AppleLink APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG March 21, 1989 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time Topic: Programming Utilities and Environments Forum Leader: James Luther (AFL Jim) AFL Jim Howdy AFL Dyfet Hello Jim! HazelH1 Hi guys Dave Lyons (No parentheses needed, Joe. :-) Matt DTS You guys should have seen Mr. Luther today reconstructing our offices like a real pro... AFA Gary J Hi Jim! AFL Dyfet Oh my... Dave Lyons _My_ TNs haven't arrived.... Matt DTS ...makes me wonder if maybe he missed his calling (or at least one of them). JSchober Yeah, but aesthetics, Dave. :) BTW, I sent a mild nasty-gram on info-apple JSchober about your comment that I don't like ShareWare. :) AFL Jim :P Matt AFL Marty Hi Jim Dave Lyons (If you want aestehtics, use "true" instead of "1=1" :-) AFL Marty [[[Hazel]]] Matt DTS (Did you get that done, anyway? Did you pile all the garbage in Dave's office like we said?) HazelH1 HI Marty :) JSchober LOL... hey, good point, Dave! Forgot THAT... (not like I use it often or JSchober anything...) AFL Jim Dave, I'm still giving passing out constant reminders that we need the March AFL Jim Tech Notes in text files. JSchober Hi Bill... Lombar I've never been in here before, what's the etiquette like? Dave Lyons What's this...do I have an office? BillP Hi Joe HazelH1 Howdy Bill! Matt DTS They still have to be converted by hand, and they just haven't been done yet. AFA Gary J Welcome, Lombar. Matt DTS Dave: Yeah, but you don't wanna go in it yet... Dave Lyons What etiquette? :) BillP Hi Hazel! Been a long time! AFL Dyfet Welcome aboard Lombar... AFL Marty Down the hall Dave.... to the left.... tile walls, tile floor :) Lombar Thanx. AFL Jim Well, let's get started here... Matt DTS or there... AFA John Hi Hazel! Dave Lyons :) Matt DTS (Sorry - I'm in /behave mode now...) Lombar :) AFL Jim Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum! Tonight, our topic is programming AFL Jim utilities and programming environments. We'll follow forum protocol, so if you AFL Jim have a question, type a question mark on a line by itself. If you have a AFL Jim comment on the current topic, type an exclamation point on a line by itself. AFL Jim We'll keep track of who asked to speak first and call on you when it's your AFL Jim turn. Parik Dude ? AFA Gary J Q = Parik Matt DTS [I hate software] AFL Jim To start off with, I'd like to introduce my replacement here on AppleLink (yes AFL Jim I'm leaving the ranks of AFLs). Starting in April, the new Forum Leader will AFL Jim be Dave Sugar! AFA Gary J Welcome, Dave!! Matt DTS AFL Jim Say Hi, Dave. Parik Dude Hi, Dave. AFL Dyfet Thank you! I hope to keep things smooth during the change... Dave Lyons Hi, Dave. JSchober Hi, Dave! (Dave L, stop talking to yourself...) AFL Dyfet Dave's recursive Parik Dude What's Dyfet mean? (not my question :) Matt DTS If you need anything from DTS, be sure to ask us so we can ignore you as equally as we did Jim. JSchober heheh AFL Marty (recursive = swears repeatedly) BillP :) AFL Dyfet Older form of David....so I wouldn't get confused with a certain other Dave :) AFL Jim I'll be here still, but in an unofficial capacity. Parik Dude unofficial capacitance is the best. BillP me too :) AFL Jim You mean MacDave, Dave?? AFA Gary J :) AFL Dyfet MacDave! :) Another one! Matt DTS I can see how "AFL Sugar" might lead to some weird E-mail, that's true. JSchober LOL Matt... AFL Jim Let's get on to the questions... Parik, I believe you are first in the queue. AFL Jim GA AFL Dyfet :) Lombar I hate to sound impatient, especially for a newcomer, but my VISA doesn't Parik Dude In the AUT forum, in INITs library a file that "speeds up text output by alot. Lombar stretch very far... AFA Gary J (Looks like Matt has a bug in his "behave mode" :) Parik Dude Has anyone used this? Is it a RAM driver? Just got it today, and wondering Parik Dude what it does. I think Orca was fassst... Parik Dude think = thought (but I still think) ga