Apollo BBS Archive - April 1990

Apollo BBS Archive - April 27, 1990

$tatus Club Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 6325
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Cliff/writing
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 05:36:09

 Spout off the top of your head? Not at all Cliff! I have enjoyed your posts
a lot. The context and content of them just didn't sound like the Cliff we
all know and love. Now I understand why. You're really working hard on
producing them. Good job!

Message: 6326
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: SJG/gradualism
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 07:44:50

Stephen Jay Gould is a proponent of the "Punctuated Equilibrium" model
of evolution. SJG has never disowned the primary theory of evolution as
espoused by Darwin. I suggest reading _Panda's Thumb_ and other books
by SJG for a brilliant man's analysis of evolution.

Message: 6327
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: cliff/hate
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 07:55:47

Cliff, I have tried to state the facts and theories as clearly and
dispassionately as possible. Both you and Carter seem to react viscerally to
reasoned arguments. My only conclusion can be that when faced with
irrefutable fact and strong theories that have no reasonble answer, your
frustration manifests itself in attacks against the people making the
arguments rather than the argument itself. I strongly urge that you read
the books that I have mentioned to get a clear understanding of evolution 
and the theory of evolution. It is a fascinating subject. I think that it is
miraculous that the laws of the universe have led to such wondrous things.
You know, God doesn't have to perform His miracles by decree. A truly
powerful God could set up the rules of the universe and let them take their
course without His intervention. How much more wonderful is an ingenious
plan than having to tinker with everything to keep things going. Also,
evolution makes us all brothers with each other. No one is above anyone
else. No one is chosen over another. We are all equal. Isn't that wonderful
! 

Message: 6328
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Answer!
Subject: ?
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 08:47:19

Tell you what. Since Roger wants so badly to believe that my reactions
to "his irrefutable evidence" don't seem to fit his perfect ideal
of submissive behaviour before a greater force.....
 
YOU WIN... 
 
Now, go play outside and argue amoungst yourselves. You have just proven
you are incapable of the very same thing you accuse Cliff and myself of.
YOu haven't changed anyone's mind or even educated them a teeny bit.
I've been through all of this..it's your turn to play catch-up because
you haven't made it beyond your own ignorance. (See? we can thro mud too!)
So, in light of history, nothing will be accomplished here..the players
have proven this already. Further discussion is completely out of the
question. It's a waste of time. Maybe not to you because you enjoy
trying to put words into mouths and get people to react to your bile.
Heh heh. Enjoy your own bile.
"So go stick it!"
                -Pfft!

Message: 6329
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Cliff on Gould
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 10:43:44

Well, I'm behind, but I read a few things as they flew by on the way into my
buffer...
 
Gould, as Roger as said, is a staunch defender of evolution and science. He
doesn't believe that the 'gradual change' is the MECHANISM of evolution. He
proposes that the mechanism is 'punctuated equilibrium', where things more
or less stay the same for a while, and then a large amount of change occurs
in a relatively short time.
 
The writers of the anti-science, anti-evolution books like to find
statements such as Gould's and twist them of all meaning. reading a sentence
or two above or below (or better yet, his whole article) would make
it clear that he knows evolution to be true - he's just trying to convince
other scientists that he understands HOW it works.
  
A lot of the so-called "quotes" from scientists that are "anti-evolution"
are similar out-of-context quotes.  The researchers of those tracts are
shameless.  Lippard has spent a lot of time bashing a local such idiot.

Message: 6330
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Debate / dispute
Subject: Last 50 or so
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 12:11:58

Interesting reading...
Well, back to the books.

Message: 6331
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Cliff
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 12:35:41

  I don't know how the first species came about. I suspect that such
unknowns are the reason that early man invented gods to serve as
explanations of such things. To me the fact that something is unknown means
that there is still a reasonable explanation that hasn't been found. It does
not mean that reason should be discarded in favor of long accumulated folk
tales.
   See You Later,
      Dean H.

