to stay warm on these chilly mornings?
Message: 80540
Author: $ Bill Burkett
Category: War!
Subject: Paul-TOE JAM!
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 06:41:25
> I MATTER!
BELLY BUTTON LINT!
(Oh, all right. You matter, Paul. Sheesh. Some people are so touchy this
time of year...)
Message: 80541
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Vote
Subject: New Vote
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 10:13:33
On...trees..... the Christmas type that one places in his/her home
at this time of year. Some may not call them Christmas trees if they are
not Christians, and I have tried to word it to make that allowance.
Remember...ALL VOTE answers are PRIVATE... I can't tell who voted
for what.... even if I am at the monitor watching. The Vote is GREEKED at
my end just like PRIVATE mail in the [P]ost office. SO PLEASE take the few
seconds to answer the [V]ote poll in the [M]ain menu. This is ONLY for
$tatus members.
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 80542
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Politics
Subject: Conspiracy defined
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 16:32:50
BB> Well, Archimedes, after several months of listening to and studying
BB> your posts, I have to confess I'm no closer to having faith in the
BB> conspiracy theories you propose than I was.
Perhaps, like someone else on this board -- was it Fred Smith? -- you are
confused as to the meaning of "conspiracy." To agree with the conspiracy
theory, at least on a basic level, it is only necessary to agree with three
statements: 1. The monetary standard of intrinsic value established by the
framers of the Constitution was honest -- not necessarily good, or bad, just
simply "honest." 2. The current monetary standard -- or lack of a monetary
standard, take your pick -- is patently and flagrantly fraudulent and
deprives the wage-earning segment of the public of their labor and their
political clout. 3. Two people or more conspired knowingly and
intentionally to deprive us of our previous honest monetary standard and to
replace it with our current fraudulent monetary standard.
If you agree with those three statements, then you agree there was a
conspiracy. If you do not agree with all three, then perhaps it will be
productive to discuss the statement or statements with which you disagree.
Could you elaborate on this point?
Message: 80543
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Politics
Subject: Leap of Faith
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 16:34:09
BB> "Occupied!" spends a great deal of time documenting many minor points
BB> which lead to a "so you can easily see" statement of conclusion which,
BB> in fact, requires a great leap of faith to see.
Okay. That is a perceptual position; the points you consider "minor" are
not minor to me; they led to the current fraudulent economic system. I
don't consider it "minor" when a man named John Maynard Keynes stands up and
describes how to rip off a nation "in a manner not one man in a million can
detect", and the economic system he describes is the economic system we now
endure, and the economic system we now endure is called, by its adherents
and detractors alike, "Keynesian Economics." That doesn't require a "leap
of faith" to me, but then perhaps Keynes was wrong: perhaps one man in a
million *can* detect it.
BB> I don't, however, consider the matter closed. You may one day expose
BB> that one piece of the puzzle that makes your whole theory fall into
BB> place for me. Until then, though, sorry.
Thank you, and no need to apologize. It doesn't matter whether *I* expose
that one piece of the puzzle to you or not; it will be exposed to you
eventually under circumstances you (all of us!) will find highly
objectionable. And probably sooner rather than later. I'm just trying to
explain who will do what to whom and who will get paid.
Message: 80544
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Politics
Subject: Getting enough?
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 16:35:31
BB> I'd still contend, though, that we're paying more AND getting more.
BB> Whether we're getting ENOUGH more to justify the greater amounts we're
BB> paying is, I think, a subjective matter.
Well, not really, for two reasons: The first is that if you study the
subject long enough you can make mathematical computations which prove,
fairly objectively, that current costs are not justified by what we're
getting. The second reason is that like most people, you are only seeing
the immediate here and now situation.
Example: I just heard in a government propaganda report that the Cost of
Living inflation rate was only (Gee Whiz!) two and a half percent for the
last year. Isn't that swell? What that report fails to mention is that the
Cost of Living inflation rate for the last year was somewhere between one
hundred and five hundred times that. You didn't see that kind of increase,
though, because it was deferred into the national debt and the interest on
the national debt. Our children are going to pay it with the higher prices
they have to pay for *their* Cost of Living.
What you fail to see is the 1750% increase in the Cost of Living since 1945.
Most of the inflated costs you and I pay now for our Cost of Living is the
interest on the national debt our parents ran up under this fraudulent
monetary system.
