Apollo BBS Archive - April 1990

Apollo BBS Archive - April 23, 1990


Message: 6227
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: X-ians vs. Atheists
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 01:55:35

OK, OK, we're all hypocrites.  Now let's get on with it.

Message: 6228
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Last....
Subject: all hypocrites
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 03:53:03

Not me: I'm Harpocrates.

Message: 6229
Author: $ Paul Savage
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Roger on Rod
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 05:15:01

"Rod is honest. He tells it like it is." Roger Mann, mess. 6223.
 I guess that puts you squarely in the atheist camp, huh?

Message: 6230
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Paul/last
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 06:58:44

Re: the last post to Roger .... I am not a athiest, yet I see that Rod is an
honest man and tells it like it is .... ' his 'is' and I see nothing wrong
in that. We have all made our choices on our belief's and we all think we
are right and we are - right for us. 
THE TRUE FACTS ARE ...
None of us know any of this for sure ... you have not seen any proof of God,
Jesus, the Bible, etc. etc. Rod does not know for sure these do not exist
and that the Bible isn't the entire truth. We all gather information and
then choose. Sometimes we let other's - I.E. our parents, our friends
influence us, but the final dicision is ours alone. All religions and
athiests make and have good points - so do the Jews, Moslems, Buddaists,
Taoists, Hindus et al. 
I also do not see where Rod is so bad trying to convert Christians to
athiestism anymore than Christians trying to convert him. Both are trying to
make the other 'see the light' so to speak. I NEVER understood why the
people come down on him so bad on this board over the years because he
states what is truth to him! Yes, he has came down on Christians before and
pretty bad - but he's not doing this now. Why not just 'converse'?
                           -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 6231
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Paul on Rog
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 08:01:11

I don't think Rod is an atheist. From what he said, he sounds more like an
agnostic.

Message: 6232
Author: $ Gary Jones
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: After death
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 09:25:47

Ms. O'Hare is absolutely nothing before death, too.

                                                   ****  Gary   ****

Message: 6233
Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
Category: Answer!
Subject: James Hawley
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 10:20:55

        How about athiestic Russia? They killed millions.

Message: 6234
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Gary/O'Hair
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 12:24:43

Any reason, or are you just bitchy this morning ?

Message: 6235
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Sandy/Russia
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 14:02:30

  They killed in the name of another faith, communism, which is not
altogether different from religion. Atheism is simply a lack of theism, it
does not motivate agression against others. An agressive theism can motivate
some to act in self-defense against it, but this is only a reaction to a
threat.
  See You Later,
     Dean H.

Message: 6236
Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Dean
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 15:34:10

        I thought we were talking strickly about religious beliefs. I did
not realize political beliefs were included in the conversations.
Communism promots a non-belief in a god; communism wants the hearts and
souls of its people. I would say that communism is an atheistic government,
and a very aggressive one at that. I would also say that an atheist can feel
threatened and would have the ability and motivation to act in self-defense.

Message: 6237
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: `last several
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 16:59:02

Good posts, points taken. 
You're blind and historically incorrect if you judge Christians or other
religious sects to be the only harbingers of war and witch hunting.
How convenient it is to forget Stalin, Hitler and Atilla eh ?
Infererring that killing for purely religious reasons is the only
inexcusable killing is also historically and morally wrong.
Mass killing for ANY reason is wrong. Political, Religious or otherwise.
Politics are a reflection in DIRECT proportion to the moral health of
a nation. If the nation is full of me-firsts, grab it while you cans
and neer do wells, you'll find their leaders are just like 'em.
...and like we're already starting to see, they pass laws that make
what was once wrong, right...because the masses don't want to be wrong.
Yep, sit there comfortable in knowing that within the next 5 years you
will see this nation and its people go rapidly down the poop shute.
Of course, that's how I'LL SEE IT....some of you will undoubtably see
it as "progression" and "good". No doubt at all. More abortions,
legalizing drugs, legalizing gambling, less and less ability to
see "justice" served in a legal system that will (and already does)
permit petty crime and by its sluggishness alone, alleviate punishment
for those who commit "minor crimes".
Fortunately or not, by the time you recognize it, and you *will*,
it'll be when you're being flushed down covered in it like everyone else.
Christians, Atheists, Agnostics and anything else with two feet and 
a head.