Message: 6332
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Answer!
Subject: last
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 15:16:30

Dean, since you cannot answer the question Cliff posed to you....
and your best guess was that "early man" invented Gods to serve as 
explanations....
So...do you feel compelled to *invent* a God to explain a reason?
 
I thought not.
 
It's about as ludicrous as your guess.

Message: 6333
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Answer!
Subject: B.Dog / Writers
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 15:26:12

"The writer of anti-science, anti-evolution books like to find statements
such as Goulds' and twist them of all meaning."
 
Geee....funny you should mention that...seems just recently a *lot*
of folks have been doing that with stuff out of the bible. Funny eh?
As far as your presumption is concerned..whereas you lump the two phrases;
"anti-science" and "anti-evolution" into one....
Your classification of science then must include acceptance of theories,
theoretical and unsubstatiated guesses...and best guesses..made by
someone who made the guesses to fit the rest of his / her / their
story. The lable "science" does not apply in strict terms with the
phrase "evolution". It is a common misconception that the study of
evolution itself is a science. It is not.
If they have chnaged their mind about this, then the study of Tarot cards
must also be classified as a science...as well as the study of
the zodiac, falling twigs, etc etc etc.
In fact, studying the bible would classify o{e as a scientist too!
Isn't that special? 
You like {o use the word "science" as some sort of concrete foundation
built in untarnished stone, rising high above the moral ethic. I laugh
at this thought...and the same people seem to use the word, overuse the word
and anyone who aint a scientist is nothing...heh heh...and you say we use
the bible as a crutch?
Heh heh heh

Message: 6334
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: Rebuttal
Subject: Cliff on dinosaurs
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 16:36:31

Most evolutionists believe there is an ancestoral link between birds and
lizards.
 
If you think that evolution is a "snowjob," what do you believe?  In Adam
and Eve?  Oh, no snowjob there, nothing illogical about that - simple and
stupid.

Message: 6335
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Mike Carter
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 16:43:57

There is a difference between predicting weather (in terms of precipitation
and wind) and the expectation of annual SEASONS.  If you are trying to act
like an idiot, you're doing a great job.

Message: 6336
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: zak
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 20:23:55

See my entry from Stephen Jay Gould's _The Panda's Thumb_ in the main
public SIG.

Message: 6337
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Ann/Contradictions
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 22:34:02

Please share with us a few of the Bible's contradictions. Perhaps we can
find out if they are contradictions at all, but rather misunderstandings due
to passages taken out of context, or their broader context.

Message: 6338
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Cliff/Ann
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 22:35:32

(Pardon if this has been answered already, but) The book Ann is referring to
is our Bible.

Message: 6339
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Jeff B./Weather
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 22:56:56

If we understood EVERYTHING, that would make us God. To me, the fact that
our solar system continues to move in a regular and predictable fashion, in
which we are not worried about another planet or moon veering off course and
crashing into us...the fact that we can do calculations based upon the
regular movement of planets, and launch and LAND unmanned modules onto those
planets based on the calculations we derive from the regularity of movement
is quite amazing. Long-term weather forecasting is not precisely
predictable, but we can guarantee that it is going to be cold in December
and hot in July. We know that the trees will be green in April, orange in
September, and bare in January. We know that it the sun will be visible at
10:00am, and the moon at 10:00pm. Now this is not to say that "on the
third day, God created calendars and Rolex watches." But the fact that we
can use these two forms of measurement with such accuracy is something to
consider. And the fact that we all stand still and do not go floating off or
clutch at a tree for dear life as our earth spins and orbits. That our
bodies are independently functioning devices. That our brains can store a
lifetime of information in a single small mass of grey matter, and that they
can receive and process information instantaneously to and from all of it's
sensory perceptors. The fact that two humans can join together and a new
life is formed; that each body produces one-half of the material needed to
bring about a new person, and no one person can bring a child into the world
entirely of their own bodily capabilities. What causes reproduction anyhow?
We inhale oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide; plants absorb carbon dioxide and
emit oxygen. And so on, and so on.

Message: 6340
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Jeff/Grey-bearded
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 22:57:47

A misconception right there. "God is spirit."

