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Apollo BBS Archive - April 9, 1990
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Message: 64608
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: War!
Subject: Rod
Date: 04/09/90 Time: 02:28:57
WHAT IS YOUR POINT?
Is the point that society sucks? Is it that all us people are blind to
the problems of the system? Is it that religion and drug laws are bad? Is
it that communism is bad, but no worse than capitalism? Are you saying
anything at all?
I think it's interesting to note that you call our government an "evil
empire" which subverts our happiness, and all the while, you complain that
there aren't enough *government* funds for welfare programs of the elderly
and disabled? Yo, Rod, have you paid to the United Fund lately? Hmmm? Do
you make regular big contributions to the Salvation Army? If so, why
haven't you been promoting these on the BBS? If not, please explain why
your position is not hypocritical.
AT LEAST you could enlighten us while you complain. If we were all
"equalized" in terms of property, would we *really* return to normal in 1-2
years? (A bogus claim to be sure: the poor are not so stupid that they'd
squander their wealth; the rich are not smart enough to take over
that quickly - and probably not even malignant enough. It takes money to
make money, it takes time to build an empire. Or are you preaching social
Darwinism?)
Meanwhile, you interject baseless claims about the Mafia being in
control of much of the Empire. I'm naive and don't see the evidence for it,
sorry. Somebody please enlighten me about the extent of the Mafia's power
today.
Message: 64609
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: War!
Subject: Rod
Date: 04/09/90 Time: 02:43:43
I am also inclined to argue your assertion that "every organism is
entitled to his share of space by right of birth." Who grants this right?
Not the government. Not "God." Not even Mother Nature. Rod, there are no
natural rights. Being born with a human DNA pattern only grants you the
rights of the society you are born into.
I suppose this all stems back to every atom in the universe being
equal, or as you would say, "every smallest unit." The relevance of this
"fact" is difficult to discern -- if you knew more about the chaotic nature
of even the smallest particles, you might conclude that our society is
already, in its chaotic way, quite perfect.
There are no natural rights in a chaotic system, and in a system such
as ours which tries and (by your own admission fails) to have order, there
is a definite limit to the rights we are able to demand from society. If
we want the right to property - i.e. space, resources, food, clothing,
shelter - then we have to work for that right. You can't just lean back in
your chair and say "I've got the right to property!" and then weep and
complain; you've got to fight for it. You've got to stand up and say I'M AS
MAD AS HELL AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!, but above that, you've
got to go out and do something intelligent about it.
There are a number of ways of working toward one's own personal rights.
The first way is to work. This both ensures that you will receive property
*and* contribute to society. In a capitalist system, there is no need
for the government to fit people to their abilities - this happens naturally
and efficiently. (Well, most of the time.)
Message: 64610
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: War!
Subject: Rod
Date: 04/09/90 Time: 03:10:58
What do you see as the source for all of mankind's misery? Is it the
evil fat cats in their high towers? Can we really be expected to believe
that they are the source of all our problems? What was it that somebody was
saying about focusing our discontent on objects and people instead of
realizing the reality of the situation? Could it not also be true that we
are responsible for much of our own misery? Sure, there are the Donald
Trumps out there who we love to hate - and rightfully do. But it's out of
hand to blame those "evil people" for everything that goes wrong. Can
we quit with this nonproductive complaining about fat cats? If you MUST
complain, start suggesting things to do with these people. (Kill them?)
By the way, the media's coverage of Ron Paul sucked, but owing to the
fact that newspapers' #1 goal *is* to make money, they cannot be wholly
condemned. You need to accept the fact that newspapers like the Republic
mostly want to print the news it thinks the public would like to know about.
A state full of Republicans and Democrats doesn't want to hear about the
Libertarian candidate, and thus the media focuses on the Lowest Common
Denominator. (*Expect* this sort of behavior!) The only thing to do is to
continue preaching the gospel of reason by offering intelligent solutions to
our society's problems. If Libertarians make themselves look good by doing
this, it's a matter of time before the public (followed by the media) will
take notice. Meanwhile, quit yer crying and enlighten with facts and good,
solid arguments.
Message: 64611
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: War!
Subject: Rod
Date: 04/09/90 Time: 03:21:03
I have my own personal ideas about What the World Should Do to Fix
Itself.
BASICALLY, I feel that much of the world's problems stem from a growing
population and a lack of natural resources. I think that we, as a country,
should make an effort *away* from big families (something of a tradition)
and toward Zero Population Growth. There is actually an organization out
there that preaches this idea.
Essentially, people should not have children they are not prepared to
support! "Support" means both financially and emotionally. If a couple
desires offspring, they would be smart to choose to have kids *only if they
are prepared to give that kid or kids a good environment and aid toward an
education which will secure the ability for survival in his/her adult life.*
In other words, we are breeding more and more people who aren't
prepared to deal with the ever-complex world. If people have less children,
they can focus more attention on the children who are there, and (hopefully)
the education level of our society will rise as the population stabilizes.
