Apollo BBS Archive - April 28, 1990


$tatus Club Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 6342
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Rod/comment
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 13:09:40

Thanks, rod. Evolution is a fascinating subject. There are few people
in this world who have changed the way we view ourselves. Darwin is
one of those people. The fascinating thing is how Darwin was able to
gather the courage to put for his Theory of Evolution in the face of
the implications of this theory. The creationists today, of course, are 
in a far weaker position than those of the 19th century, when creationism
was still a viable scientific alternative to Evolution. However, with the
advances in geology and paleontology, Darwin's theory of natural selection
is much stronger today than it was when Darwim first proposed it. I think
one of the telling blows was the discovery of genes and DNA which finally
provided the mechanism for variation that the Darwinian theory need in
order to work. Another, of course, was the advances in geological dating
that enabled the earth's age to be set a 4 or so billion years.

Message: 6343
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: last
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 13:38:02

How about an Evolution GT, someday?

Message: 6344
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Question?
Subject: Cliff
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 15:18:03

Then your saying, your using and up to date Bible - one that has been
changed? Been changed to suit new 'needs'????? 
I cannot understand why evolution is drivel in your eyes. No I do not
believe I'm a monkey or ever was. There could be a missing link! But I do
not believe we were instantly created several thousand years ago. Who in the
hell knows what's fact and isn't on this anyway? Each of us choose what we
want to belive and each one is as right as the other.
 
You are ALWAYS berating Rod for his insulting Christian bashing - yet you
insulted me in that post for stating what I believe in. 
                            -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 6345
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Mike on the subject
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 15:22:54

Re: your "If you were at all interested in being a part of a discussion"
etc. etc.
 
I do not think any one can discuss the subject of Creativiness and Evolution
and make it an intelligent discussion simply because not one of us knows
anything for sure. 
 
I will continue to cry 'Unfair' for anyone if that's the way I see it. 
 
                              -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 6346
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Cliff on birds
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 15:25:17

I still may be wrong, but I think birds were at one time cold blooded. Even
now, when you look at a bird close, you will see very obvious signs of
reptile there. Feathers are formally scales. I would like to learn more
about this.
                        -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 6347
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Cliff/Chic or egg??
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 15:27:38

f you can answer that one .........! -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 6348
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Roger/#6327
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 15:34:05

Now that makes  a lot more sense. Who knows if God did create us and this
world and if He did, maybe we just don't have enough understanding as how?
The Bible could be just part of the over all planing. Evolution could be
another part, more ancient, etc. etc. I see no argument about believing in
it all. There is a lot of proof of the Bible and a lot of proof re:
Evolution. Maybe the space aliens are the right answer after all. I.E.
Chariots of the Gods! -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 6349
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Book
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 15:35:42

Everyone should read a book by James Mitchner called 'The Source' Vedddddy
interesting. -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 6350
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Horse
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 16:10:58

        A Horse is a Horse of course, it did not turn into and elephant did
it?

Message: 6351
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: irrefutable fact
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 16:29:02

        Yes Roger...you are better then the rest of us... books YOU read all
are 100% correct.. Thr BOOKs that I quoted from are garbage.... (because you
don't agree with them)  Yes ROGER...  
        However, I do disagree with you that they were irrefutable facts.
They were facts twisted to give the results YOU wanted...  You are happy
being second cousin to an amoeba, be my guest.
        So we stand where we stood before...each with our favorite authors.
Your scentists against my scentists

                *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*  (-:}

Message: 6352
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: B-Dog on Gould
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 16:45:07

Re: Darwin & Gould
        Darwin was the way to go for quite a few years, but they proved
there was something WRONG with a slow gradual evolution, and too many people
were finding this out...so, Gould comes up with 'Punctuated Equilibrium' as
the new wave of evolution.  And I suspect they will even come up with other
new ones as each THEORY is trashed.

        Yes, Lippard...the one who thinks nuclear power and drugs are safe,
he is really the one to believe.