Message: 6341
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: last twenty
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 00:53:58

Great reason and logic coming from the evolution camp.  Questions are being
posed that are being "over-looked" by creationists.  I am impressed.

Roger, you certainally have given life a lot of thought.  Keep up the good
work.

X-Rated Cosmos Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 3793
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Answer !
Subject: Me
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 12:24:19

WOW!  I have received 7 letters since last Friday in responce to my reviews
in Factsheet Five.  I have to go and make another batch of copies!  After
my finals are over, I plan on printing up some new stories.  I may even do a
collection of the Apollo stories.
If any of you want copies of anything, let me know.

Message: 3794
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: last
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 16:52:19

Have you seen the review of Petrisko's "Hernia Retraction Accordian" in the
New Times?  They loved it.

Message: 3795
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Cosmos-Chatter
Subject: Zak/last
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 00:56:11

I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I
hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate
you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you,
I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I
hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate
you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you,
I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I
hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate
you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you,
I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I
hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate
you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you,
I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I
hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate
you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you,
I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I
hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate
you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you,
I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I
hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate
you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you,
I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I
hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate you, I hate
you, I hate you, I hate you.  But then again, I love you, know what I mean?

End of the Universe Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 1292
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Sandy
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 16:54:14

Manners and respect - ha ha.  If you have been studying so hard, I would
like to see more coherent arguments than the ones you originally posted.  I
quickly lose sight of manners and respect when I see arguments that are so
disrespectful of intelligence.
 
Let me specify:  Your arguments gave quoted information in which you did not
even state what it was you were quoting and what the context was.  You made
several claims without one bit of evidence that could be interpreted as
conclusive.  I challenge  you to do so, and if you cannot, I will gladly say
that I think your argument is weak.  If you wish to interpret this as
disrespect, go right ahead.

Message: 1293
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Sandy
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 16:57:06

I don't want to hear your claims without evidence.
 
Just the facts, Maam.

Message: 1294
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Devil Shit!!!
Subject: canine excrement
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 21:07:40

Thanks, Rod.  Tough fingers, I guess.  I used to play the piano as a
kid.  I never realized it would be good training for a career in
computers.

Message: 1295
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Devil Shit!!!
Subject:  Doggie, Bow-wow
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 00:59:19

So, your career is in computers, eh?  I specialize in frontal lobotomies,
both the old method and the new.

Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 65067
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Roger Mann
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 05:24:50

 Why should the Bible make sense within the context of the rules of the
universe as we know it ROger?
 Man, although he continually tries, will never fully understand God's
universe. Personally, I believe that God created it that way, so that man
could be a constantly learning creation, ever growing in the knowledge and
pursuing awe and wonder at the scope of God's ability.
 THere was an article in the paper just the other day that told about how
amazed some scientists were at the uniformity and obvious planning that is
evident in even the furthest reaches of man's view.
 If God laid it all out so simply that we cold understand it all from
kindergarten on, how would our faith be exercized? Remember, faith IS the
EVIDENCE of things hoped for, the SUBSTANCE of things not seen.

Message: 65068
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Answer!
Subject: Beck..err Adkins
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 08:34:57

Your self idolatry in those last few messages is showing again Mark.
Time to take your medicine.
The above shows an example of how to irratate someone without actually
insulting them. If you are incapable of manifesting enough comprehension
to see and understand the difference, then indeed, your claim that 
labelling religion (or anyone's differing beliefs) as a pernacious fairy
tale  was an innocent mistake.
Otherwise, quit the chicanery, it's so thin and vain it actually reeks.
Someone once repeatedly asked why "All the Christians refuse to answer.."
blah de blah blah blah...
(1) Evidence of the attitude displayed by Mr Adkins (Jeff Beck in disguise)
is somewhat typical of a lot of the same people who claim to want answers
but in reality wish to use it as a forum for self loving worship.
Using the falsehood of a real debate as a soapstand of mockery. 
(2) When facts are presented, they're (obviously) disputed. But instead
of continued debate on the topic, 100% of the time I see ad hominem attacks
and more mockery.
 