Message: 6238
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Question?
Subject: Where'll U be?
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 17:08:29

Ann makes a bold claim about Christians *NEVER* seeing any *proof*
of their religion or God existing. 
Well, if all you are looking with is your eyes, you will remain blind.
Fortunately for me, I can tell the difference between what is right
and what is wrong...and it doesn't rely soley upon what I see with me
eyes. To state that the only things that EXIST can be tactile, smelt,
seen etc..is to be truly blind. Science is a name given to the use of
those senses to discover stuff we don't know and explain that which we
don't understand. When Science cannot explain something or define it,
the Scientist(s) attempt to place their own values and ideas upon it.
(BTW, it is commonly known as THEORIZING).
Scientists have yet to explain everything about the human body, or
for that fact, how any living thing works from day one to day end.
Yet they EXIST. Love is another one. SOme claim chemical changes etc
produce this feeling..._fine_ but what *STARTED* it?
You can feel the multifacteted efects of love..but you cannot condense
it into words, measurements or even see it always. So, someone like
Ann, who needs to see something with their eyes before it exists, truly
miss out on life. 
Life can be as material and plastic as you want it.
        

Message: 6239
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Answer!
Subject: where'll u be
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 20:59:39

If you are really thinking, you will realize the only reasonable
answer is "I don't know". To look at one's belief and say "I could
be wrong" or "She could be right" What this leads to is a tolerance
of others views and having the benefit of other's experiences and
points of view. Dogmatism, pure and simple, is not the way to find
truth. The only way is to search. And the only way to search is with
humility about one's own views. For example, we in the Western world
have a religion that is a win/lose religion. You're with God or you're
in Hell. Some religions, such as Shinto, have no God at all but do have
a reverence beauty and ancestors. Whose to say they aren't right. What
about Buddhism ? Those folks do manifest a great tranquility and peace
that seems almost transcendent. What about Islam ? What about Hinduism ?
What about Judaism ?

Message: 6240
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: science and religion
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 21:46:46

"I think the reverence for uncertainty is the difference between a creative
visionary and a fanatic.  A fanatic looks for something that will stamp out
the uncertainty.  The creative person acknowledges the uncertainty."
 
   -- Peter Senge

Message: 6241
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: atheism
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 21:55:52

Rod is an atheist, as am I, and he does a service.  It is all too easy to
forget, while one is conversing with relatively moderate believers, the
damage to the human psyche, and indeed, to whole societies and
civilizations, which fanatical religion has done over the aeons.

Message: 6243
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Answer!
Subject: last
Date: 04/24/90  Time: 00:14:38

The only dammage done is that of ignorance and ignorance that
is forced by deliberate omission.
For every count of dammage done by religion, an equally heinious
and dammaging account can be pointed out on the horrors done
by atheists.
Instead of looking in your search for all of the bad ins something, Mark,
you should also stop to check out the beauty and splendor.
Without this in your posts, you present a very bigoted and
unbalanced viewpoint. Without this balance to witness, your posts
read like the person writin them isn't searching or looking to
answer something..but rather to do what I mentioned in previous posts.
All of the people who bash religion bash it on the grounds of either
they fail to understand or they think it's doing more harm than good.
While (A) is certainly understandable [ I've been there ] , reason
(B) isn't. Reason B takes us back to witch hunts and ignorance.
Reason B is touted by those who really are reason (A).
Rod Williams once (and repeatedly) said to me;
"The Bible is a book written over 2000 years ago, it's out-dated and
behind the times and can't possibly hold any truth in today's society"
Funny, it says in there that you will be persecuted for your faith
by those who fear and donot understand your happiness. 
If the Bible is so outdated, why does it contain so much truth?
People are so quick to point out what they believe to be errors and
such in the bible..I read through that little booklet of Jim Lippards
and went through it with a Bible scholar about 4 years ago.
I remember that much of Jim's book was based on his assumptions.
The content was thin and the so called errors were mere assertions
on his behalf because the writings in the Bible didn;t clarify passages
enough to his liking. There was something that stick in my mind over
the time I spent doing a little research...and that was how could
someone go through all of this and miss it all?
It was clear that the person claiming the bible was packed full of lies
had to have read something totally different. But they didn;t
read it at all...that is where they failed. But that's O.K.....
My faith wasn't shaken, disturbed or even shadow cast...I went there
in hopes to find the errors and search through the Hebrew with someone
who could read it. It was my excuse to go over some fine details and
gain some hidden insight and errors in the story.
 