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 6353
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Dean Hathaway
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 17:09:50

        So, you don't know how the first species came about.  Hmmmm, there
are people who would like you to think they assembled themselves.  You were
at the 'Shoot-Out GT today...  did you see anything that we shot up
re-assemble itself?   Naaaa, everything went from order to dis-order.
Yet the evolution drivel people would have you believe that the second law
of thermodynamics took inanimate matter from disorder to order.  They will
rewrite laws to suit their wants and needs to bash you with a theory.


*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 6354
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Poor Ann
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 17:23:45

        Get this though you head...  I have NOT quoted the BIBLE anywhere on
this SIG in this debate.   I was referring to modern day science books and
other books that I was listing.  Tell me the post I quoted the BIBLE in?  If
you can't find it, then maybe it don't exist.  I know now...  You evolution
people are expecting the post to create ITSELF???
                                ha ha ha ha ha

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 6355
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: last
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 18:28:19

Sounds like fun, we could all naturally select each other.

Message: 6356
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: ann on birds
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 18:29:42

If you look at the feet of birds, they look reptilian.

Message: 6357
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: refutability
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 18:44:04

Cliff, stop doing that. If you want to talk about the issues please do.
I don't want to get into a debate about who is the better author. I only
ask you to try to understand how science works. If you read the entry
I made from _Panda's Thumb_ you would have seen an excellent example
of a scientific hypothesis explaining why A... had feathers. One hypothesis
was based upon the heat-retention problem of small animals. Remember ?
Now, if A had feathers to retain heat, and A was a dinosaur (albeit a
small one), then dinosaurs would have had to have been warm-blooded in
order to support this particular hypothesis. This a "testable" hypothesis.
If further researches revealed that dinosaurs were warm-blooded, then
the hypothesis of the feathers for A... as a dinosaur is strengthened.
Now, notice the way things work. The hypthosesis is not held to be
God-given knowledge... It can be refuted. Your authors are attempting
to refute evolution, and so far they have failed. The reason isn't because
some authors believe in evolution and others don't, the reason is that
the facts support evolution and attempts to refute have failed. Let
me give you an example: Some creationists believe that there is not
enough time for evolution to take place. Radiometric dating has established
that there have been 3.5 billions years for evolution to take place. 
creationists like James White and others attempt to discredit radiometric
dating in an attempt to remove this critical piece of evidence. 
so far, no Creationist has been able to discredit radiometric dating.

Message: 6358
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: gradualism
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 18:51:51

Let me enter what Gould has to say about this circa 1977 from his book
_The Panda's Thumb_.

"I emphatically do not assert the general 'truth' of this philosophy
of punctuational change. Any attempt to support the exclusive validity
of such a grandiose notion would border on the nonsensical. Gradualism
sometimes works well. (I often fly over the parallel ridges left standing
by gradual erosion of the softer rocks surrounding them.) I make a simple
plea for pluralism in guiding philosophies, however hidden and unarticulated
constrain all our thought. "
What Gould is saying that there is no "truth" that all theories have
validity and should be allowed to speak for themselves. The theory of
evolution does not rest upon gradualism or punctuated equilibrium. Indeed,
Darwin was criticized for his belief in gradualism as part of his theory
of evolution. Evolution remains a fact witness to by the fossils found
buried in the earth. The theory of evolution attempts to answer the
question:{How did it happen ?

Message: 6359
Author: $ James Hawley
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Ann
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 18:59:07

I read the source about 10 years ago.   Pretty interesting if I remember
correctly.  Actually most of Michener's writing is very interesting.  I
remember reading Centinial in 1 1/2 days.

Message: 6360
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Answer!
Subject: ann on birds
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 19:58:55

        Not only do the feet of birds look reptilian, birds also have two
eyes...just like reptiles.  Oh my GOD!  

                                        clif-

Message: 6361
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: deinos sauros
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 20:28:25

deinos, terrible        sauros, a lizard
a group of extinct Mesozoic reptiles with four limbs and a long, tapering
tail.  Dinosaur....  I have not argured they were not warm blooded, what I
argue here is they were not LIZARDS as you and I know them in the Arizona
desert.  These warm blooded animals were mis-named.   Birds do not all need
feathers to be a bird...  they do not even need to fly.  I do not think the
bird animal was EVER a lizard, in the sense that it was cold blooded. The
bird animal was created apart from the lizard, just like man and the monkey
are two different species.  I beleive that a GOD created several different
species and made them so they could adapt to different climates, etc.
Man however was set apart by a different analytical brain, a soul, and them
magical hands.   I do NOT think we were an *accident* of nature.