My response is simple. I don't answer to anybody here. If you're so 
uncomfortable with my happiness, inner peace and well being, that's
quite simply YOUR problem. It obviously upsets you, but instead of
listening, you're out to accuse, point, blame, spit and fight.
Now, GO PLAY OUTSIDE.
                      --==** THE MIGHTY APOLLO BELIEVER **==--

Message: 65069
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Religion
Subject: Cliff
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 12:51:26

  I suppose that a life of using reason and never accepting outlandish
arguements on faith would seem meaningless to you. To me, a life of devotion
to something which must be taken on faith is worse than meaningless, because
life's purpose is falsely understood. I get along fine with theists and
atheists alike, I just take into account that the theist holds a large part
of life apart from inquiry and modification. Many of them can still function
fairly well, if they do a good job of restricting that uncritical habit
of mind to as few areas of thought as possible.
   See You Later,
      Dean H.

Message: 65070
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Answer!
Subject: Dean / Last
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 15:13:36

"I just take into account that the theist holds a large part of life
apart from inquiry and modification. Many of them can still function
fairly well, if they do a good job of restricting that uncritical habit of
mind as to few areas of thought as possible"....
 
In this you attempt to use your own thought process as a measure of worth
against anothers. That you assume that it would be necessary to "hold apart"
a "large part of life"...and "still function fairly well".
You have made a highly biased, unscientific and ludicrous at best statement
here. Is it's purpose to denigrate theists or to belittle their capability
of living a full and productive life?
After reading that, it's obvious that you think so. In fact, taking your
twisted logic a little further, one could summarize that you would think
the same of anyone who differs from you in any way...by skin color...
hair color...perhaps even someone who *believes* in going to bed later
or earlier than yourself. You open a window to a very narrow minded
personality..one which sees fit to devalue those thoughts or beliefs which
do not match its own must -in your logic- be inferior.
Well, as *proof* against your last message...I live a very full and
productive life. I have invented and produced, created and destroyed...
But I don't permit narrow minded values to judge other people. I leave
the judgement to a much higher authority and his name is Jesus Christ.
"See you later"

Message: 65071
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Answer!
Subject: Shoot Out GT
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 15:29:47

I will arrive at the I-17 and Carefree junction a few minutes..maybe
even 5 or 10...before 9:30am. 
I will be driving a Grey Chevy S-10 Blazer...front plate reads:
 N 7 G Y X
I will be leaving the area 9:30am if there are those of you who would 
like to follow me in to the location of the Shoot-out GT.
 
Be there early please!
        
        -Mike

Message: 65072
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Answer!
Subject: Peter P....
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 17:25:44

        Why sure Peter...  If they leave me alone, I leave them alone.

Message: 65073
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jeff Beck
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 17:29:47

        I have gotten along with you for many years in person.  I never
recall you bringing it up, nor have I ever tried to 'Save You'. As for the
rest of your message, it's just silly.

Message: 65074
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Religion
Subject: Dean Hathaway
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 17:43:06

        See how insulting you guys get...  You say we don't 'reason' or
"inquire' into life around us....  Because we believe what we believe, you
think we don't think.  Where do you think I got all those facts that I
posted in the $TAtus SIG?  I think of how things must work...a whole lot.
I resent you saying otherwise very much so...  It damn hurts!  
        
        I have an analytical mind and can take anything apart and put it
together again.....without instructions.  I am always thinking.

                                        clif-

Message: 65075
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
Subject: Shoot-Out GT
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 17:51:25

        Bring Drinks!   (Water Soda etc, but NO BEER!)
EVERYONE is welcome.  There will be NO political or religious debates, as we
are here for only one thing...FUN!

        If you have never fired a weapon, but would like to see what it is
like....please come on out.  Sandy who is a Weapons Instructor for the USMA
will be there to help you.  SAFETY will be high priority of the day.

        There will be 22's, 380, 9mm, 38, 357, 44, 45 and others.