All this is but a waste of time. Words that will not be understood.
My point in all of this boils down to this much;
 
Since *none* of you are qualified to say you don't have a religion,
just shut up already (tm).
Stop finding excuses to trash and persecute and take a long look in the
mirror at yourself..a member of the human race.
The same ones who, religion or none, do all and more of these horrors
you keep blaming only one group for. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Message: 6245
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: posts
Date: 04/24/90  Time: 01:39:50

Damn, there are a lot of good posts here.  It is easy to see who is
bull$hitting and who is not.

It is easy to spot an open mind and see who is HONEST.

End of the Universe Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 1269
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Rod
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 01:57:26

Do you mean last as in my message 1266, or last as in the message 1267 which
somebody wrote and then zapped?

Message: 1270
Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: zak
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 10:54:12

        The Official Transcript of Proceedings before the United States
Department of Education occured in 1984. The hearings took place in Seattle,
Washington; Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania; Kansas City, Missouri; Phoenix,
Arizona; Concord, New Hampshire; Orlando, Florida; Washington D.C.
        Federal Experimental School Programs are still being created and
implemented in the school system to date. Even some of the older programs
are still being used.
        I object very strenuously to your accusations that I so not know
what I am talking about, that I am using outdated information to support my
beliefs, that I am grasping for straws .
        I have been involved in the school issue since 1975. I have read
many books, read school books, talked to some teachers, talked to college
students training to become teachers, talked to parents who were having
problems with their school systems, tried to talk to school boards. My
experience in the matter goes far. My belief in what I am doing is founded
on what I have discovered. I thought very hard before I made my decision to
home school and have been grieved many times by my family. I am treading on
a lonely road at present. 
        I am incensed when some young kid quickly looks up a date about a
program, hollers 'OUTDATED!", and proceeds to undermine what I have studied
and experienced for so many years. Get off your High and Mighty horse, quit
ideolizing and theorizing.
        You had better go back to your school and retake that course you
missed in Manners and Respect.

        I was in school too. I was never told, by ANYONE, "Don't talk to
your parents about your problems." Just because I did not experience it and
you did not experience it does not mean the problem does not exist.
        My so-called-evidence was presented to you in good faith. I took the
time out to post just a few of the incindents that have occured in the
public school systems throughout the country. Forgive me if I could not read
your mind and post whatever 'evidence' you felt needed posted to satisfy
your contrary mind.

Message: 1272
Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: zak
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 11:05:24

        You are right - " no high school student with half a mind is going
to voluntarily make him/herself a mental puppet that sucks up ....."
        What about the students that do not have 1/2 a mind?
        What about the students who do have a 1/2 a mind and do not
voluntarily make themselves a mental puppet and, in doing so, must submit to
public ridicule in front of their friends in class by the teacher?
        What about the Kindergarden childeren?
        What about the 1st - 8th graders who are subjected to the same
federal public experimental school programs that the high schoolers are?

Message: 1273
Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: zak
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 11:08:04

        Who said anything about the PUHD paying bonuses .......
The local school systems are.
The local school systems want the bucks handed out by the federal governemt.

Message: 1274
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: school/kids
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 12:27:26

I just had two kids go through the Scottsdale school system. One of them
brings all their problems to us, the other is independent as all get out.
The school system had nothing to do with that. They are just two different
people who need to be treated differently.

Message: 1275
Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Roger/last
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 15:41:09

        You must have taken an active interest in your children's school
curriculum and in the school board. It is nice to hear a parent state as
confidently as you that the school system had absolutly no influence on your
children as they were growing up.
        

Message: 1276
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Saney/1275
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 16:12:47

I didn't say that the system had absolutely no influence. I said that I
thought that the children's personalities and parents have a larger effect.
Of course, you have to get off your duff and get interested in your kids,
go to school functions, talk to teachers, talk to your kids about school.

Zak's FILm & Video Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 606
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: Trivia
Subject: Daryl
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 02:02:14

Yo, Daryl.  Have you seen The Last Temptation of Christ?  I am interested in
finding out if you even know what you are talking about.