Naturally, many children are "accidents" - unplanned. And naturally, I
am for organizations such as Planned Parenthood, who try to educate people
as to means of birth control and, as a last resort, offer an alternative to
childbirth for the unprepared - abortion.
Message: 64612
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: War!
Subject: Rod
Date: 04/09/90 Time: 03:39:47
A big part of the population/resources problem is the poor. Poor
people, more than anybody, should not be bringing more children into the
world and perpetuating the problem. The poor are the least likely to have
the ability to give a child a positive environment (though it *can* happen,
it's simply financially unlikely.)
I do not think that the government should tell us how many children we
can have. This is currently done in China (they're going for *negative*
population growth) - I can't remember if they only allow 1 or 2 children per
couple; I think it's just 1. This is not a good solution because it borders
on totalitarian and creates more problems than it solves: how can you
punish people for having too many babies? Also, there are cases where
people killed their child because he/she was not the desired sex.
I do see a way of working toward a goal of less poverty-perpetuating
children. (Disclaimer: I have no problem with poor people having children
they can support.) My solution would start with the government telling its
welfare recipients, straight-out: "If you have more babies, we're *not*
going to give you more money." This would be, I think, a strong deterrent
to having more kids in a state of poverty. (This is assuming people
consider government welfare increasing upon having more children, which I
believe is currently the case.)
This is one of many areas the government could stand to reduce
spending.
Anyway, I'm out of steam.
Message: 64613
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff/F.F.
Date: 04/09/90 Time: 05:30:19
I hope that you realize that the individual signing on as Freddie Freckles
is an imposter using my clown name, and not me. I don't mind the exposure,
as long as I am not held responsible for it's posts.
***The REAL Freddie***
Message: 64614
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Roger/Corinth
Date: 04/09/90 Time: 07:46:20
I agree, that there are those out there who can quote you Scripture up one
side and down the other, but seem to forget to take it to heart and live it.
However, it seems as if that comment was directed at me because of the post
I (humorously) directed to you. I am not trying to be defensive, but if this
is the case, I would ask that you get to know me in person before you make
any judgments concerning my walk. Thanks.
Message: 64615
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Roger/McCartney Ego
Date: 04/09/90 Time: 07:48:09
You would think that he has been around long enough to prove his musical
ability, and would not be so insecure of a no-name reporter for a PHOENIX
newspaper. Poor baby.
Message: 64616
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Beau Dog/64539
Date: 04/09/90 Time: 07:54:09
Re: "Xtians...have all run away."
You WISH! (big grin) Honestly though, I have your post and Zak's post
printed out, and I am currently working on responses to both. It is taking
me a bit longer than I though because I have not had the free time I am used
to. If you are willing to wait just a little bit longer for a well-thought-
out response, then I am willing to finish it as soon as I can.
Message: 64618
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Question?
Subject: Paul on Beau
Date: 04/09/90 Time: 08:16:03
But Paul, if someone shows a lack of knowledge of what God's word really
says, don't you think that is reason enough for us to share what the Bible
DOES says to him? The Spirit works faith into the heart of a person
through the reading of God's word. If the person wishes to continue
rejecting the Spirit after hearing the word of God, there is nothing we can
do about that. But as much as we know the possibility that it might be
bitten, we still need to extend out our hand to those who don't know Him. We
can't simply shut them out and pray that the Spirit might help them. Without
the seed, the plant cannot grow and produce fruit. Agreed? (grin)
Message: 64619
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rod on Joint
Date: 04/09/90 Time: 08:20:20
Sounds like a good idea.
After all, the one on the bathroom sink upstairs does need to be replaced.
Message: 64620
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Peter on Misguided
Date: 04/09/90 Time: 08:21:39
Would you help to pay for his therapy?
Message: 64621
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Zak/Lenten
Date: 04/09/90 Time: 08:29:45
The Lenten services are mid-week services in which we ponder the events
surrounding Christ's crucifixion and resurrection. I didn't "give up
anything for Lent," tho. Well, let me see...I haven't been to Scottsdale for
a while. Yeah...I...gave up SCOTTSDALE for Lent...YEAH, that's it!
Message: 64622
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Daryl/Corinth
Date: 04/09/90 Time: 08:36:54
You are correct. You were not the target. I was speaking in generalities.
The people to whom I am referring (how's that for convoluted correct
grammar?) are very argumentative and priggish. You display none of these
qualities.
Message: 64623
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: daryl/mccartney ego
Date: 04/09/90 Time: 08:39:16
From what I know of musicians, I am not surprised. These folks have the
most fragile egos of any group I know. Musicians are hateful, spiteful,
and will go to any lengths to prove they are the best thing around since
Mozart.
Message: 64624
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rod
Date: 04/09/90 Time: 09:17:52
Your 'every entity is entitled to land by right of birth', and Marx's
'From each according to his ability, to each according to his need', are
both recipes for a decaying civilization. Nothing exists without cause. Land
is either claimed from its natural state by someone and improved, or it is
somehow aquired from others. Everything else in the world must be created
before it can be given away. Nothing will be created, or improved, if it
will only be seized from the one who does the work and given to someone
else.