Message: 80545
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Politics
Subject: Barter Economy
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 16:36:48
FS> DO you *really* think a barter economy is workable on any sort of large
FS> scale?? Even primitive tribes evolved the use of money when they
FS> achieved any sort of "size" as barter is simply not a workable system
FS> for "normal" business purposes on any wide scale.
I thought for a moment you were trying to change the subject again, but then
I realized you must be responding to my post about establishing a "barter
community" to help buffer the effects of the major crash when it comes. And
no, as should be obvious from that post, I was not advocating a "barter
economy" on any sort of a large scale. I was advocating it on a small,
community-sized scale for the purpose of mitigating the damaging effects of
the crash of our fraudulent monetary system.
I find it amusing that you can throw historical precedents at me like "Even
primitive tribes evolved the use of money when they achieved any sort of
size", and yet totally ignore the fact that as those primitive tribes
evolved they also discovered nothing was worth a damn as "money" over the
long term but gold and silver coin.
Message: 80546
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Politics
Subject: Late 1800/1900 1/2
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 16:38:16
FS> Are you seriouly suggesting that in the late 1800's and early 1900"s
FS> when there was no such thing as rapid, countrywide travel, decent
FS> houseing, many many jobs at the level of sweatshop, limited medical
FS> care, limited educational opportunities, and on and on, that you can't
FS> see that the standard of living OFF the gold standard has gone up more
FS> or less steadily, indicating that MORE of us share in the TOTAL wealth
FS> of the nation.
Oh, good heavens, Fred! You have the most shortsighted view of history I've
ever encountered. Do you mean to seriously suggest that the very specific
things you've mentioned in the above paragraph were magically corrected, to
everyone's enormous benefit, in 1934 with the removal of the gold standard?
Or even in 1913, with the flagrantly illegal establishment of the FED, whose
plan it was to deprive us of both our wealth *and* our self-government?
Every single thing you mention in the above paragraph was being improved or
corrected as technology progressed long before 1913 under an economic system
based upon gold and silver coin. The first distinctively American steam
locomotive was developed by 1850 and rapid (for the time) countrywide travel
was well established by the turn of the century. I don't know your
definition of "decent housing," but the construction trades were well
established long before the turn of the century.
Message: 80547
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Politics
Subject: Late 1800/1900 2/2
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 16:39:39
Sure, many jobs were "sweatshop" jobs, but at least people *had* jobs --
after the FED moved in and got control of the economy, one hell of a lot of
people found themselves without jobs *or* housing! Today, sweatshops are
illegal, and people without the skills or work habits to get any other kind
of a job expect the rest of us to support them. Limited medical care?
There were more improvements in the medical arts in the 100 years prior to
1913 than since -- that's when most of the principles and inventions upon
which our *modern* medical care is based were established! Limited
educational opportunities? Those people who chose to be educated prior to
1913 received one heck of a lot better education than 99% of the schoolkids
today -- and on less money and with a better understanding of our
Constitutional Republic and its principle of *limited* government. Today
most high school graduates -- heck, most *university* graduates! -- are
functionally illiterate!
FS> In a nutshell, you don't need to look at "documentation" to see what is
FS> obvious to the unaided eye.
Perhaps you have a mote in your unaided eye. Perhaps you should wash it out
and have a closer look at history. It's obvious that what you think is
obvious is not supported by the facts. But then, perhaps you've always
believed the government line of propaganda in the government school system
-- that supposedly 'unlimited' educational opportunity.
Message: 80548
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Politics
Subject: Gold circulation
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 16:41:27
FS> Perhaps you can explain how a wealthy man has to put gold into
FS> circulation if his Wealth is a big apartment building and he collects
FS> rent from the tenents every month sufficent to pay for all he needs?
Under a bimetallic standard, if he has to "pay for all he needs" then he
has to pay in minted gold or silver coins, just as his tenants have to pay
their rent in minted gold or silver coins. What's so difficult to
understand?
Of course he also has to pay taxes on that income, since that income is
indeed "income" -- i.e., profit. His tenants, on the other hand, who may
earn their living by wage rather than subsisting on profit, are secure from
having to pay taxes upon their cash flow. Thus they have as much economic
clout, are as much of the "economic elite," as you put it, as he is. Thus
he has to regard them as "customers" upon whom his livelihood depends,
rather than treating them as mere trash whom he is deigning to favor with
shelter.