Message: 607
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: religious stuff
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 02:05:28

I don't mind religious talk on "my" sig.  As long as eventually (as in
within a week or two) it comes back to films and videos.
 
By the way...
 
     Jesus never had sex.
     Jesus never masturbated.
     Jesus never had a wet dream.
     Jesus never thought about women in a sexual way.
     Jesus didn't have sexual urges.
     Jesus didn't have any urges.
     Jesus was morally superior in every way.
     Hallelujah.

Message: 608
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Komedy
Subject: Zakey Baby/last
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 07:02:31

So, when are you opening your chruch? I'd go. -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 609
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Komedy
Subject: Jesus
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 12:48:37

No wonder he didn't mind dying young.

Message: 610
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Jack Flash...
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 13:43:53

        Thanks for the answer on 'The Handmaid's Tale' by Margaret Atwood.
I assume you then have read the book?  Have you seen the movie?  The movie
for us left so many unanswerd questions, we are hopeing the book will fill
in the gaps....  As to what went wrong in 'Gilead'.

                                cliff-

Message: 611
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: The SysOp Speaks
Subject: This SIG
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 13:47:24

        I thought this was a 'FILm and Video' SIG....  It is looking more
like a 'Religion' sig???  Do you wish me to rename it?  If not, move that
religion talk elsewhere.

                                *=* the 'Mighty' Apollo SYSOP *=*

Message: 612
Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Jack/Atwood
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 15:48:21

        Thanks Mr. Flash!
For some reason the name Margaret Atwood sounds familiar. I am going down to
the book stores at Metro Center and look up some of the books she has
written. I want to read 'The Handmaid's Tale'; I found the movie intriguing.

Message: 613
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Filmography
Subject: s,l,and v
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 16:23:43

I called Wherehouse - it will be out on the 25th.  YEAH!!
I would suggest a GT but there is already the shoot-out GT on the 28th, and
I have a final project to work on while I am working on another production
this week (Billy's Iguana which is really weird.  Peter P, if you're out
there, you should go see it.  It's only 2 bucks at the Lyceum 965-6447).
 
Wow it's 2
2
2 plugs in one!

Message: 614
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: In Living Color
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 21:49:29

The first two episodes were hilarious.  The "Wrath of Farrakhan" Star Trek
skit was particularly amusing.

Message: 615
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Rod/605
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 23:06:55

First of all, Rod, given that the first four books of the New Testament are
a record of Jesus' earthly life, and given that a relationship like that
would be a very important part of Jesus' life, then it most certainly would
have been recorded at least ONCE by Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John.
 
Secondly, for Mary of Magdala to be Jesus' lover would mean that Jesus would
have committed adultery in the process, which is a sin. But the Bible
clearly speaks of Jesus as having no sin.
 
There is evidence in the Bible of Mary of Magdala being a follower of Jesus.
There is no evidence in the Bible of Mary of Magdala being Jesus' mistress.
Given the evidence on one side, and lack of evidence on the other side, how
can you attempt to even debate the issue further?
 
When a prostitute was brought to Jesus for the purpose of{ judging her
sinfulness, he rebuked her accusers by saying "Let he who is without sin
cast the first stone." After they all dropped their stones and left, Jesus
did not condemn her, but said "GO AND SIN NO MORE." I'm sure Mary of
Magdala, having once been a prostitute, knew Jesus' position on the matter.
 
Too many people perceive "love" as having only one definition (i.e., the
sexual act). How wonderful to truly know the many different types of love!

Message: 616
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Zak
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 23:08:33

I must admit, Zak, no, I have not seen the movie. I have read significant
portions of the script verbatim, however. If you would be willing to cover
the cost of rental, perhaps I would take a look at it.

Message: 617
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Zak/607
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 23:17:05

Zak, I found it interesting to notice, that five of your seven sentences
about Jesus involved sex or sexual urges. I find it interesting that so many
on here seem to be so interested in the sexual life (or lack, thereof) of
Jesus. Jesus felt temptation to sin (his human nature) but never submitted
to it (his Deity). Christ had a much more important mission in this world
than to "pop a few babes."
 
I also find it interesting to see the incredulousness of some of the users
when facing the issue of Jesus' sinlessness. Yes, he was human. He could be
tempted. But he was also the fullness of Deity dwelling in bodily form. He
could resist completely where others could only fail repeatedly, because of
his Deity.