AFA Gary J Q = Parik AFL Jim I haven't seen it. Anyone else? Matt DTS ! AFL Jim GA Matt Matt DTS No. JSchober ! (shuffling up as AUT rep...) AFL Jim GA Joe Matt DTS It could be an INIT that speeds up QuickDraw text drawing, not actual text screen I/O... Matt DTS ...but I think I'll let Joe talk. GA JSchober It patches into the Pascal text-screen (80 col... well, I guess 40 col, too, AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Joe) JSchober if you wanted) Text Toolset. I don't know WHAT it does to that toolset, but JSchober anything that uses Text Tools on a Pascal driver goes like greased lightning. JSchober ORCA and APW seem to have the best improvements. I haven't noticed any Matt DTS I can *guess*... AFL Dyfet ! JSchober compatibility problems or anything like that. GA... AFL Jim Dave, GA AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Dave) AFL Dyfet How does it compare to the GS/OS console driver? AFL Jim (Matt, you can type an !, too) Dave Lyons ! Matt DTS ! (Oh, I thought my last ! was still active. My mistake) AFL Jim Joe, comparison?? JSchober It's faster, Dave. It's REAAAL fast. Short bugger (4 blks), too. JSchober AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Dave L, Matt) AFL Jim Dave Lyons, GA AFL Jim (and I think I'll start using Dyfet :) Dave Lyons We're talking about Paul Elseth's FASTEXT init, right? JSchober (just type "Dyfet" 20 times fast...) JSchober Righto, Dave. Dave Lyons If you wanna know what it does...it replaces a few functions in the Text Tools: Dave Lyons specifically Dave Lyons Just a sec: AFP Draco Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet Dyfet JSchober (that was 16 times and slow... ;) AFL Dyfet ! Matt DTS We now return to our program. Dave Lyons Geez...printer jammed. Anyway, it replaces WriteCString and WriteString, Dave Lyons mostly, and it checks for the special case of printing to slot 3 with no Dave Lyons the firmware separately for each character. I keep it installed all the time-- AFA Gary J Ooops Dave Lyons speeds things up a lot. (done) Parik Dude ? (another question) AFL Jim Matt, GA AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Matt, Dyfet) AFA Gary J Q + Parik Matt DTS Since the Text Tools are mainly an arbiter, they pass everything along to the firmware, when some... Matt DTS ...of the stuff might be doable a little faster, as this init shows. The speed increase is quite... Matt DTS ...nice, but we still recommend that programmers use the Console driver because it's not... Matt DTS ...slot dependent. (See GS/OS TN #4 for more details, I think.) GA. AFL Jim Dyfet, GA AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Dyfet), Parik AFL Dyfet It seems DL and Matt just answered both parts of my question/statement! GA Parik Dude Has anyone here actually GOT Merlin 16+? I'm looking for something that is Matt DTS Ha! We got him! Hazing has begun! Parik Dude like Orca/M but a faster assembler & linker... ga DennisDoms ! AFL Jim Somebody?? Anybody? GA Dennis Lombar ? Parik Dude (don't say "No" again Matt... :) DennisDoms `I've got it; I wouldn't claim to know it well yet. Dave Lyons ! AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Dennis, Dave), Lombar DennisDoms It does have provisions for importing ORCA files (HodgePodge is used... AFL Jim Done Dennis?? AFL Jim oops DennisDoms as an example of a conversion). DennisDoms GA (Done...typing "blind" :). Dave Lyons I've got it too, but haven't used it a lot. If you're looking for something a AFL Jim GA Dave Dave Lyons _little_ bit faster, Merlin 16+ is not what you want. It's a LOT faster. :) Parik Dude :) JSchober heheh Dave Lyons (Whoops...you didn't even say "a little." There I go making a minimal amount Parik Dude thanks, GA Dave Lyons of sense again...oh, well.) done. AFL Jim How's linking to other languages? Dave Lyons ! AFL Jim GA Dave Dave Lyons It can be done, but it's an extra step, I think--normally it doesn't generate Dave Lyons OMF files, but it's an option. Dave Lyons (done) AFA Gary J Q = Parik (Dave), Lombar AFL Jim GA with your question, Lombar Lombar I've just ordered ORCA/M. I like the reviews on the ORCA products, but admit Lombar ignorance..... Lombar I want one shell to eventually do everything. Can I add, say, the Merlin AFP Draco ? Lombar assembler to the ORCA shell and use the ORCA pascal? Matt DTS ! AFA Gary J Q = Lombar (Matt), Kent AFL Jim I don't think you can add Merlin to the APW or ORCA environment unless Glen AFL Jim Bredon has really changed him design :) AFL Jim GA Matt Lombar It's been four years since I did any compiler-type programming.... DONE AFL Jim Him = His Matt DTS Merlin is one of the three IIgs compilers or assemblers you can NOT add to the ORCA shell... Matt DTS (the other two being MPW IIgs Assembler and MPW IIgs C :-) However, you have the concept right... AFA Gary J :) Matt DTS ...in that multiple languages may be added to ORCA or APW and all used under one shell. It's just... Matt DTS ...that Merlin is not available in a version that runs under the ORCA/APW shell. It has it's own. Matt DTS GA. Lombar ? AFL Jim GA Lombar AFA Gary J Q = Lombar, Kent AFL Jim (you still have the floor) Lombar Is it best to use all one brand of product line, or is it fairly safe to Lombar mix and match without worrying about compatabilities? AFL Jim You're fairly safe mixing one high level language with assembly, but you AFL Jim may run into some problems if you try to mix two high level languages such as AFL Jim Pascal and C (or for that matter, ORCA Pascal and TML Pascal). AFL Jim GA Lombar I thought that according to what I read about the TML/ORCA shells, you could Lombar mix and match C, Pascal, and Assy. without any problems. Anyone have exper- Lombar ience with this? AFL Jim You can, but.... AFL Jim The high level languages all use slightly different ways of passing parameters AFL Jim and may depend on certain global routines and variables to be present at run- Lombar Okay, I get it. I'll just forge ahead and stick with one brand of environ. AFL Jim time. You have to really know what the languages are doing at a fairly low AFL Jim level to make them talk to each other. Matt DTS ! AFA Gary J Q = Lombar (Matt), Kent AFL Jim assembly is the common denominator. AFL Jim GA Matt Lombar I'm done for now. Thanks. Matt DTS For this purpose, you can consider APW and ORCA to be the "same environment"; to wit: Matt DTS You can use APW C or the "APW version" of TML Pascal with the ORCA system with no problems. GA. Lombar One more question... AFL Jim Kent, GA with your question... Matt DTS (uh-oh. Question contention) AFP Draco no let him have it AFL Jim OK, GA Lombar AFA Gary J Q = Lombar, Kent Lombar I only have 512K :(. Are there any pascal compilers I can use besides Apple's Lombar I want to stick with a desktop environ AFL Dyfet ! AFA Gary J ! AFA Gary J Q = Lombar (Dyfet), Kent AFL Jim Nope, TML requires 768K and ORCA requires a Meg I think. AFL Jim GA Dyfet AFL Dyfet I would suggest TML, which has a full desktop environment, but, as mentioned, AFL Dyfet it requires 768K...GA Lombar OK. GA Kent. AFP Draco Thanks... I wanted to change to subject a little. AFP Draco Dyfet (Dave): What's the latest word on COMMAND.COM? When (if ever) will we see an upgrade? AFL Dyfet ! AFL Jim GA Dyfet AFA Gary J Q = Kent (Dyfet) AFL Jim :) AFL Dyfet No, I didn't bribe Kent for that question :). Well, we have taken Command.COM AFL Dyfet back from PinPoint, and we will be re-releasing Command.COM 'release II', with AFP Draco I LOVE Command.COM, that's why I asked. AFL Dyfet all the goodies we have and with Xterm 2.0 as a complete package. For those Matt DTS ! ("We" = ?) AFL Dyfet unclear as to what Command.COM is, it is a programmable shell and AFL Dyfet communications environment for ProDOS 8 with MANY features and over 200 command AFL Dyfet programs. (done...I think...:) AFL Jim Dyfet, WE = ?? AFL Dyfet Oh, sorry, that would be WE as in HyperDyne Software... AFL Jim Dave, would you like to tell us