Does that offend your elitist sense of order?
Message: 80549
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Politics
Subject: "Rule Book"
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 16:42:50
FS> The thing you left out though is that while most all of us (Archimedes
FS> excepted) "believe" in the "rule book" for speed limits, ...
Please be good enough to not put beliefs in my keyboard. Note that I drive
professionally (a passenger car, and not a taxi) and that I have nearly
200,000 miles accrued in Maricopa County in the last four years without a
ticket or traffic accident, driven among the highest percentage of
aggressively incompetent and unqualified clowns that ever slid behind a
wheel. I think I am qualified to judge both the validity of the so-called
"rule book" and, by virtue of my separate study of the history of law,
qualified to judge the extent that rule book will be allowed to abuse my
inherited and unalienable rights.
In short, I believe in the "rule book." I just don't believe it should be
applied according to the rules of equity, where inherited and unalienable
rights do not stand as a bulwark against gov't oppression. I am therefore
prepared to prevent its use as an equity tool of oppression if necessary.
[I am also opposed to latter-day lay Biblical interpretations being used to
control or manipulate others of different beliefs. Those others will be
accountable for what they do, but not to me.]
But this is not to interfere or put my two cents worth in to your religious
discussion with someone else. Please continue as you wish.
Message: 80550
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Politics
Subject: Compounding evil
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 16:44:30
FS> I don't know of anyone who is stashing FRNs under their mattress in the
FS> deluded belief that they are putting something valuble under there.
I do, and like you, I regard them as fools. I know others who keep them in
banks and let others, including gov't, violate their inherited and
unalienable rights to their own property and privacy with impunity, and I
regard them also as fools. I know others who, having established a minimum
cache of survival equipment and training, convert them to gold and silver
coin as a hedge against economic collapse. These people I regard as pretty
smart and learning more all the time.
FS> In todays USA it is EVERY easy to use virtually NO FRNs - you can pay
FS> everything by check or charge card thereby completely eliminating all
FS> connection with FRNs.
Oh. Right. You take all the bankster gov't's usury and corruption
represented by the worthless frn, which causes you to owe more than you have
by simply being in possession of them and trading with them, and you
compound that usury and corruption a million-fold by using checks and credit
cards denominated in "dollars" but actually representing
compounding-interest debt in frns. Real bright, Fred.
Message: 80551
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Politics
Subject: Stuffing frns
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 16:45:52
FS> Instead of stuffing FRNs under the mattress you just let you electronic
FS> *money* accumulate in the bank on their ledgers.
Sorry. I'd rather let *real* money accumulate on *my* ledger and in *my*
stash. Why should I let a bank use it and thereby waive all my Fifth
Amendment right to privacy in my financial affairs and endeavours? (And,
incidentally, waive all right to ownership of that real money if some gov't
lackey decides I'm not using it for some gov't-approved purpose?) Why
should I do that, Fred? Why would *anyone* who is not the village idiot, do
that?
You like putting your worthless frns in the bank so much, Fred, go down and
withdraw about ten thousand of them and then fly across country, to say, New
York and back with them in your pocket or in your luggage. I would suggest
you have about a 50-50 chance of having your money confiscated by the law
before you get back. You have a greater chance of being mugged by so-called
representatives of the law than you do by a Harlem carpet rodent. I *know*
you won't be allowed to leave the bank with your money without being
required to fill out an IRS form justifying your withdrawal of it and
stating your intended use for it.
Like I said: What kind of village idiot does someone have to be to
voluntarily allow themselves to be in that position?
Message: 80552
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Politics
Subject: Easier
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 16:47:06
FS> And to look at it from another standpoint, wouldn't it be EASIER for
FS> people to just forget about FRNs having ANY intrinsic value then to try
FS> and use GOLD COINS which would be an impossible situation.
Lots of things are easier in life than standing up for principle. It's
easier to be a slave to the banksters; it's easier to enjoy the tranquillity
of servitude than to engage in the animating contest of freedom; it's easier
to let gov't (representing the banksters) to run your life than it is to
require gov't to live up to the requirements of the U.S. Constitution and
thereby fulfill the one, single, exclusive purpose of gov't: to protect the
inherited and unalienable rights of the people.