Message: 618
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Cliff.../this SIG
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 23:20:10

An attempt was made to move this discussion to the PUBlic SIG, and it
failed. Apparently the users are perfectly happy discussing the topics at
hand here. But I guess when the sysop has spoken, the sysop has spoken, eh?
 
Perhaps you guys could move this conversation over to the PUBlic SIG. My
$tatus runs out in about 9 days, and I won't be able to continue reading
your posts on here after that.

Message: 619
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Jeff/Living Color
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 23:21:57

I found the first show rather lacking. I missed the second show. I'll try to
catch the next one.
 
Does anyone here watch "Whose Line Is It Anyway?" on 8?

Late Night Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 1780
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Steve(n)
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 02:10:01

     Let me get this straight:

     Brophy is a great school.  Brophy representatives told you that it was
the 2nd or 4th best school in the nation.  You suspect that they are lying
about this, though.  
     Why would a great school lie about itself?

Message: 1781
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Night-Life
Subject: Rod
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 03:50:16

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

Message: 1782
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Last
Date: 04/24/90  Time: 00:17:34

Speaking in tongues again ol boy ?

Message: 1783
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Chit-Chat
Subject: Zak / $50.00
Date: 04/24/90  Time: 00:20:07

You'd do that for Fifty bucks eh?
Well now, that might be worth it considering the News Station would
undoubtably pay me $50.00 for the scoop before hand...and the
profits from selling the video to every sleeze hole in the
valley would most likely pay my way through a house renovation...
But alas.... I have morals...and they're making me bankrupt!
 
;-)
 
SPOILER: Plant tongue firmly in cheek.

Public & Free Bulletin Board command:$C

Message: 64944
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Daryl/turnabout
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 03:02:41

     Yes, there were Christians around during Arizona's early settlement
days.  But they really aren't a unique aspect of Arizona culture, are they? 
Whereas the Indians...I need go no further, because I assume you have a
good idea what the difference is.

Message: 64945
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Daryl
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 03:04:15

     So basically, you turned to Christianity because you were desperate for
something to fill the voids in your life.  This void-filling phase in your
life seems to also be marked by your attainment of a mate.  Tell us, was she
already a Christian - did she influence your decision?  Don't worry, I'm not
trying to put you down for anything, I just want to know what the pattern
was.
 
     Ever been to the Door?  I haven't, but I've heard a lot about it. 
There are a bunch of Christian converts there who have testimonies to force
on you:  "Before I became a Christian, I was a drug addict and a fornicator,
I stole and lied and was most unseemly," they tell you.  And then they were
converted, and poof! look at them now -- honest, credible, mentally stable. 
This doesn't just apply to Christianity, it applies to all religions, from
New Age to Mormon to the NAM-MYOHO-RENGHE-KYO chant fanatics.  Whenever
I let myself be verbally poured upon by these people, a common question
enters my mind:  "Are there any of you who *weren't* losers before you
entered the religion?"
     
     People who are suicidal usually have a single common reason for their
feeling:  no feeling of self-worth.  One antidote is family, friends, or a
group of supporters, i.e. LOVE.  And if no love is present, the creative
human mind has a special way to survive -- make it up.  Make up an invisible
entity (a childhood invisible friend, for example, or maybe...God) to fill
that void.  God loves everybody, including you.  It's a nice delusion.

Message: 64946
Author: $ Zak Woodruff
Category: Religion
Subject: Maranatha Ministries
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 03:26:38

     Here's a little story about something that happened to me.
 