what else HyperDyne is up to? AFL Jim (giving you this las chance to soapbox it before you do it and look like a AFL Dyfet Sure. HDS is putting out Bbasic // for the Apple // (ProDOS 8 based) also, and AFL Jim self promoter :) AFL Marty (BBasic???) JSchober <=== unbiased, too! AFL Dyfet we will have a number of surprises (GS specific) by the end of the year. HDS AFL Jim HDS = Hyper Dave Sugar AFL Dyfet also has an add-on toolkit for Command.COM. Bbasic // is an enhanced Basic AFP Draco Dave - will you be posting some of your COM files soon? AFL Marty (must be too much sugar in his diet :) AFL Dyfet programming environment. It's fully structured, has better disk and graphics AFP Draco (( Despite rumors to the contrary, Sugar Daddy is NOT dave's father! )) AFA Gary J heheh AFL Dyfet support, and in many ways extends Applesoft into a very useful environment. AFL Marty :) DwightW1 how does bbasic compare with tml basic? AFL Dyfet In regards to COM programs (in regards to Kent's comment), most everything we JSchober ! AFA Gary J Q = (Joe) AFL Dyfet have will be included already with release II of Command.COM. (done???) AFL Jim GA Joe JSchober I figure Dave could use outside comments. ;) BBasic sits there and pretends JSchober it's Applesoft -- until you start programming, you can't tell it's not. But JSchober it offers all sorts of commands -- kinda like the GS toolbox in BASIC; that's JSchober the best way I can think of to describe it. (Although, unless I really missed JSchober something, it does =not= support the GS specially; it's 128K //e c GS...) GA! JSchober :) AFL Jim Dwight, does that explain thing OK? AFL Dyfet (good try...most of our products seem to defy easy description :) DwightW1 yes JSchober :) Well, that's true... ;) AFL Jim Well, the queue is empty.... Does anyone have anything new to bring up this AFL Jim week? Dave Lyons MIDI? Matt DTS (oh, God...) Dave Lyons I managed to play a note yesterday. :-) AFL Jim GA Dave JSchober ()()() AFL Marty C# Dave Lyons The Toolbox Reference Update info is incomplete, but along with JSchober No, no, Bb, Marty! Sheesh... Dave Lyons the System Disk 3.2 release notes and Jim Mensch's article in Dec 88 Call- AFA Gary J Coming soon - to a shareware board near you... Dave Lyon's "Nifty Tunes"! JSchober ROTFL Gary! Dave Lyons A.P.P.L.E., I think it's all there. AFL Dyfet ! DaviesDoug yah Lombar --all done in C# AFL Jim GA Dyfet AFL Marty Loony Tunes? AFA Gary J :) AFL Dyfet I was swamped in flashes...I just wanted to add that if anyone would like AFL Dyfet further info on HDS products, feel free to leave me a mail message with your AFL Dyfet address and I will see the person I have that does HDS mailings now gets it... AFL Dyfet (done with commercial) JSchober "And now... Purina Cat Chow." AFL Marty Tim!! AFL TimB Marty!! JSchober (Howdy, Tim!) AFL Jim Hi Tim AFL Jim Tim, I was about to mention your conference this week, but I'll let you do it. AFL Jim GA Tim AFL TimB OK! DwightW1 ? AFA Gary J Q = Tim, Dwight Matt DTS (How con-VEEEE-nient) AFL TimB Tomorrow at the Apple // Music and Sound Forum at 10pm EST we'll be ... AFL TimB introducing Matt Denman, Apple Sound Tool programmer extraordinaire!.... AFL TimB We'll also be giving away THREE HOURS of AppleLink - PE time to the person... Dave Lyons Uh oh, we're in treble now.... AFL TimB who asks (in my opinion) the best question. JSchober ::bad pun alert, Dave Lyons!:: Matt DTS (I'm gonna thrash that boy when he gets here...) AFL TimB So be there or be a four equal sized object! AFL Marty Joe... don't harass the staff :) AFA Gary J :) Dave Lyons Take "note" of the prize...don't let anybody "beat" you to it.... AFL TimB (Why's that Mr Matt?) Matt DTS (not Matt, Dave!) AFL TimB (I'm a poet too) AFL Jim OK GA with your question Dwight JSchober Ugh... get Dave OUT of here! ::groan:: DwightW1 dave, i want your 'nifty list' shareware program...and i plan to pay for... Dave Lyons And I'm going to fix the rest of your appliances to blow up on