Besides, I don't see anything "impossible" about the "situation" of gov't
obeying Constitutional law. I think it would be a great improvement.
FS> As far as I can see, the only way your system could really work would
FS> be for GOLD coins to be THE units of exchange and for the gvt to be
FS> completely disconnected with any valuatin placed on them.
You're getting close. Make that "Gold and Silver Coins" and you have a
Constitutional monetary standard like the one stolen from us which "really
work"ed for 120 years. I'm glad you are finally beginning to see the value
of what I've been saying.
Message: 80553
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Politics
Subject: Almost got it...
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 16:48:12
FS> If you allow the gvt to involve itself in setting the value of GOLD
FS> then you have not really changed much of anything.
You are almost there, Fred. You've almost acquired the truth. One more
minor little point, which is nonetheless crucial, and you will have it
nailed down and we will be in agreement. The point is this: When gov't
passed laws defining the "dollar" as 371.25 grains of Silver .9 fine, and as
25.8 grains of Gold .9 fine, gov't did *not* "set the value" of gold or
silver. Government merely tied the VALUE of the DOLLAR to GOLD and to
SILVER.
The VALUE of gold and silver is still determined in the marketplace. And
the dollar, tied to the value of gold and silver in the marketplace, follows
suit. And since, in the marketplace, gold and silver remains -- has ALWAYS
REMAINED -- stable in terms of its purchasing power both here and overseas,
the DOLLAR remains stable.
Message: 80554
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Politics
Subject: FORCING gov't...
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 16:49:15
FS> Again, you entire argument revolves around somehow FORCING the gvt to
FS> do something and preventing them from ever UNDOING it.
Well, that *was* and *is* the function of the U.S. Constitution. It created
gov't, and it conveyed certain limited powers to gov't, and it prohibited
gov't from exercising powers not conveyed. It's just that we, the people,
have been lax in demanding specific performance from gov't.
FS> IN reagard to a GOLD standard, even that would only work if we were
FS> isolationists.
I think it's great the way the penny is finally beginning to drop for you.
The framers of the Constitution clearly intended that the gov't created by
it should "resist foreign entanglements." Being "isolationists" doesn't
mean we don't trade with other countries. It just means we stay the hell
out of their problems and don't give away the store to bail them out.
Message: 80555
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Politics
Subject: Mano-a-mano
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 16:50:37
FS> I'd like to see you feed cattle with your "knowledge" or sleep inside
FS> your "skills" or cross a creek with your "education" instead of a
FS> bridge.
Okay! Sounds like fun! You want to arrange an expedition into the desert
or into mountain country or into snow country, each of us equipped with
nothing but a Bowie knife, with the objectives of 1. feeding a herd of
cattle; 2. providing shelter and food and water for ourselves, and 3.
crossing a creek -- better yet, how about a major river? -- to reach an
objective, and see which one of us comes out alive and with our objectives
met? You with your apartment building and the land it's sitting on, or I
with my "knowledge" and "skills" and "education"?
FS> It seems that you get fa*ther and farther removed from reality with
FS> your theories.
If you think your apartment building and land and perceived "wealth" is
going to help you in the slightest in a fair contest mano-a-mano against
knowledge and skills and education, Fred, then it is not I who is getting
farther and farther removed from reality. [And if you use your so-called
"wealth" to arrange a helicopter to haul you out, I'll bring it down and
leave the wreckage for future generations of backpackers to ponder over.]
Message: 80556
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Politics
Subject: Joining the enemy
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 16:51:40
FS> ... they tend to not be among the economically elite. That is not a
FS> condemnation of their ideas but it indicates to me that they are NOT
FS> able to understand how things are REALLY working around them. [and]
FS> ... instead of acquiring some wealth and gaining a position of power in
FS> order to actaully CHANGE the system.
Right, Fred. The town has been taken over by a gang of thieves and bunko
artists who are stripping the citizens of their wealth produced by their
industry and labor, and if I want to restore the town to its rightful and
Constitutional status of a town "of law and not of men" then I should become
one of those thieves and bunko artists until I gain enough of the
townspeople's wealth to change the system back to what it is supposed to be.
That's as stupid and counter-productive as the idea of borrowing one's self
out of debt.