     I used to attend Bible study meetings during my freshman year at the
UofA.  My dormitory had weekly meetings and I felt the need, even though I
didn't believe in it, to know more about the Bible.  The guy who ran the
meetings was pretty amiable, and was always interested in talking to me
about God and stuff.  We had a few really good conversations about our
beliefs, some of them heated.  He invited me to sit in on one of his
church's sermons.  He belonged to Marantha Ministries.  I took the offer.
      So I went to Marantha.  Everybody was pleasant.  They had a rockin'
little band and my Christian friend played the drums.  A slick pastor
rhetoricized and quoted the bible and it was a usual church type of thing.
      Then he started talking about "some people...in our audience
tonight...who haven't been saved, but want to be."  He pointed to a section
of the audience I was in.  Wow, I thought, I didn't even suspect that the
people I was sitting among were not Christians, because they seemed pretty
comfortable and "into it."
     The preacher went on.  He talked about Jesus, and then urged all the
not-yet-saveds to come up to the elevated stage where he was and accept the
Lord.  Slowly, everbody in my section came up, smiling, ready to form a big
hug with the pastor.  Everybody, and I'm talking about 20 other
people...except me.  I sat, alone, the only one who didn't want to be saved.
I felt like such an outcast.  Looking back, I think that perhaps they had
contrived the whole thing and were purposely trying to manipulate me.

     Anyway, I went home with my bible-study friend, and he seemed somewhat
disappointed.  I felt pretty weird about the whole thing; I felt like a
whole room of people had put the pressure on me to make a decision and I had
let them down.  It doesn't feel too good to be alone.
     I guess that's why atheists, like any other type of people, stick
together sometimes.
 
     Now that I think about it, I resent the tactics places like Marantha
use to get people to join.  They are really playing on people's weaknesses,
on their desire to be accepted.  That's not right.  
 
     Well, that's my story.

Message: 64948
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Answer!
Subject: "nothing worship"
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 03:37:53

Excellent idea.  I freely admit that I worship nothing (except, of course,
my magnificently bronzed Adonis-like body).

Message: 64949
Author: $ Jeff Beck
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Peter Gabriel
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 03:42:20

I still love "Games Without Frontiers."  I finally found a used album with
the track on it, and a lyric sheet was included.  There is a line which
repeats the title of the song, in french: "Jeux sans frontieres."  I won't
tell you what I had mistaken this as for many years; it's too embarassing.

Message: 64950
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: James Hawley
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 06:26:39

So then, Peter Gabriel 'saved' you? -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 64951
Author: $ Ann Oudin
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Daryl on Rod
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 06:39:02

Why do you consider that everything Rod says is 'Christian' bashing?? Is not
what you are saying to him 'Athiest' bashing or bashing in general?? As far
as I can see, he is simply, in clear concise words stating what he believes
in as much as you are. It seems to me that your feelings, uncomfort
regarding the subject are a tad uncalled for. Both of you are posting good
stuff - no need for name calling. If he disagrees with you regarding time
for instance, when you have a come back, it isn't 'time' bashing is it? So
why does this have to apply when you discuss Christianity? -=*) ANN (*=-

Message: 64952
Author: Mike Gunderloy
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Reviews
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 07:26:50

From the latest issue of my magazine, _Factsheet Five_:

Mychele, BREAK WAY ($3 from PO Box 1892, Tempe, AZ 85280-1892):  A
collection of relationship poems and scary life poems.  Mychele hints
around her subject, but there's a sense of control lost and later
regained, of a life crumbling and reassembled.  Careful words and airy
images.

Mychele, SURVIVORS ($1 from PO Box 1892, Tempe, AZ 85280-1892):  A
collection of poetry and short prose that Mychele wrote while in high
school--a time which was the worst of her life.  There are bleak
suicidal poems here, insterspersed with rebelliousness and the
occasional ray of hope.  This book exists to tell other young people to
find a way to get through it, and that there are people who will listen;
a good message to repeat.

Mychele, LOVING THYSELF ($1, etc.):  Erotica which lots of people are
going to find hot in its simplicity.  It's basically a two-page
description of masturbation to orgasm, lovingly written and very warm.

Mychele, THE TANNING BED ($3, etc.):  A short story that goes from
reality to fantasy to reality back again.  Rather erotic stuff, from the
female point of view.  The ending is a bit surprising and leaves the
reader free to fantasize off the page.

Message: 64953
Author: Mike Gunderloy
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Audio reviews!
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 07:47:39

From the same issue:
 
HERNIA RETRACTION ACCORDION, "Choking on the Fumes" ($4.99 from Peter
Petrisko, Jr., PO Box 56942, Phoenix, AZ 85079): "Sonic experimentalism"
from a batch of folks in the Phoenix area. They overlay their synthesizers
with booming text pieces and found sounds, apparently striving towards a
feeling of impending doom. It works well, especially on pieces like
"Porn-O-Rama" and "Ashes to Ashes". Sampling in the service of insanity
rather than simply expropriation.