you.... :) AFL Jim (and hush up enveryone else) AFA Gary J Q = Dwight AFL TimB :X THE GIBBER Well....At least the Bass buns are out of the way ;) THE GIBBER oops puns DwightW1 it... so give me the cost and where to send for it please....I NEED IT!! AFL Jim Go Dave... a sale is made. AFL Marty This is your lucky day Dwight! :) AFA Gary J Q = Dwight ($Dave$) Dave Lyons Okay, my address is PO Box 287, North Liberty IA 52317, and Nifty List is AFL Dyfet (and another starving programmer gets supper tonight) Dave Lyons fifteen bucks. If you're in a hurry, download it from ADV or AUT, but you'll Dave Lyons get a disk in any case when I get your bucks. DwightW1 I have no doubt you have put much effort into the production of your ..... AFL Jim or dollars as they're known outside of North Liberty... Dave Lyons (And if you already had Nifty List installed, you could do a screen dump now Dave Lyons instead of writing down that address. :-) AFA Gary J :) AFL Dyfet (Nifty List truelly is) DwightW1 program, so i will send for it prepaid AS ALL PEOPLE THAT WANT SHAREWARE DwightW1 thanks dave Matt DTS (if he already had Nifty List, he wouldn't need to see the address on-line) Dave Lyons (That's true, too.) AFA Gary J He'll have to change the address, now - to California Dave Lyons (Matt thinks Nifty List's user interface is the most user-friendly one in the Dave Lyons Whole World, by the way. :) JSchober hehehe AFL Marty ? DwightW1 let's hope that is not necessary to change addresses AFA Gary J Q = Marty AFL Jim GA Marty AFL Marty How much time will you be spending in the DTS jacuzzi, Dave? :) AFA Gary J Just assign a handle to your address, Dave. DaviesDoug and matt doesn't even like "bill and ted's excellent adventure" so... DaviesDoug he should know Matt DTS ("The testmonial was portrayed by actors and is not intended to imply a true endorsement.") :-) AFL Marty (the hour's up) :) Matt DTS DTS Jacuzzi? Where? JSchober That's true, anyone who would want to use NiftyList would probably be able to JSchober deref a handle... Matt DTS I keep asking for one and Rilla keeps saying "Maybe"... AFL Marty Rilla should learn to share. Matt DTS (we have a sink with a vortex under a hot water tap; does that count?) AFL Dyfet (does Dave now become Dave DTS?) Dave Lyons The jacuzi is where you throw the old GS batteries once they start leaking, Dave Lyons right? JSchober ugh... Matt DTS Sure. Then YOU go sit in it. Dave Lyons Beats me...I may keep my current screen name if that doesn't bother anybody AFL Marty only when occupied :) AFA Gary J That would certainly stir things up! :) JSchober Boy, those three'll make a team, alright. :-) Dave Lyons too terribly much.... AFL Marty The Three Amigos? AFP Draco Dave - I'm afraid we might confuse you with a civilian. Dave Lyons (That way you don't even need to swirl or heat the water w/ outside forces.) JSchober <=== going to die of pun attack in another few seconds... LOL Marty... Matt DTS Dave? Civil? It'll never happen. AFP Draco Joey - Pun stroke? Dave Lyons :) JSchober Righto, Kent. :) ::slump, dead:: Matt DTS "And with a stroke of a pun, the mighty were felled." Matt DTS (I can just see AFL Jim shaking his head and mumbling "I'm almost out! Hee hee hee!") AFP Draco Wil will PUNish them PUNctiaully AFL Scott And now.. straight from the from... Nah.... AFL Jim Well.... thanks for stopping in tonight and remember to stop into the auditori Dave Lyons The pun is mightier than the sored? or something.... AFL Jim um next week when you'll get a change to talk to Tom Weishaar, some editors JSchober LOL.... no, Scott, don't try it... ;) oh my... these =are= deadly... :)) Dave Lyons You could probably confuse me with a simple card trick actually...no Dave Lyons civilians necessary. AFL Jim from Call-A.P.P.L.E. and Nibble. AFL Jim See you there! AFA Gary J ()()()() AFL TimB Moral: Never trust a developer from the mid-west! AFL Jim Good night everyone (I have to run) DwightW1 well, good-bye everybody, and again thanks dave