Message: 80557
Author: $ Archi Medes
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Plugging...
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 16:52:33
FA> I know, he's got a lot to say and is trying to plug his "America...
FA> Occupied!" book.
Sorry if my posts have been "burying" yours, but I wanted to correct your
impression that I am trying to "plug" America...Occupied: I am not, because
it will probably never be a book. Just about the time I got around to
writing that rough draft, Don McElvaney published his final draft and a
couple of other authors did also. Mine was a day late and a dollar short.
No big deal; I wasn't doing it for the money anyway. I was doing it because
no one else seemed to have done a general overview of the myriad of scams
perpetrated upon us and how they all fit together, and it needed to be done.
Message: 80558
Author: $ Green Lantern
Category: Politics
Subject: Democrat Debate
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 18:29:30
I watched the 90 minute debate between the Democrat candidates. Kerrey
impressed me the most. Clinton impressed me the least.
Message: 80559
Author: $ Fred Smith
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Green/SOmething
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 19:24:09
RE: Standardizing to work hours
Sure but I still see the same thing - Back "then" many
people worked 60+ hours a week and lived at near poverty
levels, by todays standards. They often lived 3 generations
to a home and had only one car, no tv, just a radio, a small
icebox, one suit of clothes. Today, for 40 hours of work
the average person has far more "stuff". I'll agree that
many people's priorities have changed and the "stuff" may
not be what some think worthwhile to lust after but that is
not what is the concern of this discussion. In terms of
what we get in exchange for an equal amount of work, I think
we clearly get MORE today.
Message: 80560
Author: $ Fred Smith
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Matlock/Something
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 19:24:47
You hit the nail on the head with the question of "does the
gvt prevent free trade?" That and all those other problems
mentioned will occur under a gold standard UNLESS the US
reverts to isolationism. The gold standard of old worked
only because communication was slow, the average person
didn't know what was going on, and we were fairly
isolationist. The only way a gold standard can work today
is with a NEW WORLD ORDER.
Message: 80561
Author: $ Fred Smith
Category: Answer!
Subject: ARch 1/5
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 19:25:40
Lets return to reality. Gold and silver have NOT been
the medium of exchange that was historically the most used
system. As I mentioned before, Tobbacco had a longer run
then gold and silver. And there simply is no way there is
enough gold and silver to use it as currency not to mention
all the problems there would be even if there was enough of
it (counting, wieghing, sorting, etc.) It still seems to me
(broken record alert) that you are attacking the medium of
exchange system when that is NOT the thing that is the
problem. The problem remains out of control gvt. I don't
recall which economist it was but he made the point that
when we have inflation we want a stable currency (which
seems to be your permanent position) and when we have a
stable non-inflationary economy (stagnant, like now) we want
monetary inflation. As I realize, and surely you must too,
we will not soon be comming to any consenses, not even
economists can agree, and I think most of them have a better
understanding of it all then either of us and yet they can't
even come to consensus.
Message: 80562
Author: $ Fred Smith
Category: Answer!
Subject: Arch 2/5
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 19:26:22
Why does anyone have to pay in bimetalic or whatever the
hell you all it, gold and silver?? WHy can't the tenants
write him a check which he will deposit and then he will pay
his bills by check. I really see no reason at all why
anyone, except fools and crooks, would be bothering with
gold and silver coins, given all the attendent problems with
them, when they could use checks and "plastic". I see NO
reason why ANYONE would have to use a gold currency UNLESS
the gvt outlaws the use of checks, plastic, and the like.
Is THAT what you are proposeing???? When are you going to
notice that 1991 is NOT 1913 or 1933. The problem is NOT
the monetary system, it is the GVT!!! You can't fix the
monetary system without fixing the gvt. And if you fix the
gvt the monetary system becomes a moot point anyways.
Message: 80563
Author: $ Fred Smith
Category: Answer!