Message: 64954
Author: $ Roger Mann
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Daryl on Religion
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 08:10:12

It's funny, but I had the completely reverse experience. I was raised in
a fundamentalist Baptist church, and until I freed myself to doubt and
to realize that I wasn't going to hell because I had those doubts, I was
one miserable screwed up fundy.

Message: 64955
Author: $ Gary Jones
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Repairs
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 09:23:11

I am some-what underwhelmed with the response from "Solarwatt" listed in the
Apollo services.  Does anyone know of a place I can get a power supply for
an oddball PC fixed.  I can't even get this guy to give me an appointment to
look at it.

                                                   ****  Gary   ****

Message: 64956
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Last
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 11:26:54

Bring the power supply to him then! 

Message: 64957
Author: $ Melissa Dee
Category: Question?
Subject: Mike G
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 13:05:48

I thought you lived in New York.  Boy am I confused.

Message: 64958
Author: $ Dean Hathaway
Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
Subject: Shootout
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 14:42:13

Yes, I am in favor of having the Shoot-out at the same place as the last
one. That was just south of the Carefree Highway where it curves as you come
east from the Black Canyon Freeway. There are dirt roads turning off to the
south ther{ and{we congregated along the big wash there just out of sight of
the main road.  Saturday morning around nine sounds good to me, how about
everyone else? Everyone is welcome.
  See You Later,
    Dean H.

Message: 64959
Author: $ Sandy SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: GT/last
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 16:06:57

        For those of you who feel you might be able to spot the turn off on
Carefree Highway, turn off the Interstate and park on the South-East corner
of the interchange. I will stop in there and ask any vehicles that happen to
be there if they are going to the Apollo GT. If I get no response from the
vehicles, I will ask the occupants of said vehicles.
        9:00 sounds fine. Try to be early if you want to be escorted in.

Message: 64960
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: In search of
Subject: Thornbob?
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 16:33:52

        Where is he?

                        cliff-

Message: 64961
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Answer!
Subject: Gary / PC Pwr Supply
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 16:41:29

I'll take a gander at it.
Leave me your infor in mail and we'll chat.

Message: 64962
Author: $ Gordon Little
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: $tatus
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 18:04:48

Thanks for the welcome, Cliff!

     - Gordon

Message: 64963
Author: $ Apollo SYSOP
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Mike on Gary
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 21:27:13

        Gary was to call Bob on Sunday...  He did, but only tried ONCE. Bob
was on a job...but was home MOST of the day.  Bob had hoped he would call
several times.... Bob got in touch with me today for the Phone number where
he could reach Gary.... and I *think* it is all settled now.

        Hopefully, we will see the 'Bear' back on line soon!

                                cliff-

Message: 64964
Author: Michael Kielsky
Category: Get-Togethers (GTs)
Subject: When & Where finally
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 22:23:00

OK, it seems, if I may summarize, that we'll meet around 9am on Saturday, at
the South-East corner of the Carefree-Highway / I-17 interchange.  May I
bring a friend, who is well-armed and interested?

What kind of firearms are people bringing?  Rifles, shotguns, handguns?

Michael Kielsky "I'm the NRA" -unpolitically speaking, anyone want to join?

Message: 64965
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: James/64939
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 23:27:21

That is your opinion, and you are stuck with it.

Message: 64966
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Zak/64944
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 23:35:40

But you are still playing favorites. What's so important about a painting of
a Hopi religious ceremony, when a painting of a Hopi village and it's people
would represent it's heritage?

Message: 64967
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Zak/Maranatha
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 23:47:25

But then again, perhaps it was honest and you were just paranoid. Not that I
would have suggested that you "follow the crowd" and "get saved." I don't
believe in the "accept Jesus" movement. Jesus calls and accepts us, we don't
"accept" Him. The only action we can take credit for in our spiritual life
would be the decision to reject Him. (Trust me, it's Scriptural.)
 
You don't just suddenly get up and say, "Ok, like, I'm gonna like believe in
Jesus now," and *zap* you're a believer. Why do you understand grass to be
green? Because you see it with your physical eyes. You could say to
yourself all you wanted "Ok, I'm gonna believe that grass is blue now," but
I seriously doubt that you are going to believe it just because you said it.
 