        *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 65076
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: telltale wishbone 1
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 20:05:01

Here is an excerpt for your analytical minds from Stephen Jay Gould's
_The Panda's Thumb_ on the subject of Archaeopteryx. Put on your thinking
caps and enjoy...
"But how can we view feathers as an inheritance from dinosaurs; surely no
Brontosaurus was ever invested like a peacock. For what did Archaeopteryx
use it feathers ? If for flight, then feathers may belong to birds alone;
no one has ever postulated an airborne dinosaur (flying pterosaurs belong
to a separate group). But Ostrom's anatomical reconstruction strongly 
suggests that Archaeopteryx could not fly; its feathered forearms are
joined to its shoulder girdle in a manner quite inappopropriate for flapping
a wing. Ostrom suggests a dual function for feathers: insulation to protect
a small warmblooded creature from heat loss and as a sort of basket trap to
catch flying insects and other small prey in a fully enclosed emabrace.
 
Archaeopteryx was a small animal. It weighed less than a pound, and stood
a full foot shorter than the smallest dinosaur. Small creatures have a
very high ratio of surface area to volume. Heat is generated over a body's
volume and radiated out through its surface. Small warmblooded creatures
have special problems in maintaining a constant body temperature since
heat dissipates so quickly from their relatively enormous surface. Shrews,
although insulated by a coat of hair, must eat nearly all the time to keep 
their internal fires burning. The ratio of surface to volume was so low
in large dinosaurs that they could maintain constant temperatures without
insulation. But as soon as any dinosaur or its descendent became very small
it would need insulation to remain warmblooded. Feathers may have served 
as a primary adaptation for constant temperatures in small dinosaurs. 
Bakker suggests that many small coelurosaurs may have been feathered as 
well. (Very few fossils preserve any feathers; Archaeopteryx is a great
rarity of exquisite preservation.)
 
Feathers, evolved primarily for insulation, were soon exploited for another
purpose in flight. Indeed, it is hard to imagine how feathers could have
evolved if they never had a use apart from flight. The ancestors of birds
were surely flightless, and feathers did not arise all at once and fully
formed. How could natural selection build an adaptation through several
intermediate stages in ancestors that had no use for it ? By postulating
a primary function for insulation, we may view feathers as a device for  
giving warm-blooded dinosaurs an access to the ecological advantages of
small size.
 
Ostrom's arguments for a descent of birds from coelurosaurian dinosaurs
do not depend upon the warm-bloodedness of dinosaurs or the primary 
utility of feathers as insulation. They are based instead upon the  
classical methods of comparative anatomy -- detailed part-by-part 
similarity between bones, and a contention that such striking resemblence
must reflect common descent, not convergence. I believe that Ostrom's
arguments will stand no matter how the hot debated about warmblooded
dinosaurs resolves itself. [recent evidence indicates warmbloodness -rm]

But the descent of birds from dinosaurs wins its fascination in the 
public eye only if birds inherited thier primary adaptations of
feathers and warmbloodedness directly from dinosaurs. If birds developed
these adaptations after they branced [from dinosaurs], then dinosaurs are
perfectly good reptiles in their physiology; they should be kept with
turtles, lizards, and their kin in the class Reptilia. But if dinosaurs
really were warmblooded [as recent evidence indicates -rm], and if feathers
were their way of remaining warmblooded at small sizes, then birds
inherited the basis of their success from dinosaurs. And if dinosaurs were
closer to birds than other reptiles in their physiology, then we have a 
classical structural argument -- not just a genealogical claim -- for the
formal alliance of birds and dinosaurs in a new class, Dinosauria.
 
Bakker and Galton write:'The avian radiation is an aerial exploitation of
basic dinosaur physiology and structure, much as the bat radiation is an
aerial exploitation of basic, primitive mammal physiology. Bats are not
separated into an independent class merely because they fly. We believe
that neither flight nor the species diversity of birds merits separation
from dinosaurs on a class level.' Think of Tyrannosaurus, and thank the
old terror as representative of his group, when you split the wishbone
later this month. [from Natural History, November, 1977]

Message: 65079
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
Subject: Shootout GT
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 21:18:53

How many people are coming?  I'm planning on being there tomorrow,
with some artillery...