Subject: Arch 3/5
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 19:27:02
Oh dear. So we are into the survialists with there cache of
gold and silver to use when the economic holocoust arrives. Given
that very very few people will have any gold or silver to use what
makes you think it will be the "currency" of choice?? And the idea
that the important thing to be prepared for in an economic
holocaust is to have some gold on hand seems to be missing the
boat. There will be far far more problems to contend with then
what to use as currency. As you may have heard, you can't eat
gold, or fill you tank with it, etc. The most likely scenario I
expect would be that your gold supply would VERY quickly be used up
if you tried to get by with any "affordable" cache since the farmer
will expect to get something more then a fingernail clipping of
gold when you buy from him. I'd be suprised if the average
survivalist gold supply lasted more then a week or two assuming he
could even find someone who would take it. Another thing you
totally ignore is that in this economic holocaust there would be NO
ONE setting the value of your gold - no one would know what it is
worth. And whatever it was worth to citizen A it might only be
worth a tenth of that to citizen B. Tell me, when the holocaust
comes, how many ounces of gold will it take to pay for a pound of
butter??? And I hope you aren't going to base your answer on how
many FRNs it takes now!!!
Message: 80564
Author: $ Fred Smith
Category: Answer!
Subject: Arch 4/5
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 19:27:47
The gvt cannot be both completely removed from control of
the value of currency and also be the one who sets it's
value thru the constitution. EIther the money supply is
DIVORCED from gvt control or it is not. I'm suprised you
are pushing a halfway measure and one that would not last 2
years. This is NOT the early 1900's!!! THings have
changed, the world has changed.
And in terms of the gvt not setting the value of GOLD
but merely setting the value of the dollar in terms of gold,
that is only possible if the supply of BOTH FRNs *and* GOLD
is fixed and unchangable and it STILL depends on GVT
control. That is PRECISELY why the gold standard fell. The
fictional balance between the value of dollars and gold
could no longer be maintained - Times they were a-changin.
Message: 80565
Author: $ Fred Smith
Category: Answer!
Subject: Arch 5/5
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 19:28:16
On what basis do you claim that gold has remained "stable"
in it's purchasing power?? I don't know anyone who has
purchased anything with gold in quite a while so how do you
make that determination?
Message: 80566
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Fixing the gvt...???
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 20:35:32
Back when I was a kid, my dad had stacks of Japanese money. Most of
it in un-opened wrapped bundles. I mean loads of it, he gave me bundles to
take to school and GIVE out. This WAS a medium of exchange, however, the
gvt as you might say got 'fixed' and it was all worthless. Had it been
silver or gold, it would have value. Had it not had all that writting on it
it could have been used for note paper.... but, it was totaly worthless.
Just like our dollars would be worthless if we fixed this government, or it
fell from power, or we get absorbed into a one world government.
A medium of exchange is only as good as the government when that
medium has no real value. I feel we have been shafted by our gvt. If you
save your hard earned frns you have earned today for tomorrow when you
retire, they will buy FAR LESS. I will choose to save my $$ in another
form.. Thank you!
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
P.S. I don't see where Gold has gone 'UP' in value, I see where the 'green
back' has gone 'down'. Why would anyone in their right mind want to save
FRNS?????
Message: 80567
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Fred's butter...
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 20:45:45
How many FRNS will it take to buy this butter? FRNS don'r even
burn clean, but could be used for heating your hands for a few minutes over
an open pit fire. At least gold is a valued mineral, and when it really
gets down to it... almost everyone will accept it. I WILL and HAVE!
There, you now know someone!
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
Message: 80568
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Funky Alf/pills
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 20:56:31
I guess there are pills for everything and what I like to do is mix them all
up into one capsule. I take uppers and mix them with downers then add a
'sideway' pill then a muscle relaxent and a muscle tightener and a few other
chemicals including the lubricant from condoms. Ah, it's great. Now I am
going out and commit suicide....don't try to talk me out of it because I am
determined to die this time. But, not to worry cause I'll be back in three
days.
Love Rod
Public Bulletin Board command:EC
You chose Chit Chat
Subject:Modem trouble
Enter a line containing only an [*] to stop
1:I have been getting a lot of line noise of late and I've just traced it to
2:my modem. I am only on this trip to do a test.....testing, testing.
3:
4:I will make my comments later.
5:
6: Rod
7:end
Edit command:S
Saving message...
The message is 80569
Public Bulletin Board command:R80569
Message: 80569
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Modem trouble
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 21:03:33
I have been getting a lot of line noise of late and I've just traced it to
my modem. I am only on this trip to do a test.....testing, testing.
I will make my comments later.
Rod
Message: 80571
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Archemedes
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 22:58:15
I read your answer to me, found it interesting and found you interesting.