        You still keep talking about your books being better then the books
of science I was reading.  You still say because you read it, it is fact.
What about what I read?  There are Christian Paleoanthropologists you know.
Why are ones who write evolution drivel better in your mind then those who
write in support of creation?

        The day I find out there is no God...is the day I will kill myself,
rather then living a worthless with out purpose life!

Message: 6362
Author: $ James Hawley
Category: Answer!
Subject: Last
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 21:46:03

I guess that it is better to delude yourself and live, than to see reality
and die.  I guess I can understand why many people want a saviour.  The
world sucks.  People are hungry and dieing.  But if there is some reward or
some greater place THERE is a reason to persevere.  

Life is so bad that you would kill yourself without a god?  A pretty
childish point of view.  

Message: 6363
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: James Hawley
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 22:35:52

        With Christian bashers spending more time bashing then trying to
make a better world...no wonder it sucks.   
The only anger I seem to run into is from you guys.   You guys being just
like the Romans, feeding Christians to lions.... then telling us "athiests
never hurt anyone."

        All lies.... (re: misery loves company) and you atheists are a
miserable lot.  You just can't stand to see happy content people!

                                clif-

P.S.  James, I ain't going to kill myself because there is a God and it's
worth living to fill my purpose in life.  Maybe that is running this board?

Message: 6364
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: A god?
Date: 04/29/90  Time: 00:42:18

I think that if it were proven there was a god then we'd all be in trouble. 
I mean, the starvation, the killings, the uncaring.  Well, I'd spring for a
half-witted god, perhaps.


Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 65098
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Beau/voting
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 06:01:29

 Thanks for reminding me. I may just do that, since it seems that all the
interesting things are happening in the Republian arena.

Message: 65099
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rod
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 07:11:31

Re:  "Salvahan of Caribec............100 B.C.
      Quirinus of Rome...............506 B.C.
      Wittoba of Telingonese.........522 B.C.
      Prometheus of Greece...........547 B.C.
      etc."

But Jesus came back from the dead.  There are many written eye witness
accounts.  And not just the Biblical accounts.  Josephus the *non-Christian*
Jewish historian talks about Jesus in his writings.

The fact that Jesus rose from the dead just as he said he would, puts him in
a very special class.  More books have been written about Jesus than any
other person in the world.  The Bible continues to be the best selling book
in the world.  To say Jesus was only a fairy tail in view of these facts and
many others shows a mind set difficult for me to relate to.  It's like
denying it rained in the 18th century.  To say it didn't rain in the 18th
century because no one is alive today who saw it, is too simplistic.

Message: 65100
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
Subject: Shoot-out
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 07:44:27

        Well, Sandy and I are off to hold claim to a spot in the desert for
the Shoot-Out GT.  I really hope toy see you guys & Gals out there.
        
        That means you to Roger...  Zak, Jeff Beck, etc.

                                clif-

Message: 65101
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Question?
Subject: Rod
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 11:47:50

What about Bagwan Shree Rajneesh?  He died this year.  Has anyone claimed to
see him rise from the dead?  We could always start a rumor...

Message: 65102
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: daryl/arbitrage
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 12:58:07

I believe that God has a special punishment for those who believe
in Him because it is the SMART thing to do.  

Message: 65103
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Answer!
Subject: melissa/elvis
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 13:00:50

There is a rumor that Elvis has risen from the dead.

Message: 65104
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Bob/my list
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 13:42:35

Hey Bob, some pretty major religions of the world are based on some of the
people I mentioned....and.... some did come back from the dead and it
also is documented.  Too bad you weren't born in India then we'd have to
listen to you knocking Jesus as a fake.  

Message: 65105
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Religion
Subject: Bob II
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 13:46:01

Bob, what you are basically saying sounds more like an indictment against
your religion than anything else.