Message: 65080
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
Subject: Ear protection
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 21:22:37

Thanks for the hint, I just bought a pair on my way home from work.
Boy, they sure are better than the ones they hand out at Ben
Whatsisname.  I usually have to stick plugs in my ears underneath
those AS WELL to avoid being deafened by anybody at the next table.

Message: 65081
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
Subject: Who else?
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 21:38:02

        Burg Thornbob... or is that Bob Thornburg & 3 sons are coming to the
GT.   Who else?  Please speak up as time is running short...

        I-17 north to the Carefree highway exit...  Right at the turn off
there is a staging area...  Wait there for Dean Hathaway or Mike Carter to
lead you in.   If...you should come late and need to find the place
yourself, head east (right) down Carefree for 2.1 miles, turn right into the
desert and go another tenth of a mile then bear right cutting across a small
dry wash and stay on that path for about 4 tenths of a mile... and there be
us!   Yes, cars have no trouble making it.

                        *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 65082
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Roger / Dinosaurs
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 21:47:19

        I enjoyed those posts Roger.  I have always had that as a favorite
subject since I was a kid.  I read everything I could find, and even
gave lectures on them when I was in school.   However...seems the info on
dinosaurs has changed drastically since my school days.

        If I could have a time machine, (dream) that time period would be
one of the first I would go to.  Fascinating!  (not to kill them either,
but to photograph and observe)

                        *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 65084
Author: $ Beauregard Dog
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Paul/voting
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 22:16:23

Although there isn't "vote in any party primary" capability in this state,
one can change party affiliation (50 days in advance?) and vote in any party
you wish. Then change back again after election/primary day.

Message: 65085
Author: $ Bob Thornburg
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Whoever
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 23:15:40

Re:  "I gave him a perfectly valid answer: that a destructive fairy tale is
no less destructive for its imaginary nature."

Huh?  I don't remember getting your answer.  It's luck I saw your answer
addressed to Cliff so I could answer it.

Answer:  The only destruction I know of is done by wolves in sheep's
clothing, that is, by non-Christians who claim to be Christians.  Jim Jones
is a good example of this.  Jesus said to look out for them.  He said we
could identify them by the results of their actions.  Basically, Jesus never
asked us for much.  He summarized it in 2 statements.  Love your neighbor
and yourself, and love God.  For some strange reason, this makes people like
Rod want to puke.

Message: 65086
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Hans/Religion
Date: 04/27/90  Time: 23:51:58

Silly things like fornication. Yeah, such a silly thing. A sexual
relationship outside the realm of committment, with the possibility of a
resulting child. Just kill it before it's born, rid ourselves of the
inconvenience. Yeah, sounds real good. And those sexual diseases spread
among those who don't care how many people they do it with. Remember, two
virgins cannot get syphillis or genital herpes. Gee, I wonder if there's a
connection there?
 
I don't do drugs, and I don't smoke. I may consume alcohol, but it is never
more than one or two wine coolers or a small glass of wine with dinner, and
I never drink to excess. The Bible warns about gluttony and drunkenness,
does it not? I would consider a Biblical condemnation of drunkenness (and
there are some mighty strong ones in there) to mean that drunkenness (or any
excess) is wrong. (Sexual excess? See above paragraph.)
 
I do not "suffer" through life. Just because I do not indulge in excess or
do things contrary to my conscience does not mean I am living some "partial"
life. I do not sleep with anyone but my wife, and I don't feel I am missing
out (and yes, she was my first). I don't shoot garbage into my arm "just to
find out what it's like and experience life to the fullest." I lead my life
as honestly as I can, with God's help, because I WANT to. This is a
completely fulfilling life FOR ME. I am happy and completely content. I
don't need to give in to every temptation to feel that I've achieved
something. That I CAN resist the world's temptations, I feel is achievement.

If I were to die tomorrow, and there was no God, I wouldn't be suffering
loss. I lived my life in a manner that was completely sufficient and
satisfying to me.
 
BUT...if YOU were to die tomorrow, and there God DOES exist, where would you
stand?
 