It sounds like you want someone to be a gun toting revolutionary, going out
and shooting anyone who remotely reseMlbles the establishment.
Starting in January the AZ for NORML organization will be meeting at
Metropophobobia, 128 E. Taylor, Phoenix. The second Saturday of each month
will be set aside at the bookstore for those meetings. Two P.M. starting
time.
I plan on attending in order to see what their exact wants are and then I
will decide whether to join them. I have been looking for a group to get
involved in and it looks like it is the performing arts people in downtown
Phoenix.
Songs are being written, buttons, shirts and refrigerator magnets are being
produced, to name a few. It's a growing industry.
A lot of us joke about death so you have got a false reading with me. I
think it is a joke. I don't go around with my head hung low, threatening
suicide.....not at all. But then again, I mention it because I perceive it
(the thought if it) as a rather large mental block which keeps people back
from better life. Nothing is in dying. It'll probably be the funnest thing
you'll do in this life. Gold is yucky. Who needs it?
Message: 80572
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Question?
Subject: Rod on Archemedes
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 23:22:48
Where does Archemedes mention about shooting ANYONE? Show me the
post please!
However Rod, he has you pegged... You have been nothing but negative
for all the years I have known you. You now are in denial of this and claim
you were 'joking' ??? Maybe you should learn when to joke and when to be
serious and help solve the problems rather then hoping someone else will do
it for you.
If you truly want to help, listen in and let's hear your REAL
ideas... and 'can' the jokes. I know you can do it.
*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SysOp *=* <-clif-
P.S. If you need the outlet, I can give you a JOKe SIG.
Message: 80573
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Fred Smith
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 23:28:26
I've been reading your messages oThey seems logical to me
My line noise is back again so I'd better do some more tracing.
I just got on again because I've been reading Fred Smith messages off line
anddecided I'd better comment.
Message: 80574
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Answer!
Subject: Cliff/Shooting
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 23:56:28
Read 80555 -- he talks about "taking down" a helicopter which would contain
Fred (or somebody flying in to pick up Fred).
Message: 80575
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Beau
Date: 12/16/91 Time: 02:16:35
Thanks.
Message: 80576
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Answer!
Subject: Archemedes (1-5)
Date: 12/16/91 Time: 02:17:21
Suppose a giant economic collapse occurred right now, hypothetically
speaking of course. Say that John has saved 50 ounces of gold and
Steve has saved 25,000 dollars in FRNs, under the mattress. Bob didn't
save a damn thing. All he had was his last pay stub.
What may happen to these men and their families and how their lives
will cause an effect that will be felt by all will be dealt with? Who
will survive and who will die? Will it be fun? Many questions will we
have. Where to find a cow to kill to get a hunk of its flesh will
perhaps be asked? Who brought the matches?
Will there be order after a large scale economic collapse? If so
then the scenario will take a different course than if there is panic
and chaos among the masses.
John, depending upon John's character and the way the collapse happens
would have to work at making his gold save him from the harshness of
being homeless and depending upon St. Vincent dePaul's Dining Room for
food. Or living in a wilderness area and trying to make a go of
survival. It would depends also on John's social rank. I guess one
would have to have guns in order to protect that gold. Try to buy an
island with a full stocked Circle K on it, I suppose.
Message: 80577
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Answer!
Subject: Archemedes (2 of 5)
Date: 12/16/91 Time: 02:18:05
Buy a lot of food? Start a garden? I don't think I would want to be
stuck with a lot of gold. Gold, on one level may be better for
bartering than hog butts until we can get something going, something
that we agree upon that is workable for the survival of the flesh
eating animals. Something equitable, something fun. But if a social
order were devised that was altruistic in nature then gold or any
precious metal would not figure into the system except for the
aforementioned plating of wire or the drilling of hard surfaces and
use in science and manufacturing.
I thought that tribes of old, when gold was present in their
environment, used it for artsy works that were pretty, even beautiful
to behold and in that lay the value. Anything that was beautiful was
desired by the masses although I suppose the tribe shared the beauty.
It was probably the neighboring tribe that sought to own it. Gold did
become valuable in that sense. Some tribes killed other tribes for
it, like what the Spanish soldiers and monks did to the people of the
western hemisphere as one example.