President Bush is an Episcopalian, Reagan, Disciples of Christ, Carter,
Southern Baptist, Ford, Episcopalian, Nixon, Quaker, Johnson, Disciples of
Christ, Kennedy, Roman Catholic, Eisenhower, Presbyterian, Truman, Baptist,
Roosevelt, Episcopalian, Hoover, Quaker, Coolidge, Congregationalist,
Harding, Baptist, Wilson, Presbyterian, Taft, Unitarian, T. Roosevelt,
Reformed Dutch, McKinley, Methodist.  This lists all of this centuries
presidents.

Is this why the internal affairs of this country are so messed up or is it
because 10 to 15 percent of the population are atheist/agnostic? 

If a Southern Baptist met a Shiite Moslem and both understood each others
language, there would be little communication between the two.  And if a
Iranian atheist met an American atheist there would be very few barriers
between the two because their non-god would be the same.

By the way, perhaps you could answer my post wherein I compared the
Christian diety to three evil men.  Could someone, anyone answer it, please?

I'll pay $10 to one that can give a logical answer to it.

Message: 65106
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
Subject: the obitz
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 17:46:21

        Whoops....  No one was killed accept for 15 gallon milk jugs filled
with water.....  and a cat........................  drawing of Bill the cat,
that is.  Some steel plates that did not know which way they wanted to
face, and alas, it looks like we need to bury a few bowling pins, they are
VERY DEAD!

        Oh yes, for you environmentalist, we packed all the shot up targets
out of the area, leaving the place CLEANER then we found it.

        You also missed out on the Bonnie Hot dog, now suffer!

        Note to new user...  Nice to meet you Mr Gordon Little!

*=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 65107
Author: John Cummings
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: religion
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 19:40:19

Suppose I'm just a questing person who wants to develop the relationship I
feel I have with God. e.g."There is a God. He wants something of me. How do
I best answer Him?" Then I appreciate Him in the sunshine and the flowers
and the storms, but I also feel the need to worship Him in some way. So, I
look for an organized group to worship Him. I find none that EXACTLY matches
what I feel, but I go to the one closest. Let's say it is the "Church of the
What's Happenin Now."  Do I fall into your category of "born brainwashed and
trapped into ignorance?" No, I don't think so! Are all Christians, Jews,
XMuslims, Brahmins, etc. so ignorant? Thomas Aquinas and Thomas More were
not dumbbells!

Message: 65108
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
Subject: Shoot-Out
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 20:57:51

        That was the most awesome assortment of armament that I had ever
seen at a GT.  I was VERY impressed.  That goes for the people that showed
up as well.   Why even Bob Thornburg was storming those poor bowling pins
with an assault 223 making kills and smiling about it.

        There was so much going on, I did not get to shoot Dean's 44 like I
was hoping ... and a few other weapons.  Maybe we need to have some mini
GT's were we can concentrate on a few weapons with a few shooters.

                        Thanks
                                clif-

Message: 65109
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rod W. on Dean H.
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 22:54:25

Re:65093   I have noticed over the years that Dean is a person of very sound
logic.

        Well Rod, that was very nice of you to say something nice about
someone...  However, you say that about anyone who agrees with you, and
anyone who does not is "Stupid" as you have said many times.  So what's new?
I on the other hand, do not agree with Dean on religion, but I am not going
to call him stupid, because I don't think he is.   I don't think Roger is
stupid either....  But you, you're a pompous @$$

                                *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

P.S.  Now you know why you have alienated me from you. (and I didn't call
you 'stupid' either)

Message: 65110
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Religion
Subject: Rod on WESTFALL
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 23:04:05

Re: "Man, this board hasn't 'cranked' like this in a long while.  It's hard
to keep up but so very damn interesting.  -Rod

I have to agree with you on that one.........   Yes, I just started reading
some of your posts again, for the past month I had been [S]kipping them for
the most part.  I almost was going to activate a [SK]ip Rod cmd, but you do
say some things that are worth while...  now and then! 

                                clif-

Message: 65111
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff on Rod
Date: 04/29/90  Time: 00:48:20

Just show me one single message where I called you stupid, stupid.  If you
can find just one then I'll give up cheese and milk for a whole month.

By the way, perhaps you will be able to answer my question about me
comparing a diety who demands ridiculous things.  There is a nice reward to
the one who can come up with a good answer.

                                Peace, eh!
                                   Rod