My salvation is not due to whether or not I put any money in the collection
plate. My sins were paid for at the Cross (and by the way, so were yours,
you just refuse to believe it). Oral Roberts and Jimmy Swaggart and Jim and
Tammy are NOT God. IMHO, I do not believe they represent God. YAHWEH,
Jehovah...HE is God. HE is the one that tells me that salvation is mine
without any merit of my own. As for the collection plate, any respectable
church teaches that offerings are given of free will and not demanded. If
one does not wish to put in the plate, they pass it on to the next person.
If someone looks at that person funny, that's their OWN fault; God does not
want grudgingly-given gifts, he wants ones that are given freely and from
the heart. God does not look down upon that person because he did not feel
in his heart that he wanted to monetarily support his congregation at that
time.
 
Those on the outside are so quick to condemn what they do not know. Christ
said that there would be those that would go out using His name, but would
not be part of His own.

But of course, you do not know Scripture, and therefore conclude that anyone
who says "I represent Christ" DOES.

Message: 65089
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Jeff/65060
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 00:10:06

Ok, what exactly makes Christianity "a destructive fairy tale?"

Message: 65090
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Rod/Your 5
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 00:14:44

Your five messages offer many things that I feel you deserve a thought-out,
intelligent response to. I have captured them, and will compose responses
offline, as I did previously. I hope to get to them soon. The weekend is
pretty booked, but look for them mid-week.

Message: 65091
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Cliff/Minds
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 00:24:35

Yes, just because one trusts in Jesus as his/her Lord, doesn't mean that the
person closes all thought processes and becomes a la-de-da-de fruitcake. We
wonder about things, too. But we also awe in God and His creation, and trust
in the knowledge that the One that keeps this ol' universe spinning around
is the same One that loves and cares about, and listens to...little ol' me.
He's not too big to care about the little things. There is a peace of mind
in knowing Christ that just cannot be explained to someone who doesn't know
Him. I can sit and talk with someone who wants to give me a hard time
because of what I believe, and I can stand my ground, and walk away, still
strong in my faith. The non-believer may call it ignorance, but I call it
faith in the One who keeps His promises.

Message: 65092
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Last Post 4 2Nite
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 00:41:05

I believe in God. This is not because I made a decision to do so, but
because of God's grace. This belief, therefore, is not shaken by this or
that. This faith is not lost because of last minute doubt on one's deathbed.
The fact that belief comes from God and not ourselves is the greatest
comfort in a Christian's life. It is not by our merit that we are justified
...neither is it by our merit that we are sanctified. We do not have to rely
on our imperfect selves as a factor in whether or not we are God's children.
God gave all people the opportunity to become His children through the
vicarious atonement at Calvary. Mankind's sins are atoned for, and the only
sin that condemns anymore is unbelief. Unbelief in Christ's redemptive work,
is the only action we can take credit for, in regard to our eternal life.

My belief is strong, not because I was beat into submission by anyone, but
because my Lord was beat and tortured unto death for me. It seems like
nonsense to one who has turned his back on any possibility of Biblical
truth, but I am a learned individual, I have intelligence and am not some
spaced out wacko, and yet I can say to you, it is not nonsense. If you
consider me a fool for believing what I believe, I cannot change that. I
cannot do the Spirit's work in changing another's heart. All I can do
is share the seed (God's word). Read the parable of the sower sometime for
insight on this. I might feel compelled, according to my faith, to tell you
of the consequences of unbelief, but that does not make me stop being your
friend. I regret that I might not see you in heaven, however, so I should
spend whatever time I can with you now. I hope you might someday understand.

Message: 65093
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Religion
Subject: Cliff on Dean's post
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 01:11:05

I didn't detect any "airs" in Dean's post about religion.  He was simply
stating something as he saw it.  I have noticed over the years that Dean is
a person of very sound logic.  More people should listen to him.