The guy with the FRNs may do well, again depending just how it goes
down. If slowly, then people will give value to them but inflation or
deflation will occur, probably both....depending on the item. We have
been trained to give value to the paper, we've been raised with it.
Message: 80578
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Answer!
Subject: 3 of 5
Date: 12/16/91 Time: 02:18:46
I'm an atheist but I still occasionally refer to our upcoming solstice
season as Christmas. I was born with it. I still get cravings for
bacon and eggs, milk, cheese and partly cooked flesh.
As I hoped I pointed out before, I don't care what this 'made-up
thing' we call money is backed by. It doesn't matter. All that
matters is that we have a good society and until humankind (oxymoron?)
learns some real truths about ourselves we are going to stay mired in
the mud. If your revolution succeeded and your people took the places
of the big politicians and the lawmakers then someone would start a
revolution against you because you'd do the same damn thing, start
stealing from the people because now you are in a position to.
There's always a conspiracy from the different sides. All men in this
time are corruptible because it is the nature of the animal. Living
lofty ideas is different than just stating them.
I want to join the thinkers, the people like Carl Sagan, Ted Turner
and others who see this earth as a small space ship that a lot of
different things share. Gold, blah.
Now Bob, who doesn't have a farthing may have an easier time of it
than the others. Who's to
But it should be interesting.
Message: 80579
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Answer!
Subject: 4 of 5
Date: 12/16/91 Time: 02:19:36
Keeping the human animal alive at any cost sounds like some kind of
goal. It may be rough and many may die but who's to say they weren't
the lucky ones? The act of dying is a lot like a kid who is waiting
for their birthday and it always seems so far away, like "it'll take
forever" then bang!, it's the night before and at last it is here. It
wasn't so long after all. Well, the same goes for the individual
death of each species on the planet, the planet itself in fact. How
do you want your life to go? Sitting on a 9 to 5 with 2 weeks off,
going to church to worship your favorite master or what? Seeing
history, being and feeling history or hiding in a closet until death
steals quietly your way?
We are very expendable and it should be that way. We are not sacred
nor is death the least bit important. It is just another natural
act. You know, an equivalent of a trillon-billion years will come and
go without a flutter that any one thing lived or died. And there is a
totally excellent chance that life will still be around. Hope it is
not gold based. Hope we've come of age by then.
Message: 80580
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Answer!
Subject: 5 of 5
Date: 12/16/91 Time: 02:20:11
The primary reason that I have been mentioning death in my messages is
for people who do not know me. I like it to be understood that all we
are doing is trying to make our bodies comfortable up to our death
then not much else matters unless you care about relations and want to
find the correct way to make society better as a whole.
I think it is a waste that people stuff grease and slop into
themselves on a near continuous basis thinking all the while where
their next meal is coming from. That we value the human body so much
that we are willing to do almost anything to keep it alive on this
planet.
I think that life has the entire universe to explore and that we
surely have a wide range of sheaths to place upon our selves. And the
best part is that eternity actually exists.
Now do you see where I am coming from? Why accept carp when silky
waves of enormous colours await us somewhere in the future. Why worry
about losing something that is basically lost anyway? I don't. But I
have this curiosity deep within me that draws me toward the unknown,
the future. I am brave and realistic enough to know that 15-30 earth
years is but a pittance of the future. I am brave enough to say, take
me, I'm yours. -Rod
STOre House of Votes Bulletin Board command:$C
Press [A] to abort
Message: 27
Author: $ Apollo SysOp
Category: Old [V]ote
Subject: AIDS and the Media
Date: 12/15/91 Time: 09:58:41
AIDS just won't go away. And neither will our children. Is education the
way to make sure the twain never meet?
[A] I wish the media would just shut up about AIDS! It's an
adult matter and our kids shouldn't be burdened with it.
[B] I think the media's doing a pretty good job in educating the
public, including children, about AIDS.
[C] The media isn't doing nearly enough. Our children are our
future and it's much better to tell them early about AIDS
than to wait until it's too late.
[D] The media is over reacting with hyped facts and figures
But, our kids should be told without frightening them.
It is 'mostly' a shared drug needle and gay disease.
[E] I just don't care one way or the other.
Poll results:
[A] 0 [B] 6 [C] 7 [D] 8 [E] 0