It works the same way with God. You don't just say a few words to "get"
saved. It's through the grace of God that one's SPIRITUAL eyes are opened to
understand and believe. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. It is then, and
only then, that one can truly believe. God offers His Spirit to all people,
though many make the choice to reject it's work in their lives.

That is why I don't feel that someone should be pressured into making a
"decision" to "believe" or "accept" Christ. One should read (I mean
SERIOUSLY read, not just pick out those few out-of-context passages that
atheists like to toss around) the Bible. It is through the words of God that
faith grows. Not any human decision.

Message: 64968
Author: $ Daryl Westfall
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Ann on Me on Rod
Date: 04/23/90  Time: 23:51:57

I do not have a problem with Rod expressing his opinions. It is the
belittling attitude in which he chooses to present them that I take issue
with. I'm sure that Rod is able to make his viewpoint known without using
such colorful terms as "makes me wanna puke." The point is that he chooses
NOT to, at least on the subject of religion.

Message: 64969
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Answer!
Subject: Last two
Date: 04/24/90  Time: 00:00:46

Very Well put.

Message: 64970
Author: $ Mike Carter
Category: Answer!
Subject: GT + Friends
Date: 04/24/90  Time: 00:09:21

I don't believe anyone has forbidden people bringing friends.
I am bringing a neighbor who also happens to be well armed and
has his FFL. (I've picked up two guns from him for good prices!)
Lesse...
I'll be bringing the usual and a couple other weapons besides.
If you're interested in what I will be bringing, you'll find out when
you get there. I don't believe in open topic on my artillery.
 
Sounds to me like it's set then. We'll all be meeting at the corner
of I-17 and Carefree Highway, right where the little mini pull off
area is...I seem to recall that area always has folks meeting there...
and some vendors as well.
We'll be bringing a stand-up target frame. Anyone who might have some
metal plates might wanna drill a couple holes near one side so that
some wire may be passed through them to support it in the frame.
It's great for pistol shooting because it makes an umistakable
"CLANG-O" when you bop it.
        
I'd say the ideal size for the plates is no larger than 8"x8" or
a 8" dia metal plate. The ones we have are kinda "shot" ;-) but
we'll bring 'em anyway.

Message: 64971
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Chit Chat
Subject: Tee-shirt slogans
Date: 04/24/90  Time: 01:56:52

The following slogans have been accepted and the people responsible will
receive 25 cents per sold shirt, off the top.

"God Bless My Gun & Pit Bull"  -D. Westfall (perhaps now you can renew your
$tatus.)

"I am woman, hear me bitch."   -Melissa Dee (perhaps you can retire in
luxury)

"Taxation without representation is tyranny, taxation with representation
ain't so hot either."  -Z. Woodruff  (perhaps you will be shot)

Jeff Beck's entry, "Steal this tee-shirt and strike a blow against
capitalism", is a damn good expression and although it would look just great
in stores, what happens after it is purchased?

Gordon Little's, "Don't edit reality for the sake of simplicity" is good but
there are not enough intellectuals around to make it profitable.

I would suggest that other submissions were submitted.  When we get enough
of your money we will head for the border, eh.

Thanks.

Message: 64972
Author: $ Rod Williams
Category: Religion
Subject: Cheek-in-tongue, eh!
Date: 04/24/90  Time: 01:57:45

Zak is lucky because if he were around during the Inquisition and didn't
accept Jesus, he'd be dead right now.  Come to think of it, he'd be dead
anyway.  Never mind.

If he had stood in a public square and professed that the world was really
not the center of the universe he'd be burned at the stake.

Yes, the roots of Jesus worship do have their moments.  And I remember so
well the roots and beginnings of atheism, yes indeed.  It was all these
non-believers torturing anyone who accepted Jesus.  It was horrible, the
blood, the gore.

Well, as I always say, look to the roots of an organization.  Secrecy,
fear, torture, death, banishment...yeetch.

Thus far Jesus hasn't phoned me but since I got the new U.S. West answering
service I'm sure I won't miss His call.  And I guess God is mad at me
because He hasn't phoned either.  Funny, I'm sure my number is listed.

And I did, at one time, read the Christian Bible seriously.  At least
Captain Marvel Comic Books have continuity.   -Rod