More important than these proceedural problems is the fact that nobody
has the moral right to dictate such things to the individual, even if the
resulting system could work.
Real freedom, not the constricted mess we have now, in which you confuse
government harrassment and government-aided abuses of the market by
corporations with capitalism, would allow everyone to live as they chose.
Wealth under those conditions is achieved by benefitting others for a
profit. It is the ideal system. All it requires is that government be
restricted to deterring agression from within and without, and let the free
market system take care of everything else. Those few who would still not
prosper would depend on private charity, and that charity would be more
likey to come when government no longer confiscated the wealth of working
people in the name of the poor.
See You Later,
Dean H.
Message: 64625
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Roger/64622
Date: 04/09/90 Time: 20:25:51
That was very kind of you, thanks! (It's not too often that I get a
compliment nowadays!)
Message: 64626
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: last twenty
Date: 04/09/90 Time: 20:39:23
People aren't wearing enough hats
Message: 64627
Author: John Cummings
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: politics
Date: 04/09/90 Time: 21:16:56
Lets suppose that to learn about the world and economics, we must consider
the nature of mankind. (Probably true). Assume communism doesn't work (and
it definitely doesn't) because it is based upon a false kind, socialistic
idea that people will work hard for the good of the common community.
People don't wortk hard that way--they see nothing coming to them as fruits
of labor, so they don't work. Assume capitalism does works (and it does)
because it is "fair"--it gives the hard worker a bigger share of what he
produces, because he produces more than the slacker. The entrepreneur has a
chance to succeed in the U.S. Now we evaluate mankind as a basically selfish
animal--one whose greed is the motivating factor. And we're right--that is
the correct way to evaluate mankind, IN THE CONTEXT OF ECONOMICS. So Zak is
right to define the world. And Rod is wrong to bemoan our system. It is
mankind which requires this system. The evils of too much socialism and the
necessity for a little of it come later.--John.
Message: 64628
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Zak/Mafia
Date: 04/09/90 Time: 22:41:38
I've been watching a very interesting and somewhat believable series on
cable channel 21 called "Crime, Inc." It details, in suceeding order, the
mafia from the time of prohibition up to the present. Fascinating to be
sure. It showed how Capone left an empire worth mega-bucks and told of the
men who took over from there....named all the names, showed all the pictures
and documented all the files.
Their claim is that the mafia was the largest and most powerful corporation
in America after alcohol was made legal.
I guess making something that the people want makes a lot of a few people
very wealthy. It may be happening again with the drug issue and this may be
one reason that it is being kept illegal.
Perhaps, just perhaps not only the moral majority types as well as the
powerful dealer/mafia types are lobbying to keep it illegal. You know, when
an organization stands to lose billions of dollars it may be worth greasing
the palm of some government types with millions of dollars to keep it
illegal.
You ask a lot of question and I will answer what I can but perhaps not all
of them on this log in. Okay, dude?
Message: 64629
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Zak
Date: 04/09/90 Time: 22:46:20
Neither and I crying or complaining. I am simply stating ideas as I
understand them. Where you got this I haven't the foggiest.
And yes, there is a main media conspiracy to keep certain candidates out of
the news lest they become popular and win. Rethink your position on Ron
Paul.
And it is good to see you back on the main board.
Message: 64630
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Zak/birth control
Date: 04/09/90 Time: 22:48:33
What manner of birth control do you favor?
And what manner of birth control do you consider medically safe?
Message: 64631
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Poor
Date: 04/09/90 Time: 22:51:31
Well then let's pass a law that makes it illegal for poor, under a certain
yearly income to have children. We could have mandatory sterilazation.
Only the rich then would be allowed by law to have children. Good point.
I can see it coming already, a bill proposed by Jerry Falwell, hmmmm.
Besides, there is quite a lot of open, inhabitable spaces in this world,
including the good ole USA.
Message: 64632
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Dean
Date: 04/09/90 Time: 23:01:16
Good posts. In the early seventies, Jasmine and I worked for Geroge and
Madelyn Babbitt in Oak Creek Canyon. We ran Troutdale Ranch. I learned a
little of their (Babbitt) history during conversations with George.
Around the turn of the century the seven (?) Babbitt brothers trekked to
Flagstaff with their mule guns. Once there they claimed a whole heap of
land by claiming it. Part of this land was in Oak Creek. It was not theirs
to claim but claim they did.
Many a families fortune started out in such a manner. In fact a lot of land
is owned by mafia and their families. A lot of wealth is owned by same.
Yet, people who do not band together and try to rip off others seem to be
the people who are paying the most. Maybe my Apollo BBS members banding
together wasn't such a joke afterall.
Message: 64633
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: last 20
Date: 04/09/90 Time: 23:05:08
EEK!