Message: 65094
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Religion
Subject: Daryl, you asked.
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 01:13:38

Hereunder is a short list of some of the alleged "saviors" who came into
the world, and preached and prophesied their delusions and were executed
long before Jesus:
      Salvahan of Caribec............100 B.C.
      Quirinus of Rome...............506 B.C.
      Wittoba of Telingonese.........522 B.C.
      Prometheus of Greece...........547 B.C.
      Quezalcoti of Mexico...........587 B.C.
      Sakia of Hindustan.............600 B.C.
      Alkestus of Aegeia.............600 B.C.
      Iao of Nepaul..................622 B.C.
      Indra of Tibet.................725 B.C.
      Bali of Orissa.................725 B.C.
      Hesus of Stonehedge............834 B.C.
      Tammus of Syria...............1100 B.C.
      Crishna of India..............1200 B.C.
      Atys of Chaldea...............1200 B.C.
      Thulis of Egypt...............1700 B.C.
      Osiris of Karnac..............2200 B.C.

(FROM THE SATIRICON)

Message: 65095
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Religion
Subject: last
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 01:14:27

    Then there was Beli of the Afghans, Horns of Egypt, Baal of Phoenicia
and Tyre, Zoroaster of Persia, Bal of Babylon, Kameloxis of Thrace, Zoar of
Bonzes, Adad of Ninevah, Deva-Tat of Siam, Elaides of Thebes, Beddin of
Japan, Cadmus of the Hellenes, Hel and Fata of the Mandans and Gentaut of
the Aztecs--and many others.
    All of the above alleged "Christs" were "human sacrifices" remember. 
They gave thier "lives and precious blood," for the sure and certain
redemption of their believers.
    Without the aid of a husband the following mythological young women
bore a Divine Son:
      Miss Yesoda...................Mother of Chrishna
      Miss Celestine................Mother of Zulis
      Miss Chemalma.................Mother of Quezalcotl
      Miss Semele...................Mother of Bacchus
      Miss Prude....................Mother of Hercules
      Miss Alcemone.................Mother of Alcides
      Miss Shingmon.................Mother of Yu
      Miss Mayence..................Mother of Hesus
      Miss Mary.....................Mother of Jesus
    Confucius, Zoroaster, Chrishna, Pythagoras, Mithra, and Sakia had
angelic and shepherd visitors and their mothers were called by the devotees
"Queen of Heaven." ---T.T. Woods, Contemporary American Writer.
(to be continued)

Message: 65096
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Religion
Subject: General comment
Date: 04/28/90  Time: 02:16:57

I honestly do not intend this message to be taken as a "red herring".  I am
being perfectly honest in my opinion just as Daryl is being truthful in
his.

I have been giving the creationists view a lot of thought but something
keeps puzzling me and it is, to wit:

On one hand we have this spirit entity that creationists claim is
responsible for all life existing.

On the other, this all-loving, all-knowing entity sets certain demands on
some of those (all humanoids) it created.  Okay..... this is my point:

This entity, because of its demands reminds me of a Adolph Hitler, Joseph
Stalin and Pol Pot all rolled into one.

For redemption, according to Christians, all humans must accept that this
entity had a son who came to earth to be put to death for the sins of all
humans.  Those not accepting will perish in a lake of fire for all of
eternity.

Now, this all knowing entity surely must have known that billions of humans
have already died not believing in this son.  Right this instant, for
instance, and this instant, and this instant, a human has died that is
either a Jew, an atheist, an shiite moslem, a buddhist or something other
than a Christian.

And that is why this Christian God reminds me of the most evil entity ever
imagined.  Even more evil than the three evil people that I mentioned
because they could only kill the body, which they did and quite often but
this God spirit tortures the soul for evermore.

I hope you understand this simple but logical point that I am making.  It
is a serious question in my mind and my hope is that some bible scholar out
there can set me straight.

My final point is, and I am very curious about it as well, is how in the
world can anyone get an update on a book that was written 1500 years ago and
longer?  I mean, I'm positive that all things are in a constant state of
change and 1500 years is a long time.  What's the deal?   -Rod

P.S.  I'm sure that other gods are just as bad and probably much worse but
somehow I just can't help understanding the problem in this light.
Perhaps Daryl